Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread V - The Fun Continues

[IanBru]

First topic message reminder :

Banter through the ages:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii
https://www.606v2.com/t54519-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iv

Well friends, the pre-season has come and gone, now things get real.

A. Edinburgh Rugby


1. Pre-Season

Edinburgh 10-11 Leicester Tigers
Edinburgh 21-15 Newcastle Falcons

2. Results
Munster 13-14 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 13-14 Connacht
Ospreys 62-13 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 20-20 Scarlets
Ulster 30-0 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 24-10 Newport Gwent Dragons
Bordeaux-Bègles 13-15 Edinburgh

3. Upcoming Fixtures

Friday 24 Oct 2014 - 19:45 (TBC)
Lyon   (H)   -   European Rugby Challenge Cup

B. Glasgow Warriors


1. Pre-Season Results
Glasgow Warriors 23-24 Harlequins
London Scottish 19-38 Glasgow Warriors

2. Results
Glasgow Warriors 22-20 Leinster
Cardiff Blues 12-33 Glasgow Warriors
Newport Gwent Dragons 13-33 Glasgow Warriors
Glasgow Warriors 39 - 21 Connacht
Benetton Treviso 23-40 Glasgow Warriors
Ulster 29-9 Glasgow Warriors


3. Upcoming Fixtures

Sat 18 Oct 2014 - 15:15 (Live on BT Sport 2)
Bath   (H)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Sat 25 Oct 2014 - 18:15 (Live on Sky Sports)
Montpellier Herault   (A)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Any and all discussion of things rugby-related is welcome. Restaurant recommendations are openly sought. Introductions to eligible young people would be fantastic. Bullying, jingoism, and wang-measuring is not on.

We need to move forwards not backwards, upwards not forwards, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

[madmaccas]

The Edinburgh team has been named and includes Stuart Mcinally as a back row replacement. Looks very much like the hooker experiment has been canned. Shame because he's lost a lot of time and we're in need of other hooking options. I think the new scrum laws may have made it harder with him being so tall but on the plus side, with so many injuries, it's good to see him back where he belongs.

[funnyExiledScot]

Edinburgh Rugby team v London Welsh, Sunday 7 December, BT Murrayfield, kick-off 2pm

15 Nick McLENNAN
14 Dougie FIFE
13 Matt SCOTT
12 Andries STRAUSS
11 Tim VISSER

10 Tom HEATHCOTE
9 Grayson HART

1 Rory SUTHERLAND
2 James HILTERBRAND
3 Willem NEL
4 Ollie ATKINS
5 Ben TOOLIS
6 Tomas LEONARDI
7 Roddy GRANT
8 Mike COMAN (Captain)

Substitutes
16 Neil COCHRANE
17 Grant SHIELLS
18 John ANDRESS
19 Anton BRESLER
20 Stuart McINALLY
21 Sam HIDALGO-CLYNE
22 Greig TONKS
23 Sam BEARD

[RDW]

I wouldn't read too much into it just yet - Edinburgh are very short of back row options just now so I suspect it is just needs must.

I know it was partly SJ's idea, but they I can't see them moving him back to back row without even giving him a try at hooker.


https://www.606v2.com/t56732-the-worst-team-in-scotland-v-the-worst-team-in-england

[funnyExiledScot]

Real shame about McInally - total waste of time, and he was never even given a chance. On the plus side it looks like Tonks is still an option at fly half looking at the bench, which is something I'd still like to see given a fair run. Behind Russell I still don't think we have a decent option.

Otherwise it's the team I expected to see. The log jam of Strauss at 12 continues, Coman's epic leadership will be to the fore and Nick McLennan will no doubt hark back to the days of Christian Cullen and team LW apart.

On the plus side, I'm pleased that Sutherland will continue to get a run at loosehead. Delighted as always to see young SQ talent given a chance.

[RDW]

https://www.606v2.com/t56732-the-worst-team-in-scotland-v-the-worst-team-in-england

[funnyExiledScot]

I did wonder why no-one had posted the Edinburgh side on here.....

[Nematode]

Bit random, but does anyone know of any good Scottish Rugby podcasts? Brian Moore is just England, England, ... Scotland for a minute, England, and the Welsh Scrum V one is understandably focused on Wales.

[BigGee]

The Scotland 'A' team could be quite interesting to see who features. You could have (assuming they won't be in the 1st 23):

Reid, MacArthur, Murray, Swinson, Kellock, (Kelly) Brown, Watson, Ashe, SHC, Tonks, Visser, Taylor, Evans, (Tom) Brown, Mccoll

Scotland seem to have adopted the policy, correctly in my opinion, of picking up and coming players in the A team rather than the old lags. I can see the point in this as Ewan Murray, Kelly Brown etc are not going to be particularly excited or motivated for an A team game and it won't teach us anything about them that we don't already know.

A few have made their mark in the recent A games, Hoggy for one, Duncan Taylor as well, who i had never heard of before he played and scored a very quick try. McColl and McGuigan may well be decent picks for that squad, players who may feel that they still have plenty to prove. I think we may well see Toolis and Atkins in there as well, Watson as well if he had not broken his jaw. S H-C I should imagine as well and maybe Scott Steele, though he did not seem to have a good game last weekend. He is holding down a starting spot in the AP though, which is not to be sniffed at.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agree with that BigGee. No point in picking the Ruck Inspector (or Jim Hamilton) for Scotland A, when you could have Toolis or MacKenzie partnering Swinson.

I'd also suggest Fife at 13 rather than the Squashed Goblin.

[TJ]

The bath / Montpelier result should be good for Glasgow? No bonus point for bath and Montpelier out of it so should be easy pickings for 5 points now. Just Toulouse to beat now

[jimbopip]

I'm not so sure TJ. It could all come down to our away match at Bath in the final round. Unless of course we take 15 points from the Frenchies before that

[TJ]

Montpelier have nothing to play for so should be an easy 4/5 points. If Glasgow get beaten twice by Toulouse they do not deserve to go thru. ~Even my beloved MFLs managed to beat Toulouse a few years back. Bath not getting the bonus point makes them going thru very unlikely but I don't see them throwing in the towel unless they need to concentrate on the league

[VinceWLB]

Toulouse will win in Montpellier too so it all comes down to the doubleheader against Toulouse and them having won away to Bath makes them in a slightly healthier position.

I totally agree with you TJ if Glasgow don't manage to pick up at least 4 points against this Toulouse side they don't deserve to go through.

The real worry is Glasgow form in their last 3 games and the disruption caused by the AIs.

[George Carlin]

That's true, but our injury position could be so much worse.

[malky1963]

Well in other news, our 7s team has got off to a great start witha  43-0 thrashing against NZ...

They beat Samoa in the first game.

If anyone is interested they have actually played very well overall and are in the final of the plate (v Arg) with a large stack of points available.
On SS3 in 4 minutes.

Edit: Cruising at 12-0 and then completely throw it away to lose 12 - 26

[George Carlin]

Steve McColl starting for the Cherries against Zebre in Europe tonight (ie in half an hour).

Definitely going to be watching that one to see more of the boy.

[BigGee]

I have been watching the Wasps v Castres game. Things are clearly not good at Castres at the moment. They are bottom of the league and have not played well today, apparently the coaches have now all been sacked, they found out by reading about it in the newspaper! It is some fall from grace from a side that have been winners and runners up in the Top 14 for the past 2 years! The camera keeps panning onto the local hero Gerard Cholley, a fearsome French prop of the 1970's, who looked suitably unimpressed. I seem to remember him laying out the whole Scottish front row one game, one after another!

If they do come bottom and go down, not beyond the realms of possibility the way things are at the moment, what do we reckon the chances of Ritchie Gray coming back to Glasgow. I am sure he is not going to go down with them. This is his second year, is his contract up anyway, but surely he must have a relegation release clause anyway, pretty much all top players have them.

Glasgow are probably one decent second row short in their squad. Big Al must be on his last season and Tom Ryder seems to be on the decline now. It would be quite a coup to get him back, but maybe he would fancy it now. The ambition in the club is now there and he has made a few quid with his moves. The only thing is that he might well have got used to the weather in the south of France, hard for Glasgow to compete on that front unfortunately.

[justified sinner]

As you probably know I'm not a big fan of Solomons one dimensional game plan, however today was just ridiculous. It was obvious in the first 10 minutes that they had sussed it and were leaving 3 men back to wait for the box kick after 2 or 3 hit ups; importantly this always included Gordon Ross who remains one of the best tactical kickers in the game, so we end up losing territory time after time.

Now if I can see that why can't Solomons and change the game plan? Or more importantly why can't our Captain and Leader Mr Coman see that and have a word with the team?

Second half we changed it played ball in hand drive after drive, spreading it wide to create space and destroyed them. If we do that again next week it could be a cricket score.

My point is Solomons and Coman's in game management are both atrocious.

One further whinge about the ref, pinged Welsh for a lot warned their Captain twice but no YCs ? Oh and the touchy didn't ref offside all of the second half, most of them in front of me.

[funnyExiledScot]

JS I completely agree. As encouraging as it is that we managed to change things so decisively at half time, it should not have taken that long. Heathcote had a miserable match as well.

I very nearly left at half time, so bad were we in that first half.

[justified sinner]

We nearly left at half time to watch Glasgow as. well, but WP's try kept us there.

[RDW]

Good to hear Solomons is on top of things - he said the subs made a big difference, naming Cochrane and Sutherland - Sutherland was on from the start!

[jimbopip]

Oh my eastern brethren, that was probably the worst result (in terms of performance.. if that doesn't sound too Rab C Johnsonish) that you could have got.
If you had played that badly and lost then a palace revolution would have been in order. Then you might have been on the first steps to going somewhere but oh no you had to win. Now all the cracks will get papered over and very little will change. You have my sympathy, there's no pleasure in seeing you guys suffer like this.

[George Carlin]

Always interesting when your props seem to be your greatest try scoring threat. Gratifying at least that the subs want to get on the pitch and actually try to do something. They should give them a salary of some kind.

The only reason I will be down on Pappy is if he doesn't seem to learn from the form of his players. I don't know what Currie Cup matches he watched to cement his opinion that Strauss and Coman were the secret equivalent of Conrad Smith and Richie McCaw but he is running out of excuses to see that the local boys are currently doing a better job.

[tigertattie]

I am actually living in dread at the festive cup games.

If we play like that against glasgow and do one hit up and box kick rugby to Maitland, Seymour and Hogg, with Strauss in chage of our midfield and Visser carrying out defensive duties on the wing.................

Oh dear lordy!

I can see it now:
Edinburgh box kick. Glasgow punt it back further, Edinburgh lose territory
Edinburgh box kick again. Glasgow are now in Edinburgh's half. Glasgow opt to run instead of kick.
Glasgow run at strauss. Glasgow hand the ball to strauss, Strauss knocks it on.
Or Glasgow run at Strauss. Glasgow run passed Strauss. Glasgow score.
Or Glasgow run at Visser. Visser runs in the opposite direction crying and screaming "Don't make me tackle"

[RDW]

I think the following statement perfectly sums up all that is wrong with Edinburgh just now:

Edinburgh coach Alan Solomons was delighted to have found an additional goal-kicker, saying: “Ben Atiga (coaching assistant) assured me Sam is our second-best kicker. The best way I can describe Sam is as a natural talent who can play anywhere in the backs.

What does Atiga know about goal kicking??

[demosthenes]

I am actually living in dread at the festive cup games.

If we play like that against glasgow and do one hit up and box kick rugby to Maitland, Seymour and Hogg, with Strauss in chage of our midfield and Visser carrying out defensive duties on the wing.................

Oh dear lordy!

I can see it now:
Edinburgh box kick. Glasgow punt it back further, Edinburgh lose territory
Edinburgh box kick again. Glasgow are now in Edinburgh's half. Glasgow opt to run instead of kick.
Glasgow run at strauss. Glasgow hand the ball to strauss, Strauss knocks it on.
Or Glasgow Strauss (J) runs at Strauss (A). Strauss (J) runs passed over Strauss (A). Glasgow score. Repeat as often as necessary.
Or Glasgow run at Visser. Visser runs in the opposite direction crying and screaming "Don't make me tackle"

Even more amusing sub-scenario!

[funnyExiledScot]

Good to hear Solomons is on top of things - he said the subs made a big difference, naming Cochrane and Sutherland - Sutherland was on from the start!

That is alarming, it really is. He should also have mentioned Greg Tonks, who was markedly better than Heathcote.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think the following statement perfectly sums up all that is wrong with Edinburgh just now:

Edinburgh coach Alan Solomons was delighted to have found an additional goal-kicker, saying: “Ben Atiga (coaching assistant) assured me Sam is our second-best kicker. The best way I can describe Sam is as a natural talent who can play anywhere in the backs.

What does Atiga know about goal kicking??

Absolutely staggering. Both that Atiga has been made a coach after being such a liability as a player, but also that Solomons believes that S-HC is a utility back and not a scrum half. It is a specialist position which requires specialist training and focus.

The goal kicking was a shambles yesterday. Heathcote, typically very good in this department, missed two pretty straightforward kicks at goal (and at least two touch finders from penalties) and SH-C did not look confident at all.

[RDW]

The goal kicking was a shambles yesterday. Heathcote, typically very good in this department, missed two pretty straightforward kicks at goal (and at least two touch finders from penalties) and SH-C did not look confident at all.

On that note:

And if there was a lack of creativity in the Capital backs, Solomons revealed that Tom Heathcote had taken the field with a worry over a hamstring at a time when an extensive casualty list demanded it was all hands to the pump; and at least there was further evidence that Matt Scott is closing in on his international form.

He clearly doesn't trust Tonks at 10 at all - if Heathcoat was struggling with an injury, don't feckin play him!!

[EWT Spoons]

I think the following statement perfectly sums up all that is wrong with Edinburgh just now:

Edinburgh coach Alan Solomons was delighted to have found an additional goal-kicker, saying: “Ben Atiga (coaching assistant) assured me Sam is our second-best kicker. The best way I can describe Sam is as a natural talent who can play anywhere in the backs.

What does Atiga know about goal kicking??

Absolutely staggering. Both that Atiga has been made a coach after being such a liability as a player, but also that Solomons believes that S-HC is a utility back and not a scrum half. It is a specialist position which requires specialist training and focus..

I was just about to post something similar. I can only imagine that SHC will continue in his tour around the pitch in various positions. Clearly not at 12 though, I mean Strauss is untouchable, I guess maybe if Strauss decides he needs a wee break then we might see SHC at 12 with Matt Scott (12) still being played out of position.

Also Atiga doing anything at the club is a worry, let alone goal kicking. Terrible, Terrible idea. The only way it would be worse is if he was the team's nutritionist...I guess there is still time, maybe Atiga is a 'natural coaching talent' and will be deployed across various roles.

[Nematode]

Does anyone know how good Tonks is at place kicking?

[Nematode]

It's concerning that when Heathcote is a medium term injury concern, against arguably a team that is worse than Zebre, Solomons doesn't trust Tonks.

[RDW]

Tonks has probably been a 70% goal kicker - certainly not reliable.

Cuthbert's kicking is pretty good, but he's nowhere to be seen just now!

[MacKnocked-on]

Edinburgh's selections aren't helping the Scotland team much at present, we need competition for the Glasgow players in as many positions as possible, Cotter maybe has to stress this to Solomons. Even SQ players like Heathcote who are being picked aren't getting the chance really to push their Scotland case due to what must be a confidence sapping environment at Edinburgh. Hart came from Super Rugby and we were excited when it was announced he had signed yet he isn't showing the undoubted talent that he must possess to have done well in Australia. Atkins looked very good last year but again seems to have dropped his performance levels.
Some SQ players are showing some form; Toolis and Sutherland spring to mind, we just need more of them getting a chance in the team.

[Nematode]

Here's a thought:

So the SRU employ Vern Cotter, ex-Clermont HC, as Scottish head coach - what's he doing right now? Could he spend some time as an assistant coach at Edinburgh?

[tigertattie]

Makes you think that all the good work Solomons did at Ulster was in spite of him being there rather than because he was there!

Either that or he was a perfectly good coach but now he is suffering from senile dementia!

I really think it is time that the SRU at least brought Sean Lineen into Edinburgh to build from the ground up. Leave solomons there to do the running of the club if buying out his contract is too much. But get Sean in and in charge of player developement. His remit is to bring in SQ players who are better than the NSQ dross we have just now!

Oh what I would give to have Andy Robinson back at Edinburgh just now!

We need some from of crisis sqaud to come in on a consultancy basis.

Andy Robinson as forwards coach
Brian Redpath as backs coach
Telfer as motivational speaker
Geech as overall managing director

[RDW]

We need some from of crisis sqaud to come in on a consultancy basis.

Andy Robinson as forwards coach
Brian Redpath as backs coach
Telfer as motivational speaker
Geech as overall managing director
GC's mildly racist uncle Dougie to do the media interviews, detracting attention away from the dross on the pitch

[EWT Spoons]

GC's mildy racist uncle Dougie is actually Scott Johnson?

[George Carlin]

GC's mildy racist uncle Dougie is actually Scott Johnson?

You'd be taking your life into your hands if you suggested to him that he might be "a bloody convict".

[funnyExiledScot]

Tonks has probably been a 70% goal kicker - certainly not reliable.

Cuthbert's kicking is pretty good, but he's nowhere to be seen just now!

Give that McLennan is dire and Tonks is our best 10, I'd have Cuthbert back at 15 and responsible for goal kicking. Either that or Tom Brown at 15 and we just proceed without a top notch kicker and actually work on scoring tries.

[RDW]

Without being tainted by everyone's pre-conceptions, how did McLennan, Strauss and Coman play at the weekend?

Out of the 3 of them I do think Coman is the best - and is a decent squad player to have - but he just isn't in the same league as Du Preez and Denton. Once Ritchie and Bradbury are old enough to shave and learn to drive I'd hope that they would take over from him in the pecking order.

[tigertattie]

Apparently Edinburgh actually have a backs move called "momentum killer"

It consists of the the 10 calling for the ball, passing it to Struass who will then knock on.

[funnyExiledScot]

Without being tainted by everyone's pre-conceptions, how did McLennan, Strauss and Coman play at the weekend?

Out of the 3 of them I do think Coman is the best - and is a decent squad player to have - but he just isn't in the same league as Du Preez and Denton. Once Ritchie and Bradbury are old enough to shave and learn to drive I'd hope that they would take over from him in the pecking order.

Coman is comfortably the most useful of the three. Does lots of shouting, Al Kellock style, tackles well, carries ok and adds something to the lineout. He doesn't excel at anything, and against heavy traffic his ball carrying isn't up to much, but his work ethic is good. In terms of leadership, beyond shouting, I haven't seen any stroke of genius and he was unable to make the changes necessary on Sunday until half time. Still, he's the most useful of the three.

Strauss was hopeless once again. His only strength is his tackling. That's it. He punches above his weight in defence, but as he isn't particularly big, that just makes him average for an inside centre. There is not one ounce of creativity in his bones, like Coman he appeared unable to influence the malais in the first half and he has no pace. No pace whatsoever. He is absolutely military medium average in every respect. That's he's keeping Matt Scott away from his preferred position is dreadful judgement from Solomons.

McLennan was ok. Gordon Ross played a great kicking game in the first half and had McLennan running all over the place and taking the ball in some pretty awkward situations. He made one half break in attack and avoided any big errors. That said, he added very little in the way of counter-attack and looked pretty sluggish across the turf. If we're looking for mediocrity then I think we've found it. For all of Jack Cuthbert's flaws, he tends to make yards running the ball back and has a monster boot, so if he's forced into Solomons' myopic and dull game plan, at least he makes ground.

Out of 10 for Sunday:

1. Sutherland - 7 (my MOTM)
2. Hilterbrand - 5
3. Nel - 6
4. Toolis - 6
5. Atkins - 5
6. Leonardi - 5
7. Grant - 5
8. Coman - 5
9. Hart - 4
10. Heathcote - 3
11. Visser - 5
12. Strauss - 4
13. Scott - 5 (4 for the first half and 6 for the second)
14. Brown - 5
15. McLennan - 5

[RDW]

How was McInally when he came on? Albeit not at hooker...

Does he look like he's piled on the beef to cope at hooker?

Solomons said in an interview recently that Michael Bradley told him that he thought McInally was the best back rower at the cluh!

Kiss of death if ever there was one...

[tigertattie]

Cant someone at the SRU who just sack Strauss? Surely someone has authority to bin him?

[Nematode]

Should AS be concerned?

Bryan Redpath eyes future director of rugby role

PS Not had time to read it, just seen headline.

[funnyExiledScot]

McInally looked good off the bench, although I must say I noticed no discernible change to his physique. What I like about McInally is that he's a footballer, and doesn't just look for contact at every opportunity. Going back a while but his MOTM performance against London Irish in that HC run was absolutely top notch.

What annoys me about both him and Tonks is that Solomons continues to d1ck them around. Make a decision and stick with it. McInally has missed a big chunk of his career in relative terms without rugby, and the plan appears to have been abandonned without him being given the chance. Same with Tonks. Every time he plays at 10 he looks good, and yet Solomons doesn't have the vision to give him a run. If we are abandonning the idea of McInally at hooker and Tonks at 10, let's end it quickly and move them back to back-row and 15 respectively. Let's be honest, no-one has grasped their old positions with any authority, and with Du Preez and Denton out McInally is comfortably the best number 8 at the club.

[RDW]

Can't find the article, but Solomons said in an interview that McInally is now a hooker - he was only covering backrow due to injuries.

Tonks on the other hand, I've no idea.

[funnyExiledScot]

Not sure I'm prepared to take Solomons at his word re: McInally. Solomons talks a lot of cr4p. Loads of soundbites about building a club, not a team, developing a structure from which the club can grow and all that, but frankly we're moving backwards now. There's no evidence that the conditioning program has made any difference, result are poor, performances poor, style of play best described as turgid and very little development of SQ players.

Fair to say I'm a bit fed up with Edinburgh being mismanaged.

[EWT Spoons]

Couldn't find the article RDW was talking about but did find this:

Edinburgh's Stuart McInally has set his sights on becoming one of the best hookers in the world after taking the decision to convert from the back row.

The 23-year-old has yet to win his first cap for Scotland.

And he is being encouraged to switch by new Edinburgh coach Alan Solomons and Scotland boss Scott Johnson.

"I want to be one of the best hookers in the world. That's my goal and to bring a different dimension," said McInally.

"I could have a good career in back-row. But, with the right application, I feel I could be a great hooker.

"There's faith in me to deliver this at the highest level and, longer-term, fulfil my international ambitions and play for Scotland."

McInally has represented Scotland at Under-20 level in the back row and been an unused match-day replacement for the full national team.

Now he hopes to follow in the footsteps of Edinburgh team-mate Ross Ford, who won Scotland caps and represented the British & Irish Lions after making a similar switch.

"Ross Ford has helped a huge amount technically and also helped me make the decision, which I took several months to make," he said.

While insisting that he is excited at the challenge, McInally realises the specialist nature of his new position.

"I'll continue to play my type of game and hopefully become like an extra back-row on the field, like so many of the top hookers," he said.

"I think if it's managed well, switching to hooker can be a great move for a back-row forward and Edinburgh and Scottish Rugby have been very positive and been hugely supportive."

Johnson believes that McInally has already shown promise in the new position.

"The game of rugby is changing and the position of hooker, while specialist, requires a very diverse range of abilities, which Stuart already possesses: he's a dynamic and strong ball carrier and has excellent ball handling skills," said Scotland's director or rugby.

"I'm pleased to say that Stuart has taken to the specialist functions of throwing-in and hooking like a duck to water.

"However, what he needs is time to become used to performing these actions under immense pressure.

"Looking to the long-term, we require greater depth in the position and I believe that, come 2015, Stuart will join the likes of Ross Ford, Richard Hibbard of Wales and Steve Thompson of England who have successfully made this transition."

Solomons, meanwhile, said Edinburgh "will do everything we can to assist this process."

Set his ambition pretty high there.

Also the quote from Solomans obviously means "We'll do everything to assist, other than playing him in that position"

It's from an article last year, so not recent.

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