Scotland vs Wales (13th Feb, 4.45pm KO)

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Scotland vs Wales

Referee: Matthew Carley (England)
Assistant Referee 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant Referee 2: Andrea Piardi (Italy)
TMO: Karl Dickson (England)

Teams

Scotland

1 Rory Sutherland
2 George Turner
3 Zander Fagerson
4 Scott Cummings
5 Jonny Gray (Vice Captain)
6 Blade Thomson
7 Hamish Watson
8 Matt Fagerson
9 Ali Price
10 Finn Russell (Vice Captain)
11 Duhan van der Merwe
12 James Lang
13 Chris Harris
14 Darcy Graham
15 Stuart Hogg (Captain)

16 David Cherry
17 Oli Kebble
18 WP Nel
19 Richie Gray
20 Gary Graham
21 Scott Steele
22 Jaco van der Walt
23 Huw Jones

Wales

1 Wyn Jones
2 Ken Owens
3 Tomas Francis
4 Adam Beard
5 Alun Wyn Jones (Captain)
6 Aaron Wainwright
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Taulupe Faletau
9 Gareth Davies
10 Dan Biggar
11 Liam Williams
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Owen Watkin
14 Louis Rees-Zammit
15 Leigh Halfpenny

16 Elliot Dee
17 Rhodri Jones
18 Leon Brown
19 Will Rowlands
20 James Botham
21 Kieran Hardy
22 Callum Sheedy
23 Uilisi Halaholo

Recent Results

2017: SCO 29 - WAL 13
2018: WAL 34 - SCO 7 & WAL 21 - SCO 10
2019: SCO 11 - WAL 18
2020: WAL 10 - SCO 14

Overall

I just hope LRZ stays now in the bigboys league and not the second class stuff a lot of the other Welsh players are confined to

Ah Scottish Rugby, the glorious defeat is back!!

All credit to Wales. Bags of character and that 12 year old on the wing can play a bit.

Hopefully we can produce a reaction against France. Oddly enough, we probably have a better chance in that game now, such is the way of Scottish Rugby!!

Have to say again, Leon Brown was quality in the scrum and made an impression round the park.

Hard lines Scotland. I never believed we would win, even in the last minute.

RiscaGame wrote:Have to say again, Leon Brown was quality in the scrum and made an impression round the park.

Hard lines Scotland. I never believed we would win, even in the last minute.

So Dee and Brown are a bit better than Elias and Lewis then...

MonkeyMan wrote:I just hope LRZ stays now in the bigboys league and not the second class stuff a lot of the other Welsh players are confined to

Did LRZ join the top 14 or something?

I think there's an argument for Hardy & Sheedy to start for us in the next game.
Glad to get the win, but I'm still not convinced by our perormances...

Wonder if Gatland knows South Africa play with 15 men?

alive555 wrote:Wonder if Gatland knows South Africa play with 15 men?

Eh?!

Both teams looked dead on their feet.

Re ferguson red card, was it really a dangerous tackle?

majesticimperialman wrote:Re ferguson red card, was it really a dangerous tackle?

Yes had he not been moving out of the way. Basically the top of his shoulder scraped the guys nose. Yellow at the very most. Dreadful decision.

Pressure on England to keep 15 on the field Vs Wales.

No, it wasn’t a tackle Madge

Was AWJ injured or just subed off due to exhaustion?

TightHEAD wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Re ferguson red card, was it really a dangerous tackle?

Yes had he not been moving out of the way. Basically the top of his shoulder scraped the guys nose. Yellow at the very most. Dreadful decision.

Pressure on England to keep 15 on the field Vs Wales.

It isn't a mitigating factor that he just so happened to lift his head and Fagersons should barely touched him. If that doesn't happen and it's beyond his control that his shoulder directly to head.

As a neutral and an interested Englishman looking in and surveying our next opponents, I feel that Wales have been quite lucky to have won their last two games. Of course, they can't help the other side getting a player red carded, but they have struggled. Against 15 men I feel they would have lost. Well done for duking it out though.

Also a big cheer for the fabulous LRZ who lit up the field today. Long may he continue to impress. Well played

And Wales will ALWAYS raise their game against England. We will need to be on it.

tigertattie wrote:Time to get Zander off. He’s just not controlling his aggression today

RiscaGame wrote:Have to say again, Leon Brown was quality in the scrum and made an impression round the park.

Talk about performing under pressure. Scrums going backwards, your 5m out from your own line and your replacement was just pinged in the same position before you came on. Will he keep the shirt for next time out?

TightHEAD wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Re ferguson red card, was it really a dangerous tackle?

Yes had he not been moving out of the way. Basically the top of his shoulder scraped the guys nose. Yellow at the very most. Dreadful decision.

Pressure on England to keep 15 on the field Vs Wales.

It was a really poor decision in my opinion, and absolutely not what a red card is for at all. Not at all similar to POM last week.

Such a pity as well. Cracking game and I dont want to take anything away from Wales. They had a bunch on injuries to cover and at 17-3 down many teams would have folded. They stuck with it, held on when they needed to and had class out wide (which, by the way, they need to use far more effectively).

Scotland players will be sore after that. A few chances to put the game away weren't taken. Composure was lacking in a few players, but a huge effort in that last 30 minutes.

king_carlos wrote:I actually think the 'mitigation' of the player being lifted up made that better for Fagerson. If he doesn't shift up then Fagerson just dives into the top of his head, because he was lifted up it's more of glancing blow and looks better. A fair red in my opinion. Straight on his feet, arm in no position to bind and contact with the head.

That was how I saw it. Had Jones not moved he was going to get it square on the crown. It spoils the game but there can be no complaints.

Gooseberry wrote:Never been much of a Hogg fanboy but he's showing what all the fuss is about this tournament. Playing himself into the Lions starting berth surely.

The best player in the British Isles IMO. Only Dupont looks better in Europe. At least for the backs.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Have to say again, Leon Brown was quality in the scrum and made an impression round the park.

Talk about performing under pressure. Scrums going backwards, your 5m out from your own line and your replacement was just pinged in the same position before you came on. Will he keep the shirt for next time out?

I doubt there will be changes to the starting front-row and replacements... having said that you never know with Pivac. Perhaps Francis was tired, he’s still over 20 stone, and the Scots had a bee in their bonnet.

hugehandoff wrote:Wales certainly miss JD (and HP)

A drunk magician? Jack Daniels and Harry Potter? I thought he was playing rugby league now

If you look at the way JD has been playing lately then that’s a no. We need to persist with North at 13, with Halaholo at 12. Would also put Sheedy or Jarrod Evans at 10. Shoot me down if you must but backs have mostly been awful.

Ah man not a good score to wake up to this time!

Sounds like a hell of a match for a neutral, but hugely frustrating for a Scotland fan. I'm looking forward to seeing the tries at least.

Wales 2 from 2 - can they do it?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Have to say again, Leon Brown was quality in the scrum and made an impression round the park.

Talk about performing under pressure. Scrums going backwards, your 5m out from your own line and your replacement was just pinged in the same position before you came on. Will he keep the shirt for next time out?

I think he’s a handy replacement. Just glad to see him in the 23, considering how things have gone with him gaining an unfair rep.

mikey_dragon wrote:If you look at the way JD has been playing lately then that’s a no. We need to persist with North at 13, with Halaholo at 12. Would also put Sheedy or Jarrod Evans at 10. Shoot me down if you must but backs have mostly been awful.

Yea for that 10-12-13.

RDW wrote:Ah man not a good score to wake up to this time!

Sounds like a hell of a match for a neutral, but hugely frustrating for a Scotland fan. I'm looking forward to seeing the tries at least.

Wales 2 from 2 - can they do it?

Nah, even if they squeak a win in two weeks, I don’t see them winning in Paris.

Why is the England Italy thread still blocked yet you have time to post here?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is the England Italy thread still blocked yet you have time to post here?

Just catching up with the mods on it now - it looks to have been a complete mess that needs tidying up. Wont happen straight away (and I've not long just woken up).

RDW wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is the England Italy thread still blocked yet you have time to post here?

Just catching up with the mods on it now - it looks to have been a complete mess that needs tidying up. Wont happen straight away (and I've not long just woken up).

Ok. Ta.

Did Cameron Redpath get any game today, do not remember seeing him on the field?

majesticimperialman wrote:Did Cameron Redpath get any game today, do not remember seeing him on the field?

Injured from the England game sadly Maj. Same with Ritchie and Maitland. Ritchie and Redpath are big blows for Scotland.

I was impressed with Botham for Wales when he came on. How many back rowers do they have injured? Lydiate, Navidi, Jenkins, Mcleod, Moriarty. More? Either way that's impressive strength in depth.

whatahitson wrote:I was impressed with Botham for Wales when he came on. How many back rowers do they have injured? Lydiate, Navidi, Jenkins, Mcleod, Moriarty. More? Either way that's impressive strength in depth.

Lots of 7’s, but not enough 8’s. Bristol fans are of the opinion Dan Thomas should be playing for Wales. Thomas Young is very good too.

Let's be honest had the POM incident not happened last week would there have been a red card this week?

I think not. Ref cracked under the pressure.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is the England Italy thread still blocked yet you have time to post here?

Yeah, fair play. The thread was going really well at the end too. If only it had been left open.

I’ll run my posting times by you, in future.

RDW is on the case.

TightHEAD wrote:Let's be honest had the POM incident not happened last week would there have been a red card this week?

I think not. Ref cracked under the pressure.

He took a run up, dived of his feet, had his arm pointing behind him so he couldn't even attempt to wrap and made direct contact with the head. Clear red. It can be a shame when dumb, rather than malicious, but still dangerous bits of play like that affects a game so heavily but it's the players fault at the end of the day.

I don't want to open a can of worms but the arguments in Fagerson's favour (i.e. no malicious intent, not as bad as others that got the same penalty, etc) are quite similar to the Warburton tackle against France in the 2011 RWC. It was undoubtedly a shame that an accidental bit of dangerous play affected a semi-final so much but Warbs picked Clerc up, lifted his legs past the horizontal and dropped him on his head/neck. Clear red.

Similar to the Fagerson incident. I understand frustrations when it isn't only obvious malicious and dangerous play getting reds as it once was but if rugby wants to deal with its massive head injury problem then these changes need to come. Using the Warburton red as an example again, it could seem jarring when the rules were first clamped down on but 10 years later and it is very rare indeed to see spear tackles, which is definitely good for the game long term.

king_carlos wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Let's be honest had the POM incident not happened last week would there have been a red card this week?

I think not. Ref cracked under the pressure.

He took a run up, dived of his feet, had his arm pointing behind him so he couldn't even attempt to wrap and made direct contact with the head. Clear red. It can be a shame when dumb, rather than malicious, but still dangerous bits of play like that affects a game so heavily but it's the players fault at the end of the day.

I don't want to open a can of worms but the arguments in Fagerson's favour (i.e. no malicious intent, not as bad as others that got the same penalty, etc) are quite similar to the Warburton tackle against France in the 2011 RWC. It was undoubtedly a shame that an accidental bit of dangerous play affected a semi-final so much but Warbs picked Clerc up, lifted his legs past the horizontal and dropped him on his head/neck. Clear red.

Similar to the Fagerson incident. I understand frustrations when it isn't only obvious malicious and dangerous play getting reds as it once was but if rugby wants to deal with its massive head injury problem then these changes need to come. Using the Warburton red as an example again, it could seem jarring when the rules were first clamped down on but 10 years later and it is very rare indeed to see spear tackles, which is definitely good for the game long term.

This is a great post for me. The right arm is key. I would say it’s a yellow if he charges in, makes contact with the head but his right arm was trying to clear as well as the shoulder. The only difference between this and the POM card, is the length of ban should be shorter.

I really don’t get why people are kicking off about cards like these. A lot of pressure over CTE cases and yet when a clear shot on the head happens, people question it?

I’ve said to a few rugby player mates who have questioned it, what would they do in Wyn Jones’ position and they were on the end of that. They wouldn’t be happy with the hit, yet think this is an unjust red. But the biggest thing is, why risk a clear out like that, when you’ve seen a red just six days previously.

king_carlos wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Let's be honest had the POM incident not happened last week would there have been a red card this week?

I think not. Ref cracked under the pressure.

He took a run up, dived of his feet, had his arm pointing behind him so he couldn't even attempt to wrap and made direct contact with the head. Clear red. It can be a shame when dumb, rather than malicious, but still dangerous bits of play like that affects a game so heavily but it's the players fault at the end of the day.

I don't want to open a can of worms but the arguments in Fagerson's favour (i.e. no malicious intent, not as bad as others that got the same penalty, etc) are quite similar to the Warburton tackle against France in the 2011 RWC. It was undoubtedly a shame that an accidental bit of dangerous play affected a semi-final so much but Warbs picked Clerc up, lifted his legs past the horizontal and dropped him on his head/neck. Clear red.

Similar to the Fagerson incident. I understand frustrations when it isn't only obvious malicious and dangerous play getting reds as it once was but if rugby wants to deal with its massive head injury problem then these changes need to come. Using the Warburton red as an example again, it could seem jarring when the rules were first clamped down on but 10 years later and it is very rare indeed to see spear tackles, which is definitely good for the game long term.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. There is one significant difference between the Warburton example though and today's red card, and that's the fact that the newer, harsher interpretation of the laws was first enforced in the semi-final of a World Cup when similar and more egregious offences earlier in the competition were awarded yellow cards. In Fagerson's case he (and everybody else) had the stark reminder of the new interpretations only last week in the form of O'Mahony's red card. Admittedly O'Mahony's actions were more wreckless and dangerous than Fagerson's but the message really should have been received. If O'Mahony had received a yellow last week and Fagerson a red today then I would say it was a perfect mirror of the Warburton incident of 2011.

Just caught up with the highlights there and Watkin possibly won the game for Wales with that tap tackle, VDM was about to bypass LRZ and only Tipuric would have been able to stop Scotland from there.

The red is really harsh on Fagerson and hard for Scotland to take, but you have to take a step back and realise that anything that can prevent these head contacts happening again is more important in the long run. You'd hope with two high profile reds in the first 2 weeks that players will be more careful at the breakdown over the rest of the tournament.

Having said that, I've seen some calls for the crocodile roll technique to be banned in light of Jack Willis's injury today. That's a much 'softer' kind of clearout, so I don't really know how we can solve all these breakdown issues.

theslosty wrote:Just caught up with the highlights there and Watkin possibly won the game for Wales with that tap tackle, VDM was about to bypass LRZ and only Tipuric would have been able to stop Scotland from there.

The red is really harsh on Fagerson and hard for Scotland to take, but you have to take a step back and realise that anything that can prevent these head contacts happening again is more important in the long run. You'd hope with two high profile reds in the first 2 weeks that players will be more careful at the breakdown over the rest of the tournament.

Having said that, I've seen some calls for the crocodile roll technique to be banned in light of Jack Willis's injury today. That's a much 'softer' kind of clearout, so I don't really know how we can solve all these breakdown issues.

Yes he looked a cert to score. It was that close.

Thought Wales were a bit lucky again that their opponents got a man sent off but I would say they have been very clinical in taking their opportunities. Pivacs attacking system looks to be going well so far.

Just watched the game. First of all it's good to see there's so little between these sides just now - I can see some epic battles over the next few years.

It was such a strange game, with both teams having their periods of ascendency. It was the kind of game where Wales were worthy of their win, a draw would probably have been accepted by both teams, and if Scotland had scored at the end  it wouldn't have been an injustice by any means. From a Scotland PoV that was a game we had well under control and it's frustrating we let it slip. Fine, fine margins decided that game.

On the red, I think it was a fair call albeit the lower end of the spectrum. I think the ref summed it up well when he said Fagerson had clear sight of the situation he was throwing himself into. You can't charge head first into a ruck with no control, and it can be very dangerous. Yes it happens a lot - particularly from lazy front row - but it's right to be stamped out. I'd be annoyed if he was given the same length of ban as PoM though as it was much less serious an offence.

Wales' defence won the game ultimately, as well as taking their chances. Scotland's foundation of low penalties and low errors of last week unfortunately failed to be replicated this week. The sequence of penalties leading to Wales' first try was particularly maddening.

Finally - with all the chat of rugby being boring it was great to see back 3 players lighting up the match. We're yet to see LRZ tested on the rest of his game but he's absolutely electric in attack, with a wonderful 2nd try. Scotland's entire beck 3 played well, but I thought Hogg was outstanding yet again. For me he's the clear #1 choice Lions fullback right now - solid in the back field and absolutely world class in attack and his kicking. An outstanding game.

Commiserations to Scotland, they really played their part in such an exciting game. Ebbs and flows, changes of momentum. Hogg and DVDM were incredible, they both carried such menace throughout. Russell looked in great control at 10, his maturity is a delight to see.

The red card was reckless, had it been a yellow, I could have understood that, but to give the ref the option of red was a real let down from Fagerson. Whilst I agree Scotland had the better of things up until then, the score was 17-15 at the time of the red card. I don’t subscribe to the idea that with 15 men on the pitch that it was plain sailing for the win.

For Wales, it was great to see a huge improvement in the lineout, I thought Beard looked an international lock. Wyn Jones again impressed me with a good 80 minute performance, and Halaholo showed a bit of class on his debut.

LRZ showed what he can do with a bit of space, what composure to control that chip at full pelt!

So we go into the break 2 from 2, I’m delighted with the character shown in the first 2 games. The desire and work rate is back to the levels we associate will Welsh teams of the recent past.

On Fagerson - the ref could have seen enough mitigation for it to be a yellow but do what he did and the red card is always in play

My thoughts on Fagerson. At first glance it does feel harsh, but it was right in front of the ref and the only reason he did not make 'full contact' with AWJ's head is that it moves up at the last moment after Fagerson is committed.

There is a feeling that there has to be blood before a red card is justified. I would argue that there would have been had it not been for that last second change of position.

Small moments. A few more seconds of control on the Wales line right before this incident, a little more sense from Fagerson and Scotland would have won.

Only other thing I wanted to say was LRZ was good but I do wonder if Jiffy had to change his underwear after commentating about him.

lostinwales wrote:My thoughts on Fagerson. At first glance it does feel harsh, but it was right in front of the ref and the only reason he did not make 'full contact' with AWJ's head is that it moves up at the last moment after Fagerson is committed.

There is a feeling that there has to be blood before a red card is justified. I would argue that there would have been had it not been for that last second change of position.

Small moments. A few more seconds of control on the Wales line right before this incident, a little more sense from Fagerson and Scotland would have won.

Only other thing I wanted to say was LRZ was good but I do wonder if Jiffy had to change his underwear after commentating about him.

It was the other Wyn Jones!

chris_501 wrote:Commiserations to Scotland, they really played their part in such an exciting game. Ebbs and flows, changes of momentum. Hogg and DVDM were incredible, they both carried such menace throughout. Russell looked in great control at 10, his maturity is a delight to see.

The red card was reckless, had it been a yellow, I could have understood that, but to give the ref the option of red was a real let down from Fagerson. Whilst I agree Scotland had the better of things up until then, the score was 17-15 at the time of the red card. I don’t subscribe to the idea that with 15 men on the pitch that it was plain sailing for the win.

For Wales, it was great to see a huge improvement in the lineout, I thought Beard looked an international lock. Wyn Jones again impressed me with a good 80 minute performance, and Halaholo showed a bit of class on his debut.

LRZ showed what he can do with a bit of space, what composure to control that chip at full pelt!

So we go into the break 2 from 2, I’m delighted with the character shown in the first 2 games. The desire and work rate is back to the levels we associate will Welsh teams of the recent past.

Good point about the scoreline.  I was one of the ones suggesting a Scotland win if they’d kept all 15 on the field.  But before the red it was 17-15, and we’d missed a conversation so could/should have been 17-17 on 54 minutes.  So not exactly being over-run. Well, not on the scoreboard! But the game definitely had periods off ascendency for both teams.  I agree with others that had Scotland scored that disallowed try then it might have been game over regardless of the red.  Would have been something like 24-3 early on.  A long way back from there. But the game swung back the other way far before the red. I think the most impressive thing was, like with the Ireland game last week, what the 14-men teams managed to conjure up against 15-men. Not sure if that says more about Scotland/Ireland being brilliant when a man down or Wales being poor with a 1 man advantage. Probably a bit of both.

Firstly, well done Wales - a huge number of injuries but enough experience and class to see the game out.

On Scotland, I have rarely been as disappointed after a defeat. This is up there with Australia 2015 for me. We had an opportunity last night to put ourselves in a dominant position...and we totally blew it. No international team should be losing from 17-3 up and cruising.

As others have mentioned our discipline cost us - the series of penalties which gave Wales field position to score before half-time, and a foothold in the game, were inexcusable; the crossing for the try was braindead and Fagerson can have zero complaints i'm afraid. I find it odd that Carley and his team mentioned mitigation, that is part of the high tackle framework, unless that also now covers entry to rucks? Either way, he came in recklessly from distance and made contact to the head - I don't see how he had any other option.

We were never going to play as well as last week, but I find our ability to find new ways to shoot ourselves in the foot just so, so, so depressing. Groundhog day. Again.