Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

Stoke have spent 10 years in the premier league, they are bottom 3 and dumped out the cup by coventry. The perspy is that they are an established prem team, hughes has them shipping goals, not scoring and being certainties for relegation. They have spent big money on wimmer who has struggled, imbula who is out on loan and berahino who cant score, bojan is well paid and on the bench for alaves. Stoke fans have perspective, hughes had no clues. Surprised he stayed this long.

My family are potters!

[McLaren]

Funny there is such a big focus on inequality when focus should be on poverty. Just an observation.

To which I would observe, in the US at any rate, that elected officials in certain States are elected to look after the selfish interests of their base and keep the poor poor, and the wealthy wealthier. Which is why most of the States with Republican Governors are the States at the bottom of the education charts, the life expectancy charts, virtually any cultural criteria. Which helps explain all the pushback against the ACA, for instance.

Didn't quite understand all that. But one should think there'd be a limit to how conspiratorial it can get if bad guys keep getting >50% of the vote?

If you valued reducing inequality it would make more sense to you and no conspiracy would be needed. Poor people (mainly whites) might be voting against their interests in terms of voting for politicians that would actually reduce inequality but they can vote for the right wing candidate and still vote against inequality. A vote for Trump or Brexit is a vote for politicians who won't work to reduce inequality but they are the politicians that are riling against the issues that matter to those at the other end of the inequality spectrum. If you vote Trump it is making the point that you don't support the wealthy liberal causes. Basically the white poor are voting to punish people like me who shout about SJW issues like whether someone like Super has used the correct term to describe a minority. Which could feel like a pointless endeavour when you live a life of poverty and real suffering, for example domestic abuse or not being able to feed your kid.

If the inequality gap were to be reduced this friction between people of different social classes would also reduce.

[JAS]

If the inequality gap were to be reduced this friction between people of different social classes would also reduce.

Yep...Mac makes profoundly true and relevant statement alert!!

[McLaren]

I guess it's like the monkeys eventually typing out the works of Shakespeare, it had to happen sometime in nearly 13000 posts.

[JAS]

I guess it's like the monkeys eventually typing out the works of Shakespeare, it had to happen sometime in nearly 13000 posts.

Maybe...but can you evidence that? :-p

[super_realist]

Funny there is such a big focus on inequality when focus should be on poverty. Just an observation.

To which I would observe, in the US at any rate, that elected officials in certain States are elected to look after the selfish interests of their base and keep the poor poor, and the wealthy wealthier. Which is why most of the States with Republican Governors are the States at the bottom of the education charts, the life expectancy charts, virtually any cultural criteria. Which helps explain all the pushback against the ACA, for instance.

Didn't quite understand all that. But one should think there'd be a limit to how conspiratorial it can get if bad guys keep getting >50% of the vote?

If you valued reducing inequality it would make more sense to you and no conspiracy would be needed.  Poor people (mainly whites) might be voting against their interests in terms of voting for politicians that would actually reduce inequality but they can vote for the right wing candidate and still vote against inequality. A vote for Trump or Brexit is a vote for politicians who won't work to reduce inequality but they are the politicians that are riling against the issues that matter to those at the other end of the inequality spectrum. If you vote Trump it is making the point that you don't support the wealthy liberal causes.  Basically the white poor are voting to punish people like me who shout about SJW issues like whether someone like Super has used the correct term to describe a minority.  Which could feel like a pointless endeavour when you live a life of poverty and real suffering, for example domestic abuse or not being able to feed your kid.

If the inequality gap were to be reduced this friction between people of different social classes would also reduce.

Mac, you do realise Corbyn is a Brexiteer don't you? He doesn't like the EU, yet he's the sort of person you say is great for sorting out equality.

[super_realist]

Super

I guess your parents jobs must be like me living in Haymarket, so I won't discuss it further.

Although I can exclusively reveal I came from a middle class background.  Probably at the lower end of the scale financially but culturally definitely middle class.

Too frightened to reveal it more like.

I remember you once saying you weren't proud of your job, which means it's either a crap job or it goes against your sensibilities. Why don't you put your MSc to better use and get a new job?

JAS, I think you're old enough to remember that there was never a time when everything was great, I'm sure you remember the 3 day week, constant strikes of the 80's, thousands of crap jobs in dying, outdated industries, putting people down mines, massive inflation etc, it's not like anyone saw year on year wage rises back then that kept pace with inflation, times were grim back then. I'd much rather be working now than back then.

Yes funnily enough I do remember the 3 day week, I was at primary school when Heath introduced it. Also the strikes were predominantly in the 70s, The 80s were more characterised by mass unemployment which was inevitable once union power was crushed (well I say inevitable - had we had a pragmatic Govt in the early 80s rather than an ideological right wing zealot things may have worked out quite a bit different).
With regard to inflation, it was damaging long term yes but in the short term as long as wages kept pace workers were ok.
The differences between the 70s and now is that income inequality has taken off exponentially and debt (both private and public) has taken off with it. Homelessness has pretty much followed the same trajectory. So...overall (after acquiescing to economists views of let’s kill inflation) nearly 40 years on, is society as a whole a better place??

Society is definitely a better place than it was in the 1970's and 1980's. I'm not sure you can say it isn't. Name one thing that was better back in the 80's other than music.

[kwinigolfer]

super,
I would think most people would say the era you had most fun in, most satisfying experiences, would be one's favourite.
I loved my life in the 70's and 80's, wouldn't change anything for what I have now except family. No question. Only real negative in 70's & 80's GB&I was the IRA. From my point of view anyway.

[McLaren]

Super

Have I ever said that about Corbyn? I like that he is socialist inclined but wouldn't agree with many of his positions.

[super_realist]

super,
I would think most people would say the era you had most fun in, most satisfying experiences, would be one's favourite.
I loved my life in the 70's and 80's, wouldn't change anything for what I have now except family. No question. Only real negative in 70's & 80's GB&I was the IRA. From my point of view anyway.

Fun doesn't mean that society was at it's best though Kwini. I'm sure kids in the Blitz had a blast, but I wouldn't want to be there. I was a kid in the 80's and I loved it, but I don't think it had anything special about the time. I'd probably love being a kid now too. It's easy to have rose tinted glasses, but you can do a lot more now than you could back then. Travel is easier, education is easier to obtain and access and is more diverse, science and technology have advanced, housing has improved, we don't have the London smog anymore, we're a more diverse society now too. Of course there's negatives, but in general I'd rather be alive now than in the 60's or 70's.

[super_realist]

Super

Have I ever said that about Corbyn?  I like that he is socialist inclined but wouldn't agree with many of his positions.

You never blame Corbyn though do you? His party was supposed to be the Remain party but Corbyn never raised a finger to help it, and actually undermined it.

[Diggers]

How do you mean housing has improved, for who? From where I'm sitting it's now a nightmare for young people to buy. Is that their fault?
More people may work, but many jobs have far less security than in the past.
The gap between the wealthy and the poor is growing.
There is absolutely no evidence to show the education gap between the rich and poor in society is growing, in fact completely the opposite is true. This is not solely measured by the fact more people may be going to university.
People are massively unhappy with the establishment, as shown by the Brexit vote (ironically bearing in mind who is negotiating our exit).
Whether you would prefer to live now rather than the 80's is a pretty small sample of opinion.

[kwinigolfer]

London smog was pretty much gone by the late 60's.
Travel was certainly more pleasant and largely more reliable.
Education was fine, just took on some different forms - Uni not so sought after for instance, career-oriented education and management training much stronger, companies investing in their young people.
Last flat I had in England was fabulous! Wish I still had it.

Each to their own obviously but I don't feel as if my generation has done any favours to the next generation or two. Course, GB&I is far different than the US, but I never had the sense of living in so much of a me, me, me society as I do now.

[Diggers]

Super

Have I ever said that about Corbyn?  I like that he is socialist inclined but wouldn't agree with many of his positions.

You never blame Corbyn though do you? His party was supposed to be the Remain party but Corbyn never raised a finger to help it, and actually undermined it.

Did he call a referendum to protect his party? We're there a queue of labour politicians lying about the benefits of leaving? No. But hey, let's still blame Labour and Corbyn.

[beninho]

I have a 3 year old and a 3 month old. I look at society and the world, and do I worry about them growing up in todays society, yep.

Labour was never the remain party, they had to straddle the line, to strong opposition then they lose the heartland areas who had gone pro brexit.

[McLaren]

Super

I have voted green for over 5 years now so not sure I need to defend Corbyn. One reason I won't be voting labour anytime soon is their pro Brexit position.

[McLaren]

we're a more diverse society now too

And you just revel in that!

[super_realist]

How do you mean housing has improved, for who? From where I'm sitting it's now a nightmare for young people to buy. Is that their fault?
More people may work, but many jobs have far less security than in the past.
The gap between the wealthy and the poor is growing.
There is absolutely no evidence to show the education gap between the rich and poor in society is growing, in fact completely the opposite is true. This is not solely measured by the fact more people may be going to university.
People are massively unhappy with the establishment, as shown by the Brexit vote (ironically bearing in mind who is negotiating our exit).
Whether you would prefer to live now rather than the 80's is a pretty small sample of opinion.

Have you never heard of the Gorbals and slums in our cities like Glasgow?
Also, much of the terrible high rise housing of the 60's is being torn down and replaced with better housing.

Thanks for saying that there is no evidence that the gap between rich and poor is growing, it's more accessible than ever. There's a lot more people from working class going to Uni now than did in the 70's. We've never had a higher level of University Education than we do now.

People are always unhappy with the establishment. We are no more unhappy now than we were back then, whether it was Harold Wilson, Thatcher, Blair etc people will always moan.

[Diggers]

No social housing now, plenty of no go areas, impossible to buy in many areas without the bank of mum and dad.
Typo on education, the 5 good GCSE attainment measure is utterly skewed in regard to demographics, mainly because money that should be poured into primary education goes into further education.
Who is this "we" you speak of? The royal Super we? It's purely subjective and happiness is an impossible measure.
I think society is split far more than in my living memory, and it's only going to get worse.

[Diggers]

This is from a review I'm reading from the educational policy institute:
For pupils who are persistently disadvantaged (i.e. those that have been eligible for free school meals for 80 per cent or longer of their school lives), the gap at the end of secondary school has widened slightly since 2007, by 0.3 months. In 2016, it stood at 24.3 months, equivalent to over two years of learning.
That's the truth of the attainment gap, it's not about going off to university, it's about the fact your life chance are limited from a very early age.

[beninho]

They need to try harder diggers. Our learned friend who was born into poverty, his parents barely able to buy irn bru and buckfast did it. So everyone can.

[Diggers]

They are clearer just lazy Ben. Bit of information on housing:
In 1980, we had about 30% of all homes being rented by councils and housing associations at affordable levels of rent. That is now at about 17% of all housing, and that is actually less than the private rented sector."

[Diggers]

And if you are in a position to buy a house:

"the average age of first time buyers since 1960, finding that those who bought their first home in the early 1960s were on average just 23 years old² – significantly lower than today's expected average age of 35."

[beninho]

I work in homelessness, housing is ridiculous.  So many problems. Homelessness in london is a massive problem.

[beninho]

Housing benefit freezes, benefit caps, and rising rents has made it hard for people to rent properties, and increases evictions and homelessness. Street homelessness is on the rise and universal credit is a Frak.

[super_realist]

This is from a review I'm reading from the educational policy institute:
For pupils who are persistently disadvantaged (i.e. those that have been eligible for free school meals for 80 per cent or longer of their school lives), the gap at the end of secondary school has widened slightly since 2007, by 0.3 months. In 2016, it stood at 24.3 months, equivalent to over two years of learning.
That's the truth of the attainment gap, it's not about going off to university, it's about the fact your life chance are limited from a very early age.

So in real terms, a week in 9 years, not really worthy of a mention is it Diggers?

We've always had, and will always have poor people who are disadvantaged, just because we still do, doesn't mean it was great back in the 70's or 80's.

[super_realist]

How do you mean housing has improved, for who? From where I'm sitting it's now a nightmare for young people to buy. Is that their fault?
More people may work, but many jobs have far less security than in the past.
The gap between the wealthy and the poor is growing.
There is absolutely no evidence to show the education gap between the rich and poor in society is growing, in fact completely the opposite is true. This is not solely measured by the fact more people may be going to university.
People are massively unhappy with the establishment, as shown by the Brexit vote (ironically bearing in mind who is negotiating our exit).
Whether you would prefer to live now rather than the 80's is a pretty small sample of opinion.

In the 70's and 80's far fewer people bought housing and the houses that people bought were crap.
This insinuation that millennials have it tough compared to their parents is laughable. 7% of baby boomers went to University and the vast majority of those who didn't grew up in hardship. The ones saying the baby boomers had it better are the offspring of the few who went to University, so they think everyone had it easy. They didn't.
Most people grew up in housing with single glazing and no heating other than coal fires.

[Diggers]

I'm talking about the disadvantaged in society, the group you say should just get on with it. I've shown you clear evidence that proves the attainment gap in education is not closing. The people who start life disadvantaged do not trot off to university. Also the lower working class don't get many places at the better universities.
And home ownership is at its lowest rate for 30 years. Do you literally just assume you are right about everything or do you ever bother to check facts?

[JAS]

Super

I have voted green for over 5 years now so not sure I need to defend Corbyn. One reason I won't be voting labour anytime soon is their pro Brexit position.

Hang on a minute, what's wrong with the Left being Pro-Brexit? The Tories don't have a monopoly on splits over Brexit. Brexit is NOT a pure left versus right issue.

Whilst I believe in the principle of economic cooperation between nations for the common good the fact is the EU as it was when we decided to leave (indeed still) is a grotesque corruption of what it's supposed to be. It's corrupt, it's full of greed and self interest, since 2008 and indeed before it has shown itself to be a tool for bankers and the Elites to manipulate for their own ends. If having the EU was so great WHY didn't they prevent the banking crisis and why when they had to deal with it plunge the continent into 8 years of austerity. Like the Tory party in the UK the EU is a wolf in sheeps clothing who's mouthpieces lie through their teeth to preserve their power base. I find it odd that the British people were smart enough to call them out in the referendum but subsequently stupid enough to then go and elect the Tories.

If it all falls apart in its current form we wouldn't really miss it? All of the Human rights and workers protection legislation could simply be taken on by individual former member states. Parties within those states could decide whether or not to adopt them and campaign for them in general elections i.e. democracy, something that doesn't really happen in the EU, yes we elect MEPs but we don't elect commissioners and its commissioners who run the show NOT the MEPs.

As far as Corbyn is concerned he was never an enthusiastic European Union advocate. As a backbencher he consistently opposed a lot of EU related legislation pushed by his own party, he is now in a difficult position as he's clearly mired down in trying to bring former Blairites round to his view.

[Diggers]

Brexit isn't a left v right issue Jas, but I would say Labour voters in general were far more likely to and did vote remain.
I would also Corbyn isn't particularly pro Europe for very different reasons to say Gove, the ideology is differs vastly.
Tory Brexiteers are obsessed with a vision of Britain as an independent, powerful state, a big player. Corbyn saw that EU cheap Labour eroded U.K. workers wages and rights. He is certainly not against many of the basic principles of the Union, which is what you'd expect from a (moderate) socialist.

[JAS]

Brexit isn't a left v right issue Jas, but I would say Labour voters in general were far more likely to and did vote remain.
I would also Corbyn isn't particularly pro Europe for very different reasons to say Gove, the ideology is differs vastly.
Tory Brexiteers are obsessed with a vision of Britain as an independent, powerful state, a big player. Corbyn saw that EU cheap Labour eroded U.K. workers wages and rights. He is certainly not against many of the basic principles of the Union, which is what you'd expect from a (moderate) socialist.

Yep that’s pretty much my take on it Diggers, I do think Corbyn is correct in his take on the EU but that it is a bit misaligned with a lot of the Labour Party who ain’t thinking through the implications.

Where it kind of falls down for Labour is that they seem to be Poopie scared to say “enough is enough” on immigration for fear of being branded racist. The fact is that immigration is a Tory delight (despite their lying ramblings to the contrary) because it increases the employment pool and thus drives down wages to allow big corporates to have bigger profits. That in itself wouldn’t be as big a problem if those bigger profits had the due corporation tax on them actually paid.
That brings us round to the whole reason the country is in a mess is because of the population growth, higher and higher demands are being placed on every arm of state provision (health, education, transport, local Govt) yet at the same time tax receipts are falling because of corporate tax dodging, tax dodging in general by the wealthy, new jobs being created at minimum wage levels and so not very tax generating and a culture of any hint a a tax rise for the general population being considered political suicide. Upshot is not enough money coming in...Services suffer, pretty simple really.
Sorry Super but you must be living in a very insular world if you don’t think this country has massive problems that require a drastic change of direction.
...and Mac if you seriously think the Greens can sort it you’re even worse.

[SmithersJones]

Just a few points which I can't be bothered to link to evidence for at this time on a Saturday night but will gladly do if anyone feels it necessary.
1) The idea that immigration drives wages down has been demonstrated to be false. The authors of the one report most quoted by brexshitters to say it does have themselves stated that if there is any impact in any sector is 'infinitesimally small'
2) Oxfam is the latest of many organisations to publish evidence of the widening gap between rich and poor.
3) Please stop making strawman arguments like 'if the EU's so great then how come.....' . Our government has acted entirely unilaterally in foisting austerity on the UK. Similarly it's all very well to say we could adopt workers rights legislation but you're an absolute fool if you think they'd survive for 5 minutes under a future tory government outside of the EU.
4) Corbyn's plain wrong in so many of his assertions on the subject - state ownership, single market membership, FOM are just 3 areas where he's frequently repeated demonstrably false ideas.
5) Commissioners are sent by the democratically elected governments of member states. They suggest and formulate regulations but the MEPs are the ones who get to decide whether those become law. Individual member states have vetoes. It's at least as democratic as our government with its unelected upper house. Since the Lords are appointed by family legacy, religious priviledge or party political favour I'd go so far as to say the EU is more democratic.
6) The raison d'etre of the EU is NOT economic but political. And the peace in Europe it's therefore helped ensure is something we definitely would miss.
7) Immigration is of benefit to the UK. EU immigrants in particular make a greater contribution to the economy than 'natives'.
8) Try telling anyone in Northern Ireland that we wouldnt miss the EU. It was key in the formulation of the GFA and remains key in its observation.

Please would someone provide evidence of the EU being a corrupt organisation? I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'd just like to see the evidence and compare it to our own government. Or for that matter our own MEPs like Farridge who've been fined by the EU for financial irregularities, demonstrating that the EU is trying to fight corruption within its own ranks.

One of my great frustrations with the whole brexit farce is that so few people have the faintest idea of the facts (e.g. Nadine Dorries and her uncertainty on CU membership) and instead act on their feelings. This never ends well.

[Diggers]

Federer, simply amazing. How he makes a sport look so easy at 36 is unreal. This was the 200th slam of the Open era, he's won a tenth of them, good going.

[McLaren]

Smithers, great post all most of which I agree with but sadly English nationalism won out, meaning the truth of what you posted above wouldn't matter to those who voting for #Brexit.


Jas

Labour can have anti EU policies if they want but for people like me it won't tempt me to vote for them again.

Although I have realised that I have a confession to make, I actually had to vote lib dem in the last GE because there wasn't a Green candidate for my constituency.

[beninho]

A 36 year old winning a major so easily, his only challenger is a crocked 30something makes me think tennis really is a struggling sport.

[beninho]

VAR. if people don't want it, surely they lose the ability to complain about decisions which would have been changed if it was in place. It does need tweaking though.

[dynamark]

Listen to you all .The sixties.
Fog, coal fires, ice on the inside of the windows, telephone box down the street,secondhand morris minor,hot water bottles,computer the size of a bus,palais de dance. and no chance of joining golf club unless you were white and very well off and didn't mind waiting five years .
On the other hand ben Sherman shirts,prawn cocktail and a bottle of blue nun.
Society is just as always if someone wants to work hard and make the effort they can do well house etc.Some are less fortunate in their circumstances but its still there if you want it badly.
My kids are 20 and 25 and I would love to be in their shoes now.

[kwinigolfer]

Yup, big differences between the sixties and seventies - early 60's and late 60's really, thanks Harold Wilson.
London anyway was a pretty exciting place to be in the mid/late 60's, country finally waking up after wartime, Carnabetian Army marching on, 15 pound a year cost of living increases plus an extra tanner on your LV's.

My children just a few years older dyna, my son's making money, got the world by the sneaks, daughter a couple of years older with a Masters and five year's teaching under her belt - she'll never catch up, not a chance, wouldn't be in her position for anything.

[Diggers]

My kids are 5 and 8 and I seriously worry that the world will be around long enough for them to live a full life. That element of global security has certainly ramped up massively, we had a lull after the end of the Cold War, now we have an aggressive Russia, a nut job who hates NATO for a President, a genuine loon running a nuclear state (your choice as whether that's the US or North Korea or even China or Iran) and a Europe that has been bound together could now fall apart...with the UK playing a big part in that.
It's not exactly a rosey outlook.

[raycastleunited]

My kids are 5 and 8

I remember when your first kid was due, how time flies. Amazing that this group of people have been posting for so long.

[pedro]

Digs,
Don’t think we should be too worried about N-Korea. Seems to be btw Little Rocketman and Trump.

Re. Russia, so you take Trumps standpoint of actually talking to the guy, rather than start a new cold war as European leaders advocate?

[JAS]

Just a few points which I can't be bothered to link to evidence for at this time on a Saturday night but will gladly do if anyone feels it necessary.
1) The idea that immigration drives wages down has been demonstrated to be false. The authors of the one report most quoted by brexshitters to say it does have themselves stated that if there is any impact in any sector is 'infinitesimally small'
2) Oxfam is the latest of many organisations to publish evidence of the widening gap between rich and poor.
3) Please stop making strawman arguments like 'if the EU's so great then how come.....' . Our government has acted entirely unilaterally in foisting austerity on the UK. Similarly it's all very well to say we could adopt workers rights legislation but you're an absolute fool if you think they'd survive for 5 minutes under a future tory government outside of the EU.
4) Corbyn's plain wrong in so many of his assertions on the subject - state ownership, single market membership, FOM are just 3 areas where he's frequently repeated demonstrably false ideas.
5) Commissioners are sent by the democratically elected governments of member states. They suggest and formulate regulations but the MEPs are the ones who get to decide whether those become law. Individual member states have vetoes. It's at least as democratic as our government with its unelected upper house. Since the Lords are appointed by family legacy, religious priviledge or party political favour I'd go so far as to say the EU is more democratic.
6) The raison d'etre of the EU is NOT economic but political. And the peace in Europe it's therefore helped ensure is something we definitely would miss.
7) Immigration is of benefit to the UK. EU immigrants in particular make a greater contribution to the economy than 'natives'.
8) Try telling anyone in Northern Ireland that we wouldnt miss the EU. It was key in the formulation of the GFA and remains key in its observation.

Please would someone provide evidence of the EU being a corrupt organisation? I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'd just like to see the evidence and compare it to our own government. Or for that matter our own MEPs like Farridge who've been fined by the EU for financial irregularities, demonstrating that the EU is trying to fight corruption within its own ranks.

One of my great frustrations with the whole brexit farce is that so few people have the faintest idea of the facts (e.g. Nadine Dorries and her uncertainty on CU membership) and instead act on their feelings. This never ends well.

Some good points well made Smithers. It’s good to be able to have a reasoned debate on here rather than

the binary insult fest that tends to happen on FB. Having said that I’d argue 1 until blue in the face, if not driving wages down certainly stopping them from rising. We’ve basically had uncontrolled immigration for the past decade and wages for most middle/low incomes have been completely stagnant. If average wages have risen it will be high earners skewing that particular stat.
2. Yep agree
3. Both Eu and UK indulged in austerity as a means of coping post crisis, yes the did act kind of unilaterally but their objectives were the same. Recapitalise the banks and to hell with the masses they’ll just have to suffer. Now you’d expect that from a Tory Govt but not from a supposedly socially conscious body like the EU...unless
of course as we can now see they’re not socially conscious at all, they were the de facto political arm of
Deutsche Bank. Incidentally the Greek crisis and how the EU dealt with it reaffirmed this.
4. I don’t think his view on any of those things is wrong.
5 & 6 Fair points
7. I’d say is missing the word “controlled”. Immigrants can and do make a difference. E.g. one to poke Trump in the eye with is that his mother was an immigrant, Steve Jobs father was a Syrian immigrant. So its not about immigrants. The problem is, do we have the infrastructure to cope with population increase. If your population rises from 60 to 70m whilst the number of doctors surgeries and hospital beds are cut you’re asking for trouble, I’d emphasise that’s not the immigrants fault, it’s the government of the day’s failure to plan accordingly.

[navyblueshorts]

JAS...come on. Your point 3 is just a little OTT and a bit 'Farage-like'. What actual evidence do you have that the EU is the political arm of Deutsche Bank? I don't suppose you're privy to the discussions of either.

As to 7, the issue is at least as much down to our own ageing population. What makes you think generally young immigrants contribute that significantly to the NHS crisis? If they're paying, but are generally not that unwell, they're almost certainly net contributors. I take the point though about doctors/nurses etc, but I suspect that's plenty to do with retention etc.

[JAS]

JAS...come on. Your point 3 is just a little OTT and a bit 'Farage-like'. What actual evidence do you have that the EU is the political arm of Deutsche Bank? I don't suppose you're privy to the discussions of either.

As to 7, the issue is at least as much down to our own ageing population. What makes you think generally young immigrants contribute that significantly to the NHS crisis? If they're paying, but are generally not that unwell, they're almost certainly net contributors. I take the point though about doctors/nurses etc, but I suspect that's plenty to do with retention etc.

You think?? There’s easily googlable commentary all over YouTube on exactly that. Now fair enough, you’d expect it from Varoufakis (although to be fair he Would have been party to such discussion). On a more unbiased level have a listen to political economist professor Mark Blyth on the subject.

With regard to the 2nd point re ageing population yes that will no doubt also contribute, the young immigrants might well be net contributors but that’s really isn’t the point. They may we’ll be net contributing but if that contribution is being throttled by a Govt ideologically opposed to public provision then the net result on the service is negative.

[SmithersJones]

Corbyn says you can't be in the single market if you're not a member of the EU. Switzerland, Leichtenstein, Iceland and Norway prove him wrong there.
He asserts that renationalisation of the railways wouldn't be allowed under EU rules. This is completely false, witness the state ownership of railways in France, Germany etc.
As for controlled immigration, the UK government has again unilaterally chosen not to apply the controls available to it under EU law. They could deport anyone here for 3 months without their own means of support, but don't.

I found this a very interesting analysis of lexit - http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/11/17/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lexit-in-five-minutes

[Diggers]

I love the way the Tories are rebranding themselves as the caring party on benefits after a u turn based on a court ruling that brands their policy in breach of human rights in many ways! Nice caring guys!
Now they have 1.2 million kids to review, how much extra cost and pressure will that put on a creaking system?

[super_realist]

Corbyn says you can't be in the single market if you're not a member of the EU. Switzerland, Leichtenstein, Iceland and Norway prove him wrong there.
He asserts that renationalisation of the railways wouldn't be allowed under EU rules. This is completely false, witness the state ownership of railways in France, Germany etc.
As for controlled immigration, the UK government has again unilaterally chosen not to apply the controls available to it under EU law. They could deport anyone here for 3 months without their own means of support, but don't.

I found this a very interesting analysis of lexit - http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/11/17/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lexit-in-five-minutes

I don't like May or her party, but I despise Corbyn and McDonald. A pair who think Venezuela is a good model of how to run a country surely cannot be allowed to gain power here. The idiot youth who vote for him are too young to remember how bad a real Labour government of the 70's was.

[Diggers]

Corbyn says you can't be in the single market if you're not a member of the EU. Switzerland, Leichtenstein, Iceland and Norway prove him wrong there.
He asserts that renationalisation of the railways wouldn't be allowed under EU rules. This is completely false, witness the state ownership of railways in France, Germany etc.
As for controlled immigration, the UK government has again unilaterally chosen not to apply the controls available to it under EU law. They could deport anyone here for 3 months without their own means of support, but don't.

I found this a very interesting analysis of lexit - http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/11/17/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lexit-in-five-minutes

I don't like May or her party, but I despise Corbyn and McDonald. A pair who think Venezuela is a good model of how to run a country surely cannot be allowed to gain power here. The idiot youth who vote for him are too young to remember how bad a real Labour government of the 70's was.

I'm 50, I think that's older than you Super, I #was 12 when that Labour govt ended and wouldn't pretend to remember or understand what they were like. The world was different back then, the Unions were very powerful, the economy has been weak for quite a while and in the end Callaghan had, just like May has now, a minority govt. In other words, very difficult to rule.
I don't really see how you can write off the possibility that a moderate socialist govt would fail solely based on 3 years that happened 40 years ago in a completely different set of circumstances and economic climate. What you can do is look at the policies they are currently proposing and make a judgement based on that, fair enough if you disagree, but comparing it to something that you were a very small child during doesn't seem particularly useful to me.

[Diggers]

Digs,
Don’t think we should be too worried about N-Korea. Seems to be btw Little Rocketman and Trump.

Re. Russia, so you take Trumps standpoint of actually talking to the guy, rather than start a new cold war as European leaders advocate?

To be honest I think Putin must be openly laughing at the rest of the worlds leaders, he's getting away with murder...literally in many places. Clearly, Russia's land gain policy is Europe focused so Trump can afford to have a different dialogue. I'd imagine that Putin sees Trump as massively inferior to him, I'd completely agree, and has pretty much done as he's pleased in regards to global foreign policy and meddling directly with US elections.
There is a big difference between talking to someone and looking like a doormat.

[JAS]

Corbyn says you can't be in the single market if you're not a member of the EU. Switzerland, Leichtenstein, Iceland and Norway prove him wrong there.
He asserts that renationalisation of the railways wouldn't be allowed under EU rules. This is completely false, witness the state ownership of railways in France, Germany etc.
As for controlled immigration, the UK government has again unilaterally chosen not to apply the controls available to it under EU law. They could deport anyone here for 3 months without their own means of support, but don't.

I found this a very interesting analysis of lexit - http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/11/17/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lexit-in-five-minutes

I don't like May or her party, but I despise Corbyn and McDonald. A pair who think Venezuela is a good model of how to run a country surely cannot be allowed to gain power here. The idiot youth who vote for him are too young to remember how bad a real Labour government of the 70's was.

I’m fascinated by this Venezuela comparison. I mean why go halfway round the world to a country with a despotic leader and a completely different set of economic/political values which could never realistically be described as Democratic Socialism when a much more obvious example of what we should be aspiring to if we’re going to have a decent pop at Democratic Socialism is just across the North Sea in Sweden. I suppose being reasonably successful with a high standard of public provision doesn’t quite sit well with a right wing narrative.

[JAS]

Also Diggers makes a very valid point about the struggles of the minority Callaghan Govt. It faults and effects have since been blown way way out of proportion. The 70s basically marked the end of an era. Because of the mass unemployment of the 30s leading to the rise of fascism and eventually war, the post war economies pursued a goal of full employment. By the mid 70s this was close enough to being achieved that it started causing other problems, most notably inflation. Wages were bid up and in relatively closed national labour markets companies had to cope so if wages rose, prices rose, when prices rose workers were back to square one and wanted wage increases....inflationary spiral. Democratic Socialism dropped the ball by allowing unions to run roughshod over companies. They could and should have been more disciplined and less greedy.
With Labour punted out of office in came Thatcher and with Reagan they completely redefined economic goals. Out went the pursuit of full employment and in came the pursuit of price stability and low inflation. Just like the pursuit of full employment the pursuit of low inflation last almost 30 years before it inevitably blew up. In the 70s the workers got greedy, in the 00’s it was the globalists and the bankers whose greed brought economies to their knees. We’ve continued to try and prop up the Neoliberal solution using austerity for the past 9-10 years now. I just don’t see that as sustainable moving forward.

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