Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)

[MonkeyMan]

Dydd Gŵyl Dewi Hapus Pawb

[TightHEAD]

Pascal Gaüzère wishes everyone in Wales a Happy St David's Day

[No 7&1/2]

Looks like Gauzere has admitted his errors, though if anyone has a small smattering of french wants to add quotes they can!
Shame that it spoiled the game and I'm still pretty amazed such errors were made.

[MonkeyMan]

Pascal Gaüzère wishes everyone in Wales a Happy St David's Day

He's a good egg that man

[WELL-PAST-IT]

O'Sullivan has never asked an original question (on rugby) in her entire career. All her questions are set out for her before hand and she doe snot have either the intelligence or the authority to change them when they become in appropriate.

You will notice she never asks anything in response to an answer, just goes to the next on her list.

What do Butler, Jiffy and O'Sullivan do outside of the few games the BBC now shows, Butler and Jiffy have columns in various rags. What does O'Sullivan do, you never see her anywhere else unless it is the mens over 70's pitch and putt at the senior Olympics.

If the BBC cannot be bothered to put a decent team together, then just stop showing rugby, they are an embarrassment. Warburton excepted, he was a breath of fresh air and has at least played the game in the professional era.

[chris_501]

It's interesting that such importance is being put on the referee for England's loss. In the same way that the sending offs to O'Mahony and Fagerson were so heavily attributed to Ireland and Scottish losses.

[No 7&1/2]

It's interesting that such importance is being put on the referee for England's loss. In the same way that the sending offs to O'Mahony and Fagerson were so heavily attributed to Ireland and Scottish losses.

Suppose the difference is the disappoint in 2 absolute howlers which you just dont tend to see anywhere vs 2 correct decisions in the other matches. All the decisions obviously contributed.

[chris_501]

It's interesting that such importance is being put on the referee for England's loss. In the same way that the sending offs to O'Mahony and Fagerson were so heavily attributed to Ireland and Scottish losses.

Suppose the difference is the disappoint in 2 absolute howlers which you just dont tend to see anywhere vs 2 correct decisions in the other matches. All the decisions obviously contributed.

I guess what I mean is, these pages have been far more dominated by referee talk than anything else. I would agree that they play a contributory factor in the loss, but are by no means the most important.

[No 7&1/2]

They were imo.

[doctor_grey]

Dydd Gŵyl Dewi Hapus Pawb

Diolch!

[doctor_grey]

Looks like Gauzere has admitted his errors, though if anyone has a small smattering of french wants to add quotes they can!
Shame that it spoiled the game and I'm still pretty amazed such errors were made.

Would really like to read what he said. Where did you see it? In French is OK.

[No 7&1/2]

It was a random twitter thread doc. The person who quoted it translated the main point. Will try and find it.

[No 7&1/2]

Here: https://twitter.com/veroniquelandew/status/1366323916550062081?s=19

Hoping it's not some sort of french april fools thing. Hated french at school.

[chris_501]

They were imo.

I would have said the accumulation of penalties, along with the issue of selection of off form players were bigger impacts.

The two decisions led to a points swing of +11 for Wales, with the Hardy try and 3 mindless penalties in the last 20 minutes accounting for +16 points. Now obviously each decision earlier in the game has an impact on the later play, so I'm not saying there was no way England could have won without those two try calls, but it's being overplayed in my opinion.

[No 7&1/2]

They were imo.

I would have said the accumulation of penalties, along with the issue of selection of off form players were bigger impacts.

The two decisions led to a points swing of +11 for Wales, with the Hardy try and 3 mindless penalties in the last 20 minutes accounting for +16 points. Now obviously each decision earlier in the game has an impact on the later play, so I'm not saying there was no way England could have won without those two try calls, but it's being overplayed in my opinion.

It changes quite a lot. You end up chasing and forcing things. Of course the best way is to take ref errors out of the equation. Just such obvious errors. The reds in the other games are big impacts too.

[Sharkey06]

I think to get back to 24 - 24 was a great effort by England. But I don't think any of the decisions which came after that when Wales scored 16 unanswered points can be pinned on the referee.  Yes he made some tough calls, but he was fairly tough on both teams.  Having got back to 24 - 24, if the ENgland players let the earlier try decisions negatively affect them, then they are mentally weak.

And why is it continually England who get caught out by other teams taking quick penalties?  Daly turning his back on the Welsh team when they were awarded a penalty 15 yards out typifies a weak spot that our players have.

[Guest]

O'Sullivan has never asked an original question (on rugby) in her entire career. All her questions are set out for her before hand and she doe snot have either the intelligence or the authority to change them when they become in appropriate.

You will notice she never asks anything in response to an answer, just goes to the next on her list.

What do Butler, Jiffy and O'Sullivan do outside of the few games the BBC now shows, Butler and Jiffy have columns in various rags. What does O'Sullivan do, you never see her anywhere else unless it is the mens over 70's pitch and putt at the senior Olympics.

If the BBC cannot be bothered to put a decent team together, then just stop showing rugby, they are an embarrassment. Warburton excepted, he was a breath of fresh air and has at least played the game in the professional era.

I can only comment on Jiffy, but he's quite busy. He doesn't just do the 6N:

6 Nations pundit
6 Nations live game commentator
Commentator on BBC aired Pro14 games.
He's a weekly pundit on Scrum V on BBC.
Commentator on some rugby league games still (I think).
He's got his own chat show on S4C titled 'Jonathan'.
He's the president of Velindre Cancer Centre and does a lot of charity fundraising stuff for them.

None of this is really keeps him relevant in the modern game, which is probably the point you were making. But just thought I'd point out that he's not just doing the 6N and nothing else!

[Collapse2005]

To be fair to Wales they do have good players but I think its fair to say that was the jammiest triple crown in the history of the six nations.

Ill be surprised if they dont get spanked by France albeit the way the championship us going the game will probably be cancelled and awarded to Wales or something mad.

[lostinwales]

I think to get back to 24 - 24 was a great effort by England. But I don't think any of the decisions which came after that when Wales scored 16 unanswered points can be pinned on the referee.  Yes he made some tough calls, but he was fairly tough on both teams.  Having got back to 24 - 24, if the ENgland players let the earlier try decisions negatively affect them, then they are mentally weak.

And why is it continually England who get caught out by other teams taking quick penalties?  Daly turning his back on the Welsh team when they were awarded a penalty 15 yards out typifies a weak spot that our players have.

Played a lot of rugby at schoolboy level, nothing much afterwards. We had a very good team - lost 4 games in 5 years I think. I pretty much only remember one - where the other team's games master who was acting as referee effectively reffed us out of the game. Never played advantage always blew up on the slightest pretext. You can't underestimate how draining that can be.

[Heaf]

Looks like Gauzere has admitted his errors, though if anyone has a small smattering of french wants to add quotes they can!
Shame that it spoiled the game and I'm still pretty amazed such errors were made.

Would really like to read what he said.  Where did you see it?  In French is OK.

There's this too:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-england-referee-pascal-19938253

And the official Specsavers twitter account has come up with this quite funny tweet:

"Who is Pascal Gaüzère and why are hundreds of people trying to get him an emergency eye test with us?..."

[Northgrill]

It's interesting that such importance is being put on the referee for England's loss. In the same way that the sending offs to O'Mahony and Fagerson were so heavily attributed to Ireland and Scottish losses.

Suppose the difference is the disappoint in 2 absolute howlers which you just dont tend to see anywhere vs 2 correct decisions in the other matches. All the decisions obviously contributed.

Think this is true. Although we didn’t hear much for the 3 contentious issues that went our way against Italy (May knock on in lead up to first try, May jumping/hurdling the tackler for second and Farrell’s late hit for Watsons try which should have been called back). Swings and roundabouts. Although that second Welsh try was unforgivable.

[dummy_half]

Not sure I agree with Jutge that the Law on knock-on is ambiguous or unclear for the situation on Saturday:

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The two bits in bold seem to be the most applicable to the LRZ incident - the ball was passed slightly behind him, and in trying to catch it he knocks the ball forward with his right hand (pretty sure no-one disputes this bit). The only thing that negates this subsequently being a knock on, as written in the Law, would be for LRZ to catch the ball before it hits the ground or another player - no other action of the player or ball is mentioned. Of course he could keep juggling the ball, do a couple of keepy uppies etc, as long as he then catches the ball before it hits the ground or is touched by another player, and all's good, but it's a knock on if he doesn't catch the ball.

At least the knock on Law doesn't have the ambiguity of the 'throw forward' Law - 'goes forward' is clearly a reference to the ball relative to the pitch, unlike 'thrown forward' where motion of the hands and momentum have become the mode of judgement.

Actually, as written there are a couple of interesting scenarios:
1 - a player juggles the ball, knocking forward but kicks the ball up into the air before it hits the ground. If the same player catches the ball cleanly, then by the letter of the law it seems OK. Would take some skill...

2. Contrarily, a player juggles the ball forward, but as their last action manages to tap the ball back in the air to a supporting player without catching the ball or having it fully under control - this would appear to be a knock on by the letter of the law

[LordDowlais]

Whilst I agree with some of what has been said on here, lets not forget, Wales did nothing wrong for the 1st try. There was no law saying what Wales did was wrong.

Secondly, I agree, the second try was a knock on. Also, watching the highlights, and using Shiftys evidence on this thread, England's first try was a result from a forward pass, Jamie George shovels it forwards.

So in retrospect, we can notch Wales down to 33points and England down to 17points.

The ref was awful for both sides, yet it would seem that the way things are being said on here, you would think it was all one way, well it wasn't.

[No 7&1/2]

Wales did nothing wrong in the 1st. Still a bad decision.

I dont think George's pass was forward.

[whatahitson]

On O'Sullivans questions.  I thought she was bang out of order clearly being very provocative attempting to get Farrell to say something he should not.  I cannot stand Farrell but his answers to her provocative questions were absolutely spot on.  Model pro stuff.  That of course does not excuse the on line abuse but live by the sword and die by it

She was very direct but there's a short amount of time allotted per interview and she asked about the topics all the fans were discussing. I'd have probably asked a more general question first to ease into the interview but her job was to give the chance for the two captains to weigh in on the controversial decisions. Just gave them the chance and they chose the replies they did.

The stuff on Twitter aimed at her and Genge is pathetic. There's a small minority that either need to get a life or not drink so much before spouting rubbish on social media. I hope their details are passed to the authorities when threats have been made or insults have gone too far.

The whole thing is a pantomime.

The players just give stock media answers I mean Faletau said nothing in his post match conference. There's not much point in those interviews. The journalists have to say something shocking hoping to get a headline. And twitter is a cesspit where you can literally lose your livelihood for not being woke enough so don't be surprised when you're also abused for using it as a publishing platform for journalism or public relations. Why can't people just ignore social media trolls why do we have to pretend like Ellis Genge receiving "death threats" by some idiot on twitter is the same as say Neil Lennon receiving a bullet in the post. It isn't.

[lostinwales]

Whilst I agree with some of what has been said on here, lets not forget, Wales did nothing wrong for the 1st try. There was no law saying what Wales did was wrong.

Secondly, I agree, the second try was a knock on. Also, watching the highlights, and using Shiftys evidence on this thread, England's first try was a result from a forward pass, Jamie George shovels it forwards.

So in retrospect, we can notch Wales down to 33points and England down to 17points.

The ref was awful for both sides, yet it would seem that the way things are being said on here, you would think it was all one way, well it wasn't.

Letter of the law vs spirit of the game.

I do think the ref was hard on both teams and as a result chunks of the game were both sides just waiting for the other to get penalised in order to get field position. There were very promising moments from both sides and it could have been a good game with a referee who was more sympathetic to keeping everything flowing.

[whatahitson]

O'Sullivan has never asked an original question (on rugby) in her entire career. All her questions are set out for her before hand and she doe snot have either the intelligence or the authority to change them when they become in appropriate.

You will notice she never asks anything in response to an answer, just goes to the next on her list.

What do Butler, Jiffy and O'Sullivan do outside of the few games the BBC now shows, Butler and Jiffy have columns in various rags. What does O'Sullivan do, you never see her anywhere else unless it is the mens over 70's pitch and putt at the senior Olympics.

If the BBC cannot be bothered to put a decent team together, then just stop showing rugby, they are an embarrassment. Warburton excepted, he was a breath of fresh air and has at least played the game in the professional era.

I find her to be annoying and oddly inappropriate on the BBC's rugby podcast. I hate when journalists try to 'banter' with sportsmen and she is particularly egregious. That said sports journalism is full of Alan Partridge figures not many are interested in simply doing their job competently anymore there's a lot of egotism and they're all addicted to the prestige they have on twitter, rubbing virtual shoulders with politicians and celebrities. The BBC as a whole is going backwards at a rate of knots all the front-facing media personalities are very poor I mean where else would Jermaine Jenas be considered one of the stars of your company. Jill Douglas was far better but she is now with ITV. Sonja was always the terrible pitchside pundit asking stupid or cliched question.

[BamBam]

Couldn't watch the game live, read through all the comments on here then gritted my teeth and sat through it yesterday evening.

I had to agree with the comments of most. The decisions for the first two Welsh tries were unbelievable, and if the ref has actually apologised then fair play to him. The person all over this thread with some nonsense about an imaginary forward pass for Watson's try is obviously a very unsurprising deflection tactic.

We'll never know how the game would have gone if those decisions were made the right way, but there's no justification for the mindless penalties England gave away towards the end of the game.

[No9]

There was NOTHING wrong with the first try... England caught napping, cant blame anyone bar the English players..




As circled in RED.. Those players took their defensive positions, so there was no reason (apart from being slack) for the other side defensive players to be in position.

Was a good try and brilliantly played by Biggar.

The knock on ... Was it.. It came off LRZ leg BACKWARDS.. no one can disagree that. It hit Slades knee where it went towards the try line..

But if you took them off, the first would have been a Penalty (so 3pts instead of 7 = 4 diff) and 7 off for Liam's.. Score would be 29-24.... Still a good win for Wales..

Now you'll get .. but lose those and the game would have been different.. OK.. But when it was 24-24, it was even, yet England did nothing, and Wales scored another 16pts. So basically Wales won that battle 16-0..

No matter which way you carve it up.. Wales Won... England Lost.. about time you guys just accept it.

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah Bam. It's strange to see people argue black is white even when the ref holds his hands up.

[mikey_dragon]

Couldn't watch the game live, read through all the comments on here then gritted my teeth and sat through it yesterday evening.

I had to agree with the comments of most. The decisions for the first two Welsh tries were unbelievable, and if the ref has actually apologised then fair play to him. The gammon then spaffing all over this thread with some nonsense about an imaginary forward pass for Watson's try is obviously a very unsurprising deflection tactic.

We'll never know how the game would have gone if those decisions were made the right way, but there's no justification for the mindless penalties England gave away towards the end of the game.

You’re obsessed with gammon. Gammon for breakfast, dinner and tea today eh?

[BamBam]

Couldn't watch the game live, read through all the comments on here then gritted my teeth and sat through it yesterday evening.

I had to agree with the comments of most. The decisions for the first two Welsh tries were unbelievable, and if the ref has actually apologised then fair play to him. The gammon then spaffing all over this thread with some nonsense about an imaginary forward pass for Watson's try is obviously a very unsurprising deflection tactic.

We'll never know how the game would have gone if those decisions were made the right way, but there's no justification for the mindless penalties England gave away towards the end of the game.

You’re obsessed with gammon. Gammon for breakfast, dinner and tea today eh?

Not as obsessed as you were with me after the game ended on Saturday based on this thread

Glad to know I've got a rent free spot in your head xxx

[No9]

Just had an email from Guinness 6 Nations asking me to vote for the try of the round..

Disappointed that Josh Adams and Liam Williams isn't listed.. Its a farce, they're listing Watson which we all know was from a forward pass..

...

[No 7&1/2]

They're you mean.

[mikey_dragon]

Couldn't watch the game live, read through all the comments on here then gritted my teeth and sat through it yesterday evening.

I had to agree with the comments of most. The decisions for the first two Welsh tries were unbelievable, and if the ref has actually apologised then fair play to him. The gammon then spaffing all over this thread with some nonsense about an imaginary forward pass for Watson's try is obviously a very unsurprising deflection tactic.

We'll never know how the game would have gone if those decisions were made the right way, but there's no justification for the mindless penalties England gave away towards the end of the game.

You’re obsessed with gammon. Gammon for breakfast, dinner and tea today eh?

Not as obsessed as you were with me after the game ended on Saturday based on this thread

Glad to know I've got a rent free spot in your head xxx

Obsessed? One comment mind and all of a sudden I’m obsessed.

AWJ lives rent free in your head; images of AWJ eating his gammon opposite the triple crown .

[BamBam]

Obsessed? One comment mind and all of a sudden I’m obsessed.

2 hours after his team wins his World Cup final and mikey_dragon storms on to v2 furiously typing a dig at someone who hadn't even posted a single comment about the game

Definition of obsessed

[No9]

They're you mean.

Don't know what you mean... You saying I cant spell...  

Just had an email from Guinness 6 Nations asking me to vote for the try of the round..

Disappointed that Josh Adams and Liam Williams isn't listed.. Its a farce, their listing Watson which we all know was from a forward pass..

...

Spoiler:

[mikey_dragon]

Obsessed? One comment mind and all of a sudden I’m obsessed.

2 hours after his team wins his World Cup final and mikey_dragon storms on to v2 furiously typing a dig at someone who hadn't even posted a single comment about the game

Definition of obsessed

Well it’s not the definition really is it? Caveman trying to pass off his opinion as fact again.

So that’s two world cup finals England have lost under Jones then, and they got stuffed in both games...

[quinsforever]

"Joël Jutge, World Rugby’s Head of Match Officials, says Pascal Gauzere has acknowledged to him that he got both contentious first-half incidents wrong in Saturday’s Six Nations clash between Wales and England.

Wales won 40-24 in Cardiff to keep their Grand Slam hopes alive. But there was there was huge controversy after Gauzere awarded Wayne Pivac's side two first-half tries. Jutge told Midi Olympiqe that he had spoken with Gauzere by telephone on Sunday morning and that the Frenchman was the “first to admit” he had erred."

from Telegraph

[quinsforever]

I said that World Rugby would say something about both those tries today....

[BamBam]

No mikey, just your World Cup final, no one else’s! Glad you spent your Saturday evening thinking of me though, get a girlfriend and it might be a bit less weird xxx

[mikey_dragon]

No mikey, just your World Cup final, no one else’s! Glad you spent your Saturday evening thinking of me though, get a girlfriend and it might be a bit less weird xxx

You can keep repeating the lie if you like, it’s not going to stick, I’d leave that to your politics chat if I were you. Glad you spent your Saturday evening thinking of AWJ with gammon

[Heaf]

No9, I don't think anyone's saying England would have won without those shocking calls by the ref, they are complaining about the awful officiating that's unacceptable at this level - the fact that the ref admits he got both calls wrong should at least put that debate to rest. As it was he ruined what could have been a great game.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It's tickling me more than it should that somewhere along the line, Sonia O'Sullivan replaced Sonja McLaughlan, and it's stuck. Is there a women's long-distance section on here?

[whatahitson]

I said that World Rugby would say something about both those tries today....

As did I. Very disappointing but the damage is now done and England pay the penalty. Gauzere definitely had it in for England. Jones has done the right thing by biting his lip this time. If we have him referee a world cup game we can't afford to be playing 16 men.

[Scarpia]

There were certainly two terrible decisions by the officials.

Itoje should have been yellow carded - 5 penalties!

There was a clear forward pass in the lead up to Youngs' try

[lostinwales]

There were definitely some moronic penalties, but some were possibly a little harsh too.

[majesticimperialman]

Referee Pascal Gauzere Admits he got both calls wrong for Wales firstv 2 tries.

That is a bit like bolting the stable door once the horse as run off.

[formerly known as Sam]

There were certainly two terrible decisions by the officials.

Itoje should have been yellow carded - 5 penalties!

There was a clear forward pass in the lead up to Youngs' try

What about AWJ being pinged in consecutive rucks less than 10ms from his line killing England momentum? Not even a warning.

[Scarpia]

Referee Pascal Gauzere Admits he got both calls wrong for Wales firstv 2 tries.

That is a bit like bolting the stable door once the horse as run off.

Just as well Wales won by 16 points not 14 or fewer

[Sponsored content]