England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

king_carlos wrote:I rate Stone but Broad's cutters looked dangerous in the two overs he got before lunch. A bit surprised he hasn't been plugged in at one end for a few here.

Been out and not seen this patch of play. But yes I'm surprised Broad didn't have another go after lunch. He's been almost a spectator in this match.

India ploughing on safely for a hour , no alarms ? Shows if you bat long enough runs can be scored on this , I guess. But England will be regretting that Stokes drop off Broad...

Hi Alfie - yep, all pretty comfortable for India since lunch. Trickiest thing for Kohli might be deciding when to declare.

Glad to see Broad on, both for his cutters and the desperate hope he can get me some points in Joey's comp!

I think as KPF alluded to that there's a factor of pressure off for the Indian batsman now as well. When they came together with the lead at 300 it was likely already enough but England had wrestled a modicum of momentum back with 5 swift wickets. Now that momentum is completely gone, the lead nearly 400 and England looking pretty tired.

I've never played cricket in Chennai but that heat must be brutal in situations like this when you are running around knowing the game has already gone. India are just grinding England down now with two Tests to come. A perfect situation for India. Kohli and Ashwin have batted very well for them

On the upside I'm quite enjoying the collection of pundits on TMS (or The Cricket Social) this morning. Cook, Guha, Oldroyd with Aggers and Zaltzman. Never mind here comes Vaughan....

Gilly praising Foakes now as well. He's certainly drawing in the plaudits for his glove work.

Zaltzman is a welcome 'permanent' addition to the TMS team, mixes humour with supreme knowledge in a way that Andrew Samson can't. Samson is also very good in fairness but not as entertaining.

Moeen gets Kohli on a tight lbw (umpire's) call...England needed that ! The worry now is that Moeen will take five now and be nailed on for the foreseeable future

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie - yep, all pretty comfortable for India since lunch. Trickiest thing for Kohli might be deciding when to declare.

Glad to see Broad on, both for his cutters and the desperate hope he can get me some points in Joey's comp!

Yeah he's done nothing for me either ! Not that he's had a lot of opportunity...England might as well have picked three spinners.

I do think he's been underused though.

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong... 

Annoyingly CricViz aren't able to use their ball tracking data in this series, so aren't able to gather their Expected Wickets stats (xW) like they where in Sri Lanka.

For example, the balls Bess bowled in SL were expected to give him seven wickets at 35.9, taking into account length, drift, turn etc - but he ended up with 12 at 21.25. It would be interesting to see how Moeen would compare. Conclusions of one innings are never cast iron, but would have been interesting to compare.

I suppose it might be interesting. But really , these Cricviz "projections" I take with a large helping of salt . Cricket isn't played on a computer...these "expected to give him" things strike me as akin to Moores speaking about "looking at the data " after England's ODI team got hammered in that World Cup contest...

Haha, I do wonder if that is a bit of a generational thing Alfie.

It’s not the be all and end all or course, and it’s a projection very much in it’s infancy - and like baseball has come to realise you need a synthesis of the two. Data and what you see with your eyes. Cricket is still a long way behind in what data they do gather.  But the bowlers with the lowest xW in past few years were people like Rabada, Anderson, Hazlewood. So it passes the smell test for not being completely erroneous!

Yeah my age might be a factor there   But I'm not surprised the figures will match fairly well over time ... logically , they ought to.  Where I take issue is in using such projections to almost disregard actual results in  a small sample : and perhaps influencing a selection move in this match that isn't looking any better with hindsight ?   You don't need Cricviz to tell you Bess got some lucky wickets in Sri Lanka . But when someone gets lucky a lot it is often a sign there is a little more going on than the pitch map indicates. The battle between bat and ball is mental as well as physical.  Generally I'd select my team on results , at least until they dry up...

Oh yes, as with all these things it is dangerous to use in small sample sizes. The worse case being for individual actions whether it be football or cricket. But over the number of balls Bess bowled in Sri Lanka you can start to draw some conclusions I feel. The idea being you can get ahead of the results inevitably tailing off and make the change early. That is the idea I go with for my fantasy football team anyway!

The big value is plucking people out of CC though. Helps you focus in on some prospects who can you look at more closely.

Zaltzman is excellent. A stand-up comic with an obsession about cricket and deep knowledge of stats. A potent combination for that role. I've seen Zaltz at Edinburgh a few times during the fringe and he's a fantastic stand-up.

Thankfully England have eventually got Kohli. Hopefully one brings a few here as England could do with this being their last session in the field for the sake of wearing the players down.

And no luck for Broad...even Foakes can't hold a catch for him !

Tough chance ; but Foakes will feel he'd take it more often than not. Stood back now.

Kuldeep takes a single off Broad to get me my first point from either of these two in Joey's comp!

Broad's had some bad luck though. Little used in this innings but suffered two drops already.

Kuldeep gone. Lead over 400 but the sooner it's wrapped up the better.

Another one for Mo ! Skidded on and looked good live...India's turn to waste a review.

All coming too late but it will boost KP_fan's tipping competition points

Caught a bit of the kholi innings...just painful for England. Mo' once again delivering more wickets than good balls.

king_carlos wrote:Kuldeep gone. Lead over 400 but the sooner it's wrapped up the better.

I guess. Trouble is it might just herald a massacre

alfie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Kuldeep gone. Lead over 400 but the sooner it's wrapped up the better.

I guess.  Trouble is it might just herald a massacre

Yep. I fear this will be a situation where the India spinners, new ball, men all around the bat and pressure on England conspire to make batting look impossible. It happens so often after a side well ahead scores a few to keep the trailing side out in the field. With the pressure off and the bowling sides heads down things look a playable but with pressure on and bowlers heads up it's a minefield.

will they declare?
There is no need to...it's only D3.....keep Eng out...make them work and sweat

50 minutes before the close of play would have been nice to declare.....but a moot though as Ind will surely get bowled out before that

Batting plaudits to Ashwin at tea although sensible and useful work also by Ishant. The number 10 faced the penultimate over of the session from Moeen and calmly played out a maiden. Ensures India can continue batting after tea minimising the time for Burns and Sibley to prepare for their second dig. Ok, Olly?

It doesn't matter how long India bat in the final session but maybe give it another 25 minutes and then declare if not all out. The possibility of a (deserved) century for Ashwin may influence a declaration although, if so, he'll need to crack on.

I think I agree with KP_fan about India just batting on as long as they can to keep wearing England down. Tiring out bowlers early in a series often pays dividends later on. Though England will hope that rotating the seamers can mitigate that somewhat they really need Leach to play all four Tests and bowl a lot of overs.

On the bright side it will take a collapse of truly English proportions for them to lose within 3 days now...

So tea sees India still in... 420 ahead.  Think I did well to go shopping in that session. More your typical third innings postponement of the inevitable than anything too meaningful.

Not to decry the fine all round contribution from Ashwin : he's done a brilliant job , first with the ball , now with the bat to really make England suffer. They were cooked already I think ; but this extra ordeal has probably sapped any life left in them before they take on the herculean task of the second innings

Watching the latter part of that and I note the England body language has slipped - naturally enough. And to be fair to my current whipping boy , I think Moeen has bowled better in this innings - although I still reckon his figures are flattering him a fair bit with some "junk time" wickets. He has always been able to produce good balls : the trouble is he's bowled too many bad ones on a pitch which was always going to reward consistency .  Leach has had less luck - though I would also say I think he could have bowled better . Fatigue seems to have become a factor.

Two to go and an uncomfortable 90 minutes for England tonight ?  Be a good time for some solid Sibley/Burns stonewalling...

blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes. Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

I'm an enormous Foakes fan but that is a third missed chance it must be said. The stumping and catch off Broad when he was standing up were tough chances. That was a more straightforward one though Ashwin hitting it makes it look less regulation on second viewing.

Still a third chance missed though, if Buttler had missed three I'd be sure to point it out as an incessant advocate of picking you best keeper.

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Sadly yes. He's looked fallible as today has gone on.

I would look to give Stone a go soon. See if he can get Ishant for a second time.

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Am I allowed to point out for as good as he has kept and played, he's missed more opportunities in this test as Buttler did in the three preceding?
Or do missed stumpings/dropped catches, no matter how well you've kept, only apply to one England keeper...  

Yeah some sweet revenge for India after the way England put the foot on the throat last test. Absolutely nothing to be lost by batting on.

Not a lot more to be said, India have just straight outplayed England in every department.

This is a brilliant knock by Ashwin, not just for many of us in the tipping competition

Yep, not fun watching for an England fan now. India have been far better throughout.

Before the series England would probably have taken 1-1 going into the day-nighter though. It would be a big lift for England if Archer is available again in the series. Wood returning adds experience too and Anderson will almost certainly play T3.

If the pitch for T3 looks a Bunsen I'd expect Bairstow to return as well. Lawrence and Burns both need runs in the second dig.

What do we reckon a respectable effort in the second innings would be for England? Under big pressure with Ashwin bowling on this surface with men all around the bat I'd hope that they can dig in and make 200. I fear that might be optimistic though.

Leach gets Ishant. He deserves that fourth wicket, he's bowled well overall in this innings.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Am I allowed to point out for as good as he has kept and played, he's missed more opportunities in this test as Buttler did in the three preceding?
Or do missed stumpings/dropped catches, no matter how well you've kept, only apply to one England keeper...  

Ease off , eh , chief Buttler fan

I think we all agree Foakes is the best keeper (see the stumpings earlier , and general polish of his work) despite some errors late in this match ?

The real issue is how much actual difference a bit of extra class makes for the team. And weighing it against the batting.

Being the Eternal England Wicket Keeper Question , this one will run and run...

king_carlos wrote:Leach gets Ishant. He deserves that fourth wicket, he's bowled well overall in this innings.

Yeah nice to see Jack get another one. Still think he can improve on this effort ...much of the fizz seems to have been leached out of him as the innings went on...

king_carlos wrote:Yep, not fun watching for an England fan now. India have been far better throughout.

Before the series England would probably have taken 1-1 going into the day-nighter though. It would be a big lift for England if Archer is available again in the series. Wood returning adds experience too and Anderson will almost certainly play T3.

If the pitch for T3 looks a Bunsen I'd expect Bairstow to return as well. Lawrence and Burns both need runs in the second dig.

What do we reckon a respectable effort in the second innings would be for England? Under big pressure with Ashwin bowling on this surface with men all around the bat I'd hope that they can dig in and make 200. I fear that might be optimistic though.

Just try to bat as long as possible I think Carlos - not holding out much hope mind.

Buttler's keeping has improved out of sight but his batting at Test level is still far from dominant. Even in the last year when he has batted much better in Tests he's got the one century on a pretty good batting wicket. A very good ton it was against Pakistan but he's still not playing match changing or defining innings.

As alfie says it's a debate that will run and run. Foakes job in these three Tests is to try to push his case to get home Tests so he can then get opportunities to prove himself against the seamers as well.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Am I allowed to point out for as good as he has kept and played, he's missed more opportunities in this test as Buttler did in the three preceding?
Or do missed stumpings/dropped catches, no matter how well you've kept, only apply to one England keeper...  

When Foakes' rubbish keeping costs England a test match then get back to me. He's created chances that Buttler wouldn't have got near and a horrendous pitch to boot.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Sadly yes. He's looked fallible as today has gone on.

I would look to give Stone a go soon. See if he can get Ishant for a second time.

iNo suggestions that I may have slipped him a tenner for the tipping contest

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Am I allowed to point out for as good as he has kept and played, he's missed more opportunities in this test as Buttler did in the three preceding?
Or do missed stumpings/dropped catches, no matter how well you've kept, only apply to one England keeper...  

Ease off , eh , chief Buttler fan

I think we all agree Foakes is the best keeper (see the stumpings earlier , and general polish of his work) despite some errors late in this match ?

The real issue is how much actual difference a bit of extra class makes for the team. And weighing it against the batting.

Being the Eternal England Wicket Keeper Question , this one will run and run...

I am of course, just poking fun Alfie - but, the pitchforks would (and have been) out for Jos if/when similar has occured
As I said earlier in the test, being in the position of having two very good (imo) keeper batsmen for the test side is a good one to have! On evidence so far in test cricket, really Foakes AND Buttler should've been playing ahead of Lawrence all along anyways.

alfie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Leach gets Ishant. He deserves that fourth wicket, he's bowled well overall in this innings.

Yeah nice to see Jack get another one. Still think he can improve on this effort ...much of the fizz seems to have been leached out of him as the innings went on...

That 18 months with practically no cricket means the last month with a lot of overs will be catching up with him somewhat. He's never the most sprightly in the field but he has looked lead footed when chasing leather a few times today. Understandable and over all he has bowled well.

As we've all discussed a lot the England spin cupboard isn't the best so we do need to be realistic when they are in direct comparison with Ashwin.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This is a brilliant knock by Ashwin, not just for many of us in the tipping competition

Think we've all got him , though , have we not ?

He's played really well . Wouldn't begrudge him a century .

alfie wrote:So tea sees India still in... 420 ahead.  Think I did well to go shopping in that session. More your typical third innings postponement of the inevitable than anything too meaningful.

Not to decry the fine all round contribution from Ashwin : he's done a brilliant job , first with the ball , now with the bat to really make England suffer. They were cooked already I think ; but this extra ordeal has probably sapped any life left in them before they take on the herculean task of the second innings

Watching the latter part of that and I note the England body language has slipped - naturally enough. And to be fair to my current whipping boy , I think Moeen has bowled better in this innings - although I still reckon his figures are flattering him a fair bit with some "junk time" wickets. He has always been able to produce good balls : the trouble is he's bowled too many bad ones on a pitch which was always going to reward consistency .  Leach has had less luck - though I would also say I think he could have bowled better . Fatigue seems to have become a factor.

Two to go and an uncomfortable 90 minutes for England tonight ?  Be a good time for some solid Sibley/Burns stonewalling...

Alfie - I agree with you about Moeen's bowling having improved in this innings. As you also say, he's the England bowler who has had most of the luck going. However, I still feel uneasy that he's going to end this Test having taken more wickets than any other England bowler.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Am I allowed to point out for as good as he has kept and played, he's missed more opportunities in this test as Buttler did in the three preceding?
Or do missed stumpings/dropped catches, no matter how well you've kept, only apply to one England keeper...  

Ease off , eh , chief Buttler fan

I think we all agree Foakes is the best keeper (see the stumpings earlier , and general polish of his work) despite some errors late in this match ?

The real issue is how much actual difference a bit of extra class makes for the team. And weighing it against the batting.

Being the Eternal England Wicket Keeper Question , this one will run and run...

I am of course, just poking fun Alfie - but, the pitchforks would (and have been) out for Jos if/when similar has occured
As I said earlier in the test, being in the position of having two very good (imo) keeper batsmen for the test side is a good one to have! On evidence so far in test cricket, really Foakes AND Buttler should've been playing ahead of Lawrence all along anyways.

Yeah I know you're just having a little chip , Olly.

Actually England have threevery competent players in that role . Bairstow (remember him ? ) wasn't doing too much wrong behind the stumps when he got squeezed out as England wanted to blood Pope and Crawley.
The trouble is they sometimes mess the team around trying to juggle a multiplicity of resources...

With rotations all the go , extra options are handy.

Salute to Ashwin Fine century to add the cream to his wickets...

An excellent innings by Ashwin. I have a feeling he will be man of the match.

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:blimey ! Fatigue getting to Foakes.  Pretty ordinary stumping chance by his standards missed there...

Sadly yes. He's looked fallible as today has gone on.

I would look to give Stone a go soon. See if he can get Ishant for a second time.

iNo suggestions that I may have slipped him a tenner for the tipping contest

Not taking the credit for Ashiwn.

king_carlos wrote:An excellent innings by Ashwin. I have a feeling he will be man of the match.

Is there enough time in the game for Root and Mo to make double centuries?

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:So tea sees India still in... 420 ahead.  Think I did well to go shopping in that session. More your typical third innings postponement of the inevitable than anything too meaningful.

Not to decry the fine all round contribution from Ashwin : he's done a brilliant job , first with the ball , now with the bat to really make England suffer. They were cooked already I think ; but this extra ordeal has probably sapped any life left in them before they take on the herculean task of the second innings

Watching the latter part of that and I note the England body language has slipped - naturally enough. And to be fair to my current whipping boy , I think Moeen has bowled better in this innings - although I still reckon his figures are flattering him a fair bit with some "junk time" wickets. He has always been able to produce good balls : the trouble is he's bowled too many bad ones on a pitch which was always going to reward consistency .  Leach has had less luck - though I would also say I think he could have bowled better . Fatigue seems to have become a factor.

Two to go and an uncomfortable 90 minutes for England tonight ?  Be a good time for some solid Sibley/Burns stonewalling...

Alfie - I agree with you about Moeen's bowling having improved in this innings. As you also say, he's the England bowler who has had most of the luck going. However, I still feel uneasy that he's going to end this Test having taken more wickets than any other England bowler.

There are lies ; damned lies ; and statistics ...

Gooseberry wrote:

king_carlos wrote:An excellent innings by Ashwin. I have a feeling he will be man of the match.

Is there enough time in the game for Root and Mo to make double centuries?

Sibley could bat out a draw from here I reckon.

Siraj is batting well against the new ball now...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

I am of course, just poking fun Alfie - but, the pitchforks would (and have been) out for Jos if/when similar has occured
As I said earlier in the test, being in the position of having two very good (imo) keeper batsmen for the test side is a good one to have! On evidence so far in test cricket, really Foakes AND Buttler should've been playing ahead of Lawrence all along anyways.

Context dictates that similar has not occurred. Foakes' mistakes in the context of the match don't matter and when he starts making mistakes under actual pressure then i'll start to be critical. Buttler lost England the first test against the West Indies in the summer and it gets forgotten that his match winning 75 against Pakistan was only required because of his poor keeping in that match too.

Dropped catches like centuries are not equal.

Just ugly now. Englands heads dropping

The torture continues...more half chances not sticking...

Enough messing about. Stone to have a crack with a hard ball.  Maybe he could hit Ashwin on the bowling hand

That was a joke , just to be clear

Soul Requiem wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

I am of course, just poking fun Alfie - but, the pitchforks would (and have been) out for Jos if/when similar has occured
As I said earlier in the test, being in the position of having two very good (imo) keeper batsmen for the test side is a good one to have! On evidence so far in test cricket, really Foakes AND Buttler should've been playing ahead of Lawrence all along anyways.

Context dictates that similar has not occurred. Foakes' mistakes in the context of the match don't matter and when he starts making mistakes under actual pressure then i'll start to be critical. Buttler lost England the first test against the West Indies in the summer and it gets forgotten that his match winning 75 against Pakistan was only required because of his poor keeping in that match too.

Dropped catches like centuries are not equal.

Not all confirmation bias is equal either

I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.