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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by dynamark Tue 20 Apr 2021, 8:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Ben Leicester have been fortunate to find wealthy owners who saved us from a deal of trouble but they could not be accused of throwing stupid money around and disregarding the fans.The PL winning team was assembled from a bunch of frees ,has beens and cheap buys I think Ulloa was the top buy at about £9m.What they then did as some players moved on for big money was start throwing some of that money about to try to maintain position with varying degrees of success.The Chairman gives away free beer and cakes on his birthday and has given a lot to local organisations including a childrens hospital ,We have been very very lucky.
I think the German teams have a different voting structure where fans have a big say.

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Post by super_realist Wed 21 Jul 2021, 1:01 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Gylfi  pleasures.

When I heard it was a 31 year old, I assumed it would be chief moron Kyle Walker

Walker doesn't play for Everton.

It was before it was reported that it was an Everton player.

Subsequently found out that Everton only have two players who are 31. One is Delph who it has been confirmed is not the player, which leaves only one.

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Post by JAS Wed 21 Jul 2021, 1:12 pm

super_realist wrote:I deleted the app. Total waste of time.

So the logical conclusion is that Govt strategy is now in complete tatters with limited public support??. They've dropped the ball, burst it and chucked on the pile of bodies that are beginning to pile high again. To be fair to HMG they're governing a fat, lazy (I'd add selfish too) population most of whom are completely lacking in any sort of aptitude for taking personal responsibility?

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Post by super_realist Wed 21 Jul 2021, 1:27 pm

Well, the reason I deleted the app is because I'm single, in the top 1% of health and fitness, and I live on my own. I'm double jabbed and so is 65% of the population and 99% of the vulnerable population.
If I go to a shop, I have to wear a mask (despite there being no decent data they make much difference), so what point is there in an app when I could have been pinged due to the proximity of a neighbours property? If I have to self isolate, I still have to go to the shop, so life is literally no different to not isolating.

We as a population are about as protected as we will ever be.
Hospital admissions are not an issue and deaths are 1.7% of what they were at the peak despite infections being twice as high.
The back has been broken and there is nothing to be gained from isolating myself for a week or 10 days.It is no longer a pandemic, it is endemic, which means we are living with it.

Either the vaccine works, or it doesnt, and the data shows that it does. So what benefit is there in isolating if I've had a negative test and am double jabbed?

Bodies are not piling high again. The average for the last 5 days is 22, compared to 1283 a day at its peak.

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Post by westisbest Wed 21 Jul 2021, 7:08 pm

super_realist wrote:Well, the reason I deleted the app is because I'm single, in the top 1% of health and fitness, and I live on my own. I'm double jabbed and so is 65% of the population and 99% of the vulnerable population.
If I go to a shop, I have to wear a mask (despite there being no decent data they make much difference), so what point is there in an app when I could have been pinged due to the proximity of a neighbours property? If I have to self isolate, I still have to go to the shop, so life is literally no different to not isolating.

We as a population are about as protected as we will ever be.
Hospital admissions are not an issue and deaths are 1.7% of what they were at the peak despite infections being twice as high.
The back has been broken and there is nothing to be gained from isolating myself for a week or 10 days.It is no longer a pandemic, it is endemic, which means we are living with it.

Either the vaccine works, or it doesnt, and the data shows that it does. So what benefit is there in isolating if I've had a negative test and am double jabbed?

Bodies are not piling high again. The average for the last 5 days is 22, compared to 1283 a day at its peak.

When you put it like that, it does seem pointless.

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Post by pedro Wed 21 Jul 2021, 11:46 pm

Super, actually you don’t need to go the shop as shelves are empty.

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Post by pedro Wed 21 Jul 2021, 11:51 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Gylfi  pleasures.

When I heard it was a 31 year old, I assumed it would be chief moron Kyle Walker

Walker doesn't play for Everton.

It was before it was reported that it was an Everton player.

Subsequently found out that Everton only have two players who are 31. One is Delph who it has been confirmed is not the player, which leaves only one.
Well, Unesco doesn’t like Everton either.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 8:20 am

pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Gylfi  pleasures.

When I heard it was a 31 year old, I assumed it would be chief moron Kyle Walker

Walker doesn't play for Everton.

It was before it was reported that it was an Everton player.

Subsequently found out that Everton only have two players who are 31. One is Delph who it has been confirmed is not the player, which leaves only one.
Well, Unesco doesn’t like Everton either.

What am I missing? I don't get that.

Edit, ah, City of culture.

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Post by dynamark Thu 22 Jul 2021, 8:29 am

One of lifes great mysteries is how on earth Liverpool became a world heritage site in the first place . Bit of history for sure but its not exactly Machu Pichuu or the Taj Mahal

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 8:51 am

Was it world heritage or city of culture? World heritage seems absurd. Its just a city with an industrial past like many other cities in Britain.

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Post by dynamark Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:03 am

I think they did have the culture thing a few years ago ,music and all but this was one of about 30 sites in the UK.I get stonehenge or york minster but not liverpool waterfront.A good example of trying to preserve buildings.Near me is an old brick cinema it is the ugliest slab of a building you will ever see hurts your eyes but its listed and has never been redeveloped because of that.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:16 am

dynamark wrote:I think they did have the culture thing a few years ago ,music and all but this was one of about 30 sites in the UK.I get stonehenge or york minster but not liverpool waterfront.A good example of trying to preserve buildings.Near me is an old brick cinema it is the ugliest slab of a building you will ever see hurts your eyes but its listed and has never been redeveloped because of that.

Usually when an ugly listed building is up against planning it "mysteriously" burns down.

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Post by JAS Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:26 am

super_realist wrote:Was it world heritage or city of culture? World heritage seems absurd. Its just a city with an industrial past like many other cities in Britain.

It was allegedly a world heritage site and I'm finding myself in 100% agreement with you, completely absurd.

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Post by dynamark Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

No scousers on here then ?
Super these building do have a strange ability to spontaneously combust. Insurers and police always suspect arson but very hard to make it stick.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:45 am

They become "structurally unsafe" very conveniently.

I'm presuming councils have an arsonist on the payroll.

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Post by JAS Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:50 am

super_realist wrote:Well, the reason I deleted the app is because I'm single, in the top 1% of health and fitness, and I live on my own. I'm double jabbed and so is 65% of the population and 99% of the vulnerable population.
If I go to a shop, I have to wear a mask (despite there being no decent data they make much difference), so what point is there in an app when I could have been pinged due to the proximity of a neighbours property? If I have to self isolate, I still have to go to the shop, so life is literally no different to not isolating.

We as a population are about as protected as we will ever be.
Hospital admissions are not an issue and deaths are 1.7% of what they were at the peak despite infections being twice as high.
The back has been broken and there is nothing to be gained from isolating myself for a week or 10 days.It is no longer a pandemic, it is endemic, which means we are living with it.

Either the vaccine works, or it doesnt, and the data shows that it does. So what benefit is there in isolating if I've had a negative test and am double jabbed?

Bodies are not piling high again. The average for the last 5 days is 22, compared to 1283 a day at its peak.

I totally get that and your particular predicament and agree with most of the logic, part of the point I was trying to make is that their strategy is now completely incoherent and contradictory. Pinging and the need to self isolate should have ended with the rest of the restrictions on the 19th OR we should have kept some measures of reducing spread in place for now but just opened up more - School bubbles were another thing that went on Monday but with parents getting pinged and told to self isolate many were utterly confused about sending kids to school, luckily most schools have now broken up for the summer.

I would take slight issue with hospital admissions not being an issue. ICU admissions have gone from 120 to 620 in the past month, given that they lag infection numbers then there is still a substantial increase in that number to come, obviously not as high as Jan/Feb but not exactly insignificant. Not sure where you're getting the average of 22 from either, it's at least double that and climbing.

Anyways, I also get the point that it's better to let the virus spend itself now and have it run out of steam before the autumn. The one remaining concern I would have and it's a bit of a speculative one is that with a high, unmanaged infection rate there is a commensurately higher risk of a vaccine resistant variant developing. That to me would be the main reason for continuing to have at least some modicum of spread prevention in place. That's just one of those things things though that will be ridiculed as scaremongering....until it happens.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

From what I hear anecdotally of course is that the majority of people who are ending up in ICU are people refusing vaccines.

If that's the case then I don't care about them.

As for deaths, I got that from the governments own website.
I've taken another look and it seems that daily deaths are around 30-45, which is more than acceptable if you ask me.
There has to be a level that we accept and that seems a pretty reasonable figure in terms of how many people die per day of other causes. We need to stop obsessing with Covid and move on.

Also, vaccine evolution normally leads to them becoming less fatal over time in favour of higher transmission


Last edited by super_realist on Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:59 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by dynamark Thu 22 Jul 2021, 11:56 am

You would like to think that rules are changed very quickly to allow one pinged to continue if double jabbed possibly with a daily test.Even with one jab plus daily testing. We are now at 70% double jabbed !! my two kids both in 20s still have not had vaccine despite my threat to writ them out of the will .

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 12:02 pm

Also, the lateral flow tests are not remotely reliable. We need to ditch them too.

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Post by JAS Thu 22 Jul 2021, 12:32 pm

super_realist wrote:From what I hear anecdotally of course is that the majority of people who are ending up in ICU are people refusing vaccines.

If that's the case then I don't care about them.

As for deaths, I got that from the governments own website.
I've taken another look and it seems that daily deaths are around 30-45, which is more than acceptable if you ask me.
There has to be a level that we accept and that seems a pretty reasonable figure in terms of how many people die per day of other causes. We need to stop obsessing with Covid and move on.

Also, vaccine evolution normally leads to them becoming less fatal over time in favour of higher transmission

I agree that there has to be a bit of a mind shift away from mid pandemic to post pandemic thinking. Yes its with us and will stay with us (like flu, like measles etc) we also have vaccines that work and we have progressed and identified medical treatments that mitigate the worst symptoms now much better than standard treatments early in the pandemic. Yes there has to be an acceptance that some people will still die with Covid being implicated.

30-45 deaths is comparatively good for the infection levels we have but bear in mind deaths lag infections by about 3ish weeks so that current average is likely to be double that by mid August and probably higher by the end of August. I am curious though about where your acceptable would turn to unacceptable so 30-45 is ok...what isn't? what would be your red line? and what if we arrived there in say 2 months time?

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Post by McLaren Thu 22 Jul 2021, 12:40 pm

What I don't think super places enough emphasis on is what pressure the current infection rate puts on the NHS. You have every level of interaction due to covid from a call to a GP to ending up in ICU. All these interactions no matter how small are workload not budgeted for in terms of time or staff.

Appointments, beds, staff levels etc were on a knife edge without covid. Given the under investment in the NHS over the last 10 years the UK does not have the slack in the system to opt for a laissez faire attitude to covid infection control. In the coming weeks and months we will see that even a population that has a decent level of vaccination will produce enough cases that require at least some medical attention to break the system.
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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 1:10 pm

Mac, the total number of people in hospital with Covid is 2.74% of hospital beds.
At the peak for a period of about 6-8 weeks it was increasing bed occupancy by about 1.5% of total available bed per day.
It's not remotely under stress at the present time, not will it be under the current projections.

Also, the current infection rate doesn't equal actually being ill. In most cases it is simply a positive test and very minor symptoms.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 1:20 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:From what I hear anecdotally of course is that the majority of people who are ending up in ICU are people refusing vaccines.

If that's the case then I don't care about them.

As for deaths, I got that from the governments own website.
I've taken another look and it seems that daily deaths are around 30-45, which is more than acceptable if you ask me.
There has to be a level that we accept and that seems a pretty reasonable figure in terms of how many people die per day of other causes. We need to stop obsessing with Covid and move on.

Also, vaccine evolution normally leads to them becoming less fatal over time in favour of higher transmission

I agree that there has to be a bit of a mind shift away from mid pandemic to post pandemic thinking. Yes its with us and will stay with us (like flu, like measles etc) we also have vaccines that work and we have progressed and identified medical treatments that mitigate the worst symptoms now much better than standard treatments early in the pandemic. Yes there has to be an acceptance that some people will still die with Covid being implicated.

30-45 deaths is comparatively good for the infection levels we have but bear in mind deaths lag infections by about 3ish weeks so that current average is likely to be double that by mid August and probably higher by the end of August. I am curious though about where your acceptable would turn to unacceptable so 30-45 is ok...what isn't? what would be your red line? and what if we arrived there in say 2 months time?  

JAS, daily death rates are not increasing anywhere near the same rate as before.
On April 1 average deaths were 33 and today its 38. In the same time period positive tests have gone from 3763 on April 1 to 40,000 on 19th July.
Deaths have gone up by  a tiny 13% with a corresponding increase of 9x in infections.

As for where my "red line" is, well that's not my problem is it? But what we do know is that zero covid deaths is a preposterous aim and if we permit up to 30,000 flu deaths per annum with no restrictions then surely there's an argument for something similar with Covid? So around 250 a day (based on a 4 month flu period) , and with a better vaccine and considerably better uptake why would it get to that level?

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 5:36 pm

McLaren wrote:What I don't think super places enough emphasis on is what pressure the current infection rate puts on the NHS. You have every level of interaction due to covid from a call to a GP to ending up in ICU. All these interactions no matter how small are workload not budgeted for in terms of time or staff.

Appointments, beds, staff levels etc were on a knife edge without covid. Given the under investment in the NHS over the last 10 years the UK does not have the slack in the system to opt for a laissez faire attitude to covid infection control. In the coming weeks and months we will see that even a population that has a decent level of vaccination will produce enough cases that require at least some medical attention to break the system.

Mac, the majority of people getting infected with Covid aren't finding out by being at the doctor, they are either testing themselves or they are visiting a test centre.

Why didn't the infections 3 months ago not cause the NHS to topple? We keep hearing "wait three weeks and we will see" well we have waited three weeks, bloody loads of times and the rate of infection to hospitalisation has dramatically reduced and is simply not resulting in a crippling of the NHS the way it was in January.

You might want to live in perpetual lockdown, but there really isn't any need. 99% of all vulnerable people are double jabbed and 98% of people who died of Covid were in this vulnerable bracket.
Who exactly are you trying to protect now?

We have a vaccine which whilst not 100% effective is more efficacious then anyone thought possible.
Those who require protection from Covid are as protected as they ever can be.
Our infection rate reached a new peak in the last few weeks and is drastically reducing, and hospitalisation and deaths is a fraction of what it was.

Will we see a resurgence in infections and possibly a small rise in hospitalisation and possible death? Yes, but we have to get on with life. There's more to living than bloody Covid and if other countries (with less vaccination) can open up with minimal increase then what's your problem?

Do you really want to be as paranoid as Australia when they have shut down entire regions because ONE OLD MAN died? 🤣 🤣

Remember the whole purpose of lockdown? Protect the NHS. Well, 2.5% of beds are taken at a time when infections are almost as high as they ever have been, so that's succeeded.
I think however that you're just trying to redifine what the NHS being under strain means now.

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Post by beninho Thu 22 Jul 2021, 6:41 pm

Do people really believe that shops are empty because of the covid app? For weeks talks have been about the impact of brexit on lorry drivers and its knock on impact. To cover it as something to do with the app is bizarre, yet people are seemingly accepting it.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:01 pm

Presumably something to do with it Ben even though I don't believe shops are empty, maybe just a shortage of a few things.

If 615,000 people got pinged last week, don't you think a decent amount would be involved in distribution?
Furthermore, if it was Brexit, why are the  shelves supposedly more empty this week than at any time since we left the EU? chin

We've left Europe, don't be the last Japanese soldier in the Jungle, not even Starmer has tried to explain use that theory Ben

BP were reporting a lack of drivers in able to deliver petrol and diesel and those refined products are produced here, what's that got to do with Brexit?
Even supermarkets aren't blaming Brexit.

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Post by beninho Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:26 pm

It's a lack of drivers. Delivering between UK plants makes no difference. We had plenty of reports last month about haulage firms and the impact it will have on shops. Then a month later, we have shortage in shops. Some companies say its the impact of both covid and brexit. Lorry drivers have a proportion of Europe drivers as well as an aging workforce. European drivers were propping it up. I'm not sure lorry driving meets the new visa requirements for income. And just to add, my dad is a transport manager.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hgv-shortage-brexit-covid-haribo-b1877588.html%3famp
This was 3 weeks back, plenty more reports in June. This has all been coming.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:29 pm

That does fail to take into account the 30,000 HGV tests that didn't happen last year because of the pandemic.

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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:29 pm

Yes, partly due to a lack of drivers who have been pinged by an app.


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Post by super_realist Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:31 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:That does fail to take into account the 30,000 HGV tests that didn't happen last year because of the pandemic.

Indeed, testing centres are not working full time. They are still partly furloughed.

This whole self isolation stuff is just pointless at the moment.

The BP issue hasn't been a problem until this week, so again, what's that got to do with Brexit? I don't blame if people are leaving the driving trade, it looks an awful job to be in, and they are among the least healthy people in the population.

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Post by beninho Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:41 pm

Just to confirm, do neither of you, haulage experts, think that brexit has had an impact on the lorry driver shortage in the uk?

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 22 Jul 2021, 7:51 pm

If only I worked in logistics for a massive multinational.

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Post by beninho Thu 22 Jul 2021, 8:00 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:If only I worked in logistics for a massive multinational.

I And you do or don't think brexit has impacted the numbers of lorry drivers? It seems the the RHA believes its had an impact.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 22 Jul 2021, 8:18 pm

It's had a small impact but these are global industrial issues being exasperated by the current isolation guidelines. The ageing workforce is the biggest problem combined with it being an unattractive job prospect for young people. It's easy to blame Brexit but this has been a growing problem for many years.

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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 6:42 am

beninho wrote:Just to confirm, do neither of you, haulage experts, think that brexit has had an impact on the lorry driver shortage in the uk?

Youre not a haulage expert either just because your dad worked as a transport manager.
I am not an expert in what my dad did for a living, so what makes you think you are?

No o e claimed that Brexit might not be a factor, even although there has been no problem at all this year so far in real terms and you were the one pretending that covid app isn't anything to do with this, despite non Brexit related companies like BP and supermarkets stating that the app pinging is resulting in fewer drivers available for work.

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Post by beninho Fri 23 Jul 2021, 7:41 am

1 - I've never claimed to be an expert. But having family involved in a trade or job, gives you an idea of problems faced.

2- it seems that both seemingly agree with me, that brexit is an issue towards the lack of lorry drivers in this country, and it's subsequent impact on deliveries. Haulage firms have said app 15k European drivers were lost due to the impact of covid and brexit. So a smaller pool of available drivers l.

3- My reading is that this year there has been a lot of problems for haulage firms. The pay increases for drivers being one of them. Brought on by the lack of drivers.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:02 am

beninho wrote:Do people really believe that shops are empty because of the covid app? For weeks talks have been about the impact of brexit on lorry drivers and its knock on impact. To cover it as something to do with the app is bizarre, yet people are seemingly accepting it.

This was your original comment remember, neither of us are agreeing with that. The major contributing factor is drivers having to isolate as well as young people not finding it an attractive job to do, Brexit however is only having a small impact on the consumer side of things.

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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:25 am

beninho wrote:1 - I've never claimed to be an expert. But having family involved in a trade or job, gives you an idea of problems faced.

2- it seems that both seemingly agree with me, that brexit is an issue towards the lack of lorry drivers in this country, and it's subsequent impact on deliveries. Haulage firms have said app 15k European drivers were lost due to the impact of covid and brexit.  So a smaller pool of available drivers l.

3- My reading is that this year there has been a lot of problems for haulage firms. The pay increases for drivers being one of them. Brought on by the lack of drivers.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that this is in any way due to the covid app despite companies involved directly stating this is the biggest issue this week.

You really need to just accept Brexit and move on. You sound like Jo Swinson


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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:27 am

I see the offence archaeologists are out again. Ridiculous that the Olympic opening director is fired for a 23 year old joke.

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Post by beninho Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:49 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:Do people really believe that shops are empty because of the covid app? For weeks talks have been about the impact of brexit on lorry drivers and its knock on impact. To cover it as something to do with the app is bizarre, yet people are seemingly accepting it.

This was your original comment remember, neither of us are agreeing with that. The major contributing factor is drivers having to isolate as well as young people not finding it an attractive job to do, Brexit however is only having a small impact on the consumer side of things.

But you accept that in June and before, companies were talking about the lack of drivers leading to food shortages and delivery problems, caused by covid and brexit? You can find all the reports and letters to the government asking for restrictions for drivers. Now a month later, what we were told would happen has happened its all down to an app which has been running for about a year or so.

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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:55 am

I did acknowledge that Brexit plays a part, but your refusal to see that this has happened in one week when since June there has been no such shortage that this cannot be attributed to Brexit.

We have never had a point at which 600,000plus people have been pinged in ONE WEEK.
That's the point here. Now drop talking about bloody Brexit will you. It's done and you can't turn it back.


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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:56 am

beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:Do people really believe that shops are empty because of the covid app? For weeks talks have been about the impact of brexit on lorry drivers and its knock on impact. To cover it as something to do with the app is bizarre, yet people are seemingly accepting it.

This was your original comment remember, neither of us are agreeing with that. The major contributing factor is drivers having to isolate as well as young people not finding it an attractive job to do, Brexit however is only having a small impact on the consumer side of things.

But you accept that in June and before, companies were talking about the lack of drivers leading to food shortages and delivery problems, caused by covid and brexit? You can find all the reports and letters to the government asking for restrictions for drivers. Now a month later, what we were told would happen has happened its all down to an app which has been running for about a year or so.

Perhaps you should look up the numbers being told to isolate by said app before posting. All you ever do is read a headline and delve no further than that, the easing of restrictions has led to unprecedented numbers of people isolating which has had an impact on driver numbers. You can blame Brexit all you want Ben but it won't make it a reality.

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Post by dynamark Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:57 am

Call me unobservant but I have been in a couple of shops and garages this week and I didnt see any empty shelves or empty fuel pumps.As usual the time we will get shortages is when the nutters start hoarding because they read about it in the paper.Business gets issues every day its all part of the deal

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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 8:59 am

We have shortages in all sorts of industries. For example fruit picking, but that doesn't mean that people aren't off work due to the app does it?

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Post by JAS Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:20 am

super_realist wrote:We have shortages in all sorts of industries. For example fruit picking, but that doesn't mean that people aren't off work due to the app does it?

After having just argued that Brexit hadn’t much effect on haulage staff shortages, it was mostly to do with Covid…. staff shortages in fruit picking probably isn’t your next best choice of specialist subject :-p

Also I couldn’t be arsed replying to your oddly rather defensive reply yesterday.
In spite of your cherry picked statistics, Covid deaths are rising, not like last year in comparison but they are steadily climbing and you (or I) have NO idea where the peak will be. You seem to be asserting that because the previous correlation between Infection rates hospitalisations and deaths no longer holds true then we should through all caution to the wind. The link hasn’t been broken, it’s just shifted to a different ratio. It remains to be seen how many deaths that will actually mean, it remains to be seen how much further strain will be put on the health service.

Your raising of flu deaths does indeed raise an interesting point. Last winter saw the lowest incidence of flu on record. So….doesn’t that indicate that many of the measures used to curtail Covid has also had an effect on reducing other airborne respiratory infections? Therefore (within reason) don’t you think things like mask wearing, social distancing and basic hand sanitisation provision should become the norm in indoor settings, particularly retail over the winter months? If that were to cut average flu deaths by half each winter wouldn’t that be a good thing?

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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:22 am

My point was that if we have had staff shortages since the inception of Brexit across all indistries why has it taken to this week to see so called shortages which also coincided with the highest pinging of the isolation app?

As for your mask raising analogy, please look at what happened when we started wearing masks, infections were far higher than when we simply used social distancing. If masks are so important, why are we not required to wear ones which meet any sort of standard? Do you not realise that we are supposed to change masks every four hours? How many people have ever done that? How many people wear a mask that meets any sort of scientific standard?


All we are doing is swapping one fatal illness for another, and given we have vaccines for both and don't seem to give a toss about the fatality rate for flu, why are we so interested all of a sudden in fewer people dying of Covid?

You're right that neither of us know what the death rate will be, but the data shows us where the trend is going and how much less of an impact covid is having on hospital admissions and death.

Bear in mind that 1650 die of all causes in the UK every single day. We need to get Covid and covid deaths into some sort of perspective. It is not even close to being a leading cause of death in the UK anymore, and whilst some precautions still need to exist, and vulnerable people need to take care its not necessary for this to apply to groups of people who simply aren't likely to be affected by it.

Like Brexit, it's time to just move on.

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Post by super_realist Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:31 am

dynamark wrote:Call me unobservant but I have been in a couple of shops and garages this week and I didnt see any empty shelves or empty fuel pumps.As usual the time we will get shortages is when the nutters start hoarding because they read about it in the paper.Business gets issues every day its all part of the deal

I went to the supermarket this morning. No different to normal.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:35 am

JAS wrote:

Your raising of flu deaths does indeed raise an interesting point. Last winter saw the lowest incidence of flu on record. So….doesn’t that indicate that many of the measures used to curtail Covid has also had an effect on reducing other airborne respiratory infections? Therefore (within reason) don’t you think things like mask wearing, social distancing and basic hand sanitisation provision should become the norm in indoor settings, particularly retail over the winter months? If that were to cut average flu deaths by half each winter wouldn’t that be a good thing?

I think you'll find a lot of people will carry on with mask wearing and shops should continue to provide hand sanitisers on entry. In hospitality environments I can't see it being a feasible long term option and isn't something i'd want to see carried on anyway. I'm still wearing my mask, reverted back to the actual medical mask and have found a huge improvement with my asthma as a result, the fabric ones while more fashionable do put more strain on your breathing.

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Post by McLaren Fri 23 Jul 2021, 11:09 am

JAS wrote:You seem to be asserting that because the previous correlation between Infection rates hospitalisations and deaths no longer holds true then we should through all caution to the wind. The link hasn’t been broken, it’s just shifted to a different ratio. It remains to be seen how many deaths that will actually mean, it remains to be seen how much further strain will be put on the health service.

I have tried several times to point this out to Super, but he doesn't seem to understand it.


And you can see that in his response

Super wrote: We need to get Covid and covid deaths into some sort of perspective. It is not even close to being a leading cause of death in the UK anymore, and whilst some precautions still need to exist, and vulnerable people need to take care its not necessary for this to apply to groups of people who simply aren't likely to be affected by it.

It isn't about raw death numbers at this point it is about keeping your health system running. You have two options, massively increase the capacity of the NHS or continue to mitigate covid cases. The NHS has no room in the system for any COVID cases as it stands.
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Post by dynamark Fri 23 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

JAS and Soops both good points .No reason to stop sanitizer,masks if you want to,wash hands and a bit of social distance wont do any harm.I was thinking population close on 70 million average age about 80 gives you 800,000 ish passing every year.You dont die from flu or covid you die from other issues which those infections affect.Im going out for a beer tonight but it isnt going to do my health any favours.

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Post by JAS Fri 23 Jul 2021, 12:37 pm

Agreed it’s time to move on Supes but move on taking on board the lessons we’ve learnt and encourage people to apply them, be more aware and take more personal responsibility. I do that I’m assuming you do that, from his posts it sounds like Soul does that.

I happen to think that for advanced well off societies such as ours we shouldn’t be accepting the levels of unneccessary deaths that we do from the likes of flu but as you frequently point out (and I largely agree) we have other issues that we should also be dealing with better (obesity, smoking, alcohol consumption etc). In all of those areas there must be a level of self awareness and personal responsibility rather than government dictat. Governments should encourage and facilitate and in times of crisis like the past year, support and yes that may have to mean temporary seemingly draconian controls. Let’s be honest here, Covid 19 was not a one off, there will be others, I hope we’ll be better prepared for the next one than we were for this one.

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