England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3

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ENGLAND vs  IRELAND

Date: Saturday 27th February 2016
Venue: Twickenham
Kick Off: 16:50 (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)
Asst Refs: Nigel Owens (WRU), Alexandre Ruiz (FFR)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (SARU)
TV Coverage: Live on ITV, RTE, FR2


Head to Head

Played - 119
Wins - 65/47
Draws - 7
Points - 1443/1037


Current Form

England:
W 40-9 v Italy
W 15-9 v Scotland
W 60-3 v Uruguay

Ireland:
L 9-10 v France
D 16-16 v wales
L 20-43 v Argentina


Recent Meetings

05/09/15 England 21 Ireland 13
01/03015 Ireland 19 England 9
22/02/14 England 13 Ireland 10
10/02/13 Ireland 6 England 12
17/03/12 England 30 Ireland 9



Teams

England


1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 39 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 68 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 1 cap)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 12 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 45 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 64 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 23 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 37 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 45 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 5 caps)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 30 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 44 caps)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 2 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 56 caps)
22 Elliot Daly (Wasps, uncapped)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 20 caps)


Ireland


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 68
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 60
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 17
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 47
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 58
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 44
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 27
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain 91
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 36
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 33
6. CJ Stander (Munster) 2
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain 82

Replacements
16. Richard Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 14
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
18. Nathan White (Connacht) 10
19. Ultane Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 7
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster) 68
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 27
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster) 22

What's wrong with the ratings?

Ireland missed Payne to organise the defence and that was telling. The truth is there is no one who deserves to be called a Lion on the Ireland side and arguably few on the England side. Ireland are going to get creamed in SA especially with Murray and Sexton playing so terribly.

Sexton can't do much as Murray hovers over a ball and lets defenders reform in front of him. His lauded 'physical presence' needs a rebooted kick up the bum coaching-wise and he should be told his role needs more... it needs a rapid fire decision making distribution game.
For me, we have many issues that need improving, but for me, distribution decisions and speed from our scrumhalf is the major one.

lostinwales wrote:I'd add that as predicted England are winning ugly, but they are doing it by grinding the opposition down. This will be tougher with Wales

England are winning ugly but you get the sense they are going to click and then they'll give someone a bit of a beating.

Notch wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I'd add that as predicted England are winning ugly, but they are doing it by grinding the opposition down. This will be tougher with Wales

England are winning ugly but you get the sense they are going to click and then they'll give someone a bit of a beating.

2 games to go for England. So which team do you suggest? WALES OR FRANCE?

England didn't win ugly. They smashed Ireland. Ireland attacked about 3 times only. I'm disappointed England didn't score a few more points.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Notch wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I'd add that as predicted England are winning ugly, but they are doing it by grinding the opposition down. This will be tougher with Wales

England are winning ugly but you get the sense they are going to click and then they'll give someone a bit of a beating.

2 games to go for England. So which team do you suggest? WALES OR FRANCE?

I can see them putting a bit of a score on France. Englands pack will stand up to the big French one and then after that they have nothing.

England were more expansive early one than I anticipated. I just do think that there will be a lot of talk of other teams having an off day against us when we play like this, when its more relentless pressure and physicality forcing the other team to play badly.

It was a long old 1st half for the Irish and the thing I thought was very noticeable was the way the England forwards always looked up for it when the Irish seemed slow to get off the ground and slow to form scrums etc. Hats off to the Irish for the way they played at the start of the 2nd, and the way Sexton kicked to get field position with so little actual running with the ball was quite something to see. When England turned things around and got the 2 tries it was pretty much it and I think that the stats were as even as they were was a lot to do with what happened after the game had gone away from Ireland.

englandglory4ever wrote:England didn't win ugly. They smashed Ireland. Ireland attacked about 3 times only. I'm disappointed England didn't score a few more points.

Isn't that winning ugly? It was hardly all black rugby.

Ireland play the ugliest rugby in world rugby. Its hard on the eyes.

Just back from the game and what a frustrating one. How England could so totally muller Ireland in the 1st half and yet finish with so few points defies belief. Given we did everything but cross the line, what we needed was a Saint Jonny to DG the 3 points. And I know it was tatters but how both sides could drop the ball so much… was like watching a couple of pub teams at times. And if England want to get anywhere they just have to cut out their awful discipline – 2 YC, 1 or 2 other possible ones, and just how many penalties. I know Haskell’s YC was a bit 50:50 but he’s going cost us dear if he doesn’t wise up a bit. And what the hell was Mr Angry up to – for a terrible moment I thought we were going to be down to 13 men with Ireland on our 5m line and 10 minutes to go. Also Ireland cut through our line just a bit too easily a few times.

On the plus side got to say that Nowell is fast becoming undroppable, Itoje looks completely at home, our LO was very good – better than Irelands and that surprised me, and Billy could soon become our 1st world class player. 3 out of 3 and the chariot rolls on.

As for Poite - can't say if he did well or not as I didn't understand most of his decisions, just baffling most of the time.

Well, the set piece was decent, the breakdown better than usual, and the carrying effective. Overall the pack is shaping up nicely (Itoje was excellent on debut, meaning a real dilemma in the second row). Some of the back play was actually pretty good too, and EJ ended the game with two centres in the centres, albeit it Daly was out of position and had no chance to impress after Care was sin-binned.

So lots of good things, but obviously plenty to work on. Playing 25% of the game with only 14 men, and making so many errors when close to the line spring immediately to mind.

Overall another step forward, and plenty more to come.

Think the margin was about fair. Ireland had a bit of a good patch but Eng always looked more in control. Bit surprised it took them so long to score the tries. Irelands defence looked so narrow in 1st half and Eng prob got fastest back 3 in tournament-but eventually got there.

Need to look again tomorrow cos was in pub/quite drunk but... surely Mike brown is in the Poopie- the kick that actually hit Murray I think was fair enough and no probs-but then he kicked a player twice on the ground??
Generally a good result for Eng but think they be quite annoyed they didnt do better. Poor result for Ire but considering the missing players not a bad performance, should have played more territory though.
Looking forward to nxt round!!

Brown is a dirty player and has a poor temperament.

Aw diddums. Is Rugby too rough for you.

englandglory4ever wrote:Aw diddums. Is Rugby too rough for you.

Rugby is a tough sport, but surely even a Savage such as yourself must understand the dangers of getting punted in the skull?

In my opinion, Brown hacking at the ball and his foot making contact with Murray's head with enough impact to force home from the field is a serious infringement. The intention is a moot point. At the very worst it was a deliberate kick to the head, at best it was a clumsy and reckless act.

Brown is fine. If you're looking at full backs, it's Hogg and Liam Williams that are the real problem in rugby.

Or.....Murray went off his feet into a ruck ....illegally leading with his hands, placing head and hands in danger. Now that is reckless. Imagine if he did that in a NZ ruck.

Last season I would have been 100% certain that a citing would follow for Brown.

This season I am not so sure. While they have cracked down on contact with the eyes, even if it is only deemed as reckless, they have loosened up things on taking the man out in the air such that if you are competing for the ball you will not be done.

Brown did make contact with Murray, however he was kicking at the ball and our game is Rugby Football.

If he is cited I will understand why, if not equally I will understand why.

Cyril wrote:Brown is fine. If you're looking at full backs, it's Hogg and Liam Williams that are the real problem in rugby.

Funny you should say that, its got me racking my brains for a time when either Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg have stuck the boot in with a player on the floor and taken several swipes at a ball that was next to the players head, also as hard as I try I cant remember either Williams or Hogg have a petulant temper tantrum with a reporter either. I suppose its all about what you class as acceptable and which eye you have open though.

LondonTiger wrote:Last season I would have been 100% certain that a citing would follow for Brown.

This season I am not so sure. While they have cracked down on contact with the eyes, even if it is only deemed as reckless, they have loosened up things on taking the man out in the air such that if you are competing for the ball you will not be done.

Brown did make contact with Murray, however he was kicking at the ball and our game is Rugby Football.

If he is cited I will understand why, if not equally I will understand why.

Exactly right. There seems to be a consistency issue in the application of the laws at the moment.

Yeah Murray went off his feet and I agree put himself in harms way. This is why we should bring back rucking. A good stud rake or two would have got Murray out of the way, and would probably reduce the risk of him getting accidentally kicked in the head.

LondonTiger wrote:Last season I would have been 100% certain that a citing would follow for Brown.

This season I am not so sure. While they have cracked down on contact with the eyes, even if it is only deemed as reckless, they have loosened up things on taking the man out in the air such that if you are competing for the ball you will not be done.

Brown did make contact with Murray, however he was kicking at the ball and our game is Rugby Football.

If he is cited I will understand why, if not equally I will understand why.

I think there is a higher chance of a citing simply because it is Brown, he is starting to get a reputation whether it is fair / earned or not.
If he is then I would hope the finding is no more than it should of only been a yellow at the time and therefore no further action is needed.
He wears his heart on his sleeve and the game would be far less entertaining without some players like that.

2ndtimeround wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Last season I would have been 100% certain that a citing would follow for Brown.

This season I am not so sure. While they have cracked down on contact with the eyes, even if it is only deemed as reckless, they have loosened up things on taking the man out in the air such that if you are competing for the ball you will not be done.

Brown did make contact with Murray, however he was kicking at the ball and our game is Rugby Football.

If he is cited I will understand why, if not equally I will understand why.

I think there is a higher chance of a citing simply because it is Brown, he is starting to get a reputation whether it is fair / earned or not.
If he is then I would hope the finding is no more than it should of only been a yellow at the time and therefore no further action is needed.
He wears his heart on his sleeve and the game would be far less entertaining without some players like that.

He doesn't have to be a walloper every game he plays in though. In this particular case I do firmly believe it was an accident, but he does seem to get involved in a few "square go's" as we would say in Scotland.

Or as Sean Connery says in The Rock, "pershonally I think you're a fracking idiot."

2ndtimeround wrote:

Cyril wrote:Brown is fine. If you're looking at full backs, it's Hogg and Liam Williams that are the real problem in rugby.

Funny you should say that, its got me racking my brains for a time when either Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg have stuck the boot in with a player on the floor and taken several swipes at a ball that was next to the players head, also as hard as I try I cant remember either Williams or Hogg have a petulant temper tantrum with a reporter either. I suppose its all about what you class as acceptable and which eye you have open though.

You'll have to remind me how many times Brown has actually been carded or cited playing for his country.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Aw diddums. Is Rugby too rough for you.

Rugby is a tough sport, but surely even a Savage such as yourself must understand the dangers of getting punted in the skull?

In my opinion, Brown hacking at the ball and his foot making contact with Murray's head with enough impact to force home from the field is a serious infringement. The intention is a moot point. At the very worst it was a deliberate kick to the head,  at best it was a clumsy and reckless act.

Oh dear. Only the Celts can come up with stuff like this. It was none of those things you cite. The ball was on the ground in a ruck. Players in an onside position are perfectly able to ruck the ball with their feet. Its called "rucking". Brown's foot, when it made contact with the player, was going backwards in a rucking motion. If you listen to the TMO he also sees nothing wrong with it. Grow up and understand the game and that sometimes people get injured accidentally.

What Brown did could be classed as reckless but I doubt very much that it was intentional. Thought it was dealt with on the field (at a time when Poite seemed on a one man mission to yellow card England player) well.

Indeed. If Poite had been reffing on Friday, Wales would have been fielding a 7s side by the end. Not sure if France would have scored any more points though!

englandglory4ever wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Aw diddums. Is Rugby too rough for you.

Rugby is a tough sport, but surely even a Savage such as yourself must understand the dangers of getting punted in the skull?

In my opinion, Brown hacking at the ball and his foot making contact with Murray's head with enough impact to force home from the field is a serious infringement. The intention is a moot point. At the very worst it was a deliberate kick to the head,  at best it was a clumsy and reckless act.

Oh dear. Only the Celts can come up with stuff like this. It was none of those things you cite. The ball was on the ground in a ruck. Players in an onside position are perfectly able to ruck the ball with their feet. Its called "rucking". Brown's foot, when it made contact with the player, was going backwards in a rucking motion. If you listen to the TMO he also sees nothing wrong with it. Grow up and understand the game and that sometimes people get injured accidentally.

I am grown up, played the game for 13 years and noone knows better than me that people get injured accidentally. I really wish people would stop saying "grow up" as if you are being an adult and I'm not by expressing my opinion on a rugby forum that doesn't agree with your opinion.

It was likely an accident, but that doesn't mean it wasnt clumsy and foolish and resulted in an injury to another player.

These are professional sportsman and they do have a duty of care to each other. That's why tip/drop tackles are so severely punished these days, or taking players out in the air for another example.

I see no distinction in taking a player out in the air and trying to kick the ball on the ground and striking a player with a boot in the face or head. Both can be accidental or deliberate but both are dangerous and should be punished accordingly.

I don't need to grow up, it's just my opinion.

eirebilly wrote:What Brown did could be classed as reckless but I doubt very much that it was intentional. Thought it was dealt with on the field (at a time when Poite seemed on a one man mission to yellow card England player) well.

I think that is probably right. Doesn't change the fact that Brown is such an objectionable little oik. He lacks any class, surely there is a better 15 in England with a bit of skill and class. We all like to see a bit of aggression on the field but Brown doesn't have any upstairs control does he.

Cyril wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:

Cyril wrote:Brown is fine. If you're looking at full backs, it's Hogg and Liam Williams that are the real problem in rugby.

Funny you should say that, its got me racking my brains for a time when either Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg have stuck the boot in with a player on the floor and taken several swipes at a ball that was next to the players head, also as hard as I try I cant remember either Williams or Hogg have a petulant temper tantrum with a reporter either. I suppose its all about what you class as acceptable and which eye you have open though.

You'll have to remind me how many times Brown has actually been carded or cited playing for his country.

I would imagine he has been cited the same number of times as the players you were trying to put down, at least for now.

Why do people have a problem with what Brown did, the ball was there to be kicked Murray was just unfortunate to get in the way. No problem the TMO said so.

offload wrote:

eirebilly wrote:What Brown did could be classed as reckless but I doubt very much that it was intentional. Thought it was dealt with on the field (at a time when Poite seemed on a one man mission to yellow card England player) well.

I think that is probably right.  Doesn't change the fact that Brown is such an objectionable little oik. He lacks any class, surely there is a better 15 in England with a bit of skill and class.  We all like to see a bit of aggression on the field but Brown doesn't have any upstairs control does he.

He doesn't come across as the sharpest pencil in the box but he is one of Europe's most exciting counter attacking backs and as good in the air as the Welsh backs, next game is going to be an interesting competition.

TightHEAD wrote:Why do people have a problem with what Brown did, the ball was there to be kicked Murray was just unfortunate to get in the way. No problem the TMO said so.

I think the concern might be that regardless of whether the ball was there to be kicked, the player is responsible for where he puts his feet particularly when in close proximity with a players head. Accidental? probably. Reckless? that's the question. Those that dismiss the clamour with "it's a ruck" and "it's not tiddlywinks" don't understand the duty of care that is applied. Plenty of players have been sanctioned for being reckless with the boot when there was no deliberate foul play.

I have said it before Brown kick on Murray was( AN ACCIDENT) It was not deliberate. so their is no need for Brown to be cited.

majesticimperialman wrote:I have said it before Brown kick on Murray was( AN ACCIDENT) It was not deliberate. so their is no need for Brown to be cited.

You can't possibly know that and shouting it won't make it so.

majesticimperialman wrote:I have said it before Brown kick on Murray was( AN ACCIDENT) It was not deliberate. so their is no need for Brown to be cited.

People have been cited and banned for non-deliberate actions before - and will be again.

The 1st kick I agree ball is there to be played-that is the one that hits Murray in face-reckless but probably not deliberate. After that though, Murray has ball in his hands off ground(no need to say that he not allowed to do that-irrelevant to the argued foul play after) and Brown hacks at it twice more. I am genuinely surprised that lots of people think this was fine, TMO and ref included. Guess just shows how much interpretation is involved in rugby laws.

Yes, the first few kicks at the ball are fine but it is the second time when he comes in with two extremely reckless flying kicks that is the problem and led to an injury. It was dangerous and should at least be heavily scrutinised by the citing commissioner.

kingjohn7

If you watch Brown he kicks out at the ball ( kicks forward) and then gets pushes back...it is then when brown makes contact with Murray's face. Toatal accident.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, the first few kicks at the ball are fine but it is the second time when he comes in with two extremely reckless flying kicks that is the problem and led to an injury. It was dangerous and should at least be heavily scrutinised by the citing commissioner.

It was the initial few kicks that caused the injury not the second lot.

Brown came in from the side, used the boot recklessly not once but twice, connecting twice on the head of the player on the ground. Red card all day.

VinceWLB wrote:Brown came in from the side, used the boot recklessly not once but twice, connecting twice on the head of the player on the ground. Red card all day.

Well obviously not in the minds of ref or TMO.

LondonTiger wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Brown came in from the side, used the boot recklessly not once but twice, connecting twice on the head of the player on the ground. Red card all day.

Well obviously not in the minds of ref or TMO.

That wasn't yellow card worthy yet alone red card worthy, the punishment fit the the crime; coming in from the side.

I know the laws, and interpretations, change every season - so past seasons examples not exactly relevant. However can anyone remind me the outcome of the POC/Daverage incident please. I know there was a lot of fuss at the time.

Also how do people thjnk it compares to the retrospective YC given to Tom Wood after the Wales match in RWC?

So now reckless play (at best) which could have turned a player blind is within the rules? Only at Twickenham i guess.

VinceWLB wrote:So now reckless play (at best) which could have turned a player blind is within the rules? Only at Twickenham i guess.

whether you mean to or not - you are sounding extremely bigoted. Not helped I guess by the muppets of my own nationality egging you on.

LondonTiger wrote:I know the laws, and interpretations, change every season - so past seasons examples not exactly relevant. However can anyone remind me the outcome of the POC/Daverage incident please. I know there was a lot of fuss at the time.

Nothing happened although it was a different situation as the ball wasn't in the ruck. The ball was loose which is why POC attempted the kick. However last season Luke Marshall was banned for a similar incident if I remember correctly. He made contact with a player's head (a total accident) and was banned for 5 weeks, I think.

Getting away from the Brown incident as it will divide opinions until the chickens come home.

How good a performance was it by Billy Vunipola yesterday, possibly one of the best 8 performances I have seen for some time. I would love to see his stats from yesterday as every time he touched the ball, he made good ground.

I think it was:

18 Carries
96 metres
10 defenders beaten
12 gainline progress

Cheers Hammer, those are very impressive stats.

Billy was excellent and ended the game as captain too. I hope this pouts to bed assertions that he is merely place warming for Nathan hughes.