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Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)


Last edited by TightHEAD on Thu 25 Feb 2021, 12:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by eirebilly Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:37 am

The ref is under no obligation to wait until a defense is set before blowing for time on and in a normal situation, this would have been fine but he asked Farrell to talk to his team so a bit of professional discretion was expected from him prior to blowing time on.

Nothing at all wrong with what Biggar and Wales did in this instance, they just played the referee perfectly. it was the referee that created this opportunity.

I agree with Dawson in that England do not seem to have a great deal of on field leadership right now and the last 1/4 of the match highlighted that incredibly. Wales kept their cool and pushed whilst England went into meltdown.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:For all the talk about the ref yesterday, one thing actually stood out for me, and that was the general behaviour of the English players, all the back slapping when a decision went their way, the goading ect...

We all know it goes on, but the English were just more in your face about it yesterday, perhaps this is why the officials take a very blunt view when it comes to England. What cannot speak, cannot lie, and with over 40 penalties against so far, and that is not including free kicks, speaks for itself.

It's a self-fulfilling cycle. England concede a lot of penalties, so referees are aware of this and take a harder look at England's next game, anything other than impeccable behaviour at the next game leads to England conceding a lot of penalties, and so on...

Difficult cycle to break out of.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:41 am

Itoje in particular needs to learn. His discipline is absolutely awful. His game is playing close to the line, but when you do this, you need to behave. Itoje does not behave, he goads, and is in the faces of the opposition, he cost England the game yesterday.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:42 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

No, why would you ask that ? I have not alluded to it. I am speaking about the penalty count over the first three games, and the behaviour of the English players.

Are you manufacturing an argument again ?

What would celebrating have to do with penalties conceded though? Hence my question as you said perhaps tuisbos why the officials take a blunt view.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

No, why would you ask that ? I have not alluded to it. I am speaking about the penalty count over the first three games, and the behaviour of the English players.

Are you manufacturing an argument again ?

What would celebrating have to do with penalties conceded though? Hence my question as you said perhaps tuisbos why the officials take a blunt view.

There is a name for people like you on these forums.

I am not suggesting anything. I am talking facts, at one point in the game, Keiron Hardy knocked a ball on from a line out, the whole England pack were jeering and shouting as if they had won the game.

Now a lot of talk has gone on in this topic about gamesmanship and poor sportsmanship when Dan Biggar took the quick pen, do you not think the English players goading comes into this bracket as well ?

For the record, I do not think the refs were biased. I thought all pens were legit. England conceded more.

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Post by Heaf Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:51 am

RiscaGame wrote:As much as I’d love to agree with Nigel Showtime, this is a guy who admitted he has never read the Laws of Rugby.

And yet his explanation is 100% consistent with the official definition of a knock-on and what most of us have been trying to explain all along ....

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:51 am

Itoje will go on the Lions tour, but it looks as if AWJ will have to come babysit him again so he’s not a penalty machine. Itoje and AWJ was one of the best Lions 2nd rows’ I have ever seen, thanks mostly to AWJ.

And a word on Wales’ back-row. The combo of Navidi, Tipuric and Faletau is magnificent. They do everything. I think our front row could do with getting through more work though, we are losing a lot because some of them aren’t mobile enough. Mako and George were running around like wingers yesterday.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:54 am

Shifty wrote:This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  Whistle

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

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Youd need to watch the live feed to judge rather than 2 still images.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:Itoje in particular needs to learn. His discipline is absolutely awful. His game is playing close to the line, but when you do this, you need to behave. Itoje does not behave, he goads, and is in the faces of the opposition, he cost England the game yesterday.

Again why would goading the opposition lead to penalties conceded?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:57 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

No, why would you ask that ? I have not alluded to it. I am speaking about the penalty count over the first three games, and the behaviour of the English players.

Are you manufacturing an argument again ?

What would celebrating have to do with penalties conceded though? Hence my question as you said perhaps tuisbos why the officials take a blunt view.

There is a name for people like you on these forums.

I am not suggesting anything. I am talking facts, at one point in the game, Keiron Hardy knocked a ball on from a line out, the whole England pack were jeering and shouting as if they had won the game.

Now a lot of talk has gone on in this topic about gamesmanship and poor sportsmanship when Dan Biggar took the quick pen, do you not think the English players goading comes into this bracket as well ?

For the record, I do not think the refs were biased. I thought all pens were legit. England conceded more.

So all the pens were legit in your eyes and so had nothing to do with perceived goading.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 11:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Itoje in particular needs to learn. His discipline is absolutely awful. His game is playing close to the line, but when you do this, you need to behave. Itoje does not behave, he goads, and is in the faces of the opposition, he cost England the game yesterday.

Again why would goading the opposition lead to penalties conceded?

Because he is putting himself in the spot light, everyone is noticing him and he his just generally rubbing people up the wrong way, in the wrong way. Thus when he needs the coin to fall his way up with a tight call, he does not get the benefit of the doubt.

How Itoje was not carded yesterday only the officials will know.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:00 pm

[quote="No 7&1/2"]
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

No, why would you ask that ? I have not alluded to it. I am speaking about the penalty count over the first three games, and the behaviour of the English players.

Are you manufacturing an argument again ?

What would celebrating have to do with penalties conceded though? Hence my question as you said perhaps tuisbos why the officials take a blunt view.

There is a name for people like you on these forums.

I am not suggesting anything. I am talking facts, at one point in the game, Keiron Hardy knocked a ball on from a line out, the whole England pack were jeering and shouting as if they had won the game.

Now a lot of talk has gone on in this topic about gamesmanship and poor sportsmanship when Dan Biggar took the quick pen, do you not think the English players goading comes into this bracket as well ?

For the record, I do not think the refs were biased. I thought all pens were legit. England conceded more.

So all the pens were legit in your eyes and so had nothing to do with perceived goading.[/quote

Yes all legit, and if the English players behaved properly, then perhaps the ref would have been more lenient towards them and could have conceded less.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Itoje in particular needs to learn. His discipline is absolutely awful. His game is playing close to the line, but when you do this, you need to behave. Itoje does not behave, he goads, and is in the faces of the opposition, he cost England the game yesterday.

Again why would goading the opposition lead to penalties conceded?

Because he is putting himself in the spot light, everyone is noticing him and he his just generally rubbing people up the wrong way, in the wrong way. Thus when he needs the coin to fall his way up with a tight call, he does not get the benefit of the doubt.

How Itoje was not carded yesterday only the officials will know.

I'd agree partially with that sentiment. 3 of the pens were very harsh.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Itoje in particular needs to learn. His discipline is absolutely awful. His game is playing close to the line, but when you do this, you need to behave. Itoje does not behave, he goads, and is in the faces of the opposition, he cost England the game yesterday.

Again why would goading the opposition lead to penalties conceded?

Because officials and World Rugby have picked up on it. I’ve seen refs tell the players not to do it in the Prem.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd agree partially with that sentiment. 3 of the pens were very harsh.

Which 3 ?

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Post by eirebilly Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:06 pm

Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.
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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:09 pm

eirebilly wrote:Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.

Yes, I know it goes on, but the English players are so rampant whilst doing it. More than any other nation. But yes, everyone does do it, to an extent.

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Post by Shifty Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Shifty wrote:This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  Whistle

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1

Youd need to watch the live feed to judge rather than 2 still images.

I took them directly off the live feed, frame by frame.

https://youtu.be/H0l6tipGdVA?t=91

1:31, on the video, you can clearly see the ball leave the hookers hands, and where Watson is when he catches it.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd agree partially with that sentiment. 3 of the pens were very harsh.

Which 3 ?

Offside, the lineout entry and the deliberate kick on were all harsh. The lineout one I suppose you can say is technically correct however tipuric 5 mins before did the same thing and got 2 warnings to leave and no penalty given. Suppose at that navidi got away with a strip off the floor.

All refs will look at different things of course but he wasnt too consistent or to be fair very good yesterday!

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:16 pm

eirebilly wrote:Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.
I really don't remember Itoje being this kind of penalty machine before. Am I mistaken? Or has something changed, do you all think?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

No, why would you ask that ? I have not alluded to it. I am speaking about the penalty count over the first three games, and the behaviour of the English players.

Are you manufacturing an argument again ?

What would celebrating have to do with penalties conceded though? Hence my question as you said perhaps tuisbos why the officials take a blunt view.

There is a name for people like you on these forums.

I am not suggesting anything. I am talking facts, at one point in the game, Keiron Hardy knocked a ball on from a line out, the whole England pack were jeering and shouting as if they had won the game.

Now a lot of talk has gone on in this topic about gamesmanship and poor sportsmanship when Dan Biggar took the quick pen, do you not think the English players goading comes into this bracket as well ?

For the record, I do not think the refs were biased. I thought all pens were legit. England conceded more.

So all the pens were legit in your eyes and so had nothing to do with perceived goading.[/quote

Yes all legit, and if the English players behaved properly, then perhaps the ref would have been more lenient towards them and could have conceded less.

Well disagree on the accuracy of the pens. Again I dont think not celebrating impacts the ref. You seem to now be suggesting he would favour England normally.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:18 pm

eirebilly wrote:Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.

I'm surprised he was as calm after that try!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:21 pm

Shifty wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Shifty wrote:This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  Whistle

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1

Youd need to watch the live feed to judge rather than 2 still images.

I took them directly off the live feed, frame by frame.

https://youtu.be/H0l6tipGdVA?t=91

1:31, on the video, you can clearly see the ball leave the hookers hands, and where Watson is when he catches it.

Doesnt look forward to me from his hands.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:22 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.
I really don't remember Itoje being this kind of penalty machine before.  Am I mistaken?  Or has something changed, do you all think?

He plays to the edge. Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get pinged inaccurately.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd agree partially with that sentiment. 3 of the pens were very harsh.

Which 3 ?

Offside, the lineout entry and the deliberate kick on were all harsh. The lineout one I suppose you can say is technically correct however tipuric 5 mins before did the same thing and got 2 warnings to leave and no penalty given. Suppose at that navidi got away with a strip off the floor.

All refs will look at different things of course but he wasnt too consistent or to be fair very good yesterday!

Again, all penalties. So I cannot see where you are coming from.

Itoje bases his game on flirting with the offside rule, thats how he gets so many charge downs, he got away with more than he conceded on that front yesterday, but he was not alone on that front. Jumping across the lineout is a pen, and deliberate knock ons are pens, so there is nothing to complain about is there ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:27 pm

Well there is if you know the laws.

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Post by Shifty Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Shifty wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Shifty wrote:This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  Whistle

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1

Youd need to watch the live feed to judge rather than 2 still images.

I took them directly off the live feed, frame by frame.

https://youtu.be/H0l6tipGdVA?t=91

1:31, on the video, you can clearly see the ball leave the hookers hands, and where Watson is when he catches it.

Doesnt look forward to me from his hands.

Don't look at his hands look at the square grass pallets on the floor.  Look at where the ball leaves Georges his hands and his feet against the grass line when he throws it, then forward it on a few frames and look where Watson catches it.  It's clearly well forward.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:35 pm

Shifty wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Shifty wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Shifty wrote:This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  Whistle

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1

Youd need to watch the live feed to judge rather than 2 still images.

I took them directly off the live feed, frame by frame.

https://youtu.be/H0l6tipGdVA?t=91

1:31, on the video, you can clearly see the ball leave the hookers hands, and where Watson is when he catches it.

Doesnt look forward to me from his hands.

Don't look at his hands look at the square grass pallets on the floor.  Look at where the ball leaves Georges his hands and his feet against the grass line when he throws it, then forward it on a few frames and look where Watson catches it.  It's clearly well forward.

Wow.

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Post by Shifty Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:38 pm

Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1a
Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1b
no sign in

PICTURE 1, BALL LEAVING GEORGES HANDS - BALL IN FLIGHT
PICTURE 2, WATSON ABOUT TO CATCH BALL - BALL IN FLIGHT
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Post by Heaf Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:40 pm

Using that technique a lot of passes would be ruled forwards ... it's the old momentum debate again ...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:42 pm

Wow shifty. Quit while you're behind!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:44 pm

Heaf wrote:Using that technique a lot of passes would be ruled forwards ... it's the old momentum debate again ...

The only debate is if it should be down to momentum. Theres no debate that that is how refs are trained to apply the law.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:45 pm

I love this place at times. We have the English fans on here saying how hard done by they were by the officials yesterday, but when shifty points out something that went their way, and cost Wales a try, using pictures and lines and evidence, the same fans want to ignore it and call it something else.

Only on V2. Laugh

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.

That is a major issue with Farrell as captain in my opinion he is very abrupt in the way he speaks. That's just generally as well and the heavy northern accent makes his words sound clipped as well. He sounds annoyed in his normal speaking voice if you aren't used to the accent so he tends to come across as quite confrontational, particularly if English isn't your first language as the referee yesterday wasn't.

England could do with someone a little more charismatic and personal taking the captain mantel on. At least in terms of talking to the ref. Farrell can be leading the chat to the players but in the current game communication with the officials is increasing important. Not that I can think of an easy solution to that.

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Post by Shifty Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:48 pm

Heaf wrote:Using that technique a lot of passes would be ruled forwards ... it's the old momentum debate again ...

It's the 5 metre line, the pass is about 2.5 metres forward.
8 foot 2 inches in old money, pretty substancial.


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Post by Duty281 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:49 pm

Shifty wrote:Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1a
Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21 - Page 15 1b
no sign in

PICTURE 1, BALL LEAVING GEORGES HANDS - BALL IN FLIGHT
PICTURE 2, WATSON ABOUT TO CATCH BALL - BALL IN FLIGHT

Forward passes are generally (but not always!) judged on how the ball comes out of the hands, not the final destination of the pass. It doesn't look forward out of his hands, though the angle may be deceptive, so I'd say it's a fair call to allow this try.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I love this place at times. We have the English fans on here saying how hard done by they were by the officials yesterday, but when shifty points out something that went their way, and cost Wales a try, using pictures and lines and evidence, the same fans want to ignore it and call it something else.

Only on V2. Laugh

Because you don't use still images to determine a forward pass. You look at how the ball leaves the hands and then you run the pass at full speed to see if momentum is a factor. If Shifty has a close up with the ball leaving his hands forward then I'll be in agreement but otherwise it's fine and as several Welsh players fell off easy tackles after that point including AWJ then it's hard to say it cost Wales as much as a clear knock on and restarting the game without warning cost England.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I love this place at times. We have the English fans on here saying how hard done by they were by the officials yesterday, but when shifty points out something that went their way, and cost Wales a try, using pictures and lines and evidence, the same fans want to ignore it and call it something else.

Only on V2. Laugh

Dont group people together its lazy and beneath you. I also thought you knew the laws on forward passes?

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Post by Heaf Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I love this place at times. We have the English fans on here saying how hard done by they were by the officials yesterday, but when shifty points out something that went their way, and cost Wales a try, using pictures and lines and evidence, the same fans want to ignore it and call it something else.

Only on V2. Laugh

Not quite LD - I'm prepared to accept there may have been a forward pass although I don't think there was, but this is one of those tight calls maybe.  My issue is really the abject officiating that led to the first two tries.  Whether Wales would still have won or not is not really the issue for me - it's the shocking performance of the officials in general lately eg the first try Ireland 'scored' being called incorrectly in their match by the TMO saying it wasn't properly grounded when the replay showed clearly it was a perfectly legit try.  We see the same rubbish from officials in the premiership on a regular basis, particularly at the moment with massive inconsistencies around cards.


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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:56 pm

But you would have to agree if the try was not given then you could argue that the correct call was made ?

So in essence Wales did not have all the calls go their way, and the officials were not all biased against England ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:But you would have to agree if the try was not given then you could argue that the correct call was made ?

So in essence Wales did not have all the calls go their way, and the officials were not all biased against England ?

People can argue many things incorrectly. Shifty for instance isnt arguing that the pass was forward out of George's hands but that the ball ended up moving forward. We all watch enough rugby to know that's not how to interpret the law.

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Post by Shifty Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:57 pm

I'm afraid there is no grey area when it comes to forward passes.
The camera angle is good, the pallet and pitch lines are clear.
It's forward and Wales were robbed of a try by a poor linesman decision, it's likely to avoid controversy the referee gave one back to England after the first try.
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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I love this place at times. We have the English fans on here saying how hard done by they were by the officials yesterday, but when shifty points out something that went their way, and cost Wales a try, using pictures and lines and evidence, the same fans want to ignore it and call it something else.

Only on V2. Laugh

Dont group people together its lazy and beneath you. I also thought you knew the laws on forward passes?

Then why are you, yes you dismissing Shifty's point ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:58 pm

Shifty wrote:I'm afraid there is no grey area when it comes to forward passes.  
The camera angle is good, the pallet and pitch lines are clear.
It's forward and Wales were robbed of a try by a poor linesman decision, it's likely to avoid controversy the referee gave one back to England after the first try.

That's not the law however.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 12:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I love this place at times. We have the English fans on here saying how hard done by they were by the officials yesterday, but when shifty points out something that went their way, and cost Wales a try, using pictures and lines and evidence, the same fans want to ignore it and call it something else.

Only on V2. Laugh

Dont group people together its lazy and beneath you. I also thought you knew the laws on forward passes?

Then why are you, yes you dismissing Shifty's point ?

Because that's not how the law is interpreted. Hes arguing from an incorrect point to start with. I offered my opinion on how the ball was released and he said its immaterial. Hes wrong.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun 28 Feb 2021, 1:03 pm

But you have said that Itoje was harshly dealt with by the officials 3 times, when as you say, you know the laws.

You cannot jump across the lineout, you cannot stray offside, and you cannot deliberately knock the ball on, all three things that Itoje did, but you in all your authority say the calls were harsh.

Well come on upholder of the rugby laws, are they pens or not ?

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Post by Heaf Sun 28 Feb 2021, 1:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:But you would have to agree if the try was not given then you could argue that the correct call was made ?

So in essence Wales did not have all the calls go their way, and the officials were not all biased against England ?

I've not said either of those things - I'm just saying the officiating of the first 2 tries was appalling ....

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 28 Feb 2021, 1:05 pm

The Welsh guru has spoken and Nigel Owens explains why both controversial tries were bad decisions by the ref. No surprise at all as we could all clearly see they were wrong, but good to have clarity from this great man.

'It's 100 per cent a knock on!' Nigel Owens explains exactly why Wales v England ref Pascal Gauzere got BOTH tries wrong

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 28 Feb 2021, 1:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:But you have said that Itoje was harshly dealt with by the officials 3 times, when as you say, you know the laws.

You cannot jump across the lineout, you cannot stray offside, and you cannot deliberately knock the ball on, all three things that Itoje did, but you in all your authority say the calls were harsh.

Well come on upholder of the rugby laws, are they pens or not ?

It was the maul I was talking about not the lineout jump across. I've said what i think on those calls.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 28 Feb 2021, 1:06 pm

A clip from an article in the Guardian

"Well, Gaüzère is an experienced referee, has been in Test rugby for the best part of decade. Which also means there is a little history here. Back in 2018 Eddie Jones was so offended by the way Gaüzère had handled a game between Wales and Scotland that he said publicly that he had brought the issue up with World Rugby.

A year later, in 2019, Gaüzère was the referee for a World Cup warm-up between England and Wales. He let Biggar take a quick penalty in the run-up to George North’s match-winning try while England were waiting for Anthony Watson – who had just been sent to the sin-bin – to leave the pitch. It wasn’t too dissimilar to Adams’s try this time.

“Maybe the yellow card should have been shown to the referee,” Jones said after that match. This time he bit his lip – so hard it was almost a surprise he could speak at all for the bleeding. But in a way he didn’t really need to say anything. Gaüzère’s performance spoke for itself.
"

Maybe getting his retribution.


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