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Scotland V England - The Calcutta Cup

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Post by RDW on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 8:35 am

First topic message reminder :

GUINNESS SIX NATIONS 2020
8 FEB 2020
BT MURRAYFIELD
KICK-OFF 4:45 PM




Past results


201013 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England15–15MurrayfieldEdinburgh633915
201113 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England22–17TwickenhamLondon643915
20124 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England6–13MurrayfieldEdinburgh653915
20132 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England38–18TwickenhamLondon663915
20148 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England0–20MurrayfieldEdinburgh673915
201514 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England25–13TwickenhamLondon683915
20166 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England9–15[2]MurrayfieldEdinburgh693915
201711 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_England.svg England61–21[3]TwickenhamLondon703915
201824 FebruaryScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg Scotland25–13[4]MurrayfieldEdinburgh704015
201916 MarchScotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg Scotland38–38TwickenhamLondon704016
Teams

Scotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 HP7hDa92HluFnAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
TBC


Scotland V England - The Calcutta Cup - Page 12 OZiWAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC


Furbank; May, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Heinz; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Itoje, Ludlam, Underhill, Curry

Replacements: Dunn, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Lawes, Earl, Youngs, Devoto

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Post by RDW on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 10:37 am

From a Scottish perspective I'm also massively concerned that's two games and no tries. Good thing we've got Italy next..

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 10:38 am

If Finn Russell comes back in and makes Scotland sing sweeter in their remaining games....... will the stubbornness of both Russell and Townsend be seen for the petty "rules is rules" nonsense that it is and that possibly cost them a good position in this season when quite a few Nations look off colour.

The only rule for a Nation at this time of year is to get its best players on the field to win important games.  All sides know how important and what a difference it can make to have that one or two 'special' players fit and ready to go.  Doesn't always mean sunshine but it predicts better times than being without them.  When they are injured - fate.  When they have been banned for slight camp infringements - dumb.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 10:39 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would challenge any side in the world to impress in those conditions so forgive me if I completely dismiss the wum comments from the usual individuals.

Bar a 10min spell in the 2nd half, I thought we controlled things well and did what we needed to do in truly dire weather. Scotland never really looked like scoring and we missed a fair few chances at goal to make the final scoreline more reflective of this.

May had a good game again and Ford on the whole directed very well, although we struggled to get to grips with the wind behind us for too long in reality. Curry carried well in traffic but isn't really the answer at 8 (we all seem to know this).

Scotland just never really got into the game or when they did they looked a bit toothless. Tough conditions for them as they're not the biggest side, although I do think they look like a decent outfit despite the calls for Townsend's head.

I watched the Wales/Ireland game and they both look like they're going through transition... with neither looking that impressive tbh and you would expect us to beat both fairly comfortably at home.

I think you lads have been listening to Eddie Jones a bit too much. I fully expect England to be better at home and are always tough there but not sure why you are kidding yourself, they have not been good at all.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 10:49 am

My greatest concern is that once again Farrell failed to show any real on field leadership, the players still look up to him, but he is living on past glories. He is not the best 12 in England and he is not the best 10 at the moment.

I think a short spell of reflection and a chance to get his head back in place would do him good, the RWC final defeat and the Sarries issues seem to have damaged his ability to think quick and make the right decisions, it's almost like he is scared to take the responsibility to change the plan even when he sees it is not working.

An injection of bulk or guile and speed is needed, he has neither. If JJ is playing 13 either a lump or someone with very quick feet and pace off the mark is needed to hold defenses.At the moment they know they can drift early as Farrell has neither the bulk to trouble them of the agility to go around them.

Until Manu is fit again or Manu II is discovered we need a change.


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Post by Heaf on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 11:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Control hasn't been a thing for years now hence all these tries scored when a hand scraped down the side of the ball, bizarre if you ask me.

Control has never been a thing, except in commentators heads and hence fans believing it is a thing.


Completely correct - but made worse by some refs/TMOs saying "lost control" when they mean dropped or knocked-on ...

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Post by Heaf on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 11:53 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would challenge any side in the world to impress in those conditions so forgive me if I completely dismiss the wum comments from the usual individuals.

Bar a 10min spell in the 2nd half, I thought we controlled things well and did what we needed to do in truly dire weather. Scotland never really looked like scoring and we missed a fair few chances at goal to make the final scoreline more reflective of this.

May had a good game again and Ford on the whole directed very well, although we struggled to get to grips with the wind behind us for too long in reality. Curry carried well in traffic but isn't really the answer at 8 (we all seem to know this).

Scotland just never really got into the game or when they did they looked a bit toothless. Tough conditions for them as they're not the biggest side, although I do think they look like a decent outfit despite the calls for Townsend's head.

I watched the Wales/Ireland game and they both look like they're going through transition... with neither looking that impressive tbh and you would expect us to beat both fairly comfortably at home.

I think you lads have been listening to Eddie Jones a bit too much. I fully expect England to be better at home and are always tough there but not sure why you are kidding yourself, they have not been good at all.

Not disagreeing that England haven't been great so far, but no team has really shone so far IMO. Ireland were better yesterday but were also fairly poor against Scotland only managing the same winning margin as England whilst playing at home. The thing about the 6N is you often see completely different performances from one week to the next - at least that's what I'm hoping for ...

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 12:03 pm

Well I agree Ireland were poor v Scotland but I dont think many Ireland fans were saying things like we were clearly the better side etc. (we werent). England probably will beat Ireland in Twickers and maybe Wales too but it is definitely less a certainty now.

For me England arent winning the collisions and breakdown as much as they were last year, they are much less dominant and therefore beatable.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 12:09 pm

I don't think either Scotland or England were clearly the better side yesterday, although overall I do think England edged it with better tactics for the weather and fewer errors.

And England certainly do need to get better - Curry at 8 is still a worry ...

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 12:11 pm

Heaf wrote:I don't think either Scotland or England were clearly the better side yesterday, although overall I do think England edged it with better tactics for the weather and fewer errors.  

And England certainly do need to get better - Curry at 8 is still a worry ...

Both Ireland and England are playing a 6 at 8 and its not working for either IMO

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 2:22 pm

Having watched so many attritional mudfests when England have travelled to the wild rains of Murrayfield in the past, and lost, I thought that was an ok performance. Apart from the 3rd quarter when England’s kickers forgot the laws of physics and how the wind can affect the trajectory of the ball (Scotland’s hooker did the same), I thought we were reasonably comfortable winners. In such a game all that matters is the win. Also the after-game interview. And Genge won us both.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 7:02 pm

Watching that game in the stands was an utterly miserable experience. Conditions were beyond horrific, and the players struggled badly. Took both sides a bit too long to figure out what to do, and the Scotland lineout could hardly have been worse (a long term issue exacerbated by the weather).

I haven't read the thread, and I'm sure this has been covered, but I was disappointed in the manner in which my Scottish brethren booed and whistled during the kicks. I have no love for Owen Farrell, but I don't like to see that under any circumstances.

Looks like another disappointing campaign for us Scots to endure.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 7:34 pm

I am fairly ambivalent on the booing front, as I don't think it bothers the kickers one bit. I don't do it when I go to live games, but others do and not just at Murrayfield.

Farrell does take to long with his kicks though, usually over the allotted minute. Unfortunately refs chose not to referee this aspect of play and so he gets away with that. I saw someone tweeting about this today and had a timer on him, the booing does not really get going until he is already over his time.

The answer is simple, put a clock up on the screen and count the time down. I believe they do this in French league games. No-one can argue with it then.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 7:47 pm

I've not read through all this thread, but I think it has to be the final straw for Toonie. I've not been calling for his head, but this game showed he's not cut out for top level coaching.

In the first half we watched England struggle with box kicking into the wind, whilst our kicks overshot their mark, and yet in the 2nd half we didn't learn from that and just continued to kick into the wind.

That game was set up perfectly for a forward orientated 'up the jumper' approach. Pick and goes all day long, and instead we just kept repeating the same mistakes time and time again.

I just can't understand, why they persisted with this approach when it was categorically not working.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 8:19 pm

In those conditions though, it was just not possible to play multi phase ball. Every time we tried it, we went three or four phases then someone dropped it or we got turned over. Against that England pack, it was just never going to work.

We kicked, as they did, in the hope that the receiver would make a mistake and gift us field position and/or a try.

The one try of the match did come indirectly from such a kick.

The final reckoning for Toonie will come over the next three games, not a lottery like Saturday.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 8:29 pm

Kicking was a massive lottery, the ball was overshooting the mark constantly (see England's numerous kicks out on the full in the 2nd half) or coming right back into players faces when kicking into the wind. It wasn't a day for it, and considering our line out was malfunctioning massively there was no benefit in kicking for touch either.

We rarely tried setting up pods and slowly making our way up the pitch.

However, and I guess my main point, is we watched England kick into the wind in the first half and saw the ball end up exactly where it started after getting caught in the wind, and yet we followed exactly the same tactic. It wasn't working for us and it to repeat it again and again was terrible.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 8:42 pm

What was going to work in those conditions realistically?

Neither side really worked it out and that was because it was almost impossible to do so.

Most of those players will probably never play in a match like that again in their careers. Brian Moore tweeted that it was almost unplayable and if old school guys like that are saying so, that's a good indication.

Put that one down to experience, we got beaten by one score, following an unlucky bounce. against a very good team. The conditions were a lottery.

Where we are as a team will be decided in the next three games and hopefully the conditions will do us a favour.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 9:03 pm

Not kicking it up in the air for one, this was proven several times throughout the game.

As I said playing a forward orientated game, setting up pods and slowly making up ground. I'm not saying that it would have been significantly more successful, but it couldn't have been much worse.

It just looked like we had no idea what to do and just kept persisting with a tactic that wasn't working.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 9:15 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:Not kicking it up in the air for one, this was proven several times throughout the game

It just looked like we had no idea what to do and just kept persisting with a tactic that wasn't working.

England did essentially this and won.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 10:00 pm

BigGee wrote:I am fairly ambivalent on the booing front, as I don't think it bothers the kickers one bit. I don't do it when I go to live games, but others do and not just at Murrayfield.

Farrell does take to long with his kicks though, usually over the allotted minute. Unfortunately refs chose not to referee this aspect of play and so he gets away with that. I saw someone tweeting about this today and had a timer on him, the booing does not really get going until he is already over his time.

The answer is simple, put a clock up on the screen and count the time down. I believe they do this in French league games. No-one can argue with it then.

Great point

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 11:15 pm

The kicker has 60 seconds from the time they indicate a shot at goal to take the kick.

Refs need to follow this rule

But the booing at Murrayfield started before the 60secs was up.

Also, in relation to how to play on that wind, it’s easy. With the wind at your back you kick for the corners with the wind in your face, you keep kicks to a minimum and when you do kick, kick hard and low or grubber the thing.

Scotland completely fell apart in this regard

I’ve seen national league teams cope with conditions better than these pro players did on Saturday.
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Post by Guest on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 7:47 am

I think the wind was swirling which makes it difficult.

Kicking was the only option. Long passes got caught on the wind in all games this weekend. Short passes help the opposition defence and there's a high risk of knocking on and getting caught behind the gainline.

Better kicking and better targeting of space and weak players and better kick chase was the option for both teams. Scotland in particular should have used speculative kicks in England's 22 like Ford did which led to Hogg fumbling and England's try. Kicking decided the game.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 8:44 am

The wind was fairly consistent in its direction, it was with Scotland in the 1st half and against them in the 2nd.  You could see this with the box kicks both teams tried.  In the 1st half England were getting them right back in their face and the same in the 2nd half with Scotland.

There may be some some swirling as well, but that was the main direction, and I can't see how when you know kicking the ball up in the air, it's is going to come directly back at you, or potentially behind you, is a good plan.  If you need to kick as tattie said try and keep it low.

I'm also not saying don't kick at all, but England struggled with box kicking in the first half with the wind in their face and we rightly kicked with the wind at our back.  In the 2nd half England had the wind and got their try through kicking (with the wind behind them) we should not have been trying to box kick when it was plainly not working.

Gooseberry - yes England kicked and won, but they did nothing in the first half with the wind blowing at them, however when they had the wind at their back they rightly kicked and this led to the try.  It's the kicking into the wind that I have an issue with, as it plainly didn't work for England in the first half, so why did we do exactly the same thing in the second half.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 9:22 am

Heaf wrote:I don't think either Scotland or England were clearly the better side yesterday, although overall I do think England edged it with better tactics for the weather and fewer errors.  

And England certainly do need to get better - Curry at 8 is still a worry ...

England certainly weren't clearly the better side, but I do think we controlled the game and never really look threatened. Taking in the conditions and Scotland at home, that's a fair result. I expect us to beat Ireland relatively easily, with the Wales game closer.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 9:37 am

BigGee wrote:I am fairly ambivalent on the booing front, as I don't think it bothers the kickers one bit. I don't do it when I go to live games, but others do and not just at Murrayfield.

Farrell does take to long with his kicks though, usually over the allotted minute. Unfortunately refs chose not to referee this aspect of play and so he gets away with that. I saw someone tweeting about this today and had a timer on him, the booing does not really get going until he is already over his time.

The answer is simple, put a clock up on the screen and count the time down. I believe they do this in French league games. No-one can argue with it then.

Not just the booing:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/scotland-vs-england-six-nations-2020-team-member-hit-by-bottle-video-neil-craig-eddie-jones-a9325296.html


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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 9:40 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
BigGee wrote:I am fairly ambivalent on the booing front, as I don't think it bothers the kickers one bit. I don't do it when I go to live games, but others do and not just at Murrayfield.

Farrell does take to long with his kicks though, usually over the allotted minute. Unfortunately refs chose not to referee this aspect of play and so he gets away with that. I saw someone tweeting about this today and had a timer on him, the booing does not really get going until he is already over his time.

The answer is simple, put a clock up on the screen and count the time down. I believe they do this in French league games. No-one can argue with it then.

Not just the booing:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/scotland-vs-england-six-nations-2020-team-member-hit-by-bottle-video-neil-craig-eddie-jones-a9325296.html


There's other videos that strongly suggest that it was the blown by the wind rather than thrown.  Whilst the behaviour of some fans making 'gestures' isn't ideal, I don't think anything was actually thrown.

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Post by RDW on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 9:50 am

Aye there's a video showing it fall from the stairs above, roll around on top of the bus in the wind then fall onto him below.

Would have to be the best shot ever if that was deliberate!

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:33 am

RDW wrote:Aye there's a video showing it fall from the stairs above, roll around on top of the bus in the wind then fall onto him below.

Would have to be the best shot ever if that was deliberate!

Even with the most rose tinted glasses (English rose), you can see this is a bottle that is blowing around in the strong wind.

The uninformed idiot that posted the video online saying a bottle was “thrown”, the independent who then put it on their site, and Eddie Jones all need to make a public apology to the SRU and it's fans.

In turn the SRU should make a public apology for the ersewipes in the video booing England and making various hand gestures towards them.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:36 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Heaf wrote:I don't think either Scotland or England were clearly the better side yesterday, although overall I do think England edged it with better tactics for the weather and fewer errors.  

And England certainly do need to get better - Curry at 8 is still a worry ...

England certainly weren't clearly the better side, but I do think we controlled the game and never really look threatened. Taking in the conditions and Scotland at home, that's a fair result. I expect us to beat Ireland relatively easily, with the Wales game closer.

It could be all set up for an upset. Unless England are significantly better than Ireland as they were in 2002 England's overconfidence v Ireland tends to their undoing. This England side arent anywhere as good without a fully fit Vunapola and to a lesser extent Tuilagi.

In fairness when they are at home they should be favorites but Ireland are on a roll now and wont fear them at all.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:40 am

I think at present there ll be comfortable home wins for England and wales.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:40 am

And someone should apologise for mentioning the word 'hate'?

I don't know.  It wasn't thrown so really the rest of it is the pantomime beauty of hard rugby rivalries.  If people have to go around apologising for verbal abuse, hand signals and screams of 'hate' during rugby games then a lot of Irish families need to be separated from each other for safety purposes as rugby language, signals and rivalries is Mild indeed in rugby when compared to village v village 'hatred' running through GAA for example.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:46 am

EWT Spoons wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
BigGee wrote:I am fairly ambivalent on the booing front, as I don't think it bothers the kickers one bit. I don't do it when I go to live games, but others do and not just at Murrayfield.

Farrell does take to long with his kicks though, usually over the allotted minute. Unfortunately refs chose not to referee this aspect of play and so he gets away with that. I saw someone tweeting about this today and had a timer on him, the booing does not really get going until he is already over his time.

The answer is simple, put a clock up on the screen and count the time down. I believe they do this in French league games. No-one can argue with it then.

Not just the booing:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/scotland-vs-england-six-nations-2020-team-member-hit-by-bottle-video-neil-craig-eddie-jones-a9325296.html


There's other videos that strongly suggest that it was the blown by the wind rather than thrown.  Whilst the behaviour of some fans making 'gestures' isn't ideal, I don't think anything was actually thrown.

The gestures really are quite sad.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think at present there ll be comfortable home wins for England and wales.

That sounds a bit like wishful thinking as both Ireland and France are ahead of England on the table?

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:50 am

England still a Very Good side.  Just are.  But they are trying to maintain standards.  Jones might paint it otherwise but basically, they've achieved a level and the struggle now is to maintain it.

That's a different task to the one Farrell has.  He's actively trying to increase Ireland's threat level and fast.  He has a lot of work over the next few weeks but I suspect that work will be more productive and enjoyable now for this Irish squad that look eager to 'learn' again after the fall into a stagnancy in Joe's final season.

England can still produce a top game close to their best 2019 standards.  We're none of us fools.  We know what they can still be if they get a groove going.  But Ireland certainly now have the potential to improve quite a bit over the next few weeks of togetherness as they consolidate good bits and remain eager to practice and practice the newer bits.

Of course England will be favourites.  But Irish players released from Schmidt's exacting cage are a promising bunch into the next few years.

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Post by RDW on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:51 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
BigGee wrote:I am fairly ambivalent on the booing front, as I don't think it bothers the kickers one bit. I don't do it when I go to live games, but others do and not just at Murrayfield.

Farrell does take to long with his kicks though, usually over the allotted minute. Unfortunately refs chose not to referee this aspect of play and so he gets away with that. I saw someone tweeting about this today and had a timer on him, the booing does not really get going until he is already over his time.

The answer is simple, put a clock up on the screen and count the time down. I believe they do this in French league games. No-one can argue with it then.

Not just the booing:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/scotland-vs-england-six-nations-2020-team-member-hit-by-bottle-video-neil-craig-eddie-jones-a9325296.html


There's other videos that strongly suggest that it was the blown by the wind rather than thrown.  Whilst the behaviour of some fans making 'gestures' isn't ideal, I don't think anything was actually thrown.

The gestures really are quite sad.

They are embarrassing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:52 am

I'm hoping you go the opposite way for predictions then collapse! In all seriousness though the 6 nations table doesnt reflect much in terms of those 2 games.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm hoping you go the opposite way for predictions then collapse! In all seriousness though the 6 nations table doesnt reflect much in terms of those 2 games.

I havent made any predictions yet, ill wait to see the teams. 6 nations is often (not always) won by a team that picks up momentum early on. This will in many ways be Irelands cup final on Sunday because if they win its likely albeit not definitive that they will win the six nations. Im obviously hoping that will be the case.

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Post by Old Man on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:17 am

SecretFly wrote:England still a Very Good side.  Just are.  But they are trying to maintain standards.  Jones might paint it otherwise but basically, they've achieved a level and the struggle now is to maintain it.

That's a different task to the one Farrell has.  He's actively trying to increase Ireland's threat level and fast.  He has a lot of work over the next few weeks but I suspect that work will be more productive and enjoyable now for this Irish squad that look eager to 'learn' again after the fall into a stagnancy in Joe's final season.

England can still produce a top game close to their best 2019 standards.  We're none of us fools.  We know what they can still be if they get a groove going.  But Ireland certainly now have the potential to improve quite a bit over the next few weeks of togetherness as they consolidate good bits and remain eager to practice and practice the newer bits.

Of course England will be favourites.  But Irish players released from Schmidt's exacting cage are a promising bunch into the next few years.

Yes, I agree England is a very good side, but I can’t help thinking Eddie Jones’ comments about being the best team eva is pressuring the players. They somehow seem tense.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:19 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I think at present there ll be comfortable home wins for England and wales.

That sounds a bit like wishful thinking as both Ireland and France are ahead of England on the table?

Ireland and France have both had two home fixtures so far - does make a massive difference to the table.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I think at present there ll be comfortable home wins for England and wales.

That sounds a bit like wishful thinking as both Ireland and France are ahead of England on the table?

Ireland and France have both had two home fixtures so far - does make a massive difference to the table.

Also makes quite a difference to Grand Slam hopes.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I think at present there ll be comfortable home wins for England and wales.

That sounds a bit like wishful thinking as both Ireland and France are ahead of England on the table?

Ireland and France have both had two home fixtures so far - does make a massive difference to the table.

Exactly. England are still favourites to win the Six Nations with the bookmakers and, with the tough away trips out of the way, with good reason too.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:31 am

... but still have to play the games to find out.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:47 am

SecretFly wrote:... but still have to play the games to find out.

Dammit. It's so much easier on paper.

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Post by Guest on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:50 am

SecretFly wrote:And someone should apologise for mentioning the word 'hate'?

I don't know.  It wasn't thrown so really the rest of it is the pantomime beauty of hard rugby rivalries.  If people have to go around apologising for verbal abuse, hand signals and screams of 'hate' during rugby games then a lot of Irish families need to be separated from each other for safety purposes as rugby language, signals and rivalries is Mild indeed in rugby when compared to village v village 'hatred' running through GAA for example.

Does any of this 'hate' take place outside social media or the media in general though? I wonder how many people take those as their windows to the world.

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Post by Guest on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:56 am

It would be surprising for England to win given they have Wales and Ireland to come even if they are at home. Given Ireland's style of rugby and their bonus point yesterday, if you are the kind to wager your money on sport, then they would be the one to go for.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 12:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I think at present there ll be comfortable home wins for England and wales.

That sounds a bit like wishful thinking as both Ireland and France are ahead of England on the table?

Ireland and France have both had two home fixtures so far - does make a massive difference to the table.

Exactly. England are still favourites to win the Six Nations with the bookmakers and, with the tough away trips out of the way, with good reason too.

Having home fixtures of course makes a difference but as we saw last year with Wales it can send sides on a roll which can lead to big wins.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 12:26 pm

guestalt_physicality wrote:It would be surprising for England to win given they have Wales and Ireland to come even if they are at home. Given Ireland's style of rugby and their bonus point yesterday, if you are the kind to wager your money on sport, then they would be the one to go for.

Can’t see Ireland beating France or England this year with both games being on the road.

England will be strong favourites for all three of their remaining games.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 10 Feb 2020, 12:28 pm

guestalt_physicality wrote:
SecretFly wrote:And someone should apologise for mentioning the word 'hate'?

I don't know.  It wasn't thrown so really the rest of it is the pantomime beauty of hard rugby rivalries.  If people have to go around apologising for verbal abuse, hand signals and screams of 'hate' during rugby games then a lot of Irish families need to be separated from each other for safety purposes as rugby language, signals and rivalries is Mild indeed in rugby when compared to village v village 'hatred' running through GAA for example.

Does any of this 'hate' take place outside social media or the media in general though? I wonder how many people take those as their windows to the world.

I think ...someone.... perhaps the media + social media - someone somewhere takes the wisdom of the human being for granted for some reason.  Now it seems, all of a sudden, humanity needs constant life lessons and rules from society watchdogs ( self appointed ones in media and social media).

Mostly though, most humans are smart people.  They know when hate is a game to colour rivalries and make competitive memories sweeter.  It's the human condition.  Humans know when they are acting parts mostly and mostly go to work the next day and have a good laugh with representatives of people they pretended to 'hate' at the weekend for sporting purposes.

Humanity is smart folks.  They self police to surive within the societies they are in.  And that's very lucky for my neighbour who throws his hedge clippings my side of the hedge! mad Whistle

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 12:41 am

Do we need to change captain?

Farrell is a great player in poor form imo at the moment. And that seems to mean he lacks confidence in the team so we end up kicking too much, and he takes it on himself to kick at goal too often. Happened on the weekend and it's happened before. We need a captain who is brave enough to call for the line out or scrum, but always go for goal even when it's not on.

Another game where I thought Ford out shone Farrel in all parts of fly half play. I would love for Eddie to play Ford at 10 with two actual centers.

Speaking of which JJ looked off form or still carrying a niggle as he never stretched his legs, opted to ship dodgy passes and put others under pressure. I wonder if he isn't fully fit.

Heinz had a good first half, second was very poor. Just stupid really.

The forwards won that game for us, all were class and it was great to see baby rhino score. That Scots player is lucky he was held back afterwards too...

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 1:00 am

I don't think Farrell is so much out of form as struggling to impose himself on games due to odd selection and tactics. The last two weeks England have been struggling with game management yet one of the best fly-halves in the world at managing a game has been stood at 12 seeing relatively little time on the ball.

I've said a few times but I don't like the Ford-Farrell axis without Manu at 13. When we had the huge unbeaten run there were more carriers in the back three than currently, Teo as an effective bench impact option and the pack consistently on top. Without Manu at 13 to straighten the line I think that 10.Ford 12.Farrell needs an armchair ride to utilise both playmakers.

If Manu isn't fit then I'd like to see 10.Farrell 12.Devoto 13.Joseph/Daly as I think it offers more balance. Asking Farrell to run crash ball at set defences is wasting his ability as a fly-half. Harsh on Ford as I thought he was good against Scotland and his form for Tigers has been excellent but Farrell is frequently at the centre of England's best performances.

I found it infuriating when 4 kicks went out on the full on Saturday. Two were from Heinz, one apiece from Ford and Daly. Farrell has one of the best boots in world rugby and wasn't in place to use it whilst the game plan was going down.

The Ford-Farrell axis has seen a lot of success and against the right opposition I think it's a useful tactical option. It was outstanding against NZ when we needed to starve them of possession in our own half for instance. Against Aus, Manu and Slade in the midfield worked much better to nullify Kerevi. With Manu, Watson, Nowell and Cokanasiga all injured I just don't think it's the right tactical option.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 7:17 am

Heinz kicked 3 put on the full in short succession but yea I get all your points there King.

Your right about the horses for courses approach, sometimes to 10s is very useful. But at the moment it's not working at all and imo Ford is playing well enough to get to show what he can do without the safety net of Farrell.

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