Froch Wants The Ward Fight In Nottingham

by **hampo17** Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Carl Froch wants to the Andre Ward fight in Nottingham, does home field advantage make a difference?

http://tinyurl.com/n8k793g

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:59 pm

Ward still thinks its 2012 and he's the name on everyones lips....

I think Froch would be gutted if Ward called his bluff. Not sure who Ward can fight next though without it being one of the Dirrells, who would be credible.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:00 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Ward still thinks its 2012 and he's the name on everyones lips....

I think Froch would be gutted if Ward called his bluff. Not sure who Ward can fight next though without it being one of the Dirrells, who would be credible.

You seem to be happy Fielding fights crap all the time..........So I shouldn't have thought credible opponents was a factor in your opinion..

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:25 pm

Scottrf wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, his situation being unified champ or not. Once he got to the top he's been happy to rest on his laurels. Not much doubt of the ambition that took him there (albeit he had a lot of things his own way), but that's kind of the point - think of what he could've done:

- Taken out a couple of hot up'n'coming whipper snappers at 168, plus maybe one of the other big names (e.g. Kess, Froch again or Bute [if he'd got him pre Forch])
- Rematched, and most likely beaten, Dawson at his proper 175 weight
- Cleaned up 175 (prior to Kov making an impact on the division)
- Mayyyyyybe even won a strap at CW (he's that talented and the division is that week)

He'd have to be sailing into Top 20 ATG status with that CV.

Instead he's going to just be a forgotten man...
Taken 3 fights at 168. Stepped up a division to beat the main man. Cleaned up this division. Stepped up another 25 pounds and won a title.

In 2 and a half years. With an injury and contract disputes.

You're certainly realistic. And know the sport well, clearly.

They were just options. Could've taken just 1 more at 168. Would've only needed maybe 2 fights to be considered 'the man' at 175. CW was optional.

Money talks, BS walks. He could've achieved miles more if he'd wanted to.

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:27 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Ward still thinks its 2012 and he's the name on everyones lips....

Even in 2012 he wasn't the name on everyone's lips.....

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Ward still thinks its 2012 and he's the name on everyones lips....

I think Froch would be gutted if Ward called his bluff. Not sure who Ward can fight next though without it being one of the Dirrells, who would be credible.

You seem to be happy Fielding fights crap all the time..........So I shouldn't have thought credible opponents was a factor in your opinion..

I lost interest in Ward a good while ago to be honest. Be interesting to see who he fights next though........if he does.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:58 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Ward still thinks its 2012 and he's the name on everyones lips....

Even in 2012 he wasn't the name on everyone's lips.....

History is full of great fighters who failed to connect with the public..

Hopkins spent years trying to get noticed......MCcallum never did connect.....

You're either hot or you're not..

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:01 pm

Or you can step up and be recognised or rest on your laurels.........

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:05 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Or you can step up and be recognised or rest on your laurels.........

Just in case you are being serious............How do you want him to step up ??.......Isn't cleaning out a division and beating the best man from the division above enough..

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:07 pm

He didn't beat the best man in the division above though, did he?

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:09 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:He didn't beat the best man in the division above though, did he?

Dawson was number 1............

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:21 pm

He beat him at the weight class below though Truss, surely to say you've beat the best X,Y,Z you have to actually beat them at them weights.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:23 pm

It was Dawson's choice...........Not like you to be so pedantic.............

It's a bit like Toppy dismissing the Alvarez win because he came in at 152/153...

Smokescreening..

by Scottrf Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:26 pm

It would be interesting to rewrite careers in the past, ignoring fights where one of the boxers wasn't established in the division. And that was with twice the gap between divisions.

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:28 pm

I'm not taking the win away from Ward Truss, nor saying it wasn't a good win (it obviously was,) I'm just saying he didn't beat the no.1 as it was fought at a different weight.

I'd say the same for any fighter too. Ward is a fantastic fighter but he never beat the no.1 Light heavy at that weight and (in my eyes anyway) never beat the no.1 light heavyweight (If you get my meaning)

Twice the gap would make it even worse Scott, He beat Chad Dawson fair and square at the weight of 168,

He didn't beat the no.1 Light heavy at the weight of 175

That's all i'm saying.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:29 pm

Scottrf wrote:It would be interesting to rewrite careers in the past, ignoring fights where one of the boxers wasn't established in the division. And that was with twice the gap between divisions.

Hagler should have asked Leonard If he could come in below 157...........That way he could say you never beat the best middle......I'm still champ !!

Wow surprised more champions haven't thought of that.........

by Herman Jaeger Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:32 pm

If Dawson had come down to super middle and beaten a contender first which would never happen anyway, then it would have been a decent win.

As it is, it's a nothing win. And the experiment has probably ruined Dawson's career.

by DuransHorse Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:33 pm

I think Froch probably doesn't want it, but if he has to make some noise then this was probably the safest noise to make. I think we all know that if Froch does feel cornered into fight Ward then now is the right time and Nottingham is the right place.

Providing all is OK with Ward he should win and if he keeps going and winning I can see him being the P4P no.1 when Mayweather and Pac call it a day. Then I think his marketability will sky rocket but for now, he should accept he's been out of the game, lost ground, and Froch is a great place to start building again.

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:33 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:He didn't beat the best man in the division above though, did he?

Dawson was number 1............

At what weight? And at what weight did they fight?

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:34 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What excuses would they be Toppy or are you more likely just trying to antagonise Truss, in reality that's all you ever do on here, he's says one thing you'll then try and say the opposite but with no real foundation of truth.

....

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:36 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It was Dawson's choice...........Not like you to be so pedantic.............

It's a bit like Toppy dismissing the Alvarez win because he came in at 152/153...

Smokescreening..

Agreed. It was Dawson that showed the ambition to do what was required to get the fight made, as Ward made it quite clear he had no interest even in a catchweight let alone moving up.

And re Alvarez-May, don't remember you being so generous to Pac when he fought Cotto at a 2lb below catchweight. What was that about consistency and double standards you were prattling on about yesterday??

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:37 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:What excuses would they be Toppy or are you more likely just trying to antagonise Truss, in reality that's all you ever do on here, he's says one thing you'll then try and say the opposite but with no real foundation of truth.

....

Hide behind your clique bretheren all you like Truss. Fact is you can rarely back up your BS, which I call you out on, much to Hammer's chagrin it seems.

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:37 pm

Dawson was no.1 at Light Heavy Truss,

They fought at Super Middle, therefore Ward didn't beat the no.1 Light Heavy, he beat a light heavyweight at a different weight.

by Scottrf Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:37 pm

Herman Jaggery wrote:If Dawson had come down to super middle and beaten a contender first which would never happen anyway, then it would have been a decent win.

As it is, it's a nothing win. And the experiment has probably ruined Dawson's career.

No it's not, that's nonsense. He was ranked in a lot of pound for pound lists and was the man a few pounds above. He obviously felt it was something he could do. Fighting some contender is just a waste of time.

People complain when these fights don't get made, and when they do either one guy is drained or the other is 'blown up'.

The reality is he took apart a very good boxer. No, it wasn't at his usual weight, but it was still a top win.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:39 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It was Dawson's choice...........Not like you to be so pedantic.............

It's a bit like Toppy dismissing the Alvarez win because he came in at 152/153...

Smokescreening..

Agreed. It was Dawson that showed the ambition to do what was required to get the fight made, as Ward made it quite clear he had no interest even in a catchweight let alone moving up.

And re Alvarez-May, don't remember you being so generous to Pac when he fought Cotto at a 2lb below catchweight. What was that about consistency and double standards you were prattling on about yesterday??

Manny is in my top 15/20......I'm probably the only poster who has him that high !!........

So that argument is a non - starter..

by Scottrf Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:40 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:And re Alvarez-May, don't remember you being so generous to Pac when he fought Cotto at a 2lb below catchweight. What was that about consistency and double standards you were prattling on about yesterday??

I said it was an irrelevant mind game and a good win then, I still do now.

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:41 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Herman Jaggery wrote:If Dawson had come down to super middle and beaten a contender first which would never happen anyway, then it would have been a decent win.

As it is, it's a nothing win. And the experiment has probably ruined Dawson's career.
No it's not, that's nonsense. He was ranked in a lot of pound for pound lists and was the man a few pounds above. He obviously felt it was something he could do. Fighting some contender is just a waste of time.

People complain when these fights don't get made, and when they do either one guy is drained or the other is 'blown up'.

The reality is he took apart a very good boxer. No, it wasn't at his usual weight, but it was still a top win.

It was a very good win Scott, it would have been a great win if it could have been made at a catchweight (not for a title) with both fighters moving a bit.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:42 pm

Scottrf wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:And re Alvarez-May, don't remember you being so generous to Pac when he fought Cotto at a 2lb below catchweight. What was that about consistency and double standards you were prattling on about yesterday??
I said it was an irrelevant mind game and a good win then, I still do now.

You know you're dealing with a guy who has Billy Conn in his Heavyweight Top 20 !!

by Scottrf Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:44 pm

Derbymanc wrote:It was a very good win Scott, it would have been a great win if it could have been made at a catchweight (not for a title) with both fighters moving a bit.

I've never heard any positive analysis of catchweights on here (I do see why, but it's a bit OTT normally). The only way he gets proper credit is to move to LHW. But then if Dawson had won Ward would have been called a blown up SMW.

by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It was Dawson's choice...........Not like you to be so pedantic.............

It's a bit like Toppy dismissing the Alvarez win because he came in at 152/153...

Smokescreening..

Agreed. It was Dawson that showed the ambition to do what was required to get the fight made, as Ward made it quite clear he had no interest even in a catchweight let alone moving up.

And re Alvarez-May, don't remember you being so generous to Pac when he fought Cotto at a 2lb below catchweight. What was that about consistency and double standards you were prattling on about yesterday??

Manny is in my top 15/20......I'm probably the only poster who has him that high !!........

So that argument is a non - starter..

That isn't the argument though, is it? You slated the Cotto catchweight fight and it came back to bite you in the bum when Floyd needlessly demanded the same of Canelo.

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:48 pm

I don't like catchweights Scott and a while back I was a fierce (grrrrrr) opponent of them. Can't remember who it was, but they marked it out that basically it allowed 2 fighters to move halfway between each others optimum weight and therefore both lose the advantage (they said it a lot better than me.)

To make the bigger fights now I can see the purpose of them but they should NEVER be used in a title bout.

Can't speak for everyone else but Ward would get more credit from me if they'd fought at a catchweight. Think if he'd have moved up to Light Heavy and beat him (which I think he would have) he'd be in very high standing with most people.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:48 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:It was a very good win Scott, it would have been a great win if it could have been made at a catchweight (not for a title) with both fighters moving a bit.
I've never heard any positive analysis of catchweights on here (I do see why, but it's a bit OTT normally). The only way he gets proper credit is to move to LHW. But then if Dawson had won Ward would have been called a blown up SMW.

Dawson was ranked number 1..Ward beat him....end of story !!

My number 1 is Ali...............Look..

Liston threw both fights..........
Norton beat him three times.....
Frazier was sloppy seconds
Foreman was green..
Williams and Patterson were past it...........
He got lucky against Lyle
Lost to a novice in Spinks................

Ali looks ordinary now...right ??

Enough of the kindergarten spin...........

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:49 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Or you can step up and be recognised or rest on your laurels.........

Just in case you are being serious............How do you want him to step up ??.......Isn't cleaning out a division and beating the best man from the division above enough..

Dawson has just been decisioned by Nurse Tom (@ Light Heavy) who lost every round to Cleverly. With the weight drop....that win looks weaker and weaker by each passing Dawson fight.

Would Ward move up to fight Sergei or Adonis Laugh

Or would he even fight Adonis if he threatened to move down.............doubt it.

Apparently he contacted Paul Smith about a fight before the Abraham rematch Laugh

Dont think I need to add much more.

by Herman Jaeger Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:50 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Herman Jaggery wrote:If Dawson had come down to super middle and beaten a contender first which would never happen anyway, then it would have been a decent win.

As it is, it's a nothing win. And the experiment has probably ruined Dawson's career.
No it's not, that's nonsense. He was ranked in a lot of pound for pound lists and was the man a few pounds above. He obviously felt it was something he could do. Fighting some contender is just a waste of time.

People complain when these fights don't get made, and when they do either one guy is drained or the other is 'blown up'.

The reality is he took apart a very good boxer. No, it wasn't at his usual weight, but it was still a top win.

Disagree entirely. It was not a top win at all.

And can you read my posts through before commenting next time?

Are you suggesting that I was asking Dawson to take on a contender first? Dear oh dear...

Like he's going to take on a contender when he can take on the champ... picard

The fact he was taken out by virtually the first hard punch he took in his next fight only adds weight to the argument that he was severely weight-drained against Ward, and it may have done some long-term damage.

A top win?

Not for me sunshine.

by Scottrf Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:51 pm

Derbymanc wrote:To make the bigger fights now I can see the purpose of them but they should NEVER be used in a title bout.

Well, they aren't officially enforced for a title fight. They are just part of contract terms. You would still have to come in over the official weight, not the catchweight to be ineligible for the title.

I get the issue, but to completely write off wins because of a catchweight (as some do) I think is silly.

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:52 pm

It's only spin if it's against a yank Truss,

He had a good win against the Super Middleweight Chad Dawson

He did not beat the no.1 Light Heavyweight Chad Dawson.

The weights are there for a reason.

by Scottrf Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:53 pm

Herman Jaggery wrote:Are you suggesting that I was asking Dawson to take on a contender first? Dear oh dear...

Like he's going to take on a contender when he can take on the champ...

I can't tell what part of your first sentence would make me think that... ("If Dawson had come down to super middle and beaten a contender first which would never happen anyway, then it would have been a decent win."). I know you can't expect many others to, but you should at least read what you write.

Luckily the boxing world did consider it a good win without consulting your opinion first.

by Derbymanc Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:54 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:To make the bigger fights now I can see the purpose of them but they should NEVER be used in a title bout.
Well, they aren't officially enforced for a title fight. They are just part of contract terms. You would still have to come in over the official weight, not the catchweight to be ineligible for the title.

I get the issue, but to completely write off wins because of a catchweight (as some do) I think is silly.

They shouldn't be part of any title negotiations thought Scott, If you want a catchweight then fine, but that shiny title you want to put on the line should be yanked off you, otherwise whats the point in weight divisions.

If you want to prove your the best at a certain weight then you should have to fight at that weight.

by Herman Jaeger Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:57 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Herman Jaggery wrote:Are you suggesting that I was asking Dawson to take on a contender first? Dear oh dear...

Like he's going to take on a contender when he can take on the champ...
I can't tell what part of your first sentence would make me think that... ("If Dawson had come down to super middle and beaten a contender first which would never happen anyway, then it would have been a decent win."). I know you can't expect many others to, but you should at least read what you write.

Luckily the boxing world did consider it a good win without consulting your opinion first.

'which would never happen anyway'

Dear oh dear, this man.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:58 pm

You and Toppy are like defence counsel trying to defend a guy who was seen standing over a dead body with a knife screaming "I did it" "I did it"...

Whatever road you take the Ward argument down.........There is a dead end.

Just accept your wrong..

by Rowley Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:00 am

Whilst I agree with the basic principle around catchweights and titles the reality is that's boxing. The guy with the title or who puts the zeros on the end of the cheque tends to call the shots. Jack Dempsey insisted Bob Fitzsimmons weighed in at ringside for their title fight solely because he thought Fitz was tight at the weight. Joe Gans was made to jump through ridiculous hoops in his finish fight with Battling Nelson. Fighters will take what advantages they can and how much they get away with it will tend to be dictated by how much money they generate, it ain't changed in the last 100 + years and is unlikely to change any time soon.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:05 am

Rowley wrote:Whilst I agree with the basic principle around catchweights and titles the reality is that's boxing. The guy with the title or who puts the zeros on the end of the cheque tends to call the shots. Jack Dempsey insisted Bob Fitzsimmons weighed in at ringside for their title fight solely because he thought Fitz was tight at the weight. Joe Gans was made to jump through ridiculous hoops in his finish fight with Battling Nelson. Fighters will take what advantages they can and how much they get away with it will tend to be dictated by how much money they generate, it ain't changed in the last 100 + years and is unlikely to change any time soon.

Doesn't stop there...

Size of the ring............Gloves..............Late notice for opponents.......Turning the heat up in halls...........appointing of officials..

I thought Murray should have complained about the size of that ring in Monaco..............He would have got beat but that's not the point....

Remember Juan Nazario refusing to fight Rosario for the title when he saw the ring in PR................They added another 6 by 6 feet..

I imagine midday in the Cuban summer was no accident when it came to Johnson v Willard !!!

by Herman Jaeger Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:06 am

Accept I'm wrong Truss?

Can't do that I'm afraid Truss.

It was a 'decent' win and that's if you're being generous.

Nothing more...

by Scottrf Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:08 am

Herman Jaggery wrote:'which would never happen anyway'

Dear oh dear, this man.

But you were suggesting it was necessary for it to be considered a good win, which is the point.

by Derbymanc Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:09 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You and Toppy are like defence counsel trying to defend a guy who was seen standing over a dead body with a knife screaming "I did it" "I did it"...

Whatever road you take the Ward argument down.........There is a dead end.

Just accept your wrong..

Might be nice to see you take your own advice once in a while.

Ward didn't beat the no.1 light heavy at light heavy,

He beat a super middleweight at super middle,

Check the weight ins, and the weight the fight was fought at, you never know big guy, you might learn something.

@Rowley,

Think it was probably yourself then that shown me it was very very daft to expect an abolishment of all catchweights. Would love to see just one time a catchweight to be given on a title fight and the challenger to go 'sod it' come in at the weight (not the catchweight), win and have the governing body uphold it.

by Herman Jaeger Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:13 am

Listen Scott just read my posts first please.

I wasn't , never have, never would suggest a champion fights a contender first when he has the champion on the table.

My point was hypothetical.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:20 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You and Toppy are like defence counsel trying to defend a guy who was seen standing over a dead body with a knife screaming "I did it" "I did it"...

Whatever road you take the Ward argument down.........There is a dead end.

Just accept your wrong..

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:22 am

Funny isn't it..............The people who come on here drooling over Kovo, Frampton and GGG want Ward to step up..........

What is the point trying to reason ????..............

One muppet even thinks Murray is a better win than P4P number 3 Manny !!..

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:23 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You and Toppy are like defence counsel trying to defend a guy who was seen standing over a dead body with a knife screaming "I did it" "I did it"...

Whatever road you take the Ward argument down.........There is a dead end.

Just accept your wrong..

I wish you'd just continue to post like this....

When you try to argue It's cringeworthy !! Cool

by Herman Jaeger Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:25 am

The Dwason win has caveats behind it, simple as that.

But like Jo when Truss is at work...

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:26 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Funny isn't it..............The people who come on here drooling over Kovo, Frampton and GGG want Ward to step up..........

What is the point trying to reason ????..............

One muppet even thinks Murray is a better win than P4P number 3 Manny !!..

Ward doesn't have to move up, but he has got to fight someone credible soon. And there arent many floating round at Supermiddle that he hasnt already beaten.

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