Scotland V England - The Calcutta Cup

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Post by RDW on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 8:35 am

First topic message reminder :

GUINNESS SIX NATIONS 2020
8 FEB 2020
BT MURRAYFIELD
KICK-OFF 4:45 PM




Past results


201013 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England15–15MurrayfieldEdinburgh633915
201113 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England22–17TwickenhamLondon643915
20124 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England6–13MurrayfieldEdinburgh653915
20132 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England38–18TwickenhamLondon663915
20148 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England0–20MurrayfieldEdinburgh673915
201514 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England25–13TwickenhamLondon683915
20166 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England9–15[2]MurrayfieldEdinburgh693915
201711 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England61–21[3]TwickenhamLondon703915
201824 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg Scotland25–13[4]MurrayfieldEdinburgh704015
201916 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg Scotland38–38TwickenhamLondon704016
Teams

Scotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 HP7hDa92HluFnAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
TBC


Scotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 2 OZiWAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC


Furbank; May, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Heinz; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Itoje, Ludlam, Underhill, Curry

Replacements: Dunn, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Lawes, Earl, Youngs, Devoto

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:14 pm

Eejit wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:https://www.itv.com/six-nations/articles/jones-to-persevere-with-curry-at-number-eight-for-england

Yahoo

Banters getting a bit spicy on here

I’m sure the dancing emoticon wasn’t intended as celebrating someone getting hurt because that would be a dick move.

Also Tuilagi is a monstrous ball carrier, and not having him in the 23 knocking down tacklers like skittles changes how the game might otherwise have gone.

Devoto has been playing very well, and is a hard carrying , good handling 12. Not as ecplosive as Manu...but i think he would add alot to this midfield in terms of hard yards go forward.

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Post by RDW on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Eejit wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:https://www.itv.com/six-nations/articles/jones-to-persevere-with-curry-at-number-eight-for-england

Yahoo

Banters getting a bit spicy on here

I’m sure the dancing emoticon wasn’t intended as celebrating someone getting hurt because that would be a dick move.

Also Tuilagi is a monstrous ball carrier, and not having him in the 23 knocking down tacklers like skittles changes how the game might otherwise have gone.

Devoto has been playing very well, and is a hard carrying , good handling 12. Not as ecplosive as Manu...but i think he would add alot to this midfield in terms of hard yards go forward.

I've been impressed with him whever I've seen him play in the AP. Not overly experienced at International level though?

He's also a 12 if I remember rightly. Reckon Ford will be dropped? he was much better than Farrell at the weekend!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:21 pm

As I said above I'm sure had vunipola been around jonesn wouldn't be developing curry as an 8. This to me appears to be more a case as we've seen before of jones trusting the guys he knows to do the jobs he asks rather than 'parachite' someone in. Will be interesting to see with an extra weeks training if he still doesnt turn to hill or earl.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:24 pm

Manu Tuilagi is out with - wait for it..... a groin strain. Who'd have thunk it eh?

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:25 pm

RDW wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Eejit wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:https://www.itv.com/six-nations/articles/jones-to-persevere-with-curry-at-number-eight-for-england

Yahoo

Banters getting a bit spicy on here

I’m sure the dancing emoticon wasn’t intended as celebrating someone getting hurt because that would be a dick move.

Also Tuilagi is a monstrous ball carrier, and not having him in the 23 knocking down tacklers like skittles changes how the game might otherwise have gone.

Devoto has been playing very well, and is a hard carrying , good handling 12. Not as ecplosive as Manu...but i think he would add alot to this midfield in terms of hard yards go forward.

I've been impressed with him whever I've seen him play in the AP. Not overly experienced at International level though?

He's also a 12 if I remember rightly. Reckon Ford will be dropped? he was much better than Farrell at the weekend!

Hes essentially a new cap but one of those players whos been on the fringes of wider squads before. Not a raw kid in the club game, hes played a lot in the EC, playoffs etc. Is he Englands first choice? No. Will he start 12? Probably not. Would a fit Tuillagi start regardless of whether Jones changes the midfield? Absolutely. He might well not have even been in the wider squad had Slade been fit. But he did get in ahead of Tompkins....

I personally expect England to go with Ford, Farrell, JJ to start with Devoto and Watson on the bench. But we will see.

Englands injury list is pretty long, so no excuses for Scotland and Townsend. Pressures all on them Whistle

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Post by RDW on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Eejit wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:https://www.itv.com/six-nations/articles/jones-to-persevere-with-curry-at-number-eight-for-england

Yahoo

Banters getting a bit spicy on here

I’m sure the dancing emoticon wasn’t intended as celebrating someone getting hurt because that would be a dick move.

Also Tuilagi is a monstrous ball carrier, and not having him in the 23 knocking down tacklers like skittles changes how the game might otherwise have gone.

Devoto has been playing very well, and is a hard carrying , good handling 12. Not as ecplosive as Manu...but i think he would add alot to this midfield in terms of hard yards go forward.

I've been impressed with him whever I've seen him play in the AP. Not overly experienced at International level though?

He's also a 12 if I remember rightly. Reckon Ford will be dropped? he was much better than Farrell at the weekend!

Hes essentially a new cap but one of those players whos been on the fringes of wider squads before. Not a raw kid in the club game, hes played a lot in the EC, playoffs etc. Is he Englands first choice? No. Will he start 12? Probably not. Would a fit Tuillagi start regardless of whether Jones changes the midfield? Absolutely. He might well not have even been in the wider squad had Slade been fit. But he did get in ahead of Tompkins....

I personally expect England to go with Ford, Farrell, JJ to start with Devoto and Watson on the bench. But we will see.

Englands injury list is pretty long, so no excuses for Scotland and Townsend. Pressures all on them Whistle

Laugh

England's last 2 games have been awful performances. All joking aside I just can't see them making that 3 in a row and I think England will prove to be too strong in the end.

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Post by nlpnlp on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As I said above I'm sure had vunipola been around jonesn wouldn't be developing curry as an 8. This to me appears to be more a case as we've seen before of jones trusting the guys he knows to do the jobs he asks rather than 'parachite' someone in. Will be interesting to see with an extra weeks training if he still doesnt turn to hill or earl.

Is anyone surprised that B Vunipola has got injured? Surely an experienced International coach should plan for injuries and particularly injuries to players in specialist position. You are not going to make anyone into an International quality no 8 with a couple of weeks of training, apart from the fact that Curry lacks the physical requirements of a no 8.

How can we blame the players for not learning from their mistakes/adjusting to things going wrong when their coach shows a complete inability to do the same? It is no 8 in this tournament, but we were in a similar predicament in the World Cup Final where we were having to parachute in a scrumhalf.

Will anyone be surprised if Eddie picks Curry again at no 8 for the Scotland match despite all the evidence from the France match showing it was a bad idea?

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:40 pm

EJ has pretty much said hes' going to continue with the Curry at 8 experiment (unless he's just talking about evening meals)

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:41 pm

lostinwales wrote:EJ has pretty much said hes' going to continue with the Curry at 8 experiment (unless he's just talking about evening meals)

England will have another "bulky carrier" if he has curry at 8 and 9 every week

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:50 pm

nlpnlp wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As I said above I'm sure had vunipola been around jonesn wouldn't be developing curry as an 8. This to me appears to be more a case as we've seen before of jones trusting the guys he knows to do the jobs he asks rather than 'parachite' someone in. Will be interesting to see with an extra weeks training if he still doesnt turn to hill or earl.

Is anyone surprised that B Vunipola has got injured?  Surely an experienced International coach should plan for injuries and particularly injuries to players in specialist position.  You are not going to make anyone into an International quality no 8 with a couple of weeks of training, apart from the fact that Curry lacks the physical requirements of a no 8.

How can we blame the players for not learning from their mistakes/adjusting to things going wrong when their coach shows a complete inability to do the same?  It is no 8 in this tournament, but we were in a similar predicament in the World Cup Final where we were having to parachute in a scrumhalf.

Will anyone be surprised if Eddie picks Curry again at no 8 for the Scotland match despite all the evidence from the France match showing it was a bad idea?

I think the issue is hes not willing to pick players he thinks arent good enough to make the team better than it is already just incase. Its exactly the issue with fullbacks previously and 9s now. There will have to be someone different at 8 and 9 for the summer though as the core world cup players are being rested, so even the Curry experiment wont continue for Japan.
Jones does also seem to like his coaches work with smaller groups of players rather than having a 9 or 10 sitting around doing nothing when they are running game scenarios.
Sometimes this approach has worked out well, other times its leaving England looking exposed. Not having a proper A team and coaching for a wider elite squad probably doesnt help. Whoever is in the elite performance role now should be looking at this (as well as the problems its cause with not locking down players like Tompkins)

As it is a bunch of the summer tour players are likely to be coming from a very raw Under 20s side. May pay dividends in 3 years time but we could see a bit more pain with fill ins or players who are still learning their trade come Autumn.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:01 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As I said above I'm sure had vunipola been around jonesn wouldn't be developing curry as an 8. This to me appears to be more a case as we've seen before of jones trusting the guys he knows to do the jobs he asks rather than 'parachite' someone in. Will be interesting to see with an extra weeks training if he still doesnt turn to hill or earl.

Is anyone surprised that B Vunipola has got injured?  Surely an experienced International coach should plan for injuries and particularly injuries to players in specialist position.  You are not going to make anyone into an International quality no 8 with a couple of weeks of training, apart from the fact that Curry lacks the physical requirements of a no 8.

How can we blame the players for not learning from their mistakes/adjusting to things going wrong when their coach shows a complete inability to do the same?  It is no 8 in this tournament, but we were in a similar predicament in the World Cup Final where we were having to parachute in a scrumhalf.

Will anyone be surprised if Eddie picks Curry again at no 8 for the Scotland match despite all the evidence from the France match showing it was a bad idea?

I think the issue is hes not willing to pick players he thinks arent good enough to make the team better than it is already just incase. Its exactly the issue with fullbacks previously and 9s now. There will have to be someone different at 8 and 9 for the summer though as the core world cup players are being rested, so even the Curry experiment wont continue for Japan.
Jones does also seem to like his coaches work with smaller groups of players rather than having a 9 or 10 sitting around doing nothing when they are running game scenarios.
Sometimes this approach has worked out well, other times its leaving England looking exposed. Not having a proper A team and coaching for a wider elite squad probably doesnt help. Whoever is in the elite performance role now should be looking at this (as well as the problems its cause with not locking down players like Tompkins)

As it is a bunch of the summer tour players are likely to be coming from a very raw Under 20s side. May pay dividends in 3 years time but we could see a bit more pain with fill ins or players who are still learning their trade come Autumn.

I fully expect EJ to pick Curry at 8 again. I imagine we will see pretty much the same time other than enforced injury substitutions. 

My overriding memory from Sunday's game is seeing Curry take the ball at speed, on a great line, straight into 2 or 3 French tacklers, and driven into the ground or back a few metres. The poor lad couldn't do anything. He's an undersized 8, lacking the basic scrummaging skills, and lacking the mass to dent the line in the tight. He's an outstanding flanker and link man in the wider channels. Surely he was questioning it himself at times on the pitch?

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:05 pm

RDW wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Eejit wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:https://www.itv.com/six-nations/articles/jones-to-persevere-with-curry-at-number-eight-for-england

Yahoo

Banters getting a bit spicy on here

I’m sure the dancing emoticon wasn’t intended as celebrating someone getting hurt because that would be a dick move.

Also Tuilagi is a monstrous ball carrier, and not having him in the 23 knocking down tacklers like skittles changes how the game might otherwise have gone.

Devoto has been playing very well, and is a hard carrying , good handling 12. Not as ecplosive as Manu...but i think he would add alot to this midfield in terms of hard yards go forward.

I've been impressed with him whever I've seen him play in the AP. Not overly experienced at International level though?

He's also a 12 if I remember rightly. Reckon Ford will be dropped? he was much better than Farrell at the weekend!

Hes essentially a new cap but one of those players whos been on the fringes of wider squads before. Not a raw kid in the club game, hes played a lot in the EC, playoffs etc. Is he Englands first choice? No. Will he start 12? Probably not. Would a fit Tuillagi start regardless of whether Jones changes the midfield? Absolutely. He might well not have even been in the wider squad had Slade been fit. But he did get in ahead of Tompkins....

I personally expect England to go with Ford, Farrell, JJ to start with Devoto and Watson on the bench. But we will see.

Englands injury list is pretty long, so no excuses for Scotland and Townsend. Pressures all on them Whistle

Laugh

England's last 2 games have been awful performances. All joking aside I just can't see them making that 3 in a row and I think England will prove to be too strong in the end.

If Scotland can replicate the intensity in defence that they showed against Ireland in the first half for an extended spell in this upcoming game, they’ve got an excellent chance.

I reckon it’s close to 50-50.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:07 pm

This reminds me of an old discussion on how and when to introduce people. When should we have introduced the cover for vunipola. From recent memory shields and wilson were trialled and given the choices by Jones I wouldnhave expected Wilson to be the guy next in line. So now we have 2 guys injured when should he have blooded the 3rd. And so we now need further cover for a fair few positions when do we try those guys?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:This reminds me of an old discussion on how and when to introduce people. When should we have introduced the cover for vunipola. From recent memory shields and wilson were trialled and given the choices by Jones I wouldnhave expected Wilson to be the guy next in line. So now we have 2 guys injured when should he have blooded the 3rd. And so we now need further cover for a fair few positions when do we try those guys?

Wild idea you pick somebody at 8 who has played there before so either Hughes or Morgan, a short term pick perhaps but teams rarely progress by playing players out of position.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:17 pm

Devastating need of Manu being injured. One, you don’t want anyone to be injured. Two, Scotland players will want to play the best opposition they can.

However, Hamish Watson and Jamie Ritchie’s mother’s will be delighted about this
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Post by quinsforever on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:17 pm

i think i would have gone with Hughes at 8. he's playing well and he's a monster, and he's been in the squad before.

while my heart clearly says england, there is nothing about sunday's performance that gives me any kind of confidence we are going to win. there are no areas of the game where we have the kind of clear dominance that you need in order to come up with a gameplan with a high probability of success.

scrum with this slightly flawed new rule means there are going to be fewer penalties, and i'm not even sure we would be dominant there anyway.

lineout i just hope we dont get turned over too often.

ball carriers. none.

So let's hope there are a bunch of creative back moves that we havent seen yet that are going to be displayed this weekend. because without them, i think 50:50 is being optimistic...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:21 pm

And then it's as above soul that for short term Jones has preferred players who he knows and expects to be able to play to instruction.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:22 pm

tigertattie wrote:Devastating need of Manu being injured. One, you don’t want anyone to be injured. Two, Scotland players will want to play the best opposition they can.

However, Hamish Watson and Jamie Ritchie’s mother’s will be delighted about this

There is a lovely picture - I think its the Beeb - of Manu running at pace just before impact. The 3 French defenders who are up against him look like they are already falling over. He's such a terrific player when on form and its a tragedy that his career has been so curtailed by injury.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 3:04 pm

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/six-nations-quiz-time-scotland-v-england

13/15 (far and away highest I have ever got - though some lucky guesses)

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 3:21 pm

quinsforever wrote: i think 50:50 is being optimistic...

Well one thing I am sure of is that the 3/1 on Scotland to win on Saturday is very, very generous.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 3:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
lostinwales wrote:EJ has pretty much said hes' going to continue with the Curry at 8 experiment (unless he's just talking about evening meals)

England will have another "bulky carrier" if he has curry at 8 and 9 every week

On the plus side that would be someone who'd be used to running fast !

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 11:42 pm

What odds will you give me that this game turns into two bald men fighting over a comb?

Early days yet but the weather is down for near freezing with rain all day. Exciting times
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Post by bsando on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 7:36 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/04/england-eddie-jones-niggly-goading-scotland-six-nations

Oh that pesky Eddie Jones is at it again. I think Scotland will be happy to do their talking on the pitch.

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Post by RDW on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 7:41 am

bsando wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/04/england-eddie-jones-niggly-goading-scotland-six-nations

Oh that pesky Eddie Jones is at it again. I think Scotland will be happy to do their talking on the pitch.

That's pretty mild by EJ standard, and to be fair is pretty much correct!

His pre-match comments failed spectacularly against France so I hope he keeps talking!

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Post by demosthenes on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 8:43 am

tigertattie wrote:What odds will you give me that this game turns into two bald men fighting over a comb?

Early days yet but the weather is down for near freezing with rain all day. Exciting times

Currently sunny intervals occasional showers and 5-6 Deg. on the forecasts. But winds gusting to 50mph!

Box kicking, anyone?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 8:55 am

Jones probably also has the n** heads after his train journey in mind!

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:09 am

Gotta love Jones for stoking the fires.

Its been all too tame on here so it needs an injection of bampottery to liven things up.

Where is Jimbo by the way?

Its the calcutta match and I've never known there to be less build up. Is it a case of both teams are trying to stay under the rader (except Jones)

Whats happened up here? Is it a case of we're not firing so folk dont think we can "stick it to the English" or worse, England are not looking invincible so we're not strutting about like the wee dog in a fight talking about how folk shouldnt write us off?

This no clear favourite issue is starting to get bothersome!
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Post by RDW on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:26 am

Looks like some of the Scottish players haven't got the memo about letting Eddie do all the talking - Sam Johnson coming out with the "everyone hates England" line and Alan Dell saying EJ's comments pre-match against France "backfired".

I'd rather they all said nothing!

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:38 am

RDW wrote:Looks like some of the Scottish players haven't got the memo about letting Eddie do all the talking - Sam Johnson coming out with the "everyone hates England" line and Alan Dell saying EJ's comments pre-match against France "backfired".

I'd rather they all said nothing!


I saw quite an interesting interview with an NFL chap last week who was talking about the need to "create enemies" and how players sometimes need to build pressure on themselves to compete at full intensity, both to be aggressive toward the opposition ( who in some cases will be their friends) and also to avoid embarrassment of public failure. 
A lot of this smack talk isnt so much about winding the opposition up as much as getting the players themselves into an aggressive must win mindset. It does look pretty stupid when it doesn't come off, but thats part of how its supposed to instil a must win attitude. I see these comments from Scotland players about them reminding themselves this game matters, and whipping the fans up a bit to get behind their team. 

In Jones' case though it does come across a bit Gatland like that he cant influence things directly on the pitch so likes to wallow in the limelight off it and give the headline writers something to talk about. That does of course also help to double up in terms of shifting the medias talking points and not needing to go chasing the players for meaningless quotes to be taken out of context. 

Amongst the trolling (and responding to criticism form former players that hes not English  Rolling Eyes) hes also been refreshingly honest about the situation with the 8s and possible mistakes made in the build up to the France game. Jones hasn't been one to hide form the truth at least, or talk about "taking the positives" from duff performances. 

Does seem like the fans and media are turning on him a lot though, England have very short tolerance on "failure" and got through 4 heads in 3 world cup cycles before him. Personally Im willing to cut Jones a bit more slack with his longer term projects and judge England more on what happens at the AIs than in this tournament (unless they win it in which case they are the greatest team ever and England is the most glorious nation once again etc) .

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Post by RDW on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:45 am

What do England fans think would happen if they lost this game? Would it be full panic stations and 'Eddie must go' chat?

Badly losing a WC final, losing and playing like crap against France and Scotland getting 3 in a row Calcutta Cups is a bit of a disaster of a run of games, but even still it would be a knee jerk to sack him because of it IMO.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:53 am

RDW wrote:What do England fans think would happen if they lost this game? Would it be full panic stations and 'Eddie must go' chat?

Badly losing a WC final, losing and playing like crap against France and Scotland getting 3 in a row Calcutta Cups is a bit of a disaster of a run of games, but even still it would be a knee jerk to sack him because of it IMO.

It would be concerning times, but EJ could rescue himself with wins in the final three games.

He’s still got credit in the bank from reaching the World Cup final.

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Post by bsando on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:53 am

In terms of the lack of build up, I think both sets of fans are probably equally nervous. Scotland know if they lose this one its a potential Wooden Spoon decider away next up and England know if they lose this one any chance of the 6N title will be gone with 2nd or 3rd the best outcome.

I'm out of the loop with this Curry is an 8 decision. When did EJ decide this was a good idea? Does Curry play 8 at club level often? I think it is bonkers personally. England could have so many incredible backrow combinations, Lawes, Underhill and Curry seems pretty far down the list of good combinations in my opinion. I rate Lawes as a player, but always think he does best in the 2nd row. It would be like Scotland fielding 6) Skinner, 7) Ritchie and 8) Watson. All fantastic players but that would be a terrible way to utilise them.

Saying that, I think Tuilagi is not a huge loss for England. He is unbelievable when he is getting ball in attack but I think Joseph or Devoto could cause Scotland more problems. The Scottish defence looked pretty vulnerable at times when Ireland went wide but they didn't go wide as much as I had expected. Scotland had some good scramble defence but against an on song English backline they'll likely concede tries.

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Post by Tramptastic on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:02 am

The thing is its not unheard of: 6. Fardy 7. Hooper 8. Pocock was a world cup that dragged australia to a world cup final. However, it only works if the rest of the team balances it.

So if Lawes, Underhill and Curry are the back row, the defense, turnovers and link play is really good but the basic brutal ball carrying suffers. This could be offset by the inclusion of Mako Vunipola, Tuilagi, Cockanisiga but as we saw Vunipola wasnt picked, Tuilagi got injured early on and cockanisiga was injured pre-tournament so their was no available players to offset the ball carrying deficiency in the back row.

It's the same reason why I think Scotland have struggled since Dunbar stopped getting picked, there was no one in the back line who could just make the hard yards when needed, there has been no balance in our back line. Scott might remedy this has he's a good direct runner but outside of him we lack a wee bit.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:03 am

Time to drop Farrell.

I haven't seen him play well in an England shirt for a very long time and is not a Captain IMHO.

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Post by RDW on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:08 am

TightHEAD wrote:Time to drop Farrell.

I haven't seen him play well in an England shirt for a very long time and is not a Captain IMHO.

I think the issue is he's not a 12! His influence is much more limited when he plays there.

He needs to play 10 IMO.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:12 am

RDW wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Time to drop Farrell.

I haven't seen him play well in an England shirt for a very long time and is not a Captain IMHO.

I think the issue is he's not a 12! His influence is much more limited when he plays there.

He needs to play 10 IMO.

There's this feeling that he needs to be on the pitch but ultimately Ford is a better 10 and he has had multiple meltdowns in the past 12 months.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:14 am

Farrell is not a 12 (though can do a job there), but Eddie falls into the same mistake many coaches do of trying to shoehorn his best 15 players into the team. This means we have a lock at 6, a flanker at 8, a FH at 12, a 13 at wing or FB.


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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:17 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
RDW wrote:
I think the issue is he's not a 12! His influence is much more limited when he plays there.

He needs to play 10 IMO.

There's this feeling that he needs to be on the pitch but ultimately Ford is a better 10 and he has had multiple meltdowns in the past 12 months.

You can clearly see that the England players want to impress Farrell. He has an aura about him that earns loyalty - however he is too fired up to make being the captain work. It should be Ford or Farrell - but that then means Eddie has to solve the issue of who will play in the centre. I am biased but view Ford as a better 10 than Farrell but my opinion is worth diddly squat.

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Post by quinsforever on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:20 am

even though most seem to disagree with Eddie, i do like that he sticks to his guns and has a plan and takes responsibility for it...from Guardian interview

"The home team, meanwhile, may be encouraged that Jones, with a six‑day turnaround to negotiate, has not added a specialist No 8 to his squad and is standing by his long-term plan for Tom Curry to occupy that crucial position. “Sometimes you invest in players that you know are going to be better than the players you’ve got at the moment,” he said. “Tom Curry is an example. We feel like he can be a great No 8. There are areas of his game that have to improve but we’re prepared to invest in him. We see the game going in that direction.”

"Listening to the contrasting views of those outside his inner circle is, to Jones’s mind, a complete waste of time. “When I first started coaching a very famous coach said to me that if you listen to the fans you end up in the grandstand with them. That’s always been my philosophy.”


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Post by RDW on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:20 am

Would be interesting to see how England would work without Farrell - Ford running the show at 10 and a proper 12/13 combo.

You never know he could end up eating some dodgy haggis on Friday and pull out of the game!

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:33 am

Gooseberry wrote:... 
A lot of this smack talk isnt so much about winding the opposition up as much as getting the players themselves into an aggressive must win mindset. It does look pretty stupid when it doesn't come off, but thats part of how its supposed to instil a must win attitude. I see these comments from Scotland players about them reminding themselves this game matters, and whipping the fans up a bit to get behind their team. 
...

I remember reading a book about British troops in Afghanistan and how they would still fix bayonets before an assault. It's not that they actually expect to use them but does certainly build a mindset.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 10:35 am

Tramptastic wrote:The thing is its not unheard of: 6. Fardy 7. Hooper 8. Pocock was a world cup that dragged australia to a world cup final. However, it only works if the rest of the team balances it.

So if Lawes, Underhill and Curry are the back row, the defense, turnovers and link play is really good but the basic brutal ball carrying suffers. This could be offset by the inclusion of Mako Vunipola, Tuilagi, Cockanisiga but as we saw Vunipola wasnt picked, Tuilagi got injured early on and cockanisiga was injured pre-tournament so their was no available players to offset the ball carrying deficiency in the back row.

....

I agree completely and made much the same comment post England France. It's all that plus some lack of speed/wit at 9.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 12:07 pm

I still don't understand why you select a No9 who is bottom of the league barring a points deduction.

I have seen U10s players show more composer under pressure, that netball pass into touch!!!!!!
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Post by reallybored on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 12:27 pm

If the pack can produce a similar level of performance that they did in Dublin, I'd be confident we can get a good result.

Only changes I'd like to see is Bradbury for Haining and Steyn for Harris on the bench.

Ideally Townsend will use his bench a bit earlier this week, felt like introducing CDP, Horne & Hutchinson earlier could have made a difference.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 12:47 pm

Im expecting a loss for England this weekend. The Scots never have a problem being aggressive and up for this one....and we clearly have little aggressive heavy duty carrying ability.

Could be a long day for England...

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 12:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im expecting a loss for England this weekend. The Scots never have a problem being aggressive and up for this one....and we clearly have little aggressive heavy duty carrying ability.

Could be a long day for England...

I don't know. You could argue both teams have similar problems. No real cutting edge.

There is May on one side vs Hogg on the other. Hogg seems up for it but not as dangerous as he used to be. May is most definitely on form.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 1:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:... 
A lot of this smack talk isnt so much about winding the opposition up as much as getting the players themselves into an aggressive must win mindset. It does look pretty stupid when it doesn't come off, but thats part of how its supposed to instil a must win attitude. I see these comments from Scotland players about them reminding themselves this game matters, and whipping the fans up a bit to get behind their team. 
...

I remember reading a book about British troops in Afghanistan and how they would still fix bayonets before an assault. It's not that they actually expect to use them but does certainly build a mindset.

We did expect to use them and we hoped we could get close enough to use them and I can assure you, we used them.

If you've got a bayonet, its another means of killing at your disposal, why wouldn't you expect to use it. It didn't give me a psychological edge personally. I wonder who wrote the book - probably RAF Regt :-)


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Post by tigertattie on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 1:02 pm

The problem with England is the pack. The physicality and the raw power at the breakdown.

Something you normally associate with England is currently lacking.

Johnny May on the other hand, not know for his physicality, is in blistering form and his two tries at the weekend were sublime to say the least. Skill and raw pace.

England may fall into the old trap of their tactic being purely "get the ball to May ASAP"
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 2:10 pm

I wonder what Diamond is thinking about all this Curry at 8 malarky. Does he not get a say in how his best flanker is moving to 8??

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Post by RDW on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 2:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder what Diamond is thinking about all this Curry at 8 malarky. Does he not get a say in how his best flanker is moving to 8??
I think the chances of Curry playing 8 for Sale other than in emergencies is pretty slim.

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