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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 18 Empty South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

Post by George Carlin 17.07.21 21:00

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 18 A_10                  South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 18 Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833

PREVIEW:


Last edited by George Carlin on 24.07.21 17:25; edited 6 times in total
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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 18 Empty Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

Post by George Carlin 25.07.21 7:03

Good summary, RDW.

I wish a website would publish an aggregation of what ‘player ratings’ the rugby pundits are handing out because they’re wildly inconsistent and predictably informed strongly by the nationality of the publication.

There’s the ‘put Josh Adams back at all costs’ brigade; the ‘Conan was anonymous, bring back Faletau as he’s always class’ squadron; the ‘Sutherland is worse than stealing and is responsible for every scrum infringement in history’ massive and now the ‘any of my countrymen rather than Elliot Daly’ collective.

Predictable but really boring. I can’t see Gats making any wholesale changes - you need to reward the lions share of the team that won. If Watson is cited and cannot play, then you put Navidi straight into his bench slot. Gats mostly needs to speak with Cowan Dickie and St Tom of Curry and tell him to watch their lines of infringement.
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Post by Rugby Fan 25.07.21 8:32

AWJ didn't have a great game but he certainly had a captain's game. He played 80 minutes; put in tackles; and didn't make any mistakes, when others were guilty of doing just that. He was solid, and inspired confidence, which is what you want from your captain. The lineout choice which led to LCD's try was a key decision.

When our scrum was under pressure in the first, it raised the question of whether AWJ and Itoje were supporting the front row. The second half saw them do well enough, so there's not much to be gained from changing the starting pair on that front.

In the early part of the match, it seemed like English players were queuing up to give away the initiative. Curry's first offside penalty was an indication of the trouble we made for ourselves. Van der Merwe had already knocked on but it would have been a lot better to have had the Boks feeding a scrum near their goalline at that point rather than relieving pressure, and getting field position to cause the Lions trouble.

Curry then did a few eyecatching things across the match to balance out his penalties. It seemed, though, that he would be in danger of losing his place to Watson. Until Watson performed his tip tackle, thus raising questions about his own discipline.

LCD is another rmixed bag. Would another hooker have helped the front row in the scrum? Others will know better. The other two hookers would probably have been safer bets at throwing in, though.

It's a conundrum for Gatland. The same players who struggled in the first half were ultimately responsible for the turnaround, with the bench sealing the deal. Most pundits favour dropping Daly, not least because the Lions aren't playing the kind of game which best suits him. Our back row had good individual performances without ever looking like a complementary unit.

Springbok cohesion is only going to get better, so maybe the gameplan which nicked this test won't be ambitious enough against a more fired-up opposition, especially if the timing of their substitutions improves.

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Post by RDW 25.07.21 8:45

An excellent point RF and an important one when trying to compare a starter Vs a sub. You can't really compare the ball carrying from the first 30 minutes of a game with the last 30. The starters are up against an organised, fresh and willing defence. The subs are coming up against tired legs. There's a significant drop in intensity as the second half progresses. Indeed if you're a sub and don't at least appear to add energy and enthusiasm there's something really wrong! Prime example is a scrum half - the replacement always appears to up the tempo.

As you say it then becomes a question of would the sub have done better than the starter who did play...?

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Post by Heuer27 25.07.21 8:46

Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

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Post by formerly known as Sam 25.07.21 8:55

I'd agree other than Farrell who made a right pigs ear of trying to run the ball a couple of times after he came on. Choosing to run it in his own 22 nearly led to a try. If he's going to come on to close out the game then he needs to be a bit more cold and clinical. Murray controlled things pretty well.

Only Daly for me is in trouble with keeping his shirt for next week. Hooker could easily see rotation as it's three quality players to choose from.

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Post by TJ 25.07.21 9:23

Mish penalty

guys - check the laws and the guidance before making your selves look daft. Leg lift = foul play = penalty. Lands on front,/ arms - penonly. Lands on back yellow, lands on head / neck red

So following the correct process the correct decision. still a daft needless penalty tho

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Post by RDW 25.07.21 9:33

TJ wrote:Mish penalty

guys - check the laws and the guidance before making your selves look daft.  Leg lift = foul play = penalty.  Lands on front,/ arms - penonly.  Lands on back yellow, lands on head / neck red

So following the correct process the correct decision.  still a daft needless penalty tho

Any idea where that is set out in the laws? I tried searching the WR website but I could only find a high level law saying the below:

A player must not lift an opponent off the ground and drop or drive that player so that their head and/or upper body make contact with the ground.

I've never delved into the depths of it though.

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Post by TJ 25.07.21 9:43

Poor game from both sides

Can we now please put to rest the idea DVDM is poor defensivly and under the high ball?

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Post by TJ 25.07.21 9:45

RDW wrote:
TJ wrote:Mish penalty

guys - check the laws and the guidance before making your selves look daft.  Leg lift = foul play = penalty.  Lands on front,/ arms - penonly.  Lands on back yellow, lands on head / neck red

So following the correct process the correct decision.  still a daft needless penalty tho

Any idea where that is set out in the laws? I tried searching the WR website but I could only find a high level law saying the below:

A player must not lift an opponent off the ground and drop or drive that player so that their head and/or upper body make contact with the ground.

I've never delved into the depths of it though.

I can't find it either but thats the framework they have been working under to decide the degree of danger. Been that way for a few years. originally any tip was automatic red but it gave rise to stupid situations so they revised it to allow for a decision on degree of danger

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 9:53

Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 9:55

TJ wrote:Poor game from both sides

Can we now please put to rest the idea DVDM is poor defensivly and under the high ball?

TJ, I will suggest though that Faf de Klerk made VDM’s job easier by kicking very inaccurately. Often Faf’s kicks were too short, landed in heavy traffic.

Kolbe never got space to operate in.

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Post by TightHEAD 25.07.21 9:57

Watson needed to do something tough as in contact he was thrown around like a ragdoll. Just a penalty and a telling off for me.

Mako lifting kolbe up after he was smashed into touch was a bit silly. Please don't do it kids, even if you think they are milking it like a Footballer.

Few have mentioned Mako, clearly he was annoyed at not being selected, Wyn dropping out opened the door for him and he smashed it. Possible starter next week for me.

Daly, ah Daly so much promise but at times is just a headless chicken. Bench next week.

Price, iffy at times but came good 2nd half.

Henshaw hold it with two hands FFS, kids learn to do that.

Don't think Gats will change it too much, George for Cowan Dickie could happen, Mako in too. Centres need sorting just not good enough. Oh and Farrell over Biggar who looked about 70 percent. Falutau might start too.

Liked Curry's cheap shot on Faf. Naughty but nice. Don't do it again lad.

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Post by The Oracle 25.07.21 10:01

Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

My initial thought was that it was stupid from Vunipola. You shouldn’t just guess that a player is play acting. If he was genuinely injured, e.g. a back injury, they the worst thing in the world is yanking the guy to his feet by his collar. Just let the ref deal with it. Luckily the guy appeared to be ok.
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Post by Collapse2005 25.07.21 10:03

Cyril wrote:I’d Biggar is out for the next test it will be interesting if Smith gets on the bench with Farrell moving to 10.

Hopefully not, dont think Smith playing at 10 v the Boks would inspire confidence in anyone. Lamb to the slaughter.

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 10:13

The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

My initial thought was that it was stupid from Vunipola. You shouldn’t just guess that a player is play acting. If he was genuinely injured, e.g. a back injury, they the worst thing in the world is yanking the guy to his feet by his collar. Just let the ref deal with it. Luckily the guy appeared to be ok.

I didn’t think he was play acting, he threw his hands in the air, gestulating he was taken out, but it was ignored by the AR and referee

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Post by The Oracle 25.07.21 10:16

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

My initial thought was that it was stupid from Vunipola. You shouldn’t just guess that a player is play acting. If he was genuinely injured, e.g. a back injury, they the worst thing in the world is yanking the guy to his feet by his collar. Just let the ref deal with it. Luckily the guy appeared to be ok.

I didn’t think he was play acting, he threw his hands in the air, gestulating he was taken out, but it was ignored by the AR and referee

Yeah, I agree. My point was that it was not for Vunipola to decide and to take it into his own hands. Could have made any injury worse.
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Post by The Oracle 25.07.21 10:21

Just watching the highlights and I’m really surprised the Hamish Watson tip tackle wasn’t a yellow. The SA player is clearly taken past the horizontal and not returned to the ground safely. Lucky escape for the Lions.
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Post by George Carlin 25.07.21 10:24

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Post by George Carlin 25.07.21 10:25

The Oracle wrote:Just watching the highlights and I’m really surprised the Hamish Watson tip tackle wasn’t a yellow. The SA player is clearly taken past the horizontal and not returned to the ground safely. Lucky escape for the Lions.
In the game, yes, but I would guess that he'll be cited and won't be available for the remaining two games.
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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 10:27

The Oracle wrote:Just watching the highlights and I’m really surprised the Hamish Watson tip tackle wasn’t a yellow. The SA player is clearly taken past the horizontal and not returned to the ground safely. Lucky escape for the Lions.

I agree, but the reality of the match is the Boks lacked the fitness, the physicality and aerial skills to assert their game plan, and when they started to feel the pressure they had no plan, they kept kicking possession away and hardly played any rugby. The Lions didn’t inspire either, but they did have the fitness, the physicality and momentum to deserve the win.

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Post by Collapse2005 25.07.21 10:28

I cant see him getting cited but you never know. If they do Im guessing they will see it as at most a yellow which doesnt warrant a ban.

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Post by TightHEAD 25.07.21 10:30

Why didn't the TMO review Fafs forearm smash into Itoje neck after the whistle?

Should be cited seeing as it was missed.
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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 10:30

No, it wasn’t a red card incident, there shouldn’t be any citing

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Post by Heuer27 25.07.21 10:30

Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

Yeh that’s the one Price grabbed his leg in the air and Kolbe lay rolling on the ground as if a stampeding herd of buffalo,had taken him out.. Vinapolo walks over grabs him by the shirt and drags him to his feet. Very funny. Kolbe just shrugged and walked away clearly not injured just play acting. No need for the play acting but it was a penalty.


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Post by The Oracle 25.07.21 10:31

George Carlin wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Just watching the highlights and I’m really surprised the Hamish Watson tip tackle wasn’t a yellow. The SA player is clearly taken past the horizontal and not returned to the ground safely. Lucky escape for the Lions.
In the game, yes, but I would guess that he'll be cited and won't be available for the remaining two games.

I wouldn’t like to see him banned. He makes my starting team. But ‘letter of the law’ and all that. I was just surprised by the decision in light of the way rugby is being refereed in the last few years (player safety, etc).
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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 10:31

Heuer27 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

Yeh that’s the one Price grabbed his leg in the air and Kolbe lay rolling on the ground as if a stampeding herd of buffalo,had taken him out.. Vinapolo walks over grabs him by the shirt and drags him to his feet. Very funny. Kolbe just shrugged and walked away. No need for the play acting but it was a penalty.

I will have to watch that again, can’t recall the “play acting”

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Post by Heuer27 25.07.21 10:38

Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Did anyone else notice Vunipolo lift Kolbe back to his feet whilst he was play acting after a high ball incident. Lifted him by his collar from prone right onto his toes .Made me chuckle. Pity no one did it to Leroux after the Watson brain fart. He was milking that so he was.

Not sure if it was the same incident, but there was one on the touchline when Kolbe was taken out in the air.

Yeh that’s the one Price grabbed his leg in the air and Kolbe lay rolling on the ground as if a stampeding herd of buffalo,had taken him out.. Vinapolo walks over grabs him by the shirt and drags him to his feet. Very funny. Kolbe just shrugged and walked away. No need for the play acting but it was a penalty.

I will have to watch that again, can’t recall the “play acting”

Don’t know what else to call it. He lay on the ground as if injured playing for a penalty that never came. Like I said it was a penalty though. Just thought Mako’s reaction was funny. It was like a dad picking their kid up who was lying on the ground having a tantrum.


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Post by No 7&1/2 25.07.21 10:38

George Carlin wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Just watching the highlights and I’m really surprised the Hamish Watson tip tackle wasn’t a yellow. The SA player is clearly taken past the horizontal and not returned to the ground safely. Lucky escape for the Lions.
In the game, yes, but I would guess that he'll be cited and won't be available for the remaining two games.

Dont think it's a red.

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Post by Heuer27 25.07.21 10:44

For Watson the mitigating factor was the two SA forwards coming over the top with all four landing on the ground. Nothing more than a yellow at worst, penalty probably a fair result. Don’t understand the fixation with this, it came to nothing.

Curry cost 6 points and 3 penalties in the first 20 mins arguably he should have seen yellow for the charge on DeKlerk that was worse than Watson ‘s for me. That was a grade A stupid act with no mitigation. He’s a lucky boy.

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Post by Soul Requiem 25.07.21 10:50

I try and look at things from the other perspective, had Du Toit done that to Hogg I'd be screaming for a card.

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Post by Heaf 25.07.21 10:54

No chance of a ban as it was never a red card.

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Post by Heaf 25.07.21 10:56

Soul Requiem wrote:I try and look at things from the other perspective, had Du Toit done that to Hogg I'd be screaming for a card.

I thought Hogg may have been taken in the air early on but as I was watching on a laptop I couldn't see properly and it was never replayed.

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Post by Heuer27 25.07.21 11:05

Heaf wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I try and look at things from the other perspective, had Du Toit done that to Hogg I'd be screaming for a card.

I thought Hogg may have been taken in the air early on but as I was watching on a laptop I couldn't see properly and it was never replayed.

They showed it from another angle later in the program. Hogg gets over the top of Kolbe in the air . Only saw it once so not sure if Kolbe had a realistic chance to compete for the ball. He hit Hogg around his knee with his shoulder. Think it would have been looked at here but they don’t seem to be doing much TMO replay stuff on this tour.

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Post by lostinwales 25.07.21 11:34

Curry on Faf. They are team mates afterall.

Watson (A) on the stats listed as beating 7 defenders, significantly higher than anyone else from either team.

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Post by The Oracle 25.07.21 11:44

A Watson had that lovely run in the first half. I think 5 or 6 of his ‘defenders beaten’ were in that run!
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Post by R!skysports 25.07.21 12:19

Well what a tight game. Not one that many will go back and watch again, and one really for the forwards.

Agree the the MOM, though he had a great game, and happy to admit I might have been wrong :-)

Thought Lawes was good in many areas, but still lacks a little in others. But still worthy of starting

On the 7s...we not sure what I can say.

Curry.. a very mixed bag and very lucky not to be yellow carded for his late, not arms shoulder charge on Faf. If Farrell had done that we would have been up in arms. This he was a little headless for most of the game

Watson - came on, did a stupid tip and was also lucky to not get a yellow. Think he settled in after that (hope got a hair dryer moment) and was good at getting in amongst the tackles. Did not have any really opportunity with ball in hand, and the 2 he did get were hospital passes, so struggled and was swamped, so no ground made (thrown around like a rag doll...really....people see what they want to see...he stood them up enough to get support and set the ball)

Front Row struggled a bit at the start to understand the ref's interpretation but were quite destructive at the start of the 2nd half. Winning the battle before subbing off

Vinopala - solid as a rock, but no destructive scrummaging - but played a lot better than I expected, so I admit I was wrong (again) :-)

Of the backs (although mostly a forwards) , thought Price, Watson, Hendsaw and VDM had good games

The rest had solid games and stood up well (but not really a backs game)

Only Daly had a shocker, with a leaky defence and very headless

For the next test - not many changes

On Front Row. Though they all struggled at the start, they came good and Vinapola rock solid when come in. Depends if you think he would be as effective against a fresh pack? Stay the same or swap the starting loosehead

2nd Row - stay the same
Back Row - Stay the same, or give hamish a start for a decent run, with Curry on bench

9 - same

10 - depends in Bigger fit - Farrel good for strategic kicking, but not running, but maybe that is what the game will need - bench - Russel if fit

12 - Same

13 - harris

back 3 - same

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Post by mikey_dragon 25.07.21 12:22

Is Biggar still linked with Toulouse? His stock must be continuing to rise, it would have to be in the region of 900K per annum or more…

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Post by LordDowlais 25.07.21 12:27

OK here we go, waited until I watched the Lions breakfast show, and re-watched the game again this morning before I put a comment on here.

Firstly people who are saying that AWJ did not have a good game are talking nonsense, at one point, the only person on that pitch who made more tackles was the ever impressive Itoje. That was at about the 70 minute mark, he really didn't put a foot wrong, yet here we are with people trying to convince others that he didn't play well. Oh well.

The back three were really poor, VDM and Hogg in particular, that game was screaming out for Liam Williams, I hope the combination is changed for next week. None were that good under the high ball, and they did not offer much in attack either, at least Watson tried to get involved. Watch the game again, and take a look at Liam Williams's cameo, he was everywhere and he was smashing into the rucks.

Courtney Lawes was the best player on that pitch yesterday, closely followed by Dan Biggar who before he went off was playing a blinder.

I'm sorry but Sutherland was very poor, he was getting a pasting in the scrum and was anonymous in open play.

Also, I would drop Daley for next week and put Harris in. Daley was not up to it. Henshaw was very good again, as was Ali Price. Itoje was awesome, and it shows what he can do when his head is in the right place, he was not jeering and clapping and giving away pens yesterday, he was just class. LCD had a shaky first half, and Curry was just giving pens away, his late hit on Faf was stupid. Conan was OK, he really didn't do anything wrong, but he wasn't spectacular either.

All in all, I am very happy with the result, but I just think a few players did not cover themselves in much glory, next week, I hope they swap VDM and Hogg for Adams and Williams, and they swap Daley for Harris, I would also hope that Wyn Jones is fit to start next week, as I think both Vunipola and Sutherland would struggle against Nyakane, although Vunipola did a better job than Sutherland yesterday.

Thats my two penneth. Feel free to pick the bones out of it if you want. Very Happy

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Post by LordDowlais 25.07.21 12:31

Thats the players, the ref I thought bottled two massive calls at the start of the game, the no arms tackle and shoulder to Daleys chin, and Hogg being taken out in the air, I thought they were reds all day long, and I think those two instances impacted on the performance of the two players for the rest of the game.

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 12:33

OK then.

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Post by LordDowlais 25.07.21 12:35

Old Man wrote:OK then.

You reckon they were OK ?

It's fine to disagree, just say why ? Very Happy

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Post by Soul Requiem 25.07.21 12:51

What I will say with regards to AWJ is that he did all the ugly stuff yesterday that allowed Itoje to do his more eye catching thing, as a combo they do work well. I do also wonder if we're falling into the old numbers trap with regards to Lawes and Itoje again?

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Post by LordDowlais 25.07.21 12:55

Soul Requiem wrote:What I will say with regards to AWJ is that he did all the ugly stuff yesterday that allowed Itoje to do his more eye catching thing, as a combo they do work well. I do also wonder if we're falling into the old numbers trap with regards to Lawes and Itoje again?

Yes I agree.

Itoje put in a real mature performance, it was refreshing to see it, that kid has it all, when he is not concerned with playing up, he really does show his class. I think that perhaps, AWJ led by example, and Itoje just followed suit.

I thought Lawes was the best player in that pitch yesterday though, the Boks will be looking for him next week, I hope he stands up to them.

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Post by Soul Requiem 25.07.21 12:57

LordDowlais wrote:Thats the players, the ref I thought bottled two massive calls at the start of the game, the no arms tackle and shoulder to Daleys chin, and Hogg being taken out in the air, I thought they were reds all day long, and I think those two instances impacted on the performance of the two players for the rest of the game.

Am did the classic Farrell of leading with the shoulder and then making a non attempt at wrapping the arm.

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 12:57

LordDowlais wrote:
Old Man wrote:OK then.

You reckon they were OK ?

It's fine to disagree, just say why ? Very Happy

Firstly, I have an issue with people calling for cards, especially red cards. As for the match itself, I haven’t seen any instances in the match that was blatantly a red card. Granted, I tend to accept that rugby is a contact sport and instances can happen where people scream out red card please mr referee.

To me a red card is a blatant foul play incident such as Bakkies Botha on Cowan during a test vs the AB’s a couple of years ago.

Yes I get player safety, but there are many things that influences contact between two players, and perpetuating the idea that a red card is the first thing we go to when there is a questionable action against our players from an opposition team’s player tells me rugby is going the wrong way.

a number of times during this match players are held up in order for the defending team to have maul called and possession turned over, the ball carrier then does everything in his power to slide down, until eventually he ends up in a position where the tackler has slid up to his neck, then people want to cry, yellow card mr referee.

Some “high” tackles are simply nonsense in my view, once a ball carrier is not holding his own weight up with his feet it is nigh on impossible to not contact above the shoulder. For example when a player is driving towards the tryline with his head below his hips.

We need to not perpetuate this idea of carding every play that simply looks suspect. Rugby is a physical, hard contact sport. If we are going to follow the current trend of wokeness and somehow transport that into rugby, where are we going to end up?

In my view World Rugby is trying to make the game safer which I understand, however common sense needs to be part of the laws.

It is like saying the player is guilty until proven innocent. It should be the other way around.

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 12:58

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Thats the players, the ref I thought bottled two massive calls at the start of the game, the no arms tackle and shoulder to Daleys chin, and Hogg being taken out in the air, I thought they were reds all day long, and I think those two instances impacted on the performance of the two players for the rest of the game.

Am did the classic Farrell of leading with the shoulder and then making a non attempt at wrapping the arm.

Absolute nonsense.

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Post by LordDowlais 25.07.21 13:01

Yes I agree, but to the letter of the law both incidents were pens at least, and contact to the head, with the shoulder is a red, as is taking people out in the air.

To balance it out, Hamish Watson should have seen red as well in my opinion, we want consistency, we want fair play.

A lot of dangerous incidents were let go yesterday, we wouldn't be saying what you are saying if any of the players in question were seriously injured as a result of the tackles would we ?

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Post by Soul Requiem 25.07.21 13:03

Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Thats the players, the ref I thought bottled two massive calls at the start of the game, the no arms tackle and shoulder to Daleys chin, and Hogg being taken out in the air, I thought they were reds all day long, and I think those two instances impacted on the performance of the two players for the rest of the game.

Am did the classic Farrell of leading with the shoulder and then making a non attempt at wrapping the arm.

Absolute nonsense.

Good input, thank you.

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Post by Old Man 25.07.21 13:05

LordDowlais wrote:Yes I agree, but to the letter of the law both incidents were pens at least, and contact to the head, with the shoulder is a red, as is taking people out in the air.

To balance it out, Hamish Watson should have seen red as well in my opinion, we want consistency, we want fair play.

A lot of dangerous incidents were let go yesterday, we wouldn't be saying what you are saying if any of the players in question were seriously injured as a result of the tackles would we ?


Like I said, nothing in that match warranted a red. Watson was saved a yellow because the ball under Le Roux prevented him from landing on his neck or head. But it was never a red card.

Players get injured, for me to call red it has to be blatant foul play, regardless of whether the other player is injured.

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Post by king_carlos 25.07.21 13:09

Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Thats the players, the ref I thought bottled two massive calls at the start of the game, the no arms tackle and shoulder to Daleys chin, and Hogg being taken out in the air, I thought they were reds all day long, and I think those two instances impacted on the performance of the two players for the rest of the game.

Am did the classic Farrell of leading with the shoulder and then making a non attempt at wrapping the arm.

Absolute nonsense.

I agree with Old Man. Am's arms are up when he makes the hit. When Farrell has made no arm tackles in the past his arm is facing backwards towards the post when he makes contact. Similar to a lot of the no arms chop tackles that Exeter players make when they just dive at a players ankles with their leading arm pointing backwards.

Both of Am's arms are up, the right arm immediately wraps around Daly's torso, the left arm tries to wrap around the hips but can't as Daly goes flying. A brilliant tackle.

As for it being high, the initial contact is actually with the ball then Am makes contact with Daly's chest. The force of the impact means that Daly's head flies forward due to whiplash and his nose might graze Am's shoulder but at no point does Am ride up and it's not dangerous.

Just a brilliantly timed and executed tackle.

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