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2021 - 5 who will, 5 who won't

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 01 Jan 2021, 12:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to 2021 - here's hoping it will be a much better year for all, and Boxing will be back - with crowds! Time to do the usual who will/who won't predictions.

5 who will:

1. Ryan Garcia. Genuinely believe that this kid has it all. Yes there's a lot of hype but he's proved it with every obstacle thrown at him. I think he will walk through Luke Campbell.

2. Saul "Canelo" Alvarez. Continues to beat all in front of him. Picks up the IBF belt by practically decapitating Caleb Plant.

3. Tim Tszyu. Gets his WBO shot late in the year and obliterates Teixeira. Definitely a chip off the old block. Wants to set up a unification bout with Jermell Charlo.

4. Josh Taylor. Gets his meaningful 4 belt fight against Ramirez and continues to impress, beating him in a lopsided UD. Hopes for a huge fight against Teofimo Lopez in 2022.

5. Artur Beterbiev continues to chase belts in the Light Heavyweight division and goes after Bivol. Doesn't get him, but knocks out mandatory Fanlong Meng and Deines in brutal fashion. Edit: once he's recovered from Covid!!

5 who wont

1. Andy Ruiz Jr. Has had his moment of glory. Has a couple of fights at close to 280lbs against no-hope opposition. Nobody cares. His trainer leaves him because Fat Andy won't train.

2. Billy Joe Saunders. Makes another stupid video in the build up to a potential Canelo fight - he then doesn't get the fight.

3. Gennadiy Golovkin. Continues to rack up meaningless IBF contender defences. Charlo and Canelo are not interested.

4. Carl Frampton. Quickly realises that he's out of his depth against Jamel Herring and his corner retire him after 8 rounds. Announces his retirement shortly afterwards.

5. Gervonta Davis. On the cusp of landing a superfight against Lopez, gets arrested for starting a brawl outside a bar. Legal issues keep him out of the ring for several months.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 07 Nov 2021, 10:49 am

Joe Louis was also 6"2 not 5"8, so not sure what relevance there is to them having a similar chest size. Tysons biceps were 18.5 compared to 14 for Alvarez, picking and choosing measurements doesn't prove a point.

We could plump for neck measurements;

Mayweather: 16.5
Alvarez: 16
Tyson: 20

Reach

Alvarez: 70.5
Froch: 75
Kessler: 74
Calzaghe: 73

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Post by kingraf Sun 07 Nov 2021, 11:41 am

Its not picking and choosing. You can build more muscle around the neck than the wrist. Same story for your bicep measurement. Your wrist and ankle measurement are better indicators of joint size and therefore ability to carry weight. Reach is an indicator of... Well reach. It's cool I guess, but length of limbs isn't an indicator of musculature.
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Post by kingraf Sun 07 Nov 2021, 11:46 am

Also I'm not even sure why we're debating this. Canelo went up to 175 and has cleaned 168. If it was so easy more people would do it. I guarantee his medicine man doesn't have access to things other medicine men don't
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 07 Nov 2021, 11:52 am

We'll just turn a blind eye for the sake of it, we'll ignore the failed test for Clenbuterol because others may or may not being doing it to. He failed a test and has shown remarkable improvements since, 2+2=4.

This undisputed thing is overplayed a bit too; Calzaghe was for all intents and purposes the undisputed champion. He held all four major belts just not at the same time.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 07 Nov 2021, 9:21 pm

Surprised that the BT commentary team seemed to be indicating that they had Plant ahead at the time of the stoppage. He did well in the first half of the fight but all the punches of any real consequence after round four came from Canelo. After that point I gave Plant the seventh largely because Canelo retreated to the ropes and spent the round just waiting for Plant to overextend and give him hard countering opportunities, and it became a Plant round almost by default.

I think some of Canelo's wins have been very iffy and probably not quite on the level, but even I as one of his bigger critics am happy to give him this one. I think Plant did come to win, which is more than can be said of Smith for example, and he didn't seem to be as subdued and pulling his punches as Kovalev was (Sergey has hinted heavily that he was fighting under duress since then, but I guess we'll never know for sure).

We all know that good feet and movement will give Canelo problems so it was no surprise that Plant took the earlier rounds. He's got a sharp left hook and is a nice combination puncher when he gets going, and he used them to decent effect earlier on, but they dried up almost completely after about four or five rounds and his lack of real power started to tell. Spent more and more time just evading rather than landing.

Canelo was just Canelo, really. Took a little while to really get going (although you could arguably give him the second), not flashy or easy on the eye, but at 168 there's nobody who has been able to push him back or discourage him yet, and once he closes that gap he can counter up top and really crush you to the body (some of those right hands downstairs in round ten were excellent).

I'm not a fan, but he beat a good fighter there. Nothing for Plant to be ashamed about - I think his surly attitude and desire to live up to that 'trailer trash' reputation has turned a lot of people off him, along with his links to the Mayweather gym. But he gave a pretty good account of himself and I'd still take him over someone like Benavidez.

Looks like it'll be Benavidez for Canelo next though, on Cinco de Mayo weekend. Might be a rare occasion where I'll actually be supporting Canelo!
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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 07 Nov 2021, 9:59 pm

I'd love to see what Canelo would do with a seriously talented Super-Middle like a Jones, a Calzaghe or a Ward. All the champs he's fought were unbeaten and skilful in their own way but none of them could be regarded as a future great.

I think each of the 3 top super middles of all time would take him to places he wouldn't like - not sure he could deal with Joe's fast hands and movement, Roy's sublime skills or Andre's dark arts of sh!thousery amongst his other attributes. I think each would bring their own Kryptonite to Canelo.

Calzaghe UD12, Ward Rtd 9, Jones TKO10 is my assumption.

I would also like to Canelo's chin tested by someone with the power of a Gerald McLellan-type. I am not sure his chin would be made of that much stone.

I am not a fan of Alvarez - the "Caneloweight" farce fights and the highly questionable muscle mass gain and failed test as detailed above put him very much in the "had help" section, and I don't like the way he's made out to be amazing, when he's actually just very good.

Still, congratulations to him - he has done what he's set out to do. Go have a rest for a bit until the next big fight, whatever weight that may be.

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 08 Nov 2021, 11:45 am

I could see Canelo against Jones looking like Jones-Ruiz personally. Canelo is very front-foot heavy and I'm not sure I could see him trapping Jones on the ropes anywhere near enough, or being able to counter effectively. Jones' power at 168 is a huge upgrade on that of Smith, Saunders and Plant but in fairness to Canelo I don't recall seeing him badly hurt or really shaken at championship level so far, so I'd be inclined to say he goes the distance. But with his slow feet and low output early on he'd probably be four rounds down in that one before he even got going. I think Jones shuts him out and peppers him all night.

Assuming the judges are on the level I'd back Calzaghe over him as well, especially if we're talking about Calzaghe at his best (he was occasionally a slow starter but once that engine got revving he was very difficult to contain). Although they all fell short of beating him, guys like Starie, Salem and Hopkins - possibly Bika as well - showed the way to cause Calzaghe issues, make him look beatable and drastically reduce his output (he was a good 30% down on his usual punch stats in all of those fights). Basically stay close to him, muscle him in close, smother his work and shorten the punches on the inside where Calzaghe wasn't that great. Canelo does have bull-like strength at 168 and doesn't get discouraged by the other guy's work, but he relies a lot on the other guy tiring as the fight wears on and going into their shell once they've felt his power. Calzaghe was a touch vulnerable in the early rounds (all his career knockdowns coming within the first four) but those early rounds are also a weak point for Canelo, so I don't really see him cashing in there, and Calzaghe had great powers of recovery even when he was hurt as well as tremendous stamina and workrate. I think Canelo has his moments and lands some decent leather but is out-sped and out-worked over twelve. Calzaghe UD.

Of those three I'd probably give him the best chance of beating Ward based on styles. Again Canelo is facing a speed disadvantage here, but Ward never minded going rough and ready on the inside when necessary so it'd be interesting to see how the stronger man was in that respect. And while Ward's chin was decent enough, I'd also say Canelo's heavy hands are more likely to make an impact on Ward than they are against Jones (largely because finding Roy's chin cleanly was such a challenge in itself) and Calzaghe. I'd still back Ward but if all three of those guys were around now and I were Canelo's management team, I'd probably direct him towards Ward as the most winnable fight for him based on how they match up on respective strengths and weaknesses.
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Post by No name Bertie Mon 08 Nov 2021, 7:27 pm

Do some of the so-called greats of boxing who remain in their natural weight division lose motivation and so maybe take shortcuts in their preparation for some fights?  When Lennox Lewis lost in South Africa he seemed underprepared, cavalier, and unfocused.  Same could be said with some of Calzaghe's fights.  Mike Tyson admits he lost focus and this led to his first loss.  Other boxing greats lose motivation in their natural weight division and so go up the weights until they eventually reach their limit as they face naturally bigger, stronger individuals e.g. Roberto Duran and Roy Jones Jr.

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 08 Nov 2021, 8:42 pm

It can definitely be one disadvantage of being a Heavyweight Bertie, for sure. If you're a Heavyweight and the division around you is average, then you're on a sticky wicket. Also have to factor in that if you make it big as a Heavyweight, you're probably going to earn bigger money earlier in your career which is a blessing, but also a curse if it starts hampering your motivation once you've got a few quid behind you. It's hard enough for an Average Joe such as myself to get inspired and motivated for certain things at the best of times. Can only imagine how much harder it would be if I had a few million to my name and the rigmarole of hard work / that same old routine was more a choice than a necessity.

Lewis was almost a caricature of the complacent, unmotivated champion for that first Rahman fight. It was like something out of Rocky III. Kicking it with his Hollywood pals on the set of Ocean's Eleven when he was supposed to be training, coming in at his heaviest career weight, not giving himself time to acclimatise to the altitude in Brakpan, and of course the clowning, smiling and ridiculous little bounce off the ropes with his hands down which came right before the knockout punch.

Incredibly frustrating if you're a Lewis fan, because it's one of the few sticks his critics can beat him with - but he gave it them on a platter when it was so avoidable.
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Post by kingraf Fri 12 Nov 2021, 5:28 am

Canelo-Plant did 800k buys domestically, with forecasts of 300-400k international buys. 1.2m buys would mean the fight made just under $100m box office to go with $16m at the gate. All this to say, it's likely that this was a wildly profitable event for everyone involved. Which makes it more likely that Canelo continues to fight on Showtime, especially given the fact that you'd think he's got a pretty lucrative fight against Benavidez on Cinco de Mayo if he wants it.
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Post by Jeff Navarro Sat 13 Nov 2021, 11:54 pm

Kiko Martinez sensational KO’d IBF featherweight champion Kid Galahad in a massive upset win for the veteran Spaniard.
Galahad was dominating through 4 rounds. Got knocked out in the 5th and stopped in the 6th.
Incredible effort by Martinez.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 14 Nov 2021, 10:45 am

Yes Martinez landed the lottery against Galahad...But losing to a novice in Barrett and being slapped off the ordinary Quigg and decent Frampton shows he shouldn't be anywhere near a title fight..Serves Hearn right for selling a lemon.

I expect Galahad to shut him out in a rematch...

The referee in the Harper fight deserves praise...Could easily have seen a concussed Lady poleaxed and seriously hurt...One fight where the rematch clause should be ignored...The challenger looked better in all departments..

Benn v Algieri ???...A pillow puncher that lost to Khan easy years ago and only beat the worst champ in history...Face first circus fighter provo...Benn should start fighting decent opposition or sling it... Same with Eubank...Enough of Williams types...fight the best..

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Post by Herman Jaeger Mon 15 Nov 2021, 9:03 am

These defensive masters so often have a chink

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 15 Nov 2021, 4:39 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:These defensive masters so often have a chink

Especially when they're not defensive masters, but think they are. Bit of a recurring theme over the years with fighters from the Ingle gym.

I'm all for particular gyms / trainers have their own distinctive style, the problem is when it comes at the expense of the basics. You can get away with it if you're a Whitaker, a Lora, a Locche, a Roy Jones etc. Problem is, while a lot of emerging or even established fighters with that reflexive, hands-down or switch hitting style think they are those guys, they almost always aren't and as a result when they get exposed, it tends to be a very rude awakening indeed.

Not from the Ingle gym, but Josh Kelly is another one. Maybe even Anthony Fowler. Obsessed with looking slick and tricky, wanting to be all about reflexes and speed, but nowhere near good enough to survive fighting like that. No idea what to do when they start getting tagged and hurt.
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Post by kingraf Tue 16 Nov 2021, 8:57 am

Elsewhere, on Canelo opponent watch - David Benavidez had a short but entertaining enough bout considering Keyrone Davis was a late replacement. Maybe it was him not respecting Davis' power, but it did seem like Benavidez got tagged an uncomfortable amount by a nobody for a would be challenger.

Jaime Munguia put together a relatively straightforward win against Gabe Rosado in a fight where Rosado had plenty of moments, but never quite put together a run. Munguia looks the goods. 6'0, seems to have an iron chin, stupid high work rate. Little worried that despite having a 80%-odd KO ratio he landed more punches on Rosado (who it must be remembered probably should have had the nod on Danny Jacobs, so he was coming in hot) and he didn't really look like putting him away, but I'm willing to put that down to Rosado having a serious chin. Anyway, Munguia made seven figures for this fight, so good for him, but I'm not sure he wouldn't be better served fighting on ESPN or Showtime. DAZN doesn't really feel like a place you go before you've got real recognition.

On a side note, this was the I don't even know which number fight where Gabe Rosado has taken some serious links. He's obviously tough as old boots, but I'd think between this fight, which he got $600k for, the Jacobs fight where he got seven figures, and his other endeavours, I hope he's got enough to not need to get in the ring again because if he doesn't already have CTE, he's got to be in the red zone
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Post by Jeff Navarro Tue 16 Nov 2021, 8:25 pm

WBC had the committee today regarding mandatories. Dillian Whyte wasn’t made mandatory to face Tyson Fury.
Whyte has a court case ongoing against WBC - WBC won’t mandate unless Whyte drops court case.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 17 Nov 2021, 12:55 pm

Any thoughts on Porter-Crawford at the weekend then, lads? Shock horror, there's a feeling brewing that we might actually see Crawford in something resembling a proper fight again at long last.

There's something to be said for Porter here as he's naturally bigger and heavier than Crawford, and even though he's lost more than he's won against the A-listers those defeats have tended to be very close or even contentious. He's got a decent level of talent and skill - not as much as Crawford, of course - but knows how to stop other guys looking good and can rough house and spoil if he needs to.

That said - he is 34 and hasn't fought in even longer than the frustratingly inactive Crawford. 34 isn't particularly old in today's game - certainly not the way it was twenty years or so back - but Porter has been in some tough fights and has spent a lot of time making a useful second career as a pundit recently (which he's good at, to be fair). You have to wonder if the same hunger is quite there nowadays, but let's assume it is.

I think Crawford knows he needs something big here - he should win, but the key will be whether he can win dominantly and / or get Porter out of there inside-schedule, as nobody has been able to do either of those things against Porter so far. Porter's very durable and battle-hardened but I think Crawford is hitting much harder as a Welter than he did back in those Lightweight days, and he carries his power late into fights as well. I'm picking him to make a statement and stop Porter in the second half of the fight, which he could really do with if he wants to get back into pound for pound consideration before he retires. Will probably be a bit stop-start and messy early on but I can see Crawford dominating from the middle rounds onwards. If he gets the stoppage it will be a very worthwhile feather in his cap.

Needless to say, if he loses then he's a protected Amerobum con artist fraud hype job who never beat anyone in their prime and has been exposed!
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Post by Jeff Navarro Wed 17 Nov 2021, 6:04 pm

Porter is game and brings it in every fight but Crawford should be able to pick him apart if he’s truly as great as they claim he is.
Porter was somewhat exposed by Brook, and despite the lack of big names on the cv, Crawford is levels above Brook.
It got be a great fight as Porter gave Spence all they could handle.
Crawford 116-112 seems about right. Don’t see a KO from either.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 19 Nov 2021, 12:16 pm

The thing is with Porter, he always bring 100%. I think that Crawford will have to fight tactically, and reckon that with his customary slow start it will go much as Jeff says - about 116-112. That said, a cut to Crawford caused by a punch could change everything.

Crawford UD unless he gets cut, and then it's anyone's fight.

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Post by Jeff Navarro Fri 19 Nov 2021, 5:33 pm

Bob Arum just announced Oscar Valdez will defend his WBC junior lightweight title against WBO featherweight champion Emanuel Navarrete.
Bit strange how they didn’t do Stevenson vs Valdez. But I fancy Navarette to take out Valdez.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 19 Nov 2021, 8:11 pm

I doubt that Valdez' people want anything to do with Stevenson. I think he'd give Valdez fits, and it might not be a pretty watch. Navarrate is pretty handy too though, and I think will also give Valdez a hard fight, just of a different type. Quite a bold call Jeff - will Navarrete have the power?

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Post by Jeff Navarro Fri 19 Nov 2021, 9:05 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I doubt that Valdez' people want anything to do with Stevenson. I think he'd give Valdez fits, and it might not be a pretty watch. Navarrate is pretty handy too though, and I think will also give Valdez a hard fight, just of a different type. Quite a bold call Jeff - will Navarrete have the power?
Potentially the fight could be off now...Navarette is a free agent and would prefer to join PBC or DAZN.
If he changes his mind and stays with TR, I think Navarette’s volume of punches and incredible cardio would be too much for Valdez, whom I’ve never really been all that convinced of.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sat 20 Nov 2021, 11:34 am

3.57s :  ‘Is it Charlo or is it factors around Charlo you think that’s preventing you two fighting because an all-American undefeated unification is gold dust’

https://youtu.be/yJYtTZkGSS0

Charlo fights going to have a bit of a damp squib feel till he fights Andrade. Maybe even his fans will stop turning out. You can run from one fighter and maybe get a big fight but you can’t run from two fighters can you (Andrade, Benavidez) and expect to walk into a big fight?

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Post by Jeff Navarro Sun 21 Nov 2021, 6:26 am

Terence Crawford retained his WBO welterweight title with a tenth round TKO over Shawn Porter, when Kenny Porter threw in the towel. Was a pretty close fight but Crawford was coming on strong. The cards had Crawford up by 1 on two cards and by 3 on the other.
Crawford dropped Porter twice in the tenth. Whilst Porter didn’t look badly hurt, his dad stopped it.

Subsequently Porter announced his retirement from boxing.

Crawford is now a promotional free agent...for my money he beats Errol Spence.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 21 Nov 2021, 9:14 am

Bit of a strange fight. Crawford got the stoppage as I predicted which is a nice result on paper, and to be fair nobody has ever had it easy with Porter even if they've beaten him. But I don't think it was a sparkling performance by Crawford and Porter can count himself pretty unlucky to be stopped in that manner.

Of course his old man will have his best interests at heart and there was quite a long time left in the round, but he was fully aware of what was going on (hence his disgust at allowing himself to be floored a second time) and they weren't devastating punches. The fight had almost certainly got away from him by that stage but I think he could have still got through the tenth and gone the distance.

I thought Crawford was a bit too negative and willing to cede ground early on. For the most part he didn't want to mix it with Porter on the inside, but he's a smart fighter and even when he's not throwing punches there he knows where to put his hands and how to position his body to avoid taking shots, and Porter did expend a lot of energy in those kind of exchanges without inflicting all that much damage. Aside from the sixth (where he did let his hands go and start trading with Porter right in close) and of course the tenth where he got the stoppage I don't think he looked all that great, albeit he probably won everything after the fifth.

I think the inactivity has blunted him slightly because he needs that timing, and he was throwing a lot more pitty-pat and arm punches here which missed than usual. Can't be too critical when he's just beaten and stopped (by hook or crook) a respectable fighter and durable guy but I'd like to see him fight three times in 2022. Unfortunately these days two fights a year seems the going rate for a lot of the best guys out there.

Is he going to finally be free from Arum now? Reports suggest he will be, but we've heard this all before. Time is of the essence if he wants to cram in a couple more really eye-catching wins and start making that CV appear more in line with his talent and reputation. If he is now a free agent and willing to walk away from Arum then the Josh Taylor fight is probably a no-go, but if so he needs to get himself over to PBC.

I've never had any doubt that he'll do a number of Spence which would probably be his defining win, but it would also give him a chance to fatten up that record with another couple of defences against their Welter crop (just about all the talent at 147 lb is on that side) and then there's the prospect of Jermell, which could give him almost all the Light-Middle titles in one sweep (he should fancy his chances after Jermell needed that gift against Canstano).
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 21 Nov 2021, 9:23 am

I fancy Crawford to heat Spence Jr quite comfortably, whilst he's not been that impressive recently I just do not rate Errol at all. The Brook fight for me was a fight he was comfortably losing and looking ordinary in until the effects of the weight blunted Kell. If he doesn't foolishly fight GGG he cruises to a comfortable victory in that.

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Post by Jeff Navarro Sun 21 Nov 2021, 11:13 am

Even if PBC lands Crawford I’m not 100% sure Crawford vs Spence happens.
Spence coming back from a terrible eye injury and he’s been with PBC for a long time. Haymon probably protects him.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Sun 21 Nov 2021, 11:28 am

Beats Spence it’s maybe 90/10 in Crawford’s favour why do you think the fight never happened and for me (only opinion so don’t bite my head off) would’ve given Floyd his first loss and we’d be much nearer Floyd’s true worth (as a welterweight) today. Floyd shied away from all the dangermen at 47

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 21 Nov 2021, 11:56 am

Whistle

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 21 Nov 2021, 12:44 pm

I thought Brook was going to beat Spence before the eye injury...So I think Crawford wins.

Great fight last night and stopping a short..stocky...talented battler in Porter was a good effort..

Porter will never be an easy fight for anyone..

He is like a smaller Qawi.....In the way fighters at 147 don't encounter opponents with his size and gifts.

Crawford is an ATG for sure.


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Post by kingraf Sun 21 Nov 2021, 1:26 pm

Sometimes even when a guy is winning, you can kinda tell he is performing a lot closer to his absolute best than the other guy, and so what he is doing looks unsustainable. Had Porter up 4-2 after six, but as is always the case with Porter, he just didn't look quite good enough against the very top guys. Crawford caught him with body shot in seventh I think, and then again with an uppercut in the ninth. And of course finished it off with aplomb. The stoppage was maybe early, but best case scenario, Porter would have been down four points on my card if he took no further damage, and more realistically he was knocked down twice with 90 seconds left in a round against the best finisher in the sport. It would have been ugly. I wonder, when combining his dad's comments of Porter "knowing what's best" and Porter himself admitting he knew that win, lose or draw he was retiring if maybe the camp didn't go as smoothly as one would hope and if that didn't play a factor in Porter looking less manic than usual.

Moving forward Errol Spence has said he doesn't need tune-up fights, but its one fight in 2 years now, so I'm not sure he is able to just switch it on against Bud if they fought next. He (or whoever wins the PBC welterweight round robin) does have a chance at being the first ever four-belt undisputed champion at 147, so from a legacy perspective, that's huge for a guy with the chip on his shoulder he seems to have. If he unifies, undisputed, two divisions he'll have both a lot of money, and a unique piece of boxing history which would out him up quite high pound for pound.
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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 21 Nov 2021, 10:16 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Crawford is an ATG for sure.

I suspect you won't be alone in that opinion, Truss, but I'm not sure I could put Crawford in that bracket if he retired right now. Long unbeaten record and plenty of belts, usually secured with an impressive margin of victory...But he's very thin on genuinely top names if we're talking about placing him amongst the greats.

Sometimes guys are just unlucky if there's a lack of top opponents in and around their prime years or best weight class, and I guess you could argue that there weren't all that many tasty fights at Lightweight or Light-Welter when Crawford was there (the Light-Welter division Taylor has cleared out 2019-21 has definitely been a better one than Crawford did 2015-17 for example). But he's been holding that Welterweight title for three years at a time when there are some good 147 pounders around, yet Porter last night was his first really worthwhile opponent there, and even then it was hardly a great performance capped with a poor stoppage.

Arum and Top Rank might have to shoulder most of the blame for that, and we'll see how legit that is in the coming year as, in theory, there are no excuses to be had as Crawford is a free agent now. I think Crawford has another level in him which would be brought out by tougher challenges, but he's not invincible and I still feel he needs to prove real greatness.

He might have more raw talent (depending on what you like) than someone like Calzaghe or Tszyu, and maybe has passed some of his assignments with more aplomb. But those guys are, in my opinion, just a rung below proper ATG status and until Crawford has one or two really defining wins against prime or non-compromised opponents, so will he be in my eyes.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Nov 2021, 9:00 am

Simple response Chris is that Eusebio Pedroza is regarded as an alltime great..

No Gomez...No Danny Lopez...No Nelson fights at 126...if blown up bantams and Lockridge and Laporte mean great and a 7 year stint with an alphabet etc..Even when you are 2nd at Feather.

Get my drift..Your post is compelling but its where ATG starts.

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Post by No name Bertie Mon 22 Nov 2021, 9:20 am

At the end of the 9th round you could see Crawford in his corner in conversation with his trainer.  I think his trainer asked him to step it up in order to put distance onto the scorecards between himself and Porter.  Crawford really felt he was winning the fight easily so was surprised to get that feedback from his trainer so decided to step it up in the 10th.  I didn't think Porter really troubled Crawford it was more a question of Crawford working out Porter and putting in the effort to really trouble Porter.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 22 Nov 2021, 10:16 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Simple response Chris is that Eusebio Pedroza is regarded as an alltime great..

No Gomez...No Danny Lopez...No Nelson fights at 126...if blown up bantams and Lockridge and Laporte mean great and a 7 year stint with an alphabet etc..Even when you are 2nd at Feather.

Get my drift..Your post is compelling but its where ATG starts.

It depends on what you, Chris or I regard as all time rather than anything Truss. I personally don't consider Pedrosa to be an all time great, he was a very good featherweight champion but not among the absolute best at the weight. Crawford is on the cusp, a couple more top drawer wins and i'd happily call him an all time great, throughout history Lightweight and Welterweight are so talent stacked it requires slightly more than he's done so far.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Nov 2021, 11:44 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Simple response Chris is that Eusebio Pedroza is regarded as an alltime great..

No Gomez...No Danny Lopez...No Nelson fights at 126...if blown up bantams and Lockridge and Laporte mean great and a 7 year stint with an alphabet etc..Even when you are 2nd at Feather.

Get my drift..Your post is compelling but its where ATG starts.

It depends on what you, Chris or I regard as all time rather than anything Truss. I personally don't consider Pedrosa to be an all time great, he was a very good featherweight champion but not among the absolute best at the weight. Crawford is on the cusp, a couple more top drawer wins and i'd happily call him an all time great, throughout history Lightweight and Welterweight are so talent stacked it requires slightly more than he's done so far.

Can't argue too much with that...

Crawford does have one advantage in that no one really dislikes him...

Remember the legendary HazHarrison sticking Pedroza above Mayweather in his list...

Personally I don't think Pedroza is a great but consensus does disagree with both of us I think.

Thanks for the reply.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 24 Nov 2021, 4:01 pm

The PBC’s refusal to work with Eddie Hearn is going to ruin the sport for the next ten years. I hope they spend their money on hookers and drugs and blow all the rest, seriously. I know promoter’s are out for themselves but at least Hearn will always try to make the fights the fans want to see. Won’t do 50/50’s, won’t work with other promoters, on a mission to try to create a monopoly (which will never happen,) the sooner they disappear the better imo. If only there was an independent organisation who could force these fights? How can anyone defend their refusal to make this fight? As I say hopefully Charlo fans will stop turning out when they (finally) realise they’re having the mick taken out of them. Charlo: ‘I want to unify like my brother’

https://www.boxingscene.com/hearn-baffles-me-charlo-andrade-t-made-two-undefeated-american-middleweight-champions--162252

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 24 Nov 2021, 4:30 pm

Charlo knows he doesn’t have to fight Andrade of course,  he knows Canelo will fight him because he knows Canelo won’t fight Andrade because Andrade could be a problem stylistically, a big problem

Andrade would be able to put enormous pressure on Canelo if he beat Charlo, that’s why you never hear Canelo say I’ll fight the winner of you two. Everyone saying Canelo a marvel but quietly he’s a bit of a picker himself- Benavidez, Beterbiev, Andrade, his three stiffest tests

Though to be fair I’m sure he’ll fight Benavidez Cinco de Mayo next year, if he doesn’t something’s up

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 24 Nov 2021, 4:51 pm

Everyone is a picker according to you though Herman so it starts to lose relevance after a while. Canelo may well be a drugs cheat but he's no cherry picker; Benavidez aren't in the conversation really, Smith and Saunders are their equals and he dispatched of the pair quite easily. Beterbiev with his power is an intriguing prospect but you can't fight everyone.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:10 pm

Your attacks on me are irrelevant

In fact virtually everything you say is irrelevant after declaring Luis Ortiz is a stiffer test for Joshua that Olek Usyk lmao

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 24 Nov 2021, 6:52 pm

I'll take that to mean you're unable to formulate an actual argument. If Usyk can AJ then Ortiz could too, the two are not mutually exclusive.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 24 Nov 2021, 7:47 pm

You’re unusually intolerant of other people’s opinions, why so? You’re not one of these wokeists are you?

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 24 Nov 2021, 9:56 pm

Alvarez is dodging Andrade, a man whose most significant win was Martirosyan 8 years ago.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 24 Nov 2021, 11:02 pm

So you’re one of the fans defending Charlo not fighting Andrade, defending the indefensible

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 25 Nov 2021, 7:16 am

I'm explaining why Alvarez hasn't fought Andrade, do keep up.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 25 Nov 2021, 9:39 am

By your logic I’m guessing you’re going to say Charlo deserves the Canelo fight. In whivh case you genuinely are a bit disturbed

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 25 Nov 2021, 10:09 am

You're an odd character. Neither of them deserve the fight nor does Alvarez need to fight either, he's just become undisputed champion at a higher weight and is fighting at Cruiserweight next. People campaigning at middleweight are not in the conversation any more.

A difference of opinion makes someone disturbed? Good to see you're still trivialising mental health.

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Post by 88Chris05 Thu 25 Nov 2021, 10:46 am

Seeing as Luis Ortiz was mentioned earlier, and we were talking about Crawford before, come to think of it that would be a fight Crawford would actually get some credit for if he took and won, at least from me: against young Vergil Ortiz Jr.

He's not had the same exposure or crowning moment as someone like Teofimo yet, but Ortiz is definitely one of the better young talents emerging within the last couple of years or so.

One of the heaviest and most punishing jabs in the business, very good punching technique, not bad technically and keeps his hands high, albeit his defence is still in the decent or not bad category rather than water tight. Has a bit of JMM about him in the way he can stay cool when the leather is flying from both men and recover quickly when he has been tagged to string together combinations.

Not quite the finished article (he can box as well as punch, but maybe needs to remember that and use more feints and movement which he's shown he's capable of) but his future is looking bright. Taking out a durable guy like Herrera the way he did suggested that his power is genuine and I enjoyed the Kavaliauskas scrap as well. He's ready for the step up and a genuine world title fight.

He's been calling out Crawford for a while now and has told everyone who'll listen that he's ready for that test even now. It could be another Vargas-Trinidad situation if it happens, with the big showdown maybe coming just a couple of fights or so too early for the young talent against the more hardened and experienced campaigner. But if Crawford can't land the Spence fight for whatever reason, he could do a lot worse than consider Ortiz. Would be interesting to see him take on a guy on his way up, rather than slipping down the other side of the hill. Every chance, if he won, that it would be a victory which would grow in stature over time, and on the Ortiz side of the coin even if he lost he could well learn and improve from it l.
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Post by Herman Jaeger Thu 25 Nov 2021, 11:25 am

Soul Requiem wrote:You're an odd character. Neither of them deserve the fight nor does Alvarez need to fight either, he's just become undisputed champion at a higher weight and is fighting at Cruiserweight next. People campaigning at middleweight are not in the conversation any more.

A difference of opinion makes someone disturbed? Good to see you're still trivialising mental health.


I can see mental health is a topic close to your heart

Glad you’re impressed with his move to cruiserweight to pick off the weakest link, no one else is

And Andrade said he’d fight him at 68 so ok you’re right he’s not in the conversation anymore smh

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 25 Nov 2021, 11:42 am

Herman Jaeger wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:You're an odd character. Neither of them deserve the fight nor does Alvarez need to fight either, he's just become undisputed champion at a higher weight and is fighting at Cruiserweight next. People campaigning at middleweight are not in the conversation any more.

A difference of opinion makes someone disturbed? Good to see you're still trivialising mental health.


I can see mental health is a topic close to your heart

Glad you’re impressed with his move to cruiserweight to pick off the weakest link, no one else is

And Andrade said he’d fight him at 68 so ok you’re right he’s not in the conversation anymore smh

I just find it rather unsavoury when idiots online trivialise it.

Fighting Makabu at Cruiserweight is a bigger risk than Andrade, most people i've seen are impressed by the fight actually as long as it's a legitimate fight rather than the Kovalev fight.

Andrade could step up to 168lbs then and fight someone half decent for a change instead of someone like Quigley or Williams.

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