England v Italy - Squads and Match Thread

[yappysnap]

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v ITALY
14 February 2015
KO: 14:30
Twickenham Stadium

Referee: John Lacey (IRFU)
AR1: Pascal Gauzere (FFR)
AR2: Mike Fraser (NZR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

*****
So England have confirmed an unchanged squad after Parling is still ruled out injured.

ENGLAND's 23

Starting XV: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby). George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), James Haskell (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby).

ITALY
Luke McLean; Leonardo Sarto, Luca Morisi, Andrea Masi, Giovanbattista Venditti; Kelly Haimona, Edoardo Gori; Alberto DeMarchi, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Martin Castrogiovanni; George Biagi, Marco Bortolami; Francesco Minto, Mauro Bergamasco, Sergio Parisse.
Replacements: Andrea Manici, Matias Aguero, Dario Chistolini, Joshua Furno, Samuela Vunisa, Guglielmo Palazzani, Tommaso Allan, Giulio Bisegni

[Geordie]

You weren't attacked. I was one of the guys who disagreed with you and still do. He had a bad game today but I see real potential in May. Just needs to iron out a few parts of his game.

It hasn't helped with Watson coming in and playing like he is...and new golden boy Joseph being hailed as the new god also.

And come on mate...you know you do wind it up on these threads...

[The Saint]

I was definitely attacked by a poster or two though, and as you can see it's gone up a level this week! Haha I can only wind up when my team is on top so I have to disagree with that .

[Geordie]

Everyone have their players who they like and will defend.

Its not secret i'm not a fan of Twelvetrees at all. I'd love to know how many tackles he misses in a game..I bet its a surprisingly large number, but his fans brush over that.

May isn't perfect, and missed a tackle for a try which in another game could have been costly. But generally he makes his tackles excellently and does a lot of other work around the pitch.

I can see arguments for Ashton or Wade - id prefer Wade over Ashton...but I also see arguments for keeping May in there.

[nathan]

Just read that Italy had a 20% kick success. They really need a decent kicker

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Anyone got any news on what Brown's problem was, apart from getting his head in the wrong place?

England were pretty good in a lot of areas and poor in others. What happened to the tackling, I bet Farrell was getting ready to combust.

It takes a side 15 minutes to work out how it is going to go when you lose a player you have no direct replacement for, so I can understand the backs not working for the middle of the first half ( not the tackling, though).

I wouldn't change much though unless Lawes is fit again, possibly Youngs for Hartley, he looked good when he came on. Difficult to tell what affect it had on the scrum as they changed Cole as well.

Wigglesworth should be dropped out of the 23 though, twice he has come on and the pace has dropped both times. Care or Dickson would both put more pace on the game.

Cips made some bad decisions in the time he was on, he should have kept the ball in hand rather than kicking, especially the last play. Poor decision and a poor kick.

Unfortunately, I will be at about 40,000ft when the Ireland game is on, anyone know a place in Freetown that has good wifi to catch up on iPlayer?

Marler and Cole were immense; Marler for his work rate and Cole for his work as an auxiliary 7.

The back row after last week were less obvious, I mean Robshaw only made 14 tackles and 1 turnover, Billy only woke up and the second half and Haskell forgot where the posts were and to switch his brain on before he came out.

Compared to last week, Attwood was about the same, Kruis somewhat less noticeable

Youngs and Ford were quiet, Youngs passing was poor, perhaps why Ford did not seem to have as much time.

Burrell was good, Joseph, well what more can be said, two games, three tries.

May, some good, some bad. Needs to improve but the potential he has is worth sticking with him for. Watson has the potential to become the next Jason Robinson.

36 good ball in hand, is becoming a revolving door in defence.

[lostinwales]

I'd be tempted to swap Hartley and Youngs.

[bluestonevedder]

Anyone else feel that the intensity was just completely lacking from last week? That was the most noticeable thing for me. Everyone looked a bit complacent for the first 20, especially in defence.

[TightHEAD]

Hartley has been poor

[Geordie]

Yeah Youngs was very noticeable in the physical exchanges when he came on for Hartley.

I still rate Hartley very highly but he seems just lacking a bit of intensity at the moment.

[bedfordwelsh]

Yeah Youngs was very noticeable in the physical exchanges when he came on for Hartley.

I still rate Hartley very highly but he seems just lacking a bit of intensity at the moment.

GF,

Given his poor disciplinary record for Saints is he maybe a bit wary that he will get watched more closely these days?

[Geordie]

Quite possibly mate

[mystiroakey]

I think we underestimated them a bit and they snuck in a few tries.

I shouldn't complain about a 30pt win and 6 tries to 3- but then every single NZ fan does when it happens to them!!

We were allways going to win- But SL wasn't happy about it, you could tell in the interview- he said we should have done much better

[Ozzy3213]

Right, there have been at least 4 reports made about comments on this thread in the past hour or so.  Now rather than wield the big stick and threaten bans, I'm simply going to ask you to read the following link, and then ask yourself the question as to whether or not you feel that bickering over the internet is really the way to go.

http://blog.rugbyunited.info/2015/02/putting-rugby-in-perspective-by-pete-osborn-of-rugbyli

[TightHEAD]

I just hope SL can keep us ground for the Dublin game as we will have to improve defensively

[bedfordwelsh]

I just hope SL can keep us ground for the Dublin game as we will have to improve defensively

TH,

I think that is one area where SL is very good at and despite Ireland not offering much today their defence and forwards were very so you guys can't afford complacency not that I think you will.

[doctor_grey]

Right, there have been at least 4 reports made about comments on this thread in the past hour or so.  Now rather than wield the big stick and threaten bans, I'm simply going to ask you to read the following link, and then ask yourself the question as to whether or not you feel that bickering over the internet is really the way to go.

http://blog.rugbyunited.info/2015/02/putting-rugby-in-perspective-by-pete-osborn-of-rugbyli

Thanks for that post Ozzy. Anything about a child and family in that vein cuts to the core. It just sits there and burns, even if only for a little while.

[doctor_grey]

Johnny May is becoming an interesting case.  I understand why people disagree about him. He has terrific potential and serious speed.  But I think it is his instincts and split second decision making which let him down.  This was clear watching him run in any space today.  When he gets near defenders his instinct is to stop and try to step defenders rather than look to offload right there or take the ball straight into or through the defenders.  This slows attack and we saw how quickly the defenses can re-form.  I believe this directly cost the team a try today and against a better team (Ireland!) these opportunities will be rare and cannot be missed.  His second problem is the crabbing sideways.  This seems better than before, but still holds him back.  I agree his defense was not great today either. That made for an overall sub-par performance which stands out because most of the team looked relatively good.  I have to wonder about the coaching he is receiving.  

For the sake of peace in the family, let's presume the coaches will go through this with him and get him to agree to commit to his runs better.  I would keep him in against Ireland, and we see how he goes.  He is still in the audition phase for the RWC and needs to get it fixed or will end up being another player who doesn't get the best from himself. Let's hope for the best.

[No 7&1/2]

Not read all the thread during the game but is there anyone really holding up their hand for selection over May on the left wing? The only slight issue for me is whether Lawes or Parling can make it back for Ireland.

[Geordie]

Have people really reported this thread and some of its comments?

Unbelievable...

[bedfordwelsh]

Not read all the thread during the game but is there anyone really holding up their hand for selection over May on the left wing? The only slight issue for me is whether Lawes or Parling can make it back for Ireland.

I asked the question earlier on about SL as to what type of coach he is. Is he the type to show a bit of loyalty to this side now or if fit (know the won't all be) would players like Lawes, Parling, Launchbury and Manu walk straight back in.

Thought Attwood was very good today and Watson and Joseph have brought their club form to the England set up but all have only been picked because of injuries.

[No 7&1/2]

I like to think there d be some loyalty for performances but Lawes and Parling are a step up for me over Kruis at least. Both starting 2nd rows are were good but theyre still a step down fro m 1st choice.

[mystiroakey]

Joeseph is going nowhere. Quality player..a decent English back. !!!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Lawes will be back in place of Kruis when he's fit, the other second row place is anyone's guess, think it's horses for courses. Attwood is a more destructive runner but Launchbury is brilliant at the breakdown.

[doctor_grey]

Anyone got any news on what Brown's problem was, apart from getting his head in the wrong place?

England were pretty good in a lot of areas and poor in others. What happened to the tackling, I bet Farrell was getting ready to combust.

It takes a side 15 minutes to work out how it is going to go when you lose a player you have no direct replacement for, so I can understand the backs not working for the middle of the first half ( not the tackling, though).

I wouldn't change much though unless Lawes is fit again, possibly Youngs for Hartley, he looked good when he came on. Difficult to tell what affect it had on the scrum as they changed Cole as well.

Wigglesworth should be dropped out of the 23 though, twice he has come on and the pace has dropped both times. Care or Dickson would both put more pace on the game.

Cips made some bad decisions in the time he was on, he should have kept the ball in hand rather than kicking, especially the last play. Poor decision and a poor kick.

Unfortunately, I will be at about 40,000ft when the Ireland game is on, anyone know a place in Freetown that has good wifi to catch up on iPlayer?

Marler and Cole were immense; Marler for his work rate and Cole for his work as an auxiliary 7.

The back row after last week were less obvious, I mean Robshaw only made 14 tackles and 1 turnover, Billy only woke up and the second half and Haskell forgot where the posts were and to switch his brain on before he came out.

Compared to last week, Attwood was about the same, Kruis somewhat less noticeable

Youngs and Ford were quiet, Youngs passing was poor, perhaps why Ford did not seem to have as much time.

Burrell was good, Joseph, well what more can be said, two games, three tries.

May, some good, some bad. Needs to improve but the potential he has is worth  sticking with him for. Watson has the potential to become the next Jason Robinson.

36 good ball in hand, is becoming a revolving door in defence.

Good summary, mate and I generally agree. The tackling and defense regressed from last week, but overall the team seemed to lack intensity and this is not good. The scoreline did indeed make the match appear more one sided than it was. When the score was 18-10, the Italian kickers has already missed two penalties and one conversion. Things would have felt very different at 18 all instead of 18-10. I suppose this shows that the score of Italy-Ireland was not only a case of Ireland shaking off the rust.

I agree with your comments about Wigglesworth and Cipriani. Wiggly adds nothing and I don't see decision making as a Cipriani strong point. Good runner and tracked play very well, though.
I thought the England front row was fine, and the locks were OK, but not great.
The centres were good (when have we ever said that?). No need for change, obviously, but interesting choices for Stewie in the not too distant future.
Youngs was a bit slow with his passes out of the breakdown, but his try was a thing of beauty, same as the one against Ireland two years ago.
Ford, well, Ford just seems to annoy me. Yes, he had some slow ball. but England go through a few phases and progress slows. His job is to show some creativity and get things moving. Instead his only approach to creativity was to hoist up a kick.
Hoping Brown is OK.

Have to agree, no major changes for Ireland, except dropping Wiggly and bringing in Lawes, but only if he shows it at full speed in practice first.

Does anyone find it interesting that two of England's tries came from the retreads Easter (who was OK) and Cipriani?

[SecretFly]

Does anyone find it interesting that two of England's tries came from the retreads Easter (who was OK) and Cipriani?

I find it interesting that everyone on the team didn't help themselves to one

[yappysnap]

Mixed game from England but overall ok. Italy are very good at bringing the opposition down and if we did need a wake up call before Ireland then that opening 15 and final 5 mins should do it.

Intensity levels will never be the same against Italy as they would be against the toughest teams, but I expect the coaches to do a good job of getting the players focused for Ireland

[HammerofThunor]

Not read all the thread during the game but is there anyone really holding up their hand for selection over May on the left wing? The only slight issue for me is whether Lawes or Parling can make it back for Ireland.

Not really (regarding May). He's done good enough not to get dropped (unless there was someone tearing it up consistently, which there isn't). Much like Twelvetrees was.

[Duty281]

Jonny May is a worry defensively - poor positioning gifted Wales the opening try in the first game - though he is a clearly not a liability like Ashton is. And his desire to step in when he has the ball is the most predictable thing in the world rugby - I've only ever seen him run in a straight line twice in an England shirt!

I suppose Yarde and Wade, possibly Nowell, fitness permitting for all three, will have some chance at claiming May's spot before the World Cup begins.

Tuilagi is a favourite of Lancaster's, so it is likely that he will still hold the starting berth come September if he is not injured. Perhaps him at 12 - the power, the man to punch the holes - with Joseph at 13 on present form, offering the skill and guile.

Lawes and Launchbury should both be back in the starting XV when their injuries clear up. Harsh on Attwood and Kruis, who have done well, but it really is a testament to England's depth.

[HongKongCherry]

I will be cited for my club bias but I do think it is pretty harsh to criticise May for Morisi's 2nd try; he failed to put him into touch but did tackle him. Morisi went through Attwood, Haskell and Watson for his 1st try and for Parise's try he went through Watson, Attwood and Brown. So perhaps Morisi deserves some praise or other players need to be singled out.

Just to balance this out May did fluff the chance in the 1st half when he needed to straighten his line or ship the ball. But bar this he had a solid if unspectacular game, though I should add his kick chase from kick offs for both games has been excellent.

[LondonTiger]

I will be cited for my club bias but I do think it is pretty harsh to criticise May for Morisi's 2nd try;.

You cherry tinted so n so.

However I agree it is harsh. Yes he should have done better - but other guys completely missed much easier tackles on the Italian lad. I would also argue that the "butchered" chance was not as easy as many are making out. The drift defence was coming fast. May should have straightened and gone hard, but he really needed one of the two outside to get closer for that to be successful.

The entire team made a lot of mistakes - but most were part of team mistakes. Ben Youngs first pass was one of the few genuine solo mistakes.


Finally JJ - deserved MotM but all his work done once he was moved to the wing. Given Bomber's distrust of out and out wingers could that provide the solution to his desire to include Manu?

Genuinely finally - we started to play well after Brown was injured. Was it the break allowing England to regroup and puncturing Italy's bubble, or was it 36 who I felt played really well.

[HongKongCherry]

LT I didn't think I could get away with praising 36 too, but I agree I thought he had a very good game and its worth noting Bomber has singled him out for praise.

Just to show I can praise other team's players I thought Kruis had a fabulous game and his work rate was immense.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I will be cited for my club bias but I do think it is pretty harsh to criticise May for Morisi's 2nd try; he failed to put him into touch but did tackle him. Morisi went through Attwood, Haskell and Watson for his 1st try and for Parise's try he went through Watson, Attwood and Brown. So perhaps Morisi deserves some praise or other players need to be singled out.

Just to balance this out May did fluff the chance in the 1st half when he needed to straighten his line or ship the ball. But bar this he had a solid if unspectacular game, though I should add his kick chase from kick offs for both games has been excellent.

Don't forget that he made Cips try, drew in all the defenders and then offloaded to Cips for a run in. Other sides are very conscious of his pace and that can result in them ignoring the tracking player.

His biggest draw back and possibly the reason he crabs inside a lot, is also his greatest strength. He is that he is so, so, so, quick that no one else can keep up with him so rather than get isolated which he would be panned for, he comes inside looking for support. It is testimony to Cips pace that he could keep on his shoulder to score that try. I can't think of another English 10 that could.

HHC would probably know, but did I read it somewhere that he can do the 100m in 10.4 seconds, in boots. That is just ridiculously quick.

LT, I thought Youngs passing was poor all day, slow, inaccurate, straight to Ford rather than in front of him allowing him to attack the Italian defence. I would stick with him for Ireland, but if he is the same he needs benching. He seems to be regressing back to what got him dropped last time. England's current game plan needs a 9 that can put pace on the game aka Care. Youngs did it last week, but was too slow this week. Passing has always been his weakness I thought Tigers would have sorted him out be now. There game used to be at least similar to England's.

I think his brother should start next week though. I was very impressed with his 20+ minutes.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I can't believe I'm reading it's hard to blame May for the try, he had 5 meters to put the guy down, he did not tackle him!

[WELL-PAST-IT]

May I make a suggestion Sgt. make a look at the tackles missed that left May 1 on 1. Not the best tackle attempt, head on wrong side, but give Morisi some credit as well, he was the best Italian on the pitch by some margin and seems to have power in shed loads. May didn't drop off, just got dragged along.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'm not concerned with what happened previous.

2 weeks in a row May has been the last man and he's conpletley messed up.

Well past it, you are correct, May was 1 on 1, the 13 had nowhere to go but through May.....he done this easily.

[DaveM]

I thought May was criticised harshly last week, but this week he made a number of important mistakes. He butchered a chance, and at least one half chance, and he has to put the guy into touch. I don't think SL is pleased with that last try. He did very well for the Cipriani try, but is that enough? I'd bring in Nowell, who I think is a very well rounded player. In the medium term I wouldn't be surprised to see Tuilagi on the left wing.

I guess the overall display was good enough. I'd been starting to lose faith that Twelvetrees was going to establish himself, but I thought he was excellent yesterday (perhaps his best game for England). You could see Ford enjoyed having a second receiver in the side, and 36 even kicked from hand a few times (something he's rarely done for England).

Joseph was excellent, and England have choices in the backs for the first time in ages.

[Hood83]

I will be cited for my club bias but I do think it is pretty harsh to criticise May for Morisi's 2nd try; he failed to put him into touch but did tackle him. Morisi went through Attwood, Haskell and Watson for his 1st try and for Parise's try he went through Watson, Attwood and Brown. So perhaps Morisi deserves some praise or other players need to be singled out.

Just to balance this out May did fluff the chance in the 1st half when he needed to straighten his line or ship the ball. But bar this he had a solid if unspectacular game, though I should add his kick chase from kick offs for both games has been excellent.

Don't forget that he made Cips try, drew in all the defenders and then offloaded to Cips for a run in. Other sides are very conscious of his pace and that can result in them ignoring the tracking player.

His biggest draw back and possibly the reason he crabs inside a lot, is also his greatest strength. He is that he is so, so, so, quick that no one else can keep up with him so rather than get isolated which he would be panned for, he comes inside looking for support. It is testimony to Cips pace that he could keep on his shoulder to score that try. I can't think of another English 10 that could.

HHC would probably know, but did I read it somewhere that he can do the 100m in 10.4 seconds, in boots. That is just ridiculously quick.

LT, I thought Youngs passing was poor all day, slow, inaccurate, straight to Ford rather than in front of him allowing him to attack the Italian defence. I would stick with him for Ireland, but if he is the same he needs benching. He seems to be regressing back to what got him dropped last time. England's current game plan needs a 9 that can put pace on the game aka Care. Youngs did it last week, but was too slow this week. Passing has always been his weakness I thought Tigers would have sorted him out be now. There game used to be at least similar to England's

I think his brother should start next week though. I was very impressed with his 20+ minutes.

Thank you! Someone else who saw the same thing as me!

[thomh]

May didn't even need to make that tackle. He just needed to bundle the guy about 2 feet sideways.

[bluestonevedder]

May didn't even need to make that tackle. He just needed to bundle the guy about 2 feet sideways.

That was my concern. I'm an advocate of May, but his tackle was poor. 

Not only was his head on the wrong side but more worryingly, when May did hit him, Morisi didn't even move.

[HammerofThunor]

May got the initial hit wrong, because of his head position he backed off, once he was backing off to go again it was too late.

[TightHEAD]

May needs a kick up the ass, poor form apart from a couple of runs he has offered little, dare I say it Ashton is a better defender.

[lostinwales]

May needs a kick up the ass, poor form apart from a couple of runs he has offered little, dare I say it Ashton is a better defender.

No he's not. Of the available options the only one who is a better defender is Nowell.

[beshocked]

Lostinwales I would say that May is as much of a defensive liability as Ashton if not worse. Yarde is no better. It just depends if you feel that May has offered enough to outweigh his negatives.

I honestly don't know why people are so critical of Ashton - okay I know he hasn't played well for England in his last call up but he hasn't played in a while - I think he's an improved player just as someone like Haskell is.



DaveM I agree that Twelvetrees actually played pretty well in attack and helped in a turnover which led to a try but his defence was sub par. Though the tackling in general was poor from England.

[Bathman_in_London]

It was of course a very strong bit of play by Morisi too, given he made a break which lead to the Parisse try the bloke did pretty well.

Personally I would leave May in for another week, his break for the Cips try was very good after all.

On another note I often think a game vs Italy is a bit of a lose/lose in many ways. Anything other than total domination is seen as a failure. Yes there is plenty to work on but there were some very good tries scored and I think there was always going to be an unconscious drop off after the build up to the Wales game last week.

[bluestonevedder]

Lostinwales I would say that May is as much of a defensive liability as Ashton if not worse. Yarde is no better. It just depends if you feel that May has offered enough to outweigh his negatives.

I honestly don't know why people are so critical of Ashton - okay I know he hasn't played well for England in his last call up but he hasn't played in a while - I think he's an improved player just as someone like Haskell is.



DaveM I agree that Twelvetrees actually played pretty well in attack and helped in a turnover which led to a try but his defence was sub par. Though the tackling in general was poor from England.

In defence of Ashton, his performance for Saxons against Wolfhounds was very decent. His kicking game has come on leaps and bounds.

[yappysnap]

He's probably the best kicking wing that we have, in attack or defence. I'd be interested to see how he goes for the new look England.

[Sponsored content]