Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

Ben Leicester have been fortunate to find wealthy owners who saved us from a deal of trouble but they could not be accused of throwing stupid money around and disregarding the fans.The PL winning team was assembled from a bunch of frees ,has beens and cheap buys I think Ulloa was the top buy at about £9m.What they then did as some players moved on for big money was start throwing some of that money about to try to maintain position with varying degrees of success.The Chairman gives away free beer and cakes on his birthday and has given a lot to local organisations including a childrens hospital ,We have been very very lucky.
I think the German teams have a different voting structure where fans have a big say.

[McLaren]

Jas

I ask again, what do you expect Labour to do? It is now clear that in England a party has to offer right wing social policies (and probably fiscal austerity) to win an election. If Labour cave in and offer that then they are not really Labour anymore.

You are deluding yourself if you think a set of left wing policies can win again. And we are now seeing that the centre left is dead as well. So centrism and left wingism are gone in England. We have to accept this.

a) cant get their message across or worse b) they haven't really decided what their actual message/vision is.

It doesn't matter what Labours message is as long as it is progressive, socialist, fiscally expansive (insert any other sensible position). Those ideas are dead in this generation of UK (English politics).

Dominic cummings posted this earlier on twitter

When pundits who ‘explained’ why Vote Leave’s plan to realign politics was mad/stupid/impossible now give post hoc ‘explanations’ for why it’s all so logical/inevitable … ignore their babble… Pundits = noise not signal. Eg ‘the centre ground’ DOES NOT EXIST, it’s pundit fiction

Ignore the bit about writing off the pundits, and he is correct about the centre ground not existing. He just forgot to add that the left is also dead. Brexit, May then Boris back up his idea that the vote leave right wing ideas are now the most popular politics by far among the English electorate.


You need to abandon the idea that Labour should pander more to the working class because what the working class, and much of the middle class, are asking for has nothing to do with what Labour is all about. There is no point in labour becoming Tory light just to win elections.

[dynamark]

Hard to see where a labour party goes other than home for lunch.Traditional labour voters went to UKIP/BREXIT and havent gone back because Tories delivered brexit . Starmer is balancing on a narrow ledge with nothing either side.

[Soul Requiem]

I for one am truly devastated that the Labour party has capitulated, it's almost as if it's a bad idea having a personality vacuum as leader. They had the easiest of open goals when you factor in the constant smear campaigns regarding Covid-19 and Brexit but Starmer's incompetence has seen them lose ground.

[McLaren]

Soul

Starmer is exactly what people like me want in a labour leader. Social justice is at the core of who he is. Just check out his CV as a barrister. He does not have a personality vacuum (as if that really matters anyway) he just doesn't stand for what the majority of the English want.

And if you had understood my previous post you would know there isn't an open goal. Due to the current popularity of right wing politics there is no chance of Labour winning anything. The nation is not crying out for traditional or modern Labour ideas. So no open goal.

[Soul Requiem]

What you want in a party leader means next to nothing Mac, you're not a swing voter so what does it matter?

Yes it does matter that he's a personality vacuum as the results and recent polling show, a lot of people vote for the person rather than the policies as a certain Boris Johnson perfectly highlights. The Labour will continue it's slide until it stops making excuses about right wing popularity and addresses the issues within the party.

[superflyweight]

England, like Scotland, is now seeing people more and more influenced by thoughts of nationalism rather than policy when choosing who to vote for. It's understandable that people left behind by globalisation and late-period capitalism would turn to something basic and reductive like nationalism - doesn't require a huge amount of thinking and the exceptionalism it promotes lends the believer a sense of worth that they might not otherwise have. It's a quasi-religion.

Until this passes, all any opposition can do is try to stay sane.

[JAS]

What you want in a party leader means next to nothing Mac, you're not a swing voter so what does it matter?

Yes it does matter that he's a personality vacuum as the results and recent polling show, a lot of people vote for the person rather than the policies as a certain Boris Johnson perfectly highlights. The Labour will continue it's slide until it stops making excuses about right wing popularity and addresses the issues within the party.

I don't think he's a personality vacuum at all, I think he's clever, articulate & forensic with a great sense of fairness. Unfortunately that's clearly not what the electorate want, they much prefer a lying bumbling baffoon that has promised to get certain things done. As shown in the 2019 electorate you have to have a SIMPLE, CLEAR message, whether it's true or possible is not important (to get elected), it just has to sound plausible. For all his faults Johnson knows that and sticks to it. Like in 2019 Labours message is far too nuanced, Brexit was/is a hugely complex issue but trying to get the majority of the electorate to understand all the intricacies of the problems it generates is a complete and utter fools errand.

Regarding the Covid influence that seems to be even more bizarre, you'd think any peacetime prime minister presiding over 127k deaths would be hanging from the tower after 12 months (Corbyn most certainly would have been had he won in 2019 - there would probably have been significantly less deaths - PHE & not Deloitte/Serco would have run Test & trace but he'd have carried the blame for ALL of anything that went wrong). I'd draw the analogy of soiled trousers again - the Tories are repeating to the hilt vaccine success vaccine success. That's like congratulating yourself on acquiring world class wet wipes to clear up your soiled pants....completely ignoring that you shat your pants in the first place.

Mac is right, working class England has taken a rather significant turn right (there is no other direct explanation for the Tory vote increasing last night given the 2 above paragraphs) That does leave Labour high and dry, irrespective of Starmer's capabilities.

It's a long rebuild from here which may or may not be the lowest ebb, The other thing to consider is that the Tories have had to embrace a dose of Socialism to keep the country going, the problems for them will start again when they have to turn the money taps off again. We shall see, the important thing meantime for the Labour party is that they don't start acting like trigger happy Chelsea and keep throwing the leader under a bus after a poor result that's not how to rebuild.

[JAS]

England, like Scotland, is now seeing people more and more influenced by thoughts of nationalism rather than policy when choosing who to vote for.  It's understandable that people left behind by globalisation and late-period capitalism would turn to something basic and reductive like nationalism - doesn't require a huge amount of thinking and the exceptionalism it promotes lends the believer a sense of worth that they might not otherwise have.  It's a quasi-religion.  

Until this passes, all any opposition can do is try to stay sane.      

Pretty much bang on Super

[Soul Requiem]

You never know one day instead of the constant excuses Labour and it's voters may take accountability for their own poor performances, I doubt it but until that happens the descent into insignificance will continue.

[McLaren]

Are we in a rare position of general agreement on here?

In that labour are screwed if England has gone full on right wing, it's just some think starmer could have done a little more.

I am just not sure how as a labour voter to take accountability. Should I have become more right wing?

[Duty281]

Mac is right, working class England has taken a rather significant turn right (there is no other direct explanation for the Tory vote increasing last night given the 2  above  paragraphs) That does leave Labour  high and dry, irrespective of Starmer's capabilities.

Tory vote increased because of two main factors:

1) They hoovered up the old UKIP vote.
2) Many Labour voters stayed at home, presumably because they're not enthused by their party.

The Lib Dems are managing to rebuild (slowly), Labour are not. Until Labour start selling a positive vision of what a Labour government will look like, they will continue to go backwards.

[JAS]

Mac is right, working class England has taken a rather significant turn right (there is no other direct explanation for the Tory vote increasing last night given the 2  above  paragraphs) That does leave Labour  high and dry, irrespective of Starmer's capabilities.

Tory vote increased because of two main factors:

1) They hoovered up the old UKIP vote.
2) Many Labour voters stayed at home, presumably because they're not enthused by their party.

The Lib Dems are managing to rebuild (slowly), Labour are not. Until Labour start selling a positive vision of what a Labour government will look like, they will continue to go backwards.

1) Certainly happened and that on its own was enough 2) could be a bit more debatable (i.e. stayed at home? or switched allegiance? - didn't check/compare turnout so not sure)

Wouldn't be hard for the Libdems to start rebuilding from their current low base. Swinson (remember her) was pretty much as electorally calamitous as Corbyn and Davey seems half decent and sensible replacement.
For a smaller party that's not naturally the main opposition, the perception can be that a rebuild is clearly underway. For one of the big 2 there's more work to be done on site clearing before new foundations can be laid.

[Duty281]

Mac is right, working class England has taken a rather significant turn right (there is no other direct explanation for the Tory vote increasing last night given the 2  above  paragraphs) That does leave Labour  high and dry, irrespective of Starmer's capabilities.

Tory vote increased because of two main factors:

1) They hoovered up the old UKIP vote.
2) Many Labour voters stayed at home, presumably because they're not enthused by their party.

The Lib Dems are managing to rebuild (slowly), Labour are not. Until Labour start selling a positive vision of what a Labour government will look like, they will continue to go backwards.

1) Certainly happened and that on its own was enough 2) could be a bit more debatable (i.e. stayed at home? or switched allegiance? - didn't check/compare turnout so not sure)

Wouldn't be hard for the Libdems to start rebuilding from their current low base. Swinson (remember her) was pretty much as electorally calamitous as Corbyn and Davey seems half decent and sensible replacement.
For a smaller party that's not naturally the main opposition, the perception can be that a rebuild is clearly underway. For one of the big 2 there's more work to be done on site clearing before new foundations can be laid.

Yes, but these elections are representing swings from 2017-now and, in some cases, 2016-now (as 2016/2017 was the year these seats/councillors were last up for election). While Labour did decently in 2016, they had an atrocious return in the 2017 LEs, and to fall further from that low base in 2017 is very worrying for them.

The main point is there is a non-right wing vote out there to be won, as clearly evidenced by the LDs and Greens making gains, but Labour are failing to capture it, it isn't just a case of the electorate turning 'right'.

[JAS]

More of a concerns the potential result in Scotland, an SNP overall majority would really put the cat among the pigeons. That's something I really really don't want but it does fascinate me on several levels
1. Why there is such a difference in left/right balance in Scotland (and Wales to a point) compared to England?
2. How does a Nationalist Party manage to be left of centre?
3. How does the SNP make a better fist of being left of centre than Labour?

[dynamark]

Early numbers suggest SNP may not be so comfortable plus bad weather in Scotland may have had an impact.Maybe Hadrian was right

[superflyweight]

More of a concerns the potential result in Scotland, an SNP overall majority would really put the cat among the pigeons. That's something I really really don't want but it does fascinate me on several levels
1. Why there is such a difference in left/right balance in Scotland (and Wales to a point) compared to England?
2. How does a Nationalist Party manage to be left of centre?
3. How does the SNP make a better fist of being left of centre than Labour?

Are they left of centre? Can't think of any major policies which would be deemed to be anything other than centrist. Part of their (albeit limited) economic policy for a post independent Scotland is based on a lower rate of Corporation Tax than RUK.

[George1507]

More of a concerns the potential result in Scotland, an SNP overall majority would really put the cat among the pigeons. That's something I really really don't want but it does fascinate me on several levels
1. Why there is such a difference in left/right balance in Scotland (and Wales to a point) compared to England?
2. How does a Nationalist Party manage to be left of centre?
3. How does the SNP make a better fist of being left of centre than Labour?

1. The Conservative Party was the dominant political force in Scotland from WWI until the late 1950s. Labour began to gain ground because they promised to listen to what Scots wanted, at a time when the Tories were becoming Westminster centric. Labour hasn't really delivered anything much, so in the 1980s nationalism began to emerge. The Conservatives are Unionists, so to differentiate themselves, the national parties had to be left of Tories, which at the time were centrist and slightly right of centrist. The SNP especially really gained traction at a time when Scotland were voting in Labour mps to a Conservative Westminster, mostly (in the Thatcher years). Continually being at odds with the UK government seemed to spur on the SNP and alienated a lot of Scots.

2. There is not a big enough conservative (small c) vote to warrant competing with Tories, so the SNP is a bit further left.

3. Labour would be a threat to the SNP but they imploded, lost their policies (what are they standing for?) and became London focused. So they've been binned off too. If they could ever get their act together, the Libdems would be both allies and opponents for the SNP. EU membership, self determinism, it's all common ground. Liberals and Libdems have always been a presence in Scotland.

So the choice in Scotland is really between Unionists, which means Tory, or nationalist which means SNP. Labour is pretty much irrelevant now, especially since financial services has largely displaced metal bashing as the main industry.

[westisbest]

Hard luck beninho. Looked gone a few weeks ago.
To finish the season within one point of safety was a good achievement.

Another couple of games and you may well have done it.

[beninho]

Getting relegated wasn't unexpected. If only we hadn't lost the first 7 games! But we weren't really outclassed overall. Hopefully we've made sone money, and can maybe have a crack at promotion next year.

[beninho]

Saw two interesting political notes today, Worthing swung to Labour, as did Chippibg Norton.

[beninho]

And Lozza Fox.. haha what a tw@t

[dynamark]

Contact 606 golf for your political breaking news.Labour reshuffle as predicted Deputy leader,Dodds and wet Jon Ashworth all on the move.Large hole currently being dug by the labour leaders.

[JAS]

Contact 606 golf for your political breaking news.Labour reshuffle as predicted Deputy leader,Dodds and wet Jon Ashworth all on the move.Large hole currently being dug by the labour leaders.

In retrospect, they've been in a deep hole (of their own making) since 2010, somebody needs to give the leader a ladder not a spade or rather, the leader needs to find a ladder and tell all those offering spades to eff off!!

[JAS]

More of a concerns the potential result in Scotland, an SNP overall majority would really put the cat among the pigeons. That's something I really really don't want but it does fascinate me on several levels
1. Why there is such a difference in left/right balance in Scotland (and Wales to a point) compared to England?
2. How does a Nationalist Party manage to be left of centre?
3. How does the SNP make a better fist of being left of centre than Labour?

1. The Conservative Party was the dominant political force in Scotland from WWI until the late 1950s. Labour began to gain ground because they promised to listen to what Scots wanted, at a time when the Tories were becoming Westminster centric. Labour hasn't really delivered anything much, so in the 1980s nationalism began to emerge. The Conservatives are Unionists, so to differentiate themselves, the national parties had to be left of Tories, which at the time were centrist and slightly right of centrist. The SNP especially really gained traction at a time when Scotland were voting in Labour mps to a Conservative Westminster, mostly (in the Thatcher years). Continually being at odds with the UK government seemed to spur on the SNP and alienated a lot of Scots.

2. There is not a big enough conservative (small c) vote to warrant competing with Tories, so the SNP is a bit further left.

3. Labour would be a threat to the SNP but they imploded, lost their policies (what are they standing for?) and became London focused. So they've been binned off too. If they could ever get their act together, the Libdems would be both allies and opponents for the SNP. EU membership, self determinism, it's all common ground. Liberals and Libdems have always been a presence in Scotland.

So the choice in Scotland is really between Unionists, which means Tory, or nationalist which means SNP. Labour is pretty much irrelevant now, especially since financial services has largely displaced metal bashing as the main industry.

There's a lot of truth in that synopsis George. Wasn't the old SNP in the 60's fairly right wing (so at the time of Wilson effectively anti Westminster). At one point in the 60's did they even consider an IRA like paramilitary approach?

The big swing left came in the 80s when frustration with industrial vandalism by Westminster Tories boiled over and the realisation that whilst Labour could dominate the amount of Scottish seats, against a huge Thatcher majority it meant absolutely nothing. I remember them having over 50 at one point, The previously moderate Jim Sillars defected first to his own creation of SLP then eventually the SNP and ended up taunting his former colleagues by calling them the "feeble fifty". That struck a cord with many. Pits, shipyards and factories shut and resentment grew. Then later on further reinforcing that disenfranchisement were things like Scotland becoming the poll tax guinea pigs.

Opportunistically or otherwise, the SNP realised that the working class vote was there for the taking then, they took it and have largely held it. In a sense what happened to Labour in Scotland over 2-3 decades ago in now happening to them in England only in England it has taken the conduit of various incarnations of the Nigel Farage Party to hoover up the disaffected working class and deliver them to the Tories.

[dynamark]

a few scots here
If the snp said what the currency would be border arrangements finance taxes EU or not nhs funding what would the INDY vote be then maybe 25/75 ?

[JAS]

a few scots here
If the snp said what the currency would be border arrangements finance taxes EU or not nhs funding what would the INDY vote be then maybe 25/75 ?

Don't know Dyna, it's gerrymandered so Scots currently not living in Scotland don't get a say as most of them (like me for example) would say NO to independence. For all it's faults the UK is better together. Tearing away from 40 years worth of ties to Europe (however desirable or otherwise to some) is clearly now going to be problematic in the short term/term for many...but we'll get over it maybe with some regrets maybe not. Tearing apart a 300+ year old union will be a whole lot more traumatic...just why do it if we don't need to?? The Jocks that think they need to seriously need to have a look at their shoulder and the size of the chip that's on it because it's clearly clouding their judgement...and I say that as a deeply patriotic Scot (and Brit).

What has fuelled the Thatcher/post Thatcher era is the perception in Scotland that Scotland votes left and England votes right, England vastly out numbers Scotland (12/1) so Scots feel trapped and want to go it alone so they don't suffer the worst excesses of a right wing Tory regime. I kind of get the sentiment but in a long term historical context I'd say that 4 decades is a relatively short period of time in nationhood and not necessarily permanent (although it may currently feel never-ending). Unfortunately rampant Nationalism (not to be confused with patriotism) once it gets a grip is like cancer....very very hard to shift and the longer it lingers the more destructive it becomes.

Sad to say as well that a lot of Jocks tend to look at the Independence question with only one eye i.e. Tory England = misery for working class Scotland - What they don't contemplate is the other side of the equation...Scotland on it's own...Natural Resources?  Trading capability? GDP potential? Productivity? Bond Markets? and the path between deciding to go it alone and arriving at a financially stable place...probably a couple of generation of substantial strife!! Not saying they couldn't get there, what I'm saying is that many that would vote YES would do it the basis of the first part of this paragraph, oblivious to the second.

[dynamark]

Jas good point about scots not living there.I just cannot recall any real detail being proposed other than the basic we want to be independant.A very complex situation which seems totally illogical.Just watching state opening of Parliament .Isnt this the ceremony where the Lords take a commons member hostage to ensure the safety of the monarch.Its all very well done if a little elaborate.

[McLaren]

just why do it if we don't need to??

And this is the problem for traditional "unionists" like me and you. It isn't clear what we need to do at this point. I get that you are trying to broaden the view beyond the last 40 years but what matters are the decades to come. If the UK goes down a right wing rabbit hole and the rest of Europe continue on a progressive path then we might need to do it.

[beninho]

Photo Id for voting us fine if you make everyone have a compulsory free identity card. But, I don't think the tory Party was remotely on favour of that.

Making it compulsory to have photo id, knowing that numbers, usually younger people won't have it, is just a downright terrible policy.

Maybe, they will force everyone to have a free identity card.

[JAS]

Photo Id for voting us fine if you make everyone have a compulsory free identity card. But, I don't think the tory Party was remotely on favour of that.

Making it compulsory to have photo id, knowing that numbers, usually younger people won't have it, is just a downright terrible policy.

Maybe, they will force everyone to have a free identity card.

If you’re a Tory it’s a genius policy Ben, “Stops a LOT of scum voting against us” will no doubt be the sentiment driving it and it no doubt WILL be coupled with some sort of ID card which will certainly NOT be free.

Give it 10-15 years and our democratic process will be mired in the same sort of nonsense as the American one, disputes all over the place. If your in power you do what you can to preserve and strengthen your position, for some that means manipulating the rules to breaking point.

[JAS]

Speaking of Electoral Rules, our Tory Candidate for PCC thought it was ok to have a conviction and still put himself up for election. Now Wiltshire taxpayers will have to fork out over £1m for a repeat election. What was he thinking? what was his party thinking? Was were electoral officials thinking?

[JAS]

This board is becoming increasingly dull and flat these days.

[McLaren]

Probably because everyone left. I have tried asking the site admins to have a recruitment drive many times over the years but to no avail.

[beninho]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/eu-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled


Brexiteers must be fudding themselves dry over these stories.

[JAS]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/eu-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled


Brexiteers must be fudding themselves dry over these stories.

They may well be....much more interesting though is what they'll be doing 3, 5, 10 years down the line when there's the dawning realisation that in terms of prosperity, eradication of poverty, crime reduction, employment etc there's been hee-haw difference.

[McLaren]

I would be more interested to know what brexiters thought about the local community in Glasgow stopping the detention of refugees by the home office yesterday?

Quite remarkable scenes.

[beninho]

If restrictions are not lifted because of the Indian varient. It is purely in the actions of the government. People will still see no blame though.

[Soul Requiem]

If restrictions are not lifted because of the Indian varient. It is purely in the actions of the government. People will still see no blame though.

Real insight as ever.

[beninho]

If restrictions are not lifted because of the Indian varient. It is purely in the actions of the government. People will still see no blame though.

Real insight as ever.

Good to see you back. Xx

Anyway, can't see who else is to blame. They really have been sh*t at border control.

[dynamark]

Low takeup of vaccine in the ethnic groups,big multigenational families? - not very politacally correct but as this is internet hey ho.Nice to see the belfry on the tv again today had some happy days there.

[beninho]

Bangladesh and Pakistan put on red list 9th April. But not India. Unsure if it had anything to do with the planned trade visit later in the month.

Maybe he rather let tge bodies pile high instead of missing a jolly.

[beninho]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9580491/amp/Priti-Patel-20m-PPE-lobbying-storm.html?__twitter_impression=true
All bloody at it aren't they. At least she's not bullying her staff.

I also saw that David Frost says tge NIP is unsustainable, he must be furious with the person who negotiated it!

[JAS]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9580491/amp/Priti-Patel-20m-PPE-lobbying-storm.html?__twitter_impression=true
All bloody at it aren't they. At least she's not bullying her staff.

I also saw that David Frost says tge NIP is unsustainable, he must be furious with the person who negotiated it!  

It's hardly a surprising revelation though is it? There's been so much of this oozing out the cracks it's actually in danger of becoming normalised. Using the Covid situation as an excuse is expected and par for the course....one wonders at what point they'll stop using the immediate pressure of Covid for needing to act outside bureaucracy (Ministerial Code). They won't be able to say "Covid is over" and still do Poopie like this.....Well actually they will because they have an 80+ majority that doesn't look like evaporating any time soon (by soon I mean the next decade).

[JAS]

Here's one to stir the pot a bit :-p Ant Middleton axed from Who Dares Wins by Channel 4. What does that decision say about Channel 4? About Ant Middleton? About the wider perception of where we are as a society?

[McLaren]

Jas

Who is he, and what happened?

[JAS]

Jas

Who is he, and what happened?

Ex SAS soldier, think this must be about 5th? 6th series (there’s been a couple of celebrity ones as well) so effectively it’s a bit of reality TV where contestants get put through the rigour of SAS training. I’m not a fan of reality TV to be fair but this one is different, I do like it and it would have been right up my street of something I’d love to have done when I was a bit younger.

He’s being binned by channel 4 because “his values are not in line with ours” . So you engage a battle hardened elite soldier to run a TV show based on a gruelling training regime and you expect him to be all rainbow fairy cupcakes?? Allegedly some female crew members weren’t happy with some of his “army humour”

[McLaren]

So he is a bell end?

[Soul Requiem]

So he is a bell end?

Not at all.

[Duty281]

He’s  being binned by channel 4 because “his values are not in line with ours”

Sounds like an excellent endorsement.

[JAS]

So he is a bell end?

No Mac although you’d probably say that’s a matter of opinion. I think Starmer should hire him as his anti Woke Tzar!!

[Sponsored content]