England training squad this week

First topic message reminder :

Brothers Vunipola missing, as is Joe Launchbury. Mike Williams back in with yet another chance to break his arm. Various other players who missed the AI also back. Beeb picks up on Nathan Catt's inclusion also

Tuilagi back in. Given his current physical state I am just hoping that its not kill or cure, or that Jones doesn't give up on him given he's probably not fully fit yet. Usual 2 scrum halves, Alex Lozowski also in for more experience.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38477218

Forwards: Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

So we need a LH now....

Rob Vickers has not even been mentioned.....

ChequeredJersey wrote:

whocares wrote:with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

Is 32 old for a flanker?

It really depends on whether the players replacing him can play as well as him. If not, and to be honest that could go either way- Itoje and a few others have great potential, but Robshaw is an excellent, excellent player at all levels (I've so rarely seen him have a bad game personally as a player that I can't actually recall the last one even when he was being slated for England) - then why bring in an inferior player just to look to the future when Jones makes it clear that his policy is the opposite and we have seen teams thriving with elder good players like POC and McCaw without actually struggling to bring in their successors?


Also, I laughed earlier at the suggestion that Wilson is the same as Robshaw (maybe he is, he's been solid when I've seen him but it's a HUGE claim, Robshaw statistically has the second best international workrate per minute after Pocock and that's including impact players off the bench, has outplayed almost every highly vaunted international flanker he's been on the pitch with at least once, has been AP player of the year at 6 and 7, has ludicrous international defensive stats and despite not apparently being any good at the breakdown was recently the top turnover winner in the 6N) but more so that right now Robshaw benefits from playing in a better team. Maybe on paper he should, but right now Falcons are a better side than Quins, without a doubt

Im the one making the shouts for Wilson and Ill echo what Sgt just said. I didn't say he was as good or anything like that...im saying he has been playing consistently top class in the premiership for a woeful side for 4/5 years now...and just gets better and better...and that he is a very similar style to Robshaw. He would be an ideal replacement if that is what Eddie Jones is looking for. Especially with so many injuries.

To say Wilson is "solid" is a bit silly CJ...and you obviously haven't seen much of him.

The falcons have improved considerably this season...but in previous ones when they have been quite horrible...Wilson has continuously stood way above in performance.

And I have been calling for him to be in the England set up for several years now. The least he should have been in was the Saxons.

But hey...ill delightedly watch him play for us week in week out instead of losing him to England for umpteen matches at a time....

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Genge is surely next in line. He was huge against Wasps at the weekend.

Genge was actually dropped from the elite squad, so is nominally behind Mullan and Catt in the pecking order. However, Genge is being talked up again, so, if he's included as a replacement for Marler, then he might yet leapfrog back up.

Not sure if injury replacements are allowed to stay with the squad once the bloke they replaced returns. It would make sense for that to be allowed for continuity purposes.

I think in international windows a coach can call up whomever he likes. The EPS is just about access to players outside those windows.

True, but the Six Nations doesn't enjoy a 7 week window. It's a two-week, a one-week and another two-week window in a 7 week period. The off weeks are not covered by international windows, so if you're not covered by the EPS, clubs get first dibs.

If Jones calls Genge in as a temporary replacement for Marler, then he can keep Genge throughout as an EPS member. If he recalls Marler, he can add Genge to the England squad and use both in game weeks, but he can't block Genge returning to Leicester in the off weeks as he will no longer be in the EPS.

king_carlos wrote:1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Kruis 6.Itoje 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.George 17.Genge/Catt 18.Sinckler 19.Lawes 20.Clifford 21.Care 22.Daly 23.Nowell

Best case scenario from now (i.e. before the final 2 group stages for European cups) is something like that.

With Lawes, Wood and Slade also in with very good shouts if guys go down injured.

From that Hartley and Kruis wont have played any rugby between now and the France game - if they are fit for it of course. Haskell will also be very short of game time.

That team is nearly spot on however Eddie likes one speedster and one work horse on the wings so I would say May will be dropped for Jack Nowell.

Maybe Genge over MM?

propdavid_london wrote:Wasn't there a ? over Clifford too?

Think he is on Return To Play, one week ahead of Haskell but possibly recovering more slowly due to relative size of brain...

Poorfour wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Wasn't there a ? over Clifford too?

Think he is on Return To Play, one week ahead of Haskell but possibly recovering more slowly due to relative size of brain...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

whocares wrote:with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

Is 32 old for a flanker?

It really depends on whether the players replacing him can play as well as him. If not, and to be honest that could go either way- Itoje and a few others have great potential, but Robshaw is an excellent, excellent player at all levels (I've so rarely seen him have a bad game personally as a player that I can't actually recall the last one even when he was being slated for England) - then why bring in an inferior player just to look to the future when Jones makes it clear that his policy is the opposite and we have seen teams thriving with elder good players like POC and McCaw without actually struggling to bring in their successors?


Also, I laughed earlier at the suggestion that Wilson is the same as Robshaw (maybe he is, he's been solid when I've seen him but it's a HUGE claim, Robshaw statistically has the second best international workrate per minute after Pocock and that's including impact players off the bench, has outplayed almost every highly vaunted international flanker he's been on the pitch with at least once, has been AP player of the year at 6 and 7, has ludicrous international defensive stats and despite not apparently being any good at the breakdown was recently the top turnover winner in the 6N) but more so that right now Robshaw benefits from playing in a better team. Maybe on paper he should, but right now Falcons are a better side than Quins, without a doubt

Im the one making the shouts for Wilson and Ill echo what Sgt just said. I didn't say he was as good or anything like that...im saying he has been playing consistently top class in the premiership for a woeful side for 4/5 years now...and just gets better and better...and that he is a very similar style to Robshaw. He would be an ideal replacement if that is what Eddie Jones is looking for. Especially with so many injuries.

To say Wilson is "solid" is a bit silly CJ...and you obviously haven't seen much of him.

The falcons have improved considerably this season...but in previous ones when they have been quite horrible...Wilson has continuously stood way above in performance.



And I have been calling for him to be in the England set up for several years now. The least he should have been in was the Saxons.

But hey...ill delightedly watch him play for us week in week out instead of losing him to England for umpteen matches at a time....

I mean exactly what I said "he has been solid when I've seen him". I have seen him play, maybe 3-4 times this season, that is all. He looked solid. Which is fine. I can't comment and did not comment on his consistent quality as a player because as you have rightly determined I have not seen him play regularly. In past seasons he has also looked like a good solid player. Many people who don't follow Quins probably say the same about Robshaw, so it's not meant as an insult, just that a comparison between the two seems unbalanced, through no fault of Wilson's own, by the fact that Robshaw can play flanker a number of different ways and at a consistently high level against the best opposition in the world! The reduction of Robshaw to only being able to play the way he is now for EJ, very well, by many people not necessarily here is absolutely absurd by the way. Apart from being faster or bigger than he is, you tell Robshaw what you want him to do for the team and invariably whatever role it is he will do it well

ChequeredJersey wrote:

I mean exactly what I said "he has been solid when I've seen him". I have seen him play, maybe 3-4 times this season, that is all. He looked solid. Which is fine. I can't comment and did not comment on his consistent quality as a player because as you have rightly determined I have not seen him play regularly. In past seasons he has also looked like a good solid player. Many people who don't follow Quins probably say the same about Robshaw, so it's not meant as an insult, just that a comparison between the two seems unbalanced, through no fault of Wilson's own, by the fact that Robshaw can play flanker a number of different ways and at a consistently high level against the best opposition in the world! The reduction of Robshaw to only being able to play the way he is now for EJ, very well, by many people not necessarily here is absolutely absurd by the way. Apart from being faster or bigger than he is, you tell Robshaw what you want him to do for the team and invariably whatever role it is he will do it well

Likewise Wilson....he played half of last season at lock due to an injury crisis and was amongst the best in the prem...

Again...people label Robshaw solid...and your rating Wilson solid...that does look like a balance...maybe because they offer the same thing....

Anyway its irrelevant as Wilson wont get picked...

Very impressed with Robson in the Wasps Toulouse game. His pass is magnificent, like a bullet!

After the weekends performance from Care I would advocate Robson coming into the EPS and taking the bench spot from DC.
Cares decision making and execution seems to be way off at the moment and his usual sniping around the fringes is a rarity. I am hoping its just a dip in form and he will be back to his usual self asap. But having said that, Robson deserves a shot - and Ben Youngs is the golden boy.

Robson is in the EPS already, as one of four SHs

Yeah, sorry - I meant taking the back up (bench spot) from DC.

Well Robson has been very good this season, but with two things counting against him:

1) Sharing starting duties with Simpson at Wasps
2) Not as quick to breakdowns as Jones likes.



As I have said before, I would have played Robson in the AIs, but Youngs' performances justified Eddies call to start him. Not so much what he did ball in hand, but teh fact that whilst he was on teh pinch you barely saw any other player having to make a pass from the base of rucks and mauls because Lenny was always there. It was noticeable when Care came on against Australia that Cole suddenly had to clear the ball twice. This meant that Youngs was giving Ford quick ball to then dictate play.

Eddie is always loathe to give any credit to club performances, but Robson is certainly deserving of a chance. Initial 6Ns squad named on Sunday - should be interesting.

I think Youngs gets a fair bit more praise than he deserves. His passing from the ruck is pedestrian and frequently above head height, and frankly I could have made those breaks against SA with the giant "RUN HERE" signs they parked up around the breakdown.

Shame DC is off form, I suspect it's partly the coaching regime at quins this season. We've reverted to a 'by the playbook' style instead of playing what's in front of us.

Youngs has certainly performed well, possibly world class, but his passing is not his strong point and never will. He's kicked superbly and picked the gap like he did when he first broke through.

Robson has a better all ground game, but he obviously needs the chance to prove it on the bigger stage.

It's why I'd never pick Simpson as I think he just offers the same as Care or Youngs but isn't as good.

I'd like to see what Robson can do at international level at some point too.

I don't always think of B.Youngs and quick ball, he sometimes crabs across the field which slows down the delivery. He's got a good eye for the gap though, that's where I'd say his biggest strength is.

beshocked wrote:It's why I'd never pick Simpson as I think he just offers the same as Care or Youngs but isn't as good.

I'd like to see what Robson can do at international level at some point too.

I don't always think of B.Youngs and quick ball, he sometimes crabs across the field which slows down the delivery. He's got a good eye for the gap though, that's where I'd say his biggest strength is.

Simpson is far quicker than both Care and Youngs & his kicking is now spot on & he gets great distance. That said Robson deserves a shot on the bench - as I have said before he has been the best SH consistently this season.

mid_gen wrote:I think Youngs gets a fair bit more praise than he deserves. His passing from the ruck is pedestrian and frequently above head height, and frankly I could have made those breaks against SA with the giant "RUN HERE" signs they parked up around the breakdown.

Shame DC is off form, I suspect it's partly the coaching regime at quins this season. We've reverted to a 'by the playbook' style instead of playing what's in front of us.

Care's kicking is much poorer than Youngs, that's what has set them apart throughout their careers.

I'm a fan of Care's and really enjoy watching him play.

Youngs and DCs strengths are more varied than was often realised when they were younger though. Because they both burst onto the scene, young, rapid, making breaks, etc people often grouped their abilities together. In reality Care has played best when he has an attack running off himself at 9 rather than from 10. Youngs is best when asked to give quick service to a 10 then given a license to go himself when it's on.

Both have gone through periods of poor form for club and country. Both have also showed an ability to play much better for England than their club form at the time would indicate they should.

The main thing that has set them apart is kicking though. Care lacks the range and accuracy that Youngs has on his kicks. Even with Youngs having a tendency to kick too long (although he's got better there) he still has the far better box kick.

You could argue that Youngs is less prone to brain farts. The counter argument to that is the Quins game plan runs their attack off DC which can highlight his decision making implosions more.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's why I'd never pick Simpson as I think he just offers the same as Care or Youngs but isn't as good.

I'd like to see what Robson can do at international level at some point too.

I don't always think of B.Youngs and quick ball, he sometimes crabs across the field which slows down the delivery. He's got a good eye for the gap though, that's where I'd say his biggest strength is.

Simpson is far quicker than both Care and Youngs & his kicking is now spot on & he gets great distance. That said Robson deserves a shot on the bench - as I have said before he has been the best SH consistently this season.

I'd say Simpson was the quicker sprinter but he's got by far the worst pass. His service can be poor and he makes odd decisions too often. He does have a very good box kick though and is lightening quick. I just think it's his actual scrum half skills that hold him back.

beshocked wrote:It's why I'd never pick Simpson as I think he just offers the same as Care or Youngs but isn't as good.

I'd like to see what Robson can do at international level at some point too.

I don't always think of B.Youngs and quick ball, he sometimes crabs across the field which slows down the delivery. He's got a good eye for the gap though, that's where I'd say his biggest strength is.

I often see this "crabbing" remark leveled at scrum halves and Ben Youngs seems to cop for a lot of this in particular. It seems to me that this is a fairly lazy criticism. Generally scrum halves will do it to fix defenders. It can have the effect of stopping the entire defensive line flying up. Because of that it presents an opportunity to put runners into gaps that simply might not have been there had the defence not been fixed in this way. If a 9 simply whips the ball back to his 10 all game, the defences job is easy, they cap press up every single time and make life very difficult for the attack.

Variety is obviously the key. One of the reasons Youngs has been so successful with his sniping recently is due to the fact he is mixing his game up a lot and the defence simply don't know how to play him. I think if you watch Youngs and just count how many times he "crabs", how many times he whips the ball straight away and how many times he snipes you'll find a pretty good spread.

Now you might say, he's crabbing less, that's why he's been more effective. That's a reasonable assertion given his form. However unless you've analysed the games properly then we wouldn't know if this is actually the case, or just a perception. If he runs across the pitch and doesn't have any runners and we end up getting hit behind the gain line, then it looks bad doesn't it. It's more noticeable. But is that Youngs' fault? Or is that more indicative of the cohesion of the attack as a whole?

mid_gen wrote:I think Youngs gets a fair bit more praise than he deserves. His passing from the ruck is pedestrian and frequently above head height, and frankly I could have made those breaks against SA with the giant "RUN HERE" signs they parked up around the breakdown.

Shame DC is off form, I suspect it's partly the coaching regime at quins this season. We've reverted to a 'by the playbook' style instead of playing what's in front of us.

He's been making breaks all year, not just against SA. And as others have said, his passing isn't his greatest attribute, but quick ball, an organised attack and good decision making are more important. Youngs' decision making is spot on at the moment and his pass is good enough to take advantage of the first 2 things I mentioned. He doesn't need to be the best, just good enough.

cascough you make some good points.

Yes that's the general argument I hear in defence of crabbing. It's meant to fix the opposition defence.

By crabbing they delay getting the ball out, giving less time for the 10 to make a decision.

I agree variation is key. Yes perhaps it is perception and maybe it's just what I generally like from a 9.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great when a 9 like Care or Youngs makes a sniping run, breaks through the opposition defence and either scores or helps set up a try but I personally want from a 9 - most of the time - quick and good ball for the backs to use.


Unfortunately none of us on these forums don't have access to all the stats. I am sure the pros focus on each player and analyse them in much more detail but we will have an opinion.

king carlos that's interesting anaysis too.

Matter of time before Robson takes over though?

I'm sure Robson will get a chance at some point if he keeps performing. I don't think it's right to say he will take over until he's proven it at international level (also, he's only 3 years younger than Youngs).

As others have said though, Care looks short of form. Perhaps Robson will sneak onto the bench this 6N.

Just basing it on his game. Most well rounded scrum half. Best pass. Just a better player for me.

It's impressive really that B.Youngs has 65 caps at the age of 27.

I'd say 3 years is quite a lot in rugby actually but Youngs is much more experienced.

Sadly for some players they don't seem to step up.

Seriously Christian Wade seems to be the forgotten man despite being in one of the best teams in England and scoring tries.

I would certainly pick Wade ahead of Yarde. No doubt about that.

Well, let's see if he can replicate that at international level first 7 1/2. One thing Youngs has that noone knows if Robson will have is the ability to do it on the big stage. Time will tell.

Beshocked, mistakes are punished more often against the best test teams. Perhaps he just doesn't fit the bill. Someone posted a list recently of the Prem top scorers in history and actually not that many of them transitioned to test level. Tom Voyce was on the list, I don't remember any clamour for him to be involved with ENG more often, thank christ.

I think with wingers at club level the ability to make solo tries against less-than-international-standard defences is paramount and if you can do that, you're a great club asset.

At international level though it's your ability to function as a part of the wider team, especially defense, that to some extent trumps pure try-scoring ability.

There has been a lot of talk of England injuries in the build up to this tournament. I know Marler, Billy V and Robshaw are injured. Anyone have the full list?

G.Kruis, Mako V, Launchbury (not sure if he played last week or not).

propdavid_london wrote:G.Kruis, Mako V, Launchbury (not sure if he played last week or not).

Thanks. Its not too bad then, right?

Ha - are you looking for assurances?
Its all change again for the start of the 6N. Some will be back by the last few games Ive heard.

EJ has had to deal with whole sale changes for the Oz tour and then again for the November tests - so we know there is some strength in depth (hence the record to date).

Will it be enough to deal with a resurgent France, a fired up Ireland a Full strength Wales and a Scotland that must be high on confidence. I hope so.

propdavid_london wrote:Ha - are you looking for assurances?  
Its all change again for the start of the 6N.  Some will be back by the last few games Ive heard.  

EJ has had to deal with whole sale changes for the Oz tour and then again for the November tests - so we know there is some strength in depth (hence the record to date).

Will it be enough to deal with a resurgent France, a fired up Ireland a Full strength Wales and a Scotland that must be high on confidence.   I hope so.

No not at all. I think Ireland will beat England this year no matter who plays. Failing that I do think they will lose at least one game.

England are a really good side but not unbeatable. This year Scotland, France, Wales and Ireland all can beat them if they get it right on the day.

Yet you have England as favourites. Who are Ireland tripping up against?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yet you have England as favourites. Who are Ireland tripping up against?

Probably Wales or France.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No not at all. I think Ireland will beat England this year no matter who plays. Failing that I do think they will lose at least one game.

England are a really good side but not unbeatable. This year Scotland, France, Wales and Ireland all can beat them if they get it right on the day.

No offense to Scotland but do we really have to deal with the idea that they might beat England every year?

Not at Twickenham. They nearly did a couple of times at Murrayfield in the last 10 years.

Before a ball has been kicked, it's pretty intriguing isn't it. 5, nay 6 teams that will feel they are on the up. But each respective teams momentum will have changed after the first game, so to a degree I'm not too worried that everyone seems to be in good form.

For Eng the France game is huge, they seem to be enjoying a resurgence and its first up, always tough. For me the biggest game is Wales though. They will have started with Italy so will still be coming into it with plenty of momentum, plus it's in Wales.

After that, I'm not too concerned. We play italy and should look to put them away comfortably. By that point we will hopefully have 3 on the bounce and I won't be worrying about Scotland. Likewise for the Ireland game, even if they've won all their games, given our superb momentum I'd fancy our chances.

The Scots are this perpetual dark horse.
They are a good side that were unlucky on a few of the Nov tests. They are well coached and have a consistently high performing club core of Glasgow players. There is no reason why they aren't and shouldn't be picking up more wins than they do.

Cliche for me that, David.

There's only so long you can go wheeling out the same reasons for falling short before you have to face facts and admit you're not good enough.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No not at all. I think Ireland will beat England this year no matter who plays. Failing that I do think they will lose at least one game.

England are a really good side but not unbeatable. This year Scotland, France, Wales and Ireland all can beat them if they get it right on the day.

No offense to Scotland but do we really have to deal with the idea that they might beat England every year?

Well yes, after Wales they were the side that came closest to beating England last year. It was only a six point win. In fact the last 10 games have been quite close bar 2013 and 1014.

At Twickenham you honestly think they'll trouble England?

No 7&1/2 wrote:At Twickenham you honestly think they'll trouble England?

Yes. I think Scotland will win.

Last win at Twickenham - 1983...

Every 6N 'live underdog' to plucky loser.

So you think Scotland will win and you think Ireland will win. Yet you have England as favourites. Not seeing your logic I'm afraid.

Scottrf wrote:Last win at Twickenham - 1983...

Every 6N 'live underdog' to plucky loser.

Perfect year to break it. I think England will have to beat Scotland to beat or equal the test match wins record. They will have sweaty fingers and this Scotland side has a big win in them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you think Scotland will win and you think Ireland will win. Yet you have England as favourites. Not seeing your logic I'm afraid.

Why not. England are favorites because they are champions and unbeaten in 2016. However, that's often when a team takes their eye off the ball which is what I think will happen.

A big win in them. Another Cliche. If they do win, it'll be a shock. But their results show that they consistently achieve mediocrity.

cascough wrote:A big win in them. Another Cliche. If they do win, it'll be a shock. But their results show that they consistently achieve mediocrity.

It will be a shock but 2016 was the year of the underdog and there were lots of shocks. I think this will extend to the six nations this year as England plough into unchartered territory for them.

Think Scotland have a higher chance of beating Ireland than England personally.

If Scotland are going to cause a shock that's the one I'd go for.