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Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO)

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Post by bsando Mon 08 Feb 2021, 8:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland vs Wales

Referee: Matthew Carley (England)
Assistant Referee 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant Referee 2: Andrea Piardi (Italy)
TMO: Karl Dickson (England)

Teams

Scotland Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO) - Page 9 Outlan10

1 Rory Sutherland
2 George Turner
3 Zander Fagerson
4 Scott Cummings
5 Jonny Gray (Vice Captain)
6 Blade Thomson
7 Hamish Watson
8 Matt Fagerson
9 Ali Price
10 Finn Russell (Vice Captain)
11 Duhan van der Merwe
12 James Lang
13 Chris Harris
14 Darcy Graham
15 Stuart Hogg (Captain)

16 David Cherry
17 Oli Kebble
18 WP Nel
19 Richie Gray
20 Gary Graham
21 Scott Steele
22 Jaco van der Walt
23 Huw Jones

WalesScotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO) - Page 9 Tom_jo10

1 Wyn Jones
2 Ken Owens
3 Tomas Francis
4 Adam Beard
5 Alun Wyn Jones (Captain)
6 Aaron Wainwright
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Taulupe Faletau
9 Gareth Davies
10 Dan Biggar
11 Liam Williams
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Owen Watkin
14 Louis Rees-Zammit
15 Leigh Halfpenny

16 Elliot Dee
17 Rhodri Jones
18 Leon Brown
19 Will Rowlands
20 James Botham
21 Kieran Hardy
22 Callum Sheedy
23 Uilisi Halaholo

Recent Results

2017: SCO 29 - WAL 13
2018: WAL 34 - SCO 7 & WAL 21 - SCO 10
2019: SCO 11 - WAL 18
2020: WAL 10 - SCO 14

Overall
Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO) - Page 9 Screen26


Last edited by bsando on Thu 11 Feb 2021, 1:52 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Post by R!skysports Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:35 am

Would have liked to see the final few seconds after the great tap tackle. Was sure Harris was clamped over the ball for about 5 seconds and no holding on called. Another big call but would need to see that again

Was surprised that if one charge in to a ruck was given a red the other on Watson, after the whistle was not even penalised (yes not head but more deliberate and not even a penalty)

Sadly the interpretation of laws make the game too random and sadly Scotland seems still to get the raw end of the deal. Maybe once we consistently start winning the perception will change, but you almost know this is going to happen

Is sad, as it was a good game and both sides had moments of controls And brilliance. Just go

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Post by Blanko Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:31 pm

Wales the benefit 2 weeks in a row due to 2 ejits

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:45 pm

Ok, I think we need to put a few things straight here, again, as a Welshman I will take the victory, but again it feels a little hollow.

I think Wales were in the ascendancy in the second half even before the red card. Scotland did not have a try disallowed, the on field decision was that the ball was held up, all Scotland lost out on was a 5m scrum, a position they were in because firstly Biggar missed touch with a penalty and a stupid knock on because Tompkins was not paying attention. Wales came out in the second half like a bull at a gate.

The red card was a stone wall decision, Zander Fagerson was reckless, and he knew what he was doing, cheap shots have no place in todays game, we have all seen it, he run at the ruck from a distance, he had a lot of time to contemplate as he was running towards the ruck, he decided to not bind on any player whilst clearing out but instead he decided to lead with his shoulder, whether it was a head or any other part of the body, it would have been brutal if it made full contact, as a professional he must know the rules, so ask yourself why he did it ?

On the positives, Hogg must be 1st choice full back for the Lions now, he is just a joy to watch, and the much spoken about Welsh line out was almost perfect. We lost our first one, and I thought it was going to be a long day, but we soon won the battle of the set piece. This I felt is where the game was won in the end, because not only did we win the rest of our lineouts, we spoiled and stole a lot of the Scottish ones which disrupted their momentum. The Welsh forwards to a man were better than the Scottish yesterday. It was the Scottish backs who were keeping the Scottish momentum going, Hogg and Russel in particular. I thought Scotland were also lucky in the scrums.

All in all this game was a great advert for NH rugby where we were starting to be stuck with the stigma of being boring and pragmatic.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:01 pm

Wales deserved their win lord dowalis, none of us are questioning that. That said, our forwards discipline did not help and gave Wales the momentum. It's another should have could have with Scotland and is why we Scottish fans are so pessimistic. Likelihood is that this year was our best shot at glory and we rogered it in the only way we know how. Shooting ourselves in the foot.

No disrespect intended, I'll repeat Wales are deserved winners because they played what was in front of them but Scotland should have won given their early dominance.

It's best summarised as that is why Wales have won so many GrandSlams, and Scotland have barely managed to stay off the bottom most years. They have a bloody mindedness that only seems to come out in Scotland against England.
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Post by LordDowlais Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:04 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Wales deserved their win lord dowalis, none of us are questioning that.

I wouldn't have complained if the score line was reversed. I thought Hogg and Russel were a class above their Welsh counterparts, Wales were clearly looking a lot better when Liam Williams went to full back and Biggar went off.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:05 pm

Bring that A game to Paris and Scotland will do well. Russell, VDM and Hogg are likely Lions test starters. Sutherland and both your locks stand a good chance too, as does Watson despite the fact there are a hell of a lot of good open-sides.

Hopefully you have Ireland at home, you can get a win there. Italy is a given, so it could be a decent tournament for Scotland.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:02 pm

The Welsh forwards were not to a man better than Scotland.

Watson was immense as was Jonny Gray. Both out played their welsh counterparts by some margin

The difference was our pack as a whole gave away too many penalties. Those penalties came from the fagerson boys and Gray Graham. The rest of the pack was actually very good.
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Post by LordDowlais Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:38 pm

tigertattie wrote:Watson was immense as was Jonny Gray. Both out played their welsh counterparts by some margin

They had their moments, but they did not outplay their counterparts by some margin, in fact Johny Gray was quite anonymous by his usual high standards, the line out in particular he was not at his best.

To use the phrase "some margin" is a bit of a stretch.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 4:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Watson was immense as was Jonny Gray. Both out played their welsh counterparts by some margin

They had their moments, but they did not outplay their counterparts by some margin, in fact Johny Gray was quite anonymous by his usual high standards, the line out in  particular he was not at his best.

To use the phrase "some margin" is a bit of a stretch.

Ok

5. Jonny Gray
4 passes
11 runs
34m gained
1 clean break
9 tackles
0 missed
0 penalties conceded

5. AWJ
0 passes
3 runs
4m gained
0 clean breaks
13 tackles
0 missed
4 penalties conceded

So Jones did nothing in attack and made 4 more tackles than Gray but gave 4 penalties away to Gray’s 0

Don’t know about you but that is “some margin”
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Post by bsando Sun 14 Feb 2021, 4:39 pm

It seems very even amongst the four home nations and I think that is a good thing for the Lions. It's going to be interesting to see the ratio of players Gatland selects from each country. It should be an aggressive shakeup from 2017's tour. There are some really promising young players coming through in all four nations and no one team so far looks better than the other.

But to be honest for all my excitement I sometimes forget Gatland is a pretty conservative coach and thus he will likely pick a lot of England, Welsh and Irish players and those with credit in the bank.

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Post by whatahitson Sun 14 Feb 2021, 4:54 pm

I don't think Watson outplayed Tipuric. Both were great and should tour with the Lions now Willis is injured.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:02 pm

The Sunday Times have put out some awful player-ratings for this one.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:18 pm

whatahitson wrote:I don't think Watson outplayed Tipuric.  Both were great and should tour with the Lions now Willis is injured.

Closer but Watson still better

Scotland has 62% of Possession in the game but Watson still made 18 tackles to Tipuric’s 13. Runs and meters made very close and the only other factor was tipuric conceding a turnover while Watson conceded none. Tipuric played well, it’s just that Watson played better.

My point being that it’s completely incorrect to say the Welsh pack was better to a man than the Scottish when actually the difference was our tighthead prop and both starting and replacement number 8s where the ones who were poor. The rest of the pack went toe to toe with Gray and Watson even surpassing their opposite numbers.
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Post by whatahitson Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:38 pm

tigertattie wrote:
whatahitson wrote:I don't think Watson outplayed Tipuric.  Both were great and should tour with the Lions now Willis is injured.

Closer but Watson still better

Scotland has 62% of Possession in the game but Watson still made 18 tackles to Tipuric’s 13. Runs and meters made very close and the only other factor was tipuric conceding a turnover while Watson conceded none. Tipuric played well, it’s just that Watson played better.

My point being that it’s completely incorrect to say the Welsh pack was better to a man than the Scottish when actually the difference was our tighthead prop and both starting and replacement number 8s where the ones who were poor. The rest of the pack went toe to toe with Gray and Watson even surpassing their opposite numbers.

From a neutral perspective I disagree. Both played well and what is the quote lies damn lies and statistics. Tipuric is more involved with passing than Watson. Anyway just my opinion I think you probably have a dog in the fight I don't. I would like both of them on tour for the Lions. As for the rest of the packs I thought Grey was excellent and Jones the Wales prop. It went back and forward no team was the obvious winner it was so close which the scoreboard showed.

On the highlights you also see how easily Scotland scored their tries. Two of them were from big mistakes by Wales one halfpenny and then one because Sheedy and Watkin somehow managed to turn a two man advantage in to a two on one for Hogg. Scotland were unlucky at the very end Hogg is fantastic and probably deserved to score the winning try but it's not like Wales didn't hand Scotland points because they did. The mistakes weren't just made by Scotland but that's what I'm hearing after the match. It was a game of two evenly match teams in my view. Great to watch shame about the red card.


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Post by chris_501 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:11 pm

R!skysports wrote:Would have liked to see the final few seconds after the great tap tackle.  Was sure Harris was clamped over the ball for about 5 seconds and no holding on called. Another big call but would need to see that again

Was surprised that if one charge in to a ruck was given a red the other on Watson, after the whistle was not even penalised (yes not head but more deliberate and not even a penalty)

Sadly the interpretation of laws make the game too random and sadly Scotland seems still to get the raw end of the deal.  Maybe once we consistently start winning the perception will change, but you almost know this is going to happen

Is sad, as it was a good game and both sides had moments of controls And brilliance. Just go

I'm pretty sure that Hogg knocked on leading to that ruck, so even if Wales conceded a penalty, the game was over anyway.

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Post by R!skysports Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:13 pm

chris_501 wrote:
R!skysports wrote:Would have liked to see the final few seconds after the great tap tackle.  Was sure Harris was clamped over the ball for about 5 seconds and no holding on called. Another big call but would need to see that again

Was surprised that if one charge in to a ruck was given a red the other on Watson, after the whistle was not even penalised (yes not head but more deliberate and not even a penalty)

Sadly the interpretation of laws make the game too random and sadly Scotland seems still to get the raw end of the deal.  Maybe once we consistently start winning the perception will change, but you almost know this is going to happen

Is sad, as it was a good game and both sides had moments of controls And brilliance. Just go

I'm pretty sure that Hogg knocked on leading to that ruck, so even if Wales conceded a penalty, the game was over anyway.

It was the welsh player who got in the way and batted it back, not Hogg

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Post by chris_501 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:32 pm

R!skysports wrote:
chris_501 wrote:
R!skysports wrote:Would have liked to see the final few seconds after the great tap tackle.  Was sure Harris was clamped over the ball for about 5 seconds and no holding on called. Another big call but would need to see that again

Was surprised that if one charge in to a ruck was given a red the other on Watson, after the whistle was not even penalised (yes not head but more deliberate and not even a penalty)

Sadly the interpretation of laws make the game too random and sadly Scotland seems still to get the raw end of the deal.  Maybe once we consistently start winning the perception will change, but you almost know this is going to happen

Is sad, as it was a good game and both sides had moments of controls And brilliance. Just go

I'm pretty sure that Hogg knocked on leading to that ruck, so even if Wales conceded a penalty, the game was over anyway.

It was the welsh player who got in the way and batted it back, not Hogg

Apologies, my mistake then.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:42 pm

Was the scoreline so close because Scotland was down to 14 men after the red card, or Wales was so bad they could not break Scotland defence?

I was expecting Wales to run away with it after the red card i mean.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:55 pm

V2’s very own Dylan Cretin Rolling Eyes

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Post by Noble-Surfer Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:00 pm

I'd like to see Hardy & Sheedy start for us ahead of Davies & Biggar for the England game - thought we looked much better in attack with them on the pitch.

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Post by RDW Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:54 pm

Been a lot of chat on social media about the aftermath of the Duhan break at the death. Looks like there was a clear tackle off the ball on Hogg, after Williams knocked it back which should have been a penality in a very kickable position. Townsend wasn't happy about a holding on penalty call immediately after too.

https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=19

Obviously in a game if you look closely enough you'll find penalties missed for both teams.

As I said early on - fine margins decided this game! They generally all went out way against England, even down to the bounce of a ball, but didn't this time. As has been said many times, we shouldn't even have found ourselves in this position having built up a healthy lead.

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Post by The Oracle Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:59 pm

I’m sorry, but the ball was thrown inside to Hogg so Williams had every right to go for the tackle if Hogg was just about to receive the ball. I see on the Scotland thread that people think Williams knocked it backwards. I’ve searched and searched and this is the only clip I can find and to me it is unclear at best. To me it looks like Hogg knocks it on. And if that is the case then Williams was right to tackle him as Hogg would have been about to catch the ball. Happy to stand corrected if I can be shown a better angle.
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Post by The Oracle Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:03 pm

Sorry, I’ve just seen the next tweet down on the link with the better angle.  Yes it does look like Williams knocks it backwards. So no knock on from Hogg.  I don’t see a penalty offence against Williams though, personally.
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Post by RDW Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:09 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it really matters whether he thought Hogg had the ball or not - it's still a tackle off the ball, so penalty. Usually that kind of thing is taken into consideration for whether it is a yellow or not (as well as what was going on at the time, i.e. scoring opportunity etc).

In any case. for me Williams could clearly see Hogg didn't have the ball - you can even see Williams looking to where the ball has bounced to as he tackles Hogg.

To be clear this isn't a "we wuz robbed" post - as I said I'm sure if you look over the 80 there's things missed for both teams. It just adds an interesting debate to the crazy end of the game, and accentuates just how fine the margins were in this game. Watkins was literally millimeters from missing Duhan, and I would have been very surprised if LRZ would have stopped him at full flow from there (indeed he was just about to slip at that point).

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:15 am

Disappointing to hear Hamish Watson's interview, where he gives his thoughts on the red card. Totally the wrong message to send out. I assume it was fairly close to the game, so emotions were still pretty high, but I think he would've been better batting off the question really.

I am also surprised that Wyn Jones didn't have to have a HIA. Be interesting to see if anything gets said about that too.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:23 am

https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back, -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


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Post by LordDowlais Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:25 am

RiscaGame wrote:Disappointing to hear Hamish Watson's interview, where he gives his thoughts on the red card. Totally the wrong message to send out. I assume it was fairly close to the game, so emotions were still pretty high, but I think he would've been better batting off the question really.

I am also surprised that Wyn Jones didn't have to have a HIA. Be interesting to see if anything gets said about that too.

I think it was more to do with the potential damage Zander Fagerson could have caused if he did make full blown contact. HIA or no HIA these types of cheap shots are no longer tolerated.

I've seen a lot of complaints from the Scottish fan base along numerous social media platforms. But instead of moaning, they need to ask themselves why Fagerson did what he did ? He is professional rugby player, surely he knows the rules before he steps onto the pitch.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:30 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:Disappointing to hear Hamish Watson's interview, where he gives his thoughts on the red card. Totally the wrong message to send out. I assume it was fairly close to the game, so emotions were still pretty high, but I think he would've been better batting off the question really.

I am also surprised that Wyn Jones didn't have to have a HIA. Be interesting to see if anything gets said about that too.

I think it was more to do with the potential damage Zander Fagerson could have caused if he did make full blown contact. HIA or no HIA these types of cheap shots are no longer tolerated.

I've seen a lot of complaints from the Scottish fan base along numerous social media platforms. But instead of moaning, they need to ask themselves why Fagerson did what he did ? He is professional rugby player, surely he knows the rules before he steps onto the pitch.

I think it is called clearing out. I think if this sort of thing is now penalised consistency, we will be playing 5 a side from now on

There is no law (that I know about) that is you are 5 yards away from a ruck you can not join it - which seems to be the ref main issue. He looked in control (check how he finishes in the perfect protection position) and his left arm wraps




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Post by chris_501 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:34 am

R!skysports wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:Disappointing to hear Hamish Watson's interview, where he gives his thoughts on the red card. Totally the wrong message to send out. I assume it was fairly close to the game, so emotions were still pretty high, but I think he would've been better batting off the question really.

I am also surprised that Wyn Jones didn't have to have a HIA. Be interesting to see if anything gets said about that too.

I think it was more to do with the potential damage Zander Fagerson could have caused if he did make full blown contact. HIA or no HIA these types of cheap shots are no longer tolerated.

I've seen a lot of complaints from the Scottish fan base along numerous social media platforms. But instead of moaning, they need to ask themselves why Fagerson did what he did ? He is professional rugby player, surely he knows the rules before he steps onto the pitch.

I think it is called clearing out. I think if this sort of thing is now penalised consistency, we will be playing 5 a side from now on

There is no law (that I know about) that is you are 5 yards away from a ruck you can not join it - which seems to be the ref main issue. He looked in control (check how he finishes in the perfect protection position) and his left arm wraps




I'm afraid that wasn't the case at all, unless he intentionally meant to go shoulder to head?

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Post by The Oracle Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:37 am

RDW wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it really matters whether he thought Hogg had the ball or not - it's still a tackle off the ball, so penalty. Usually that kind of thing is taken into consideration for whether it is a yellow or not (as well as what was going on at the time, i.e. scoring opportunity etc).

In any case. for me Williams could clearly see Hogg didn't have the ball - you can even see Williams looking to where the ball has bounced to as he tackles Hogg.

To be clear this isn't a "we wuz robbed" post - as I said I'm sure if you look over the 80 there's things missed for both teams. It just adds an interesting debate to the crazy end of the game, and accentuates just how fine the margins were in this game. Watkins was literally millimeters from missing Duhan, and I would have been very surprised if LRZ would have stopped him at full flow from there (indeed he was just about to slip at that point).

Hi RDW, yes I know it's not a 'we woz robbed' post. You're not that sort of poster Hug

I think the slowed down footage makes it look worse. You could probably see him shooting JFK if you slowed it down enough Smile

For me Liam Williams is the cover tackler. He's tracking across and the ball is thrown inside to Hogg. LW doesn't change course and, for me, is committed to the tackle. The ball would have landed in Hogg's hands if LW had not knocked it backwards. I'm not sure if he knew, in real time, that he was knocking it backwards or if it just came off his hand when he put his arms up to tackle? Who knows. Yes, tackles off the ball are illegal but seemingly allowed when it's the attacking team? E.g. Dummy runners crashing into the defense in midfield and taking a tackle or contact without the ball which allows space out wide. You also see hits allowed where the player ships the ball on at the very last moment but the defender is committed. So it is allowed to a certain degree. It's often if it is very late or if the player changes their line of run that it is deemed an offence.

When you watch this incident at fill speed I just think he's committed to the tackle, the ball has hit Williams in the process, the ball then takes a different trajectory which Hogg was unable to get with his line and momentum and Williams is unable to pull out of his line of travel. Didn't see Hogg or any of his tram mates complaining either which suggests they didn't feel anything untoward had happened.

AS you say, final margins though.

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:41 am

R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


It wouldn't have been a penalty try. Penalty possibly.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:41 am

R!skysports wrote:I think it is called clearing out. I think if this sort of thing is now penalised consistency, we will be playing 5 a side from now on

There is no law (that I know about) that is you are 5 yards away from a ruck you can not join it - which seems to be the ref main issue. He looked in control (check how he finishes in the perfect protection position) and his left arm wraps

WOW.

I do not know if this is serious or not.

He ran in from at least 10 yards out, so he had all that time to contemplate what he wanted to do, I would assume as a pro he knows the rules, he went off his feet and led with the shoulder.

You need to bind with the player before you clear him out and you should not enter the ruck lower than the height of your hips. I would assume that Zander Fargerson knows all this ?

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Post by tigertattie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:45 am

There's a difference between tackling someone who gets the ball away before you hit them and tackling someone before they get the ball!

Also Hogg does speak to the ref about the incident but the ref didn’t take it on at all

I think it's just frustrating when a game doesn’t go your way when you feel like the big ref calls haven’t gone for you. Many are saying that Zander's red was harsh but I'm still in the camp that he shouldn’t have given the ref the option of carding him by not charging into the ruck with his arm tucked in. That being said the ref got the off the ball tackle call at the end wrong and also didn’t blow up for holding on when after the ball was knocked back a welsh player scooped it up, lay on the floor while Chris Harris was on his feet and clamped on. The ref and the TMO just didn’t want to get involved by this point.
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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:50 am

RiscaGame wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


It wouldn't have been a penalty try. Penalty possibly.

If he is the last line of defence, then it would have been a penalty try - as he stopped Hogg strolling in. Not sure if there was cover though, but certainly a yellow and penalty - tackling a player off the ball, that close to a scoring posiiton


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Post by LordDowlais Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:54 am

R!skysports wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


It wouldn't have been a penalty try. Penalty possibly.

If he is the last line of defence, then it would have been a penalty try - as he stopped Hogg strolling in. Not sure if there was cover though, but certainly a yellow and penalty - tackling a player off the ball, that close to a scoring posiiton


Yes there was cover LRZ was there.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


It wouldn't have been a penalty try. Penalty possibly.

If he is the last line of defence, then it would have been a penalty try - as he stopped Hogg strolling in. Not sure if there was cover though, but certainly a yellow and penalty - tackling a player off the ball, that close to a scoring posiiton


Yes there was cover LRZ was there.

Was he still not on his back :-)


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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:59 am

BTW - While I am passionate about Scotland, I want to re-iterate, my thoughts are on some of the Key decisions and not the Welsh players (or fans).

I thought it was a cracking game, and one, we should have won with

a) A little better composure and game management
b) A little kinder ref :-)

A - we need to improve
B - Who knows,s it just feels Scotland get the raw deal far too often on these

So on the performances of each team

Wales better
Breakdown, line out, Driving maul

Scotland Better
Scrum (mostly), attacking play, Penalty kicks

Evens (mostly)
Defense
General open play forward


:-)

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Post by TJ Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:03 am

On the reffing points - It did feel to me that the calls went against us in this match where they went for us in the england match - but that is irrelevant.

Why we lost was not putting away our chances again. The key turning point for me was the correct obstruction decision on the line. Pen wales, lineout, pen wales, lineout, try wales IIRC

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:11 am

TJ wrote:On the reffing points - It did feel to me that the calls went against us in this match where they went for us in the england match - but that is irrelevant.

Why we lost was not putting away our chances again.  The key turning point for me was the correct obstruction decision on the line.  Pen wales, lineout, pen wales, lineout, try wales  IIRC


I thought was correct decision for the scrum, as we had clear ascendancy at that point, and fine margins that was a try (correct decision to not allow it).

the 4 penalties in a row were so frustrating

As was Price kicking the ball away in the last minute - What the Fing F :-O

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:19 am

Haha. Not long after I posted, Hamish Watson has tweeted about the interview. So it was in the immediate aftermath then, so you can understand the emotions are still high.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:I think it is called clearing out. I think if this sort of thing is now penalised consistency, we will be playing 5 a side from now on

There is no law (that I know about) that is you are 5 yards away from a ruck you can not join it - which seems to be the ref main issue. He looked in control (check how he finishes in the perfect protection position) and his left arm wraps

WOW.

I do not know if this is serious or not.

He ran in from at least 10 yards out, so he had all that time to contemplate what he wanted to do, I would assume as a pro he knows the rules, he went off his feet and led with the shoulder.

You need to bind with the player before you clear him out and you should not enter the ruck lower than the height of your hips. I would assume that Zander Fargerson knows all this ?

In the aftermath of the game on Saturday I came across, on BBCsport I think, the relevant IRB law as regards charging into rucks and mauls. To paraphrase, a player must not charge (run at speed) into a ruck or maul from a distance, a player must bind safely onto an opponent using his arms before driving them off. A player must be in control of his body when he makes contact with an opponent. Obviously I'm doing this from memory and the wording is not verbatim
My point is that if the refs began applying this law to the letter 99% of players would be carded at your average ruck. The laws around rucks and mauls, but especially rucks, are a shambles. Players are constantly diving in, going off their feet, taking no real care of their opposite number. I read the IRB law to my teenage son and his response was that if you don't hit the ruck, or maul, with momentum you won't shift the player you're attempting to clear out: if you jog up, bind onto him then attempt to drive him off you'll never manage it. When Dave Rennie took over at Glasgow one of the first things he demanded was the forwards work on was bringing "more brutality" to the breakdown. i.e. Hit it at greater speed and blast the opposition out of it. The scope for injuries, spine/neck/ribs is truly frightening if you think of it.
It's worth noting that Zander Fagerson weighs about 126kg or over 19 stone in old money. If Wyn Jones had stayed on his feet and latched onto the ball and Zander had flown into his back/shoulders, entering "through the gate, there would have been no penalty. Marginally safer but still, in the long term, not and ideal way for a man to earn his living.

In the interests of full disclosure I'm old enough that when I started playing rugby the rule at rucks was stay on your feet, bind onto an opposition player, drive them back and use your feet to play the ball back to your scrum half. Obviously as the tackled player, or tackler, there was always the risk of being stood on or kicked. Often times teams would have a nutter who loved stamping on people...but that is why we have referees. When the new ruck laws were introduced it did occur to me that when I latched onto the ball over a tackled player my head and neck were totally exposed to opposition players attempting to clear me out. Coaches, including me in later years, would go on about "win the battle of the shoulders" but running on a muddy field and trying to get your body low enough and straight enough is , at best, a very inexact science. Most people hit where they can with their shoulders. When you introduce highly trained gym monkeys who have been coached on "bringing more brutality" into the breakdown it is positively dangerous.
The current laws are failing to protect players and need to be reviewed/clarified.


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Post by LordDowlais Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:34 am

R!skysports wrote:I thought was correct decision for the scrum, as we had clear ascendancy at that point, and fine margins that was a try (correct decision to not allow it).

The on field decision was the ball was held up anyway, so I don't think the try would have been given. The ref clearly said this as he was checking for the obstruction.

Also, I do not think you had clear ascendancy, as you were in that position because firstly Dan Biggar missed his kick to touch, and Tompkins then knocked the ball on.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:58 am

R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:13 am

RiscaGame wrote:
RDW wrote:Ah man not a good score to wake up to this time!

Sounds like a hell of a match for a neutral, but hugely frustrating for a Scotland fan. I'm looking forward to seeing the tries at least.

Wales 2 from 2 - can they do it?

Nah, even if they squeak a win in two weeks, I don’t see them winning in Paris.

I'd take a triple crown after last season's showing!

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:18 am

Oh yeah, definitely.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:49 am

I'd take a triple crown and Pat Lam.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 1:44 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

This makes no sense

he hit it back first then tackled Hogg, so the ball was not where near Hogg to pick up

It was as clear as day a yellow (IMO)


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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 1:47 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:I thought was correct decision for the scrum, as we had clear ascendancy at that point, and fine margins that was a try (correct decision to not allow it).

The on field decision was the ball was held up anyway, so I don't think the try would have been given. The ref clearly said this as he was checking for the obstruction.

Also, I do not think you had clear ascendancy, as you were in that position because firstly Dan Biggar missed his kick to touch, and Tompkins then knocked the ball on.

Yes, the fine margin was if it had gone to the front runner rather than the second runner (which I think everyone at first thought it had), I think he would not have been stopped. However it went to the second man, who got held up and had obstruction :-)
But certainly correct ref decision

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 15 Feb 2021, 1:59 pm

R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

This makes no sense

he hit it back first then tackled Hogg, so the ball was not where near Hogg to pick up

It was as clear as day a yellow (IMO)


Of course it makes sense. LW arguably hit the ball backwards whilst in the process of attempting to tackle Hogg (at that point he had not made contact with him). Whether LW intended to do so is anyone's guess. Not my problem if you don't understand that.

Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that one.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 15 Feb 2021, 2:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:https://twitter.com/StuartMDarling/status/1360922729327828992?s=20

Williams knocks it back,  -so knows Hogg does not have the ball. Should be a yellow and possible penalty try as it is cynical - (he hit the ball back so KNOWS hog does not have it)


Would be harsh, as you can argue Liam Williams timed it well enough to tackle Hogg as soon as he got the ball - but ended up hitting it back anyway. Pretty clever play from LW then. Also there was a previous holding on that was missed - also not sure LRZ was holding on as technically he wasn't tackled. He dived on the ball.

This makes no sense

he hit it back first then tackled Hogg, so the ball was not where near Hogg to pick up

It was as clear as day a yellow (IMO)


Of course it makes sense. LW arguably hit the ball backwards whilst in the process of attempting to tackle Hogg (at that point he had not made contact with him). Whether LW intended to do so is anyone's guess. Not my problem if you don't understand that.

Yellow would have been a ridiculous call for that one.

If you watch the clip, the 2 actions are not linked. Williams is side by side to Hogg, bats the ball back, Hogg gets ahead then he fully tackles him, grabbing round his waist then down his legs.

Look at the 2 clips and it is very clear - unless you choose to ignore the images
https://twitter.com/thistlerugbypod/status/1360881279135277056

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