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Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO)

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Post by bsando Mon 08 Feb 2021, 8:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland vs Wales

Referee: Matthew Carley (England)
Assistant Referee 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant Referee 2: Andrea Piardi (Italy)
TMO: Karl Dickson (England)

Teams

Scotland Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO) - Page 10 Outlan10

1 Rory Sutherland
2 George Turner
3 Zander Fagerson
4 Scott Cummings
5 Jonny Gray (Vice Captain)
6 Blade Thomson
7 Hamish Watson
8 Matt Fagerson
9 Ali Price
10 Finn Russell (Vice Captain)
11 Duhan van der Merwe
12 James Lang
13 Chris Harris
14 Darcy Graham
15 Stuart Hogg (Captain)

16 David Cherry
17 Oli Kebble
18 WP Nel
19 Richie Gray
20 Gary Graham
21 Scott Steele
22 Jaco van der Walt
23 Huw Jones

WalesScotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO) - Page 10 Tom_jo10

1 Wyn Jones
2 Ken Owens
3 Tomas Francis
4 Adam Beard
5 Alun Wyn Jones (Captain)
6 Aaron Wainwright
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Taulupe Faletau
9 Gareth Davies
10 Dan Biggar
11 Liam Williams
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Owen Watkin
14 Louis Rees-Zammit
15 Leigh Halfpenny

16 Elliot Dee
17 Rhodri Jones
18 Leon Brown
19 Will Rowlands
20 James Botham
21 Kieran Hardy
22 Callum Sheedy
23 Uilisi Halaholo

Recent Results

2017: SCO 29 - WAL 13
2018: WAL 34 - SCO 7 & WAL 21 - SCO 10
2019: SCO 11 - WAL 18
2020: WAL 10 - SCO 14

Overall
Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO) - Page 10 Screen26


Last edited by bsando on Thu 11 Feb 2021, 1:52 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:21 pm

R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

This makes no sense

he hit it back first then tackled Hogg, so the ball was not where near Hogg to pick up

It was as clear as day a yellow (IMO)


Of course it makes sense. LW arguably hit the ball backwards whilst in the process of attempting to tackle Hogg (at that point he had not made contact with him). Whether LW intended to do so is anyone's guess. Not my problem if you don't understand that.

Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that one.

If you watch the clip, the 2 actions are not linked. Williams is side by side to Hogg, bats the ball back, Hogg gets ahead  then he fully tackles him, grabbing round his waist then down his legs.

Look at the 2 clips and it is very clear - unless you choose to ignore the images
https://twitter.com/thistlerugbypod/status/1360881279135277056

And to respond to this passive aggressive post. Not my fault if you don't understand that intent or if he thought Hogg might get the ball is not an issue. He tackled somome without the ball which is a penalty - there is no get out of jail card, that he 'thought' Hogg might have the ball...he didn't

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Post by EST Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:25 pm

Just looking back at that clip, what amazing skill and vision from Russell - I thought he was really good on the weekend.

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Post by BigGee Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:28 pm

EST wrote:Just looking back at that clip, what amazing skill and vision from Russell - I thought he was really good on the weekend.


You would have to say that Russell is the form British and Irish FH at the moment and really should be touring and starting for the Lions on current form. I wonder if Gats will see it in that light?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:29 pm

It was one hell of a pass out of the tackle to the winger, who was then excellently tap tackled by Watkins, all round good few seconds of rugby.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:31 pm

BigGee wrote:
EST wrote:Just looking back at that clip, what amazing skill and vision from Russell - I thought he was really good on the weekend.


You would have to say that Russell is the form British and Irish FH at the moment and really should be touring and starting for the Lions on current form. I wonder if Gats will see it in that light?

Don't forget it's more than just 'Gats' who chooses the squad.
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Post by doctor_grey Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:34 pm

BigGee wrote:
EST wrote:Just looking back at that clip, what amazing skill and vision from Russell - I thought he was really good on the weekend.


You would have to say that Russell is the form British and Irish FH at the moment and really should be touring and starting for the Lions on current form. I wonder if Gats will see it in that light?
I would certainly think Russell is the form B&I 10 at the moment.  Not really sure anyone is even close. But Gatland might look at that trip and what some perceived as an 'I don't give a damn' look immediately afterwards.  For myself, I am not sure about him in that same context.  One dumb, rash mistake in a pivotal match can undo an entire series.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:It was one hell of a pass out of the tackle to the winger, who was then excellently tap tackled by Watkins, all round good few seconds of rugby.

That is was - and a really good tap tackle.


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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:37 pm

I hope this defeat doesn't knock Scotland off their stride, because they're still in the hunt for the title, as well as being a good side to watch.

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Post by eirebilly Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:41 pm

Russell is easily the best 10 of the home nations right now but there is not that much competition to be fair. The only real competition is George Ford, who i think on his day is better, so its slim pickings.

Wales have certainly unearthed a proper gem in Rees-Zammit. In both games so far he has shown an amazing temperament and control. He has a massive future ahead of him.
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Post by EST Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:45 pm

BigGee wrote:
EST wrote:Just looking back at that clip, what amazing skill and vision from Russell - I thought he was really good on the weekend.


You would have to say that Russell is the form British and Irish FH at the moment and really should be touring and starting for the Lions on current form. I wonder if Gats will see it in that light?

Yes, he did everything his detractors say he needs to improve on against Wales - kicked well the tee, no glaring errors and bossed his team around the park with some very decent kicking from hand. He had a hand in all three tries too, the break and offload to Gray in the lead up to Grahams try and then some really crisp passing to put Hogg into space twice. A clear front runner for me, I don't actually think it's a close contest on current form.


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Post by LordDowlais Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:50 pm

eirebilly wrote:Russell is easily the best 10 of the home nations right now but there is not that much competition to be fair. The only real competition is George Ford, who i think on his day is better, so its slim pickings.

Wales have certainly unearthed a proper gem in Rees-Zammit. In both games so far he has shown an amazing temperament and control. He has a massive future ahead of him.

I know this might sound stupid, but the only competition Russell has, is well, himself. He can be sublime, and a class above, like he was on Saturday, but he can also be polar opposite, but boy when he is on the money, there is no one better.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 15 Feb 2021, 8:53 pm

R!skysports wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

This makes no sense

he hit it back first then tackled Hogg, so the ball was not where near Hogg to pick up

It was as clear as day a yellow (IMO)


Of course it makes sense. LW arguably hit the ball backwards whilst in the process of attempting to tackle Hogg (at that point he had not made contact with him). Whether LW intended to do so is anyone's guess. Not my problem if you don't understand that.

Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that one.

If you watch the clip, the 2 actions are not linked. Williams is side by side to Hogg, bats the ball back, Hogg gets ahead  then he fully tackles him, grabbing round his waist then down his legs.

Look at the 2 clips and it is very clear - unless you choose to ignore the images
https://twitter.com/thistlerugbypod/status/1360881279135277056

And to respond to this passive aggressive post. Not my fault if you don't understand that intent or if he thought Hogg might get the ball is not an issue. He tackled somome without the ball which is a penalty - there is no get out of jail card, that he 'thought' Hogg might have the ball...he didn't

Ummm okay so I watched again and it just confirms what I alluded to in my first comment on the matter (the one you didn't understand). It looks as though LW committed to the tackle and knocked the ball back in the process. He was looking at Hogg and not the ball expecting him to receive the ball, this is why I don't think he hit it back on purpose. Whether LW meant to do that or was just taking Hogg out off the ball is anyone's guess - like I also alluded to. Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that IMO.

I never said that it wasn't worth a penalty, I just said it would be harsh and ridiculous to give a YC for that - and I've never seen it (a yellow) happen either. Also LRZ dived down on the ball at the end and has to be allowed to get up, so not a penalty to Scotland as he wasn't holding on. If anything it was a penalty to Wales for Harris not letting him get up - I've noticed this happens often in rugby though and all the ref's can do is say "release" - which is what the ref did. If Townsend is focussing on this (like the fans) rather than his team squandering the lead then he's not the man to take you forward.

I would lay off accusing others of being aggressive if I were you. I've noticed this fixture tends to carry a lot of of anger and resentment from your side and this weekend, sadly, was no different. It's as if the laws shouldn't apply to Scotland Rolling Eyes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:29 am

Apart from the fact that williams goes back for a second go and completes the tackle. I think it's close to a yellow if the officials saw it was knocked back. They obviously didnt and I watched the replay twice before realising it wasnt Hogg knocking it on so hardly miss of the century.

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Post by EST Tue 16 Feb 2021, 8:59 am

The Williams tackle is certainly a penalty, and that's all that really matters in the context of the game given it was the last play.

As others have noted, it's not what lost us the game - that would be the infuriating indiscipline of certain Scottish forwards, good Welsh play and the excellence of LRZ - just a frustrating way to end from a Scottish perspective.


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Post by R!skysports Tue 16 Feb 2021, 10:17 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

This makes no sense

he hit it back first then tackled Hogg, so the ball was not where near Hogg to pick up

It was as clear as day a yellow (IMO)


Of course it makes sense. LW arguably hit the ball backwards whilst in the process of attempting to tackle Hogg (at that point he had not made contact with him). Whether LW intended to do so is anyone's guess. Not my problem if you don't understand that.

Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that one.

If you watch the clip, the 2 actions are not linked. Williams is side by side to Hogg, bats the ball back, Hogg gets ahead  then he fully tackles him, grabbing round his waist then down his legs.

Look at the 2 clips and it is very clear - unless you choose to ignore the images
https://twitter.com/thistlerugbypod/status/1360881279135277056

And to respond to this passive aggressive post. Not my fault if you don't understand that intent or if he thought Hogg might get the ball is not an issue. He tackled somome without the ball which is a penalty - there is no get out of jail card, that he 'thought' Hogg might have the ball...he didn't

Ummm okay so I watched again and it just confirms what I alluded to in my first comment on the matter (the one you didn't understand). It looks as though LW committed to the tackle and knocked the ball back in the process. He was looking at Hogg and not the ball expecting him to receive the ball, this is why I don't think he hit it back on purpose. Whether LW meant to do that or was just taking Hogg out off the ball is anyone's guess - like I also alluded to. Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that IMO.

I never said that it wasn't worth a penalty, I just said it would be harsh and ridiculous to give a YC for that - and I've never seen it (a yellow) happen either. Also LRZ dived down on the ball at the end and has to be allowed to get up, so not a penalty to Scotland as he wasn't holding on. If anything it was a penalty to Wales for Harris not letting him get up - I've noticed this happens often in rugby though and all the ref's can do is say "release" - which is what the ref did. If Townsend is focussing on this (like the fans) rather than his team squandering the lead then he's not the man to take you forward.

I would lay off accusing others of being aggressive if I were you. I've noticed this fixture tends to carry a lot of of anger and resentment from your side and this weekend, sadly, was no different. It's as if the laws shouldn't apply to Scotland Rolling Eyes.

Not sure how you can call what I was saying as aggressive, as I was stating the laws

Williams was a clear penalty and probably yellow as he continues to complete the tackle, long after the ball has gone and Hogg does not have it - so very cynical. It does not matter if he thought that Hogg would got the ball, he tackled a player off the ball, when there was a potential try scoring opportunity (That last bit is where the debate could be - as there was cover)

On the fact of LRZ diving on the ball. It looked like he started to get up and then dropped down again, as he realised that he was alone. Yes, you have to allow someone to get up, but that does not mean you can just lie there holding on. I am not 100% sure of the laws on this one, but I think if looked at 99.9% of time the ref would have given a penalty

Anyway, nothing going to change the result saldy, so time to move on to the French match




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Post by bsando Tue 16 Feb 2021, 10:47 am

I think the only action the ref could have made was to refer it to the TMO if he felt he had missed something in that final phase of play that warranted inspection. It was very messy and Wales were desperately rushing back in defence so a lot to process for one person. I think the ref was fine to just let the play continue and nor do I think Harris was positioned well enough to warrant that he had turned the ball over as Townsend alluded to.

However, as Scotland were on the attack I think the referee should have been more wary of what the defending side were up to. He seemed quite nonchalant at times during that match and perhaps a different referee would have deemed further inspection appropriate. Fully acceptable ending though, Williams did well under pressure to prevent Hogg gathering the ball. Scotland should have been more clinical earlier in the match.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 16 Feb 2021, 11:28 am

R!skysports wrote:Not sure how you can call what I was saying as aggressive, as I was stating the laws

Williams was a clear penalty and probably yellow as he continues to complete the tackle, long after the ball has gone and Hogg does not have it - so very cynical. It does not matter if he thought that Hogg would got the ball, he tackled a player off the ball, when there was a potential try scoring opportunity (That last bit is where the debate could be - as there was cover)

On the fact of LRZ diving on the ball. It looked like he started to get up and then dropped down again, as he realised that he was alone. Yes, you have to allow someone to get up, but that does not mean you can just lie there holding on. I am not 100% sure of the laws on this one, but I think if looked at 99.9% of time the ref would have given a penalty

Anyway, nothing going to change the result saldy, so time to move on to the French match

Well I didn't think my post was aggressive either.

Disagree on the yellow, penalty at the most if the ref is pedantic but whatever.

He didn't get up, he hesitated and stayed down. He would have had to have been tackled and released, I'm pretty sure those are the laws. I see it often where the law isn't really applied. ABs are usually good at it though as they flood the tackle and breakdown with a few players.

Yes sadly, and it just prolongs Pivac's time in the job. I think you create your own luck, but Scotland were certainly unlucky in this one IMO and should have sewn it up sooner. Impressive lineout driving and comeback from Wales, it looks as if most of the good we do is down to individuals as opposed to what the coach is coaching them to do.

I think you might struggle against France but good luck anyway.

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Post by tigertattie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 1:56 pm

I still love how people think that you need to “let a player get up” when they go to ground to gather a ball. You don't!

The laws say the ball gatherer must immediately get up, play or release the ball. You do not need to stand there and let them get up. What you can’t do is fall on or over the player on the ground. In this case Harris didn’t, he was on his feet and latched onto the ball which wasn’t immediately released so it should have been a penalty
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 16 Feb 2021, 2:03 pm

tigertattie wrote:I still love how people think that you need to “let a player get up” when they go to ground to gather a ball. You don't!

The laws say the ball gatherer must immediately get up, play or release the ball. You do not need to stand there and let them get up. What you can’t do is fall on or over the player on the ground. In this case Harris didn’t, he was on his feet and latched onto the ball which wasn’t immediately released so it should have been a penalty

I thought the laws were that you had to allow for the player to get up or place the ball, I'm sure of it. I could be wrong though. Headscratch

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Post by R!skysports Tue 16 Feb 2021, 2:34 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:Not sure how you can call what I was saying as aggressive, as I was stating the laws

Williams was a clear penalty and probably yellow as he continues to complete the tackle, long after the ball has gone and Hogg does not have it - so very cynical. It does not matter if he thought that Hogg would got the ball, he tackled a player off the ball, when there was a potential try scoring opportunity (That last bit is where the debate could be - as there was cover)

On the fact of LRZ diving on the ball. It looked like he started to get up and then dropped down again, as he realised that he was alone. Yes, you have to allow someone to get up, but that does not mean you can just lie there holding on. I am not 100% sure of the laws on this one, but I think if looked at 99.9% of time the ref would have given a penalty

Anyway, nothing going to change the result saldy, so time to move on to the French match

Well I didn't think my post was aggressive either.

Disagree on the yellow, penalty at the most if the ref is pedantic but whatever.

He didn't get up, he hesitated and stayed down. He would have had to have been tackled and released, I'm pretty sure those are the laws. I see it often where the law isn't really applied. ABs are usually good at it though as they flood the tackle and breakdown with a few players.

Yes sadly, and it just prolongs Pivac's time in the job. I think you create your own luck, but Scotland were certainly unlucky in this one IMO and should have sewn it up sooner. Impressive lineout driving and comeback from Wales, it looks as if most of the good we do is down to individuals as opposed to what the coach is coaching them to do.

I think you might struggle against France but good luck anyway.

Well I didn't think my post was aggressive either. Hug

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 16 Feb 2021, 8:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I still love how people think that you need to “let a player get up” when they go to ground to gather a ball. You don't!

The laws say the ball gatherer must immediately get up, play or release the ball. You do not need to stand there and let them get up. What you can’t do is fall on or over the player on the ground. In this case Harris didn’t, he was on his feet and latched onto the ball which wasn’t immediately released so it should have been a penalty

I thought the laws were that you had to allow for the player to get up or place the ball, I'm sure of it. I could be wrong though. Headscratch

Yeah if you're reading this somewhere Tattie, would be interested to see it if you can post the link? For my benefit btw.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I still love how people think that you need to “let a player get up” when they go to ground to gather a ball. You don't!

The laws say the ball gatherer must immediately get up, play or release the ball. You do not need to stand there and let them get up. What you can’t do is fall on or over the player on the ground. In this case Harris didn’t, he was on his feet and latched onto the ball which wasn’t immediately released so it should have been a penalty

I thought the laws were that you had to allow for the player to get up or place the ball, I'm sure of it. I could be wrong though. Headscratch

Yeah if you're reading this somewhere Tattie, would be interested to see it if you can post the link? For my benefit btw.

Law 13.1

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 17 Feb 2021, 4:46 am

eirebilly wrote:Wales have certainly unearthed a proper gem in Rees-Zammit. In both games so far he has shown an amazing temperament and control. He has a massive future ahead of him.

I think it was more Gloucester that unearthed him Eirebilly. I'm not sure if you watch the Prem, but Zammit was hot property before Wales got him in a squad...he's scored some great tries.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 17 Feb 2021, 8:47 am

LRZ debuted for Glaws A, then Glaws in the prem at 18 I believe. He's a natural. We have to somewhat thank Hartpury, etc for their input though. Same as Ioan Lloyd, naturally gifted player but Bristol picked him up and before we know it he's playing well in the Prem. Great to see we have this type of player again. I don't think we have since ickle Shane.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 17 Feb 2021, 10:18 am

Is it concerning that Wales seem to relaying so much on the English development of players lately?

Is the Welsh system failing or is it just seen as another genuine route for youngsters to take?

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 17 Feb 2021, 10:24 am

Yes for me it's quite concerning and shows that our academies has been seriously lacking in certain positions for a few years. The recent U20s team was gash too.

It's probably both. If we did have a better system I think a lot of players would still go over to England to attend a prestigious rugby school.

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Post by RiscaGame Wed 17 Feb 2021, 11:18 am

It's definitely the schooling, which is why things like Dragons linking with Llandovery College is happening, where hopefully people won't feel like they have to head to these rugby schools as much. Link

LRZ seemed to have been noticed by Cardiff Blues Academy for example, before education took him away.

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Post by tigertattie Wed 17 Feb 2021, 11:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I still love how people think that you need to “let a player get up” when they go to ground to gather a ball. You don't!

The laws say the ball gatherer must immediately get up, play or release the ball. You do not need to stand there and let them get up. What you can’t do is fall on or over the player on the ground. In this case Harris didn’t, he was on his feet and latched onto the ball which wasn’t immediately released so it should have been a penalty

I thought the laws were that you had to allow for the player to get up or place the ball, I'm sure of it. I could be wrong though. Headscratch

Yeah if you're reading this somewhere Tattie, would be interested to see it if you can post the link? For my benefit btw.

Law 13.1

man its annoying that they keep moving the rulebook - here is a link https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2021/02/16/31af949d-cf47-4838-a790-b5e869b0b78d/World-Rugby-Laws-2021-EN-v3.pdf

Law 13 as 7.5 said
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 17 Feb 2021, 12:02 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is it concerning that Wales seem to relaying so much on the English development of players lately?

Is the Welsh system failing or is it just seen as another genuine route for youngsters to take?

Well, seeing as I do not know if this is a wind up or not, I will still answer. Very Happy

The issue you have here is, you need to ask your clubs to stop sending hundreds, yes hundreds, of scouts over the Severn to poach all our best up and coming players.

It's not our players who go to England looking, it's the other way around. Also, yes, I am very thankful to the English clubs for giving our kids these kids the opportunities.

And the flip side, half our national team have to go back to their English clubs this weekend, now I wonder why the English clubs are sending their vultures to Wales...... Wink

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Feb 2021, 11:04 am

https://youtu.be/bYLlamIA6mA

Thought I'd share this link. Theres a fair few of these and they're great. Explains the set of thoughts for Fagerson incident.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 19 Feb 2021, 12:36 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is it concerning that Wales seem to relaying so much on the English development of players lately?

Saves us having to do it, keep up the good work! (That's tongue in cheek, just to be clear.)

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Post by BamBam Fri 19 Feb 2021, 12:45 pm

Hundreds of scouts eh. If you include the Championship, there’s about 20 fully professional teams, that must mean they have the resources to send at least 10 scouts each to Wales. Given the size of Wales, they would surely need at least 50 scouts to scout England, plus a load more for every other country .

Wonder which clubs have 100 strong scouting departments, can anyone name one?

I think we can file 100s of scouts going to Wales firmly under “things that only happened in Dowlais’ head”

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Post by Noble-Surfer Fri 19 Feb 2021, 12:57 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is it concerning that Wales seem to relaying so much on the English development of players lately?

Is the Welsh system failing or is it just seen as another genuine route for youngsters to take?

I don't think the Welsh system is producing the number of quality players we would like/ need, and I think most of us Welsh fans would be of the opinion that the system does need an overhaul. (Though I'm willing for other Welsh fans to correct me on this). As has been mentioned numerous times over the years on various Welsh club rugby threads, the 'perfect opportunity' for this overhaul was with the introduction of the regions. Sadly, this opportunity was not taken, and we ended up with what we have now

It would be nice to be in a position where we weren't 'relying so much on the English development of players', but the condition for us ending up in that position would be that the best players available to us were being developed in Wales.

Personally, I don't have any problem with us picking players who have learned/ developed their skills in England (or anywhere else), so 'English development of players' is of no concern at all to me. The concern is if the players developed in the Welsh system do not reach a high enough standard to be competitive at international level- if this is the case, then the 'Welsh system' clearly needs an overhaul.


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Post by TJ Fri 19 Feb 2021, 1:23 pm

For me and I know a bit of this is Broken Record but Wales insisting on keeping aging stars in the pro 14 teams reduces chances for Welsh youth to come thru

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Post by chris_501 Fri 19 Feb 2021, 1:37 pm

TJ wrote:For me and I know a bit of this is Broken Record but Wales insisting on keeping aging stars in the pro 14 teams reduces chances for Welsh youth to come thru

Or that during training, these aging stars are able to pass on their knowledge to younger players and in turn, make them better.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 19 Feb 2021, 1:40 pm

TJ wrote:For me and I know a bit of this is Broken Record but Wales insisting on keeping aging stars in the pro 14 teams reduces chances for Welsh youth to come thru

Yeah it is. I've asked you about this before and you only cited AWJ. Do you have any other examples?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 20 Feb 2021, 3:53 pm

Fair points raised, I was genuinely interested.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:00 pm

Given the number of Welsh players in recent history who were born in England you have to think there must be a fair amount of scouting going the other way,

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Post by The Oracle Sat 20 Feb 2021, 8:17 pm

lostinwales wrote:Given the number of Welsh players in recent history who were born in England you have to think there must be a fair amount of scouting going the other way,

It’s called the ‘Welsh Exiles Programme’.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 12:29 pm

BamBam wrote:Hundreds of scouts eh. If you include the Championship, there’s about 20 fully professional teams, that must mean they have the resources to send at least 10 scouts each to Wales. Given the size of Wales, they would surely need at least 50 scouts to scout England, plus a load more for every other country .

Wonder which clubs have 100 strong scouting departments, can anyone name one?

I think we can file 100s of scouts going to Wales firmly under “things that only happened in Dowlais’ head”

Why do you always behave like this ? Most importantly, how are the moderators always letting you get away with you're embarrassing behaviour ?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

Please read the article. Most importantly this bit:-

“I am just disappointed at the comments,” said WRU Head of Rugby Performance Geraint John. “It could be seen as a little bit ironic that the RFU should be saying this about us. It works both ways.” John says scouts from English clubs and colleges are regularly watching Welsh regional age-grade teams looking for gifted players. wrote:

“We ran a Super Series event at the Arms Park last season, where we had six regional U18s teams - one each from the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons, North Wales and Exiles,” he said. “They were squads of 30, so that’s 180 players. “You looked up in the stand and there were all these scouts from England there. wrote:

“They are watching our regional age-grade teams all the time. “There are also teachers here that are linked with English clubs.” Welsh youngsters are ending up at schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups. wrote:

Now please back in the box with you and stop making yourself look foolish.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 22 Feb 2021, 12:36 pm

Why post an article which doesn't confirm your points about 100s of scouts? I'm still all for World Rugby getting involved with better compensation deals for clubs and unions though.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 12:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why post an article which doesn't confirm your points about 100s of scouts? I'm still all for World Rugby getting involved with better compensation deals for clubs and unions though.

Well seeing stands full of scouts and teachers would point you in that direction, you wouldn't say that if it were only one or two would you. Also, BamBam could have been less of an obtrusive person and made his point without being so arrogant about it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 22 Feb 2021, 12:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why post an article which doesn't confirm your points about 100s of scouts? I'm still all for World Rugby getting involved with better compensation deals for clubs and unions though.

Well seeing stands full of scouts and teachers would point you in that direction, you wouldn't say that if it were only one or two would you. Also, BamBam could have been less of an obtrusive person and made his point without being so arrogant about it.

Despite his way of making the point, he's merely saying don't use hyperbole.

Your point was that clubs were sending hundreds on scouts. This article says that 'You looked up in the stand and there were all these scouts from England there.' thats not saying there are hundreds of scouts there. It backs up the overall point though, there needs to be a better comp system. The RFU tried but the other home nations and Ireland declined for obvious reasons.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:04 pm

They are sending hundreds over every season though, scouts from all over England are always at Welsh games, especially the kids games.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:12 pm

I think the point still stands; don't complain about players in English rugby academies playing for other nations when you keep sending your scouts over to entice them in. I'm not entirely comfortable with the residency and other qualification rules, but we're only doing what everyone else is doing. We've lost a few ourselves.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:22 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the point still stands; don't complain about players in English rugby academies playing for other nations when you keep sending your scouts over to entice them in. I'm not entirely comfortable with the residency and other qualification rules, but we're only doing what everyone else is doing. We've lost a few ourselves.

It'll always happen. Too many links across countries for it to not to. Only fair theres money exchanged to cover costs. I know theres some thing in place now but not up to scratch for me.

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Post by BamBam Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:They are sending hundreds over every season though, scouts from all over England are always at Welsh games, especially the kids games.

Laugh Laugh

So what you actually mean is if 2 scouts watch 50 games a season each, that counts as a hundred scouts

laughing


Last edited by BamBam on Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:36 pm

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:They are sending hundreds over every season though, scouts from all over England are always at Welsh games, especially the kids games.

Laugh Laugh

So what you actually mean is if 2 scouts watch 50 games a season each, that counts as a hundred scouts

laughing

Well in that case they are coming over hundreds of times, and just to let you know, it is a lot more than 2.

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Post by BamBam Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:They are sending hundreds over every season though, scouts from all over England are always at Welsh games, especially the kids games.

Laugh Laugh

So what you actually mean is if 2 scouts watch 50 games a season each, that counts as a hundred scouts

laughing

Well in that case they are coming over hundreds of times, and just to let you know, it is a lot more than 2.

So its 1 scout per team, 20 teams, they watch 50 games a season each.

Its thousands of scouts, not hundreds!! You're understating the scale of the problem!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:41 pm

BamBam wrote:Its thousands of scouts, not hundreds!! You're understating the scale of the problem!

Could be. So why does the English system need to send all these scouts to Wales ? Can you answer that ?

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