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Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)


Last edited by TightHEAD on Thu 25 Feb 2021, 12:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 26 Feb 2021, 8:38 am

Deliberately went flanker not back row! Barbeary would be an obvious one for me if he wasnt injured. Martin at flanker does appear to be the Ted Hill style. Not sure if its because he's playing in a team performing well (thought they were really going to strugggle this year, some great signings) but I'm reasonably happy with the choice of him over Hill at present.

The temptation for me would have been calling up a different position....again would have been thinking another Leicester youngster at full back.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 26 Feb 2021, 9:19 am

Barbeary is crocked. If you want someone in that mould Dombrandt would appear to be the obvious choice, although Eddie has had a good look at him in the past and not used him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 26 Feb 2021, 9:49 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Whowould you have if you were picking a flanker to come into the squad Pooly? I'm at the level that there are a few people around who would be ok cover but no one crying out for selection. From that Martin has age on his side. Ludlam? Ludlow maybe?

Better backrow options? Take your pic pal.

Dombrandt, Hill, Ludlam, Ludlow, Curry etc. If looking at a youngster, I'd be tempted with the lad at Wasps, Barbury? A very bizarre selection, I really don't see the idea behind it.

I suspect that Eddie knew Lawes had a knock and wanted a lock/6 option. Ted Hill's form has dropped off a little bit this season from the rampaging nutter of last season. Plus Eddie likes a big work rate in defence. The other more obvious backrow options can't step into the row or offer the same lineout skills which I presume were further up Eddie's lists of requirements than those skills normally associated with free flowing rugby.

No 7&1/2 sshhhh Tigers are becoming very reliant on Steward at the back and we aren't good enough to be missing any more players at the minute. His time will come and he's still developing very nicely.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:08 am

hugehandoff wrote:Winning in Wales is hard enough for England and based on recent performances I cannot see anything other than another home win. The return of key men in Jonathan Davies, Liam Williams and Josh Adams with Biggar pulling the strings and a very good back row smashing England backwards looks a tough one for us to overcome. A key factor could be the absence of the crowd as the noise levels are normally deafening against England.

AWJ match up with Itoje could be crucial. No doubt Wales will try to wind up England to get penalties and yellow cards and it will be interesting to see if England bite? I am very glad this match is on and I just hope that both sides treat us to a decent game as this lockdown is driving me nuts! Bring on some entertainment please with 15 players on both sides at the end of the match.

Have England needed much winding up to concede penalties in this year's tournament?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:11 am

It's the reaction and reversals that wales have looked for in recent years. As above if England concede pens jones is likely to be quiet. If england are on top in scrums etc expect grabbing and jostling.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:13 am

That's one thing that you'd think would be an easy fix for England, the conceding of unnecessary penalties. It makes things much easier for the opposition if you're doing that all game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:19 am

Yup. Unforced errors in tennis really. The question is from the Scotland game at least is were they unforced. Itoje and Curry, though a little unfortunate in some cases, felt they had to playing that close to the line as Scotland were on top and some of the pack, particularly the back row which will line up tomorrow were getting done by their opponents.

But yes painting the pics to the ref will be key.

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Post by No9 Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56204421

"At times he [Jones] has targeted players in our team," said Eddie Jones.

"We've spoken about him and we understand what he'll be trying to do."

Wales are unbeaten with their narrow wins against Ireland and Scotland marked by red cards for respective forwards Peter O'Mahony and Zander Fagerson.

That leaves Wayne Pivac's side seeking a Triple Crown against England, whose coach urged his players to remain calm in the face of a team led by 35-year-old British and Irish Lion Jones.

"It's just about making sure we maintain our composure and our control," said Jones."

Expect this to come out and Wales to start scuffles the 2nd there is a strong turnover or a good English scrum. Its been a good tactic the last few years.


Laugh Sinckler had AWJ around the neck and was lifting, and Marler grabbed him by the b@lls ... But its AWJ who is targeting the English players..

Also, in that game Tuilagi grabs Liam Williams by the throat...

But Uncle Eddie still says expect Wales to start scuffles... Unbelievable.. Erm

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:30 am

Yup. He's completely correct too.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:01 am

No9 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56204421

"At times he [Jones] has targeted players in our team," said Eddie Jones.

"We've spoken about him and we understand what he'll be trying to do."

Wales are unbeaten with their narrow wins against Ireland and Scotland marked by red cards for respective forwards Peter O'Mahony and Zander Fagerson.

That leaves Wayne Pivac's side seeking a Triple Crown against England, whose coach urged his players to remain calm in the face of a team led by 35-year-old British and Irish Lion Jones.

"It's just about making sure we maintain our composure and our control," said Jones."

Expect this to come out and Wales to start scuffles the 2nd there is a strong turnover or a good English scrum. Its been a good tactic the last few years.


Laugh  Sinckler had AWJ around the neck and was lifting, and Marler grabbed him by the b@lls ... But its AWJ who is targeting the English players..

Also, in that game Tuilagi grabs Liam Williams by the throat...

But Uncle Eddie still says expect Wales to start scuffles... Unbelievable.. Erm

As our game is off I am getting excited about this intriguing game

Some bloody interesting 1 on 1s

Wayne v Eddie. Mr Jones is under pressure and AWJ must be beaming as all Eddie has done is spotlight the previous indiscretions by England players on the Welsh captain. The jury is still out on Pivac, so he needs to put this down as a marker, win this Wayner and the noose slackens (for now!)
Sanjay v Daly. Ex Saracens pals, I think both looked good the last game but I can see Biggar punting high for Sanjay and LRZ to be all over the Eng FB
LRZ v May the whizz. Phew!, Club mates and rivals, May arguably the world's best winger v the young gun who wants to take his title. The Lions cert v the bolter.
Foxy v Faz. Clever move by Pivac to move a genuine 6' 1' 16st 6lbs world class centre to be all over the Eng captain, Farrell at 6' 2" 15st 2lbs needs to prove the doubter wrong and he'll be up for it
Youngs v Hardy. I am a big Youngs fan and never understand his knockers, don't know much about the young Welsh dude but expect him to be a billy whizz
Tipuric v Curry. This could decide the Lions OSF spot, Tips had a superb WC S-F game against SA where Curry was mangled in the final, but there is no doubting his world class play. Too close to call
Toby v Billy. Cousins-In-Arms, Warring Blood-Brothers. It's safe to say neither is on top-form but another possible Lions decider

Who will win......crikey. Hard to predict a final score but I'm going for Wales by 4 pts

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:07 am

I'm not confident at all of this one but this is usually when Eddie gets a win. It should be close.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:16 am

I'd say Faletau is closer to being on top form than Billy Vunipola is, but Vunipola's such an asset and focal point for England when he's on song that I really don't want to think about it.

I still haven't seen much of Kieran Hardy. I like the thinking behind having Gareth Davies on the bench, but it's quite a gamble having them this way round. If it comes off, great, but I have no doubt that Hardy will be targeted early on. It's a shame Tomos Williams isn't fit.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:22 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd say Faletau is closer to being on top form than Billy Vunipola is, but Vunipola's such an asset and focal point for England when he's on song that I really don't want to think about it.

I still haven't seen much of Kieran Hardy. I like the thinking behind having Gareth Davies on the bench, but it's quite a gamble having them this way round. If it comes off, great, but I have no doubt that Hardy will be targeted early on. It's a shame Tomos Williams isn't fit.

I agree
Unbelievable strength in depth, Tomos, Davies, Hardy, Webb all could do a job

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:23 am

No9 wrote:

Laugh  Sinckler had AWJ around the neck and was lifting, and Marler grabbed him by the b@lls ... But its AWJ who is targeting the English players..

Also, in that game Tuilagi grabs Liam Williams by the throat...

But Uncle Eddie still says expect Wales to start scuffles... Unbelievable.. Erm

I don't think oneupmanship from that match is going to work in either teams favour. Parkes was high on Tuilagi while was it Tipuric who drove his shoulder into Curry?

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Post by No9 Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:27 am

I think this will be a close game...

Our performances (as a whole team) so far have been woeful. But, and in the 6 Nations its a massive BUT.. we have won both games. And with the Triple Crown up for grabs, I think we may just pull this one off as well. But if we do, the last 10 mins is going to be a edge of seat thing, as there will only be a score in it, with either side poised to pinch it.

My only worry is that we don't let England take a 2 score lead and end up chasing the game as we've done so many times in the past. Because if we go into the last 20 mins, chasing a 2 score deficit, I cant see us doing it. I know we've done it in the past, but not sure we will with the way we've been playing recently.

I'm going for Wales to win by 2pts.... thumbsup ... and me to be clenching all the way for the last 10 mins Yikes

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:40 am

They can't have been woeful, or we wouldn't have won either game. No doubt the red cards helped, but to say we've been woeful isn't fair or accurate. That said, I hope England keep 15 men on the field, so we can have a fuller assessment of where Wales are under Pivac. I think we're still quite a way from where we need to be, but it's hard to know when we're playing against 14 men.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 26 Feb 2021, 12:41 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They can't have been woeful, or we wouldn't have won either game. No doubt the red cards helped, but to say we've been woeful isn't fair or accurate. That said, I hope England keep 15 men on the field, so we can have a fuller assessment of where Wales are under Pivac. I think we're still quite a way from where we need to be, but it's hard to know when we're playing against 14 men.

I think we have to be a little cautious assessing the performances of any of the teams in the current climate. Just got to hope that things get back to normal as soon as possible.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 26 Feb 2021, 12:43 pm

No9 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56204421

"At times he [Jones] has targeted players in our team," said Eddie Jones.

"We've spoken about him and we understand what he'll be trying to do."

Wales are unbeaten with their narrow wins against Ireland and Scotland marked by red cards for respective forwards Peter O'Mahony and Zander Fagerson.

That leaves Wayne Pivac's side seeking a Triple Crown against England, whose coach urged his players to remain calm in the face of a team led by 35-year-old British and Irish Lion Jones.

"It's just about making sure we maintain our composure and our control," said Jones."

Expect this to come out and Wales to start scuffles the 2nd there is a strong turnover or a good English scrum. Its been a good tactic the last few years.


Laugh  Sinckler had AWJ around the neck and was lifting, and Marler grabbed him by the b@lls ... But its AWJ who is targeting the English players..

Also, in that game Tuilagi grabs Liam Williams by the throat...

But Uncle Eddie still says expect Wales to start scuffles... Unbelievable.. Erm

Spot on No.9. Eddie fat gob is part of the English rugby mafia. They can change the laws at will and Uncle Eddie can get away with any and every jibe he wants to "it was 16 vs 13 mate..." - just imagine the uproar in WR if Gatland had ever said that. Nothing personal against England rugby but some of their figures in the spotlight are rather unpleasant characters.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 26 Feb 2021, 12:47 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd say Faletau is closer to being on top form than Billy Vunipola is, but Vunipola's such an asset and focal point for England when he's on song that I really don't want to think about it.

I still haven't seen much of Kieran Hardy. I like the thinking behind having Gareth Davies on the bench, but it's quite a gamble having them this way round. If it comes off, great, but I have no doubt that Hardy will be targeted early on. It's a shame Tomos Williams isn't fit.

I agree
Unbelievable strength in depth, Tomos, Davies, Hardy, Webb all could do a job  

Not any more. Some are old and off form, whilst others (Tomos) are injury prone - jury still out on him being a regular for Wales anyway, which is why it's annoying that Varney went to play for Italy. The guy has some great skill for a young player.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 26 Feb 2021, 12:50 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They can't have been woeful, or we wouldn't have won either game. No doubt the red cards helped, but to say we've been woeful isn't fair or accurate. That said, I hope England keep 15 men on the field, so we can have a fuller assessment of where Wales are under Pivac. I think we're still quite a way from where we need to be, but it's hard to know when we're playing against 14 men.

I think we have to be a little cautious assessing the performances of any of the teams in the current climate. Just got to hope that things get back to normal as soon as possible.

I don't think woeful is inaccurate at all, especially when you take into the account the entire tenure of Pivac. Admittedly things have got a little better, now that Pivac has improved his selection game.

Selections might be what is holding England back. They have an abundance of good players in the Premiership that are getting overlooked. That and the tactics might have grown just a little stale, especially with no dominant Saracens team. It's probably a much easier fix for England than it is for Wales though.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 26 Feb 2021, 1:21 pm

Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 26 Feb 2021, 1:37 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 26 Feb 2021, 2:04 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

I doubt we'll see any free flowing end to end rugby but at the same time England Vs Wales had tended towards the niggly in recent times so I'd expect plenty of confrontation. Just look at the captains AWJ a prime wind up merchant and man who loves voicing his opinion to the refs, a hero in his own country and seen as annoying by those from elsewhere. Farrell the angry man who dislikes taking a backward step and who's physicality can be questionable.

I'm not expecting a pretty game but I am expecting an enthralling one.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Feb 2021, 2:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They can't have been woeful, or we wouldn't have won either game. No doubt the red cards helped, but to say we've been woeful isn't fair or accurate. That said, I hope England keep 15 men on the field, so we can have a fuller assessment of where Wales are under Pivac. I think we're still quite a way from where we need to be, but it's hard to know when we're playing against 14 men.

I think we have to be a little cautious assessing the performances of any of the teams in the current climate. Just got to hope that things get back to normal as soon as possible.

I don't think woeful is inaccurate at all, especially when you take into the account the entire tenure of Pivac. Admittedly things have got a little better, now that Pivac has improved his selection game.

I don't think No 9 was talking about Pivac's tenure as a whole - I certainly wasn't. I still say woeful performances wouldn't have seen us beat either 14-man Ireland or 14-man Scotland.

I think we've improved since last season, and since the autumn, but I want it to be 15 v 15 on Saturday so we can really judge.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 26 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

The irony in what you just wrote, Sam, is I would rather follow AWJ as captain, rather than spending half my game telling Farrell to shut up, calm down, or get out.  I can deal with a leader who gets under the skin of the opposition, Martin Johnson did the same though was more physical, but not someone I am not sure I can rely on when things start to go the wrong way.  

I am just hoping England play a style which is not a cure for insomnia.

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Post by whatahitson Fri 26 Feb 2021, 5:03 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It will be interested to see how Farrell approaches the ref in this game. Nigel Owens was pretty vocal on how Farrell shouldn't have been able to put forward his view quite as strongly this 6 nations. AWJ has obviously contributed massively in the past few years with his whines (Sinckler sticks in mind).

Will AWJ miss his boyfriend?

What do you mean by this?

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Post by whatahitson Fri 26 Feb 2021, 5:13 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:

While Mike Brown says he believes he lost his place for talking back to Jones, and Danny Care might have been the same, Jones has shown far more loyalty to players than I expected. Rather than giving out two or three caps to see how a new guy goes, he has preferred to let an incumbent play through poor form, and has ended up flat out ignoring a whole host of players.

That's because they're not playing anywhere as badly as the media like to pretend they are. 2 trophies from 2. How much do England players earn for an appearance? You don't give that away cheaply it will damage the shirt.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 26 Feb 2021, 5:43 pm

doctor_grey wrote:The irony in what you just wrote, Sam, is I would rather follow AWJ as captain, rather than spending half my game telling Farrell to shut up, calm down, or get out.  I can deal with a leader who gets under the skin of the opposition, Martin Johnson did the same though was more physical, but not someone I am not sure I can rely on when things start to go the wrong way.  

I am just hoping England play a style which is not a cure for insomnia.

Yes but the player you value in your team most is normally the one most disliked by others. Choosing between the two as a captain 9/10 would prefer to be captained by AWJ. He is playing against my team which is why I find his antics annoying when he's playing for the Lions quite the reverse.

Farrell is probably the exception to the rule as he's disliked by about 50% of England fans as well as the opposition.

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Post by BamBam Fri 26 Feb 2021, 5:45 pm

If AWJ was in my team I’d be wondering how the hell we aren’t producing any better locks

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 26 Feb 2021, 5:57 pm

whatahitson wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:

While Mike Brown says he believes he lost his place for talking back to Jones, and Danny Care might have been the same, Jones has shown far more loyalty to players than I expected. Rather than giving out two or three caps to see how a new guy goes, he has preferred to let an incumbent play through poor form, and has ended up flat out ignoring a whole host of players.

That's because they're not playing anywhere as badly as the media like to pretend they are. 2 trophies from 2. How much do England players earn for an appearance? You don't give that away cheaply it will damage the shirt.
Mate, apologies but I have to disagree on a few things.  It is not mainly the media who think England are not playing a style conducive for wins and do not seem to be playing overly well in general.  This includes playing people clearly not in shape.  From what I have seen and heard a lot of people see England as failing the eye test.   They clearly played better in the last Six Nations, disjointed by Covid as it was.  

And to be clear, I am not equating throwing it around Barbarian style to good Rugby.  Nor does it have to be the NZ frequent offloading style either.  I do see players not in shape which, as I have said before, shows disrespect to the jersey, the supporters, and the team.  As you said, the jersey should not be given cheaply.  Players not in shape is exactly that and the Six Nations is not the place to play oneself into shape.  I also see players not contributing where other players could show their wares.  I believe it is this combination of things which I believe a lot of supporters as well as the media are not happy with.

Hopefully I am wrong this weekend and England can get a good solid win.  But I have little reason for confidence the way they seem to be playing now.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 26 Feb 2021, 6:03 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

I doubt we'll see any free flowing end to end rugby but at the same time England Vs Wales had tended towards the niggly in recent times so I'd expect plenty of confrontation. Just look at the captains AWJ a prime wind up merchant and man who loves voicing his opinion to the refs, a hero in his own country and seen as annoying by those from elsewhere. Farrell the angry man who dislikes taking a backward step and who's physicality can be questionable.

I'm not expecting a pretty game but I am expecting an enthralling one.

Firstly
All hail the North God....gotta give credit to George a centurion at such a young age says everything
I'm not sure we (Scotland) see AWJ as a WUM, Scotland see him as a steadfast leader, of course he looks for weaknesses he's articulate in that way, he got to Sinks because he knew he had...has a short fuse when put under pressure, the same with Marler (he didn't scream blue-murder he just looked at the ref with a "come on ref he can't do that") but what we don't see is a back-slapping, hollering, hoo-ahh...ing, screaming into the opponent's face every time his teammates wins a scrum, a turnover etc etc like Itoje and I can't recall him ever putting in a shoulder, late-tackle, no-arms like Farrell. I think is Eddie worried about England's 6Ns disciplinary record and AWJ is just the captain to exploit that

Reference the game
Winning even when playing poorly, gives anyone a bit of assurance and confidence, hence there is a better feel coming from the Welsh camp the last fortnight and that's a key factor going into the game. Wales have got to build that inner confidence and proclaim let's look at the spine "player v player"

FB - Sanjay v Daly
FH - Biggar v Ford
SH - Hardy - Youngs
02 - Owens v George
04 - Beard v Itoje
05 - Jones v Hill
08 - Faletau v Vunipola
Wales have to look at that with an air of "we can match their spine" confidence and also say

You've got Curry we've got Tips, got May we've got LRZ, got Watson we've got Adams the WC leading try scoring player back,

I don't think one side looks stronger than the other on paper  

England under Eddie will always resort to type, kick, defence and strangling the life out of the opponents, if they get it right then it's going to be a long day at the office for Wales, if they cannae dominate then it could all go horribly wrong for Eddies Eagles with that Welsh backline of Sanjay/LRZ/Adams.

Weather is looking to be sunny, no breeze and warm.....it could come down to the ref and the bench


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Post by doctor_grey Fri 26 Feb 2021, 6:15 pm

If Wales match England in the pack, which could be very likely considering (from the England pov), George is playing below his usual level and Billy is playing at a competent Championship level (level below the Premiership).  The other question is how Farrell is involved in attack (not simply kicking away possession).  If uninvolved then it becomes critical for Ford to link with Slade to get May and Watson involved.  With the wings plus Farrell semi- or uninvolved, then England will be attacking with 10-12 players, not usually a strategy for success.  And I think it's fair to think Wales will be using the entire back line aggressively.


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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 26 Feb 2021, 6:17 pm

With lawes ruled out for the rest of the 6ns, could this be a chance for Sam Simmonds, or the likes of Dombrandt to come in?

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 26 Feb 2021, 6:18 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:With lawes ruled out for the rest of the 6ns, could this be a chance for Sam Simmonds, or the likes of Dombrandt to come in?
No. Those two guys are in shape.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 26 Feb 2021, 6:23 pm

BamBam wrote:If Farrell was in my team I’d be wondering how the hell

True story


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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 26 Feb 2021, 6:42 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

I doubt we'll see any free flowing end to end rugby but at the same time England Vs Wales had tended towards the niggly in recent times so I'd expect plenty of confrontation. Just look at the captains AWJ a prime wind up merchant and man who loves voicing his opinion to the refs, a hero in his own country and seen as annoying by those from elsewhere. Farrell the angry man who dislikes taking a backward step and who's physicality can be questionable.

I'm not expecting a pretty game but I am expecting an enthralling one.

Firstly
All hail the North God....gotta give credit to George a centurion at such a young age says everything
I'm not sure we (Scotland) see AWJ as a WUM, Scotland see him as a steadfast leader, of course he looks for weaknesses he's a articulate in that way, he got to Sinks because he knew he had...has a short fuse when put under pressure, the same with Marler (he didn't scream blue-murder he just looked at the ref with a "come on ref he can't do that") but what we don't see is a back-slapping, hollering, hoo-ahh...ing, screaming into the opponent's face every time his teammates wins a scrum, a turnover etc etc like Itoje and I can't recall him ever putting in a shoulder, late-tackle, no-arms like Farrell. I think is Eddie worried about England's 6Ns disciplinary record and AWJ is just the captain to exploit that.

Oh AWJ is 100% the type of player that celebrates every little win in front of the opposition. He practically commentates the game on the pitch. You make it sound like AWJ was stood there and Marler just walked up and gave him a tweak. AWJ was fairly central in commotion that led to confrontation, as he always is. AWJ is just far too clever to do anything that would get him into trouble.

AWJ is exactly the type of player that winds up the opposition and then runs to the ref. England's discipline is poor and that isn't a new thing. Farrell is a poor captain in terms of leading in front of the officials, he rarely ever communicates well with the officials. AWJ is far better at that. Makes sense that Eddie is trying to put doubt in the officials mind. Doubt it will work mind, if England had a charismatic captain might be a different story then you could pair off Jones tendency to complain at the referee as desperation. As it stands if I was a betting man I'd have at least one English player to get a card at some point during the game.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 26 Feb 2021, 7:04 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

I doubt we'll see any free flowing end to end rugby but at the same time England Vs Wales had tended towards the niggly in recent times so I'd expect plenty of confrontation. Just look at the captains AWJ a prime wind up merchant and man who loves voicing his opinion to the refs, a hero in his own country and seen as annoying by those from elsewhere. Farrell the angry man who dislikes taking a backward step and who's physicality can be questionable.

I'm not expecting a pretty game but I am expecting an enthralling one.

Firstly
All hail the North God....gotta give credit to George a centurion at such a young age says everything
I'm not sure we (Scotland) see AWJ as a WUM, Scotland see him as a steadfast leader, of course he looks for weaknesses he's a articulate in that way, he got to Sinks because he knew he had...has a short fuse when put under pressure, the same with Marler (he didn't scream blue-murder he just looked at the ref with a "come on ref he can't do that") but what we don't see is a back-slapping, hollering, hoo-ahh...ing, screaming into the opponent's face every time his teammates wins a scrum, a turnover etc etc like Itoje and I can't recall him ever putting in a shoulder, late-tackle, no-arms like Farrell. I think is Eddie worried about England's 6Ns disciplinary record and AWJ is just the captain to exploit that.

Oh AWJ is 100% the type of player that celebrates every little win in front of the opposition. He practically commentates the game on the pitch. You make it sound like AWJ was stood there and Marler just walked up and gave him a tweak. AWJ was fairly central in commotion that led to confrontation, as he always is. AWJ is just far too clever to do anything that would get him into trouble.

AWJ is exactly the type of player that winds up the opposition and then runs to the ref. England's discipline is poor and that isn't a new thing. Farrell is a poor captain in terms of leading in front of the officials, he rarely ever communicates well with the officials. AWJ is far better at that. Makes sense that Eddie is trying to put doubt in the officials mind. Doubt it will work mind, if England had a charismatic captain might be a different story then you could pair off Jones tendency to complain at the referee as desperation. As it stands if I was a betting man I'd have at least one English player to get a card at some point during the game.

Sam my man, hope you are well.
AWJ did nothing wrong with Marler but I'm more than happy to be shown the error of my call. The guy got off with it, full stop
The captain has the right to challenge a ref's call, that's not running to the ref


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Post by TightHEAD Fri 26 Feb 2021, 7:27 pm

England are so terrible it would be so funny to beat Wales with Young's, Farrell and BillyV all scoring tries.
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 26 Feb 2021, 8:59 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

I doubt we'll see any free flowing end to end rugby but at the same time England Vs Wales had tended towards the niggly in recent times so I'd expect plenty of confrontation. Just look at the captains AWJ a prime wind up merchant and man who loves voicing his opinion to the refs, a hero in his own country and seen as annoying by those from elsewhere. Farrell the angry man who dislikes taking a backward step and who's physicality can be questionable.

I'm not expecting a pretty game but I am expecting an enthralling one.

Firstly
All hail the North God....gotta give credit to George a centurion at such a young age says everything
I'm not sure we (Scotland) see AWJ as a WUM, Scotland see him as a steadfast leader, of course he looks for weaknesses he's a articulate in that way, he got to Sinks because he knew he had...has a short fuse when put under pressure, the same with Marler (he didn't scream blue-murder he just looked at the ref with a "come on ref he can't do that") but what we don't see is a back-slapping, hollering, hoo-ahh...ing, screaming into the opponent's face every time his teammates wins a scrum, a turnover etc etc like Itoje and I can't recall him ever putting in a shoulder, late-tackle, no-arms like Farrell. I think is Eddie worried about England's 6Ns disciplinary record and AWJ is just the captain to exploit that.

Oh AWJ is 100% the type of player that celebrates every little win in front of the opposition. He practically commentates the game on the pitch. You make it sound like AWJ was stood there and Marler just walked up and gave him a tweak. AWJ was fairly central in commotion that led to confrontation, as he always is. AWJ is just far too clever to do anything that would get him into trouble.

AWJ is exactly the type of player that winds up the opposition and then runs to the ref. England's discipline is poor and that isn't a new thing. Farrell is a poor captain in terms of leading in front of the officials, he rarely ever communicates well with the officials. AWJ is far better at that. Makes sense that Eddie is trying to put doubt in the officials mind. Doubt it will work mind, if England had a charismatic captain might be a different story then you could pair off Jones tendency to complain at the referee as desperation. As it stands if I was a betting man I'd have at least one English player to get a card at some point during the game.

Sam my man, hope you are well.
AWJ did nothing wrong with Marler but I'm more than happy to be shown the error of my call. The guy got off with it, full stop
The captain has the right to challenge a ref's call, that's not running to the ref
Here's my problem with all this: Who actually cares what a player on the other team says? I've been called a whole slew of things (a few were not true), and it doesn't do a darn thing. It's just part of the game, and some guys get off on it. A professional should tune it all out. At the professional level, the captain should mention to the ref in a professional manner (which leaves Farrell out of it) and hope something is done. If not, still just get on with it.

At regular club level for us, if they provoke us, we wait until the match is over, and take their women. Sorted.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:20 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Even if we're supposedly better on paper I get the jitters whenever we play Wales. Last year we were winning handily then shut off and Wales almost came back and finished us off.

I've a feeling that this year will be no different in that it'll be close and likely to be down to the last play. Wales LOVE taking it to England and I am fully expecting a to and fro scoreline. Fascinating.

Fascinating yes, just, probably, 'one for the purists'

I doubt we'll see any free flowing end to end rugby but at the same time England Vs Wales had tended towards the niggly in recent times so I'd expect plenty of confrontation. Just look at the captains AWJ a prime wind up merchant and man who loves voicing his opinion to the refs, a hero in his own country and seen as annoying by those from elsewhere. Farrell the angry man who dislikes taking a backward step and who's physicality can be questionable.

I'm not expecting a pretty game but I am expecting an enthralling one.

Firstly
All hail the North God....gotta give credit to George a centurion at such a young age says everything
I'm not sure we (Scotland) see AWJ as a WUM, Scotland see him as a steadfast leader, of course he looks for weaknesses he's a articulate in that way, he got to Sinks because he knew he had...has a short fuse when put under pressure, the same with Marler (he didn't scream blue-murder he just looked at the ref with a "come on ref he can't do that") but what we don't see is a back-slapping, hollering, hoo-ahh...ing, screaming into the opponent's face every time his teammates wins a scrum, a turnover etc etc like Itoje and I can't recall him ever putting in a shoulder, late-tackle, no-arms like Farrell. I think is Eddie worried about England's 6Ns disciplinary record and AWJ is just the captain to exploit that.

Oh AWJ is 100% the type of player that celebrates every little win in front of the opposition. He practically commentates the game on the pitch. You make it sound like AWJ was stood there and Marler just walked up and gave him a tweak. AWJ was fairly central in commotion that led to confrontation, as he always is. AWJ is just far too clever to do anything that would get him into trouble.

AWJ is exactly the type of player that winds up the opposition and then runs to the ref. England's discipline is poor and that isn't a new thing. Farrell is a poor captain in terms of leading in front of the officials, he rarely ever communicates well with the officials. AWJ is far better at that. Makes sense that Eddie is trying to put doubt in the officials mind. Doubt it will work mind, if England had a charismatic captain might be a different story then you could pair off Jones tendency to complain at the referee as desperation. As it stands if I was a betting man I'd have at least one English player to get a card at some point during the game.

Sam my man, hope you are well.
AWJ did nothing wrong with Marler but I'm more than happy to be shown the error of my call. The guy got off with it, full stop
The captain has the right to challenge a ref's call, that's not running to the ref

That's my point AWJ stayed on the side of legality despite being confrontational and laying his hands on the opposition. It's a very tight line to tread and AWJ is very good at it. This isn't the Johnno era you can't go round lamping people so you have to be smarter and AWJ has become the example of how to be confrontational and stay on the right side of it.

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Post by nlpnlp Fri 26 Feb 2021, 10:22 pm

I suspect the emotion and tension of a test match is slightly higher than that at your club level.  Players are hyped up to the max.  In the 'heat of the moment' have you never done something in a game, which with 20 cameras focusing on you would be a penalty or card offence?  Players at international level are so keen to 'beat' their oponent that they sometimes overstep the mark.  Martin Johnson was my idol growing up, but he would these days be a red card magnet.

I think Alun Wyn Jones is a fantastically talented player and to have the caps and career he has is incredible.  He also anoys the hell out of me when he plays against England.  Our players should see it as a compliment that he wastes time and effort trying to wind them up.  I am sure that Maro and co anoy the hell out of teams we play against with their whooping and hollering every time we win a scrum or penalty.

I just hope the referee gets a grip and stops players slapping the opposition whenever they give away a penalty or do a knock on.  Any ref who reversed a penalty because a player got in the face of and starting slapping an opponent who had just given away a penalty would win my rugby award of the season.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 26 Feb 2021, 11:27 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I suspect the emotion and tension of a test match is slightly higher than that at your club level.  Players are hyped up to the max.  In the 'heat of the moment' have you never done something in a game, which with 20 cameras focusing on you would be a penalty or card offence?  Players at international level are so keen to 'beat' their oponent that they sometimes overstep the mark.  Martin Johnson was my idol growing up, but he would these days be a red card magnet.

I think Alun Wyn Jones is a fantastically talented player and to have the caps and career he has is incredible.  He also anoys the hell out of me when he plays against England.  Our players should see it as a compliment that he wastes time and effort trying to wind them up.  I am sure that Maro and co anoy the hell out of teams we play against with their whooping and hollering every time we win a scrum or penalty.

I just hope the referee gets a grip and stops players slapping the opposition whenever they give away a penalty or do a knock on.  Any ref who reversed a penalty because a player got in the face of and starting slapping an opponent who had just given away a penalty would win my rugby award of the season.
I have never been payed £20k per match to represent my country.  Part of what goes along with that level compensation is being mature and professional and growing up and ignoring the children winding you up on the other side.

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Post by nlpnlp Sat 27 Feb 2021, 12:45 am

Apologies for stating the obvious, but I suspect the fact you have never been paid £20k to represent your country is because you are not an international class rugby player. If all that matters to you is how much you are being paid then you will never be a top class player. You display all the qualities of someone who thinks that money controls everything To be honest, I am sure you have never played rugby at much of a level if you have no understanding of emotion. Why do you think there were 5 red cards last weekend in the Gallagher - because the players are not as good as you or because they are much better and play wiith emotion on the edge?

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 27 Feb 2021, 2:50 am

Commentator said Jack Yeandle, who was red-carded last night, had never received a card of either colour before.

One risk with having a large Saracens representation is that none of those players have directly experienced this refereeing environment. As it is, even those squad members from teams in the Premiership have played club rugby only occasionally.

That puts a lot of onus on instilling the necessary tackle and ruck clear-out discipline at the England training camps, and I wonder how much we've done on that. The fact Yeandle can get a red card when he had a spotless record suggests it's harder to change old habits, or perhaps some players are still not aware that the techniques which have worked well for them before, now put them at risk.

England place a lot of value on players getting off the floor quickly, and back ready for action. When tiredness sets in, you start relying more on muscle memory to do that. If the players haven't trained themselves out of old behaviour, then we might get on the wrong side of the referee.

Wales have a couple of returning players who might also not be up to speed, so the risks aren't all on one side. Here's hoping we don't get any incidents.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 27 Feb 2021, 8:14 am

nlpnlp wrote:Apologies for stating the obvious, but I suspect the fact you have never been paid £20k to represent your country is because you are not an international class rugby player.  If all that matters to you is how much you are being paid then you will never be a top class player.  You display all the qualities of someone who thinks that money controls everything  To be honest, I am sure you have never played rugby at much of a level if you have no understanding of emotion.  Why do you think there were 5 red cards last weekend in the Gallagher - because the players are not as good as you or because they are much better and play wiith emotion on the edge?
I think what the doc was implying
Players who paid international wages should have enough experience to know the difference between emotion and anger, between aggressive  control and reckless indiscipline. In other words don't use passionate pride as an excuse for being reckless and certainly don't use the term "he plays right on the edge" as an excuse for deliberate fouls. Players like Sanjay, Farrell or Sinks are experienced players who are paid a lot of money not to let their team down by reckless indiscipline

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 27 Feb 2021, 8:15 am

Not seen Yeandles red but if it's like the other ones: don't aim for the head should do it.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 27 Feb 2021, 9:17 am

In some ways the number of cards are a measure of the number of player who maybe played on the edge, but who have not yet adapted to the fact that the edge has moved. They will.

We had a rash of cards for players caught in the air when the laws changed. We still get those cards but they are not so common now.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 27 Feb 2021, 10:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen Yeandles red but if it's like the other ones: don't aim for the head should do it.
When asked during the game Baxter made a point of saying that the players have known about these rules for a good while now and have had time to adapt, which I really liked hearing. He didn't complain just said we know the rules and have trained to not go into contact like that anymore.

Over the last few weeks there's been this strange outcry as if the rules changed on Saturday morning before that glut of reds in the Premiership. They didn't, the players just rocked up and made a lot of really dumb infringements on the same weekend in full knowledge of what would happen within the rules.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 27 Feb 2021, 10:42 am

Too bad Jason Leonard isn’t playing. It seems this is the fixture that he and his teammates really raises their game for.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 27 Feb 2021, 10:55 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Too bad Jason Leonard isn’t playing. It seems this is the fixture that he and his teammates really raises their game for.
5 hours until kickoff and you've already got the fishing rod out mikey!

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