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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

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 South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 5 Empty South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

Post by George Carlin Sun 25 Jul 2021, 3:23 am

First topic message reminder :

 South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 5 A_10                   South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 5 Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 31 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant Referees: Nic Berry (Australia), Mathieu Raynal (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker ( Erm )

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 63 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 15 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 16 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 48 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain, Montpellier) – 50 caps, 477pts (6t, 78c, 93p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 31 caps, 25 pts (5t)

08 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap, 0 pts
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 52 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 41 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 87 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 38 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 49 caps, 5pts (1t)

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 35 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 44 caps, 5 pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Saracens) – 21 caps, 0 pts
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 46 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Marco van Staden (Vodacom Bulls) – 3 caps, 0 pts
21 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 8 caps, 5 pts (1t)
22 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 12 caps, 25 pts (5t)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 8 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790

01. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Taulupe Faletau (Bath Rugby, Wales) #779
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

PREVIEW:


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 29 Jul 2021, 2:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by R!skysports Thu 29 Jul 2021, 3:28 am

The Oracle wrote:I know my comment was straight after Poorfour’s comment but it wasn’t a response to him (I would have used the quote function!). I guess it was more a response to R!sky who was worried/annoyed that the Lions seemed to change game plan when we were not getting any joy on the wings. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood the post. But if that was the theme then I think the Lions need to be praised for changing tactics mid game. In my opinion it would been madness to see us getting smashed back when the ball went wide and continue to ship the ball out there. SA had our number there, for whatever reason, so it was great to see us change and go down a different path which then saw the game change in our favour. Completely agree that if the personnel are all there to do it then go for it. But we’ve not got settled combinations yet, such is the nature of the Lions tours. I like watching Finn Russell, for example, but chucking him in with new players who have never played with him (training aside) and hoping it all clicks like it sometimes does for Scotland is a big ask. Scotland fans talk about being on Finn’s ‘wavelength’, and that’s sometimes a struggle for his  Scotland teams mates who he plays with lots! Would love it to work more than I’d like to see a Lions team grind out a win, but………I dunno. Is it risky (or R!sky?! Haha sorry Shocked Smile  )?

This is my point, imo they didn't change tactics, but had a plan to boot the ball almost every time. Yes they threw out once or twice, but it seemed up and unders were the plan from the start..which negates the attacking set up he had (and which I had got a little excited about)


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Post by Poorfour Thu 29 Jul 2021, 3:54 am

R!skysports wrote:

This is my point, imo they didn't change tactics, but had a plan to boot the ball almost every time. Yes they threw out once or twice, but it seemed up and unders were the plan from the start..which negates the attacking set up he had (and which I had got a little excited about)


I think you're lacking a layer of nuance there. The game plan remained kicking, but the nature of the kicks changed. They went from kicking purely for territory to putting contestable kicks that would let one of Curry or DVDM make a hit and then contest the breakdown.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 29 Jul 2021, 4:54 am

Ruck, if they are to be believed are saying that Gatland has revealed his changes to the match day squad if Biggar cannot play. As expected Farrell goes in at 10, not expected, Marcus Smith comes in at 22 as Russell is still struggling.
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Post by lostinwales Thu 29 Jul 2021, 5:32 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Ruck, if they are to be believed are saying that Gatland has revealed his changes to the match day squad if Biggar cannot play. As expected Farrell goes in at 10, not expected, Marcus Smith comes in at 22 as Russell is still struggling.

Its going to happen isn't it? Smith to trigger the score late on that leads to a narrow Lions victory and be the hero, and come the autumn will miss out on selection to Ford and Farrell.

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Post by sensisball Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:27 am

if LCD can get knocked out in the premiership final, fly 13 hours to SA 6 days later and play off the bench the following week then surely Biggar can "pass" his HIA return to play protocol? After all he wasn't even knocked out last week.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:30 am

sensisball wrote:if LCD can get knocked out in the premiership final, fly 13 hours to SA 6 days later and play off the bench the following week then surely Biggar can "pass" his HIA return to play protocol? After all he wasn't even knocked out last week.

The two aren't the same, you can be knocked out without suffering a concussion and vice versa.

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Post by EST Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:40 am

Has anybody seen any of Rassie's video? Equal parts embarrassing and cringeworthy.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:40 am

EST wrote:Has anybody seen any of Rassie's video?  Equal parts embarrassing and cringeworthy.

He's a grade a <insert four letter word of your choice>, he's been whining for days now.

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Post by RDW Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:46 am

Seriously how is this not bringing the game into disrepute?

Never mind rugby, if a coach from any professional sport did this they'd have the book thrown at them.

Poor ref on Saturday - so much focus is going to be on them.

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Post by protea438 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:49 am

EST wrote:Has anybody seen any of Rassie's video?  Equal parts embarrassing and cringeworthy.

Laws are laws though and should be followed correctly, Where was Rassie incorrect then ?

He is getting a lot of flak for it, but no counter arguments, I am sure Warren Gatland could easily rustle up a video

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:51 am

Odd. Normally you kick up a stink as a coach to take the focus off your players. Can't help this is more a Kevin Keegan style intervention.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:54 am

protea438 wrote:
EST wrote:Has anybody seen any of Rassie's video?  Equal parts embarrassing and cringeworthy.

Laws are laws though and should be followed correctly, Where was Rassie incorrect then ?

He is getting a lot of flak for it, but no counter arguments, I am sure Warren Gatland could easily rustle up a video

Well he's carefully selected clips where you can argue where the Lions have infringed etc. And yes you could easily rustle up a video of things that went the other way. It's a very odd thing to video and then release.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:00 am

EST wrote:Has anybody seen any of Rassie's video?  Equal parts embarrassing and cringeworthy.

It has left me impressed with how strong Mako is. I know Kolbe isn't the biggest guy in world rugby but still..

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Post by RDW Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:05 am

You've got to wonder what the Bok players are making of all this. It's either going to create a backs against the wall attitude or serve as a huge distraction. Imagine if he's subjected them to similar ramblings all week at training.

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Post by EST Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:14 am

RDW wrote:You've got to wonder what the Bok players are making of all this. It's either going to create a backs against the wall attitude or serve as a huge distraction. Imagine if he's subjected them to similar ramblings all week at training.

This series has honestly left me feeling pretty scunnered with the state of rugby just now:  Partisan bickering from pundits, clickbait rugby twitter accounts producing nonsense, fairly turgid play and a World Cup winning coach whining to whoever will listen about refereeing decisions - it's all extremely boring. This is all being conducted against a backdrop of global pandemic and civic unrest in the host country - we should be feckin' delighted there is a tour at all and that we're privileged enough to watch it.


Last edited by EST on Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Old Man Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:15 am

Whilst I think Rassie is portraying himself as a whiner here, the video does pose questions.

The dismissive attitude towards Siya is crigeworthy in its own right, and some clips which I haven’t focused on were interesting.

But then Rassie is doing the Springboks no favour here. This will now become the series full of whiners and controversies.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:25 am

I did think of watching the video, but then saw it's an hour long. I struggle to believe somebody has put time into that. I hope the Boks aren't too dehydrated, whilst Jaco/Rassie is neglecting his waterboy duties to do this.

It reminds me more of when Rafa Benitez presented his "facts". That was cringey and so is this.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:29 am

I have seen nothing to suggest Biggar isn't going to ready for Saturday. He seems to have come through every protocol thus far.

Bit of a nothing article by Ruck. I hate articles like that, that go over one page for no reason too.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:39 am

I thought the officiating was poor on Saturday, but Erasmus has entirely lost the plot in an unprofessional manner. His players must be suffering second-hand embarrassment.

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Post by protea438 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:43 am

RiscaGame wrote:I did think of watching the video, but then saw it's an hour long. I struggle to believe somebody has put time into that. I hope the Boks aren't too dehydrated, whilst Jaco/Rassie is neglecting his waterboy duties to do this.

It reminds me more of when Rafa Benitez presented his "facts". That was cringey and so is this.

So what are you basing things on, at least Rassie made the effort. I have more faith in a World Cup winning coach than random people on the internet when dealing with rugby related issues

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Post by 123456789. Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:48 am

Suppose it's one of those things, has he cracked or is he a genius taking the pressure and focus off his players? I suppose the result will tell us on Saturday. If I was one of the Lions I'd be licking my lips.

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Post by miltonkeynesengland Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:51 am

Old Man wrote:Whilst I think Rassie is portraying himself as a whiner here, the video does pose questions.

The dismissive attitude towards Siya is crigeworthy in its own right, and some clips which I haven’t focused on were interesting.

But then Rassie is doing the Springboks no favour here. This will now become the series full of whiners and controversies.

If he'd produced a video showing faults for and against SA it would have helped your guys. He'd be getting praise and clarity around decisions that he wants...as it is...it just looks awful.

For Siya this reminds me a lot of Robshaw...he just could never seem to win refs around to his POV. E.g. "not now Christopher" from Owens. Warbs was very good at this..Vermeulen in the WC seemed to have it. Some players just don't seem good at it and if you're the captain it's trouble for your team.

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Post by Old Man Thu 29 Jul 2021, 8:04 am

miltonkeynesengland wrote:
Old Man wrote:Whilst I think Rassie is portraying himself as a whiner here, the video does pose questions.

The dismissive attitude towards Siya is crigeworthy in its own right, and some clips which I haven’t focused on were interesting.

But then Rassie is doing the Springboks no favour here. This will now become the series full of whiners and controversies.

If he'd produced a video showing faults for and against SA it would have helped your guys. He'd be getting praise and clarity around decisions that he wants...as it is...it just looks awful.

For Siya this reminds me a lot of Robshaw...he just could never seem to win refs around to his POV. E.g. "not now Christopher" from Owens. Warbs was very good at this..Vermeulen in the WC seemed to have it. Some players just don't seem good at it and if you're the captain it's trouble for your team.
We had this situation before when John Smit was dismissed by Bryce Lawrence in the 2011 RWC QF vs Australia. Prior to that match the Aussies went of on Bryce for the manner in which he refereed Pocock vs Ireland, worked for them.

This has a similar feel to it with Gatland brewing such a storm last week over the TMO appointment.

Yes it does not do SA any favours, Rassie did say someone should do the same video from a Lions perspective though.

I just think he should have done this behind closed doors. This way it just gives all those Springbok haters more reason to hate them

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 8:06 am

The more I think on it the more I'm amazed he thinks this is a good idea. He could have just pointed out Vunipola's act of picking up De Klerk, Watsons tip and pointed out the very short advantage and got more sympathy and possibly the ear of the next set of officials in about 40 seconds. Meanwhile most watching will be saying well you've ignored a tonne of stuff here including things from the clips like the South African lock flying off his feet at a ruck while moaning Itoje left is off his feet.

It must also be said it's a very lazy presentation; why has Erasmus not done his own set of presentations rather than steal a random guy's off twitter?

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Post by lostinwales Thu 29 Jul 2021, 8:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:...

It must also be said it's a very lazy presentation; why has Erasmus not done his own set of presentations rather than steal a random guy's off twitter?
Whistle

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 29 Jul 2021, 8:15 am

protea438 wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I did think of watching the video, but then saw it's an hour long. I struggle to believe somebody has put time into that. I hope the Boks aren't too dehydrated, whilst Jaco/Rassie is neglecting his waterboy duties to do this.

It reminds me more of when Rafa Benitez presented his "facts". That was cringey and so is this.

So what are you basing things on, at least Rassie made the effort. I have more faith in a World Cup winning coach than random people on the internet when dealing with rugby related issues

Pretty pointless you discussing anything on here then, if people other than Rassie can't offer opinions. Perhaps tweet him instead, seeing as he's quite prolific on there nowadays. Just make sure you choose the right account.

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Post by protea438 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 8:35 am

RiscaGame wrote:
protea438 wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I did think of watching the video, but then saw it's an hour long. I struggle to believe somebody has put time into that. I hope the Boks aren't too dehydrated, whilst Jaco/Rassie is neglecting his waterboy duties to do this.

It reminds me more of when Rafa Benitez presented his "facts". That was cringey and so is this.

So what are you basing things on, at least Rassie made the effort. I have more faith in a World Cup winning coach than random people on the internet when dealing with rugby related issues

Pretty pointless you discussing anything on here then, if people other than Rassie can't offer opinions. Perhaps tweet him instead, seeing as he's quite prolific on there nowadays. Just make sure you choose the right account.

Think its pretty straight forward actually, Rassie made an attempt with 'evidence' to back up his thoughts, you are just throwing baseless insults

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 29 Jul 2021, 9:44 am

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 29 Jul 2021, 9:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The more I think on it the more I'm amazed he thinks this is a good idea. He could have just pointed out Vunipola's act of picking up De Klerk, Watsons tip and pointed out the very short advantage and got more sympathy and possibly the ear of the next set of officials in about 40 seconds. Meanwhile most watching will be saying well you've ignored a tonne of stuff here including things from the clips like the South African lock flying off his feet at a ruck while moaning Itoje left is off his feet.

It must also be said it's a very lazy presentation; why has Erasmus not done his own set of presentations rather than steal a random guy's off twitter?

I'm not sure why they've kicked up a fuss about the advantage. It's open to interpretation but I've noticed that a lot of ref's base it on gaining ground. On the occasion they're all crying about, the Lions didn't really gain a lot of ground (the SA defence was good at stopping them on the gainline and hitting them back).

If there's anyone who struggles with the advantage call it's French ref's.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jul 2021, 10:16 am

I got the impression he was thinking that it was a knock on advantage.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 29 Jul 2021, 11:39 am

I saw the article about Rassie on the BBC but then realised it just doesn't resonate with me.  It's not about the validity of the points he seems to have made, just the making of a video or playing head games.  Gatland plays his games and so does Eddie Jones (!) and so do most other coaches in every other sport. The nature of the beast, so to speak.

We all know Rassie kind of dances to his own tune every now and then.  We also know he is a good coach who has been successful.  I don't think this kind of thing will impact the players on either side because they are focusing on what they need to do on Saturday.  And I also don't think this will impact the match officials either.  They are all professionals and will do their jobs.  This is the biggest Rugby event of the year and everyone is under the spotlight and will do the best they can.

I think we all need Saturday to come quickly.

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Post by TightHEAD Thu 29 Jul 2021, 2:55 pm

Rassie = David Brent.

Just embarrassing for SA. All time low.

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Post by RDW Thu 29 Jul 2021, 5:33 pm

EST wrote:
RDW wrote:You've got to wonder what the Bok players are making of all this. It's either going to create a backs against the wall attitude or serve as a huge distraction. Imagine if he's subjected them to similar ramblings all week at training.

This series has honestly left me feeling pretty scunnered with the state of rugby just now:  Partisan bickering from pundits, clickbait rugby twitter accounts producing nonsense, fairly turgid play and a World Cup winning coach whining to whoever will listen about refereeing decisions - it's all extremely boring.  This is all being conducted against a backdrop of global pandemic and civic unrest in the host country - we should be feckin' delighted there is a tour at all and that we're privileged enough to watch it.  

Agree with this. Unless the 2nd and 3rd tests are absolute humdingers, this series isn't going to be remembered for the rugby.

I also agree that if this is the future of top level rugby (all the social media guff, public bashing from coaches etc) I'm not looking forward to it.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 29 Jul 2021, 6:05 pm

RDW wrote:
EST wrote:
RDW wrote:You've got to wonder what the Bok players are making of all this. It's either going to create a backs against the wall attitude or serve as a huge distraction. Imagine if he's subjected them to similar ramblings all week at training.

This series has honestly left me feeling pretty scunnered with the state of rugby just now:  Partisan bickering from pundits, clickbait rugby twitter accounts producing nonsense, fairly turgid play and a World Cup winning coach whining to whoever will listen about refereeing decisions - it's all extremely boring.  This is all being conducted against a backdrop of global pandemic and civic unrest in the host country - we should be feckin' delighted there is a tour at all and that we're privileged enough to watch it.  

Agree with this. Unless the 2nd and 3rd tests are absolute humdingers, this series isn't going to be remembered for the rugby.

I also agree that if this is the future of top level rugby (all the social media guff, public bashing from coaches etc) I'm not looking forward to it.
I am still amazed we have a tour and are playing any international Rugby anywhere.  So I agree completely.  Whether the Rugby is good, bad, or somewhere in-between, this tour will always be the Pandemic Tour.  And I am grateful for it.  

The social media nonsense is just that, and really seems childish.  But it's everywhere.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 29 Jul 2021, 7:23 pm

I've followed this tour less than any for a long time due to being busy with work and I think I've enjoyed the rugby itself incomparably than I would have done after following the build up I've avoided pretty much all social media and build up outside of scanning over the teams. I've watched most the warm-ups with the commentary off.

All that said I still don't think the tour should have gone ahead. The lack of thought put to SA having not played since the RWC final drives me nuts. If the home nations hadn't played since 2019 there wouldn't have been contemplation of a tour. The Boks not playing since then though, well who gives a f***, chuck some jersey's on and get out there lads.

A poor spectacle for rugby.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:09 am

When players and coaches are actively trying to deceive officials, it's a bit rich to complain when they don't pick everything up.

For instance, when Maro Itoje goes for a turnover, he often won't try to lift the ball. Instead, he pushes it into the turf. This has the double benefit of letting him lean, without looking like he's going off his feet, and also stops the attacking side from getting the ball away. To the referee, it can look like Itoje is trying to get the ball, while it is not being released by the attacking side.

All sides look to gain advantages in such ways. I'd be more inclined to listen to complaints about referees if coaches had concrete ideas about how to improve oficiating. Without that input, it's just moaning.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:22 am

McBride has just read out a prepared statement re Biggar's concussion protocols after Jones updated yesterday that Biggar had trained well all week. Did not answer the journalists question however on whether this meant that Biggar had trained or whether it was just a turn of phrase. Sounds like the Lions are playing fast and loose on health.

THis is from Walesonline on the Jones quotes yesterday:

How is Dan Biggar? Has he completed his return-to-play protocols after a HIA?

"I wasn’t aware he was carrying anything. As I can see, he has trained fully.

"I’m not part of the medical team so I can’t give you a full answer on that. The squad as a whole is important."

Has he trained much?

"As I already said, yes."



Confirmed that Faletau is the openside cover.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by lostinwales Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:24 am

As long as it does not involve deliberate injury rugby has always been about what you can get away with instead of playing to the rules.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:37 am

Rugby Fan wrote:For instance, when Maro Itoje goes for a turnover, he often won't try to lift the ball. Instead, he pushes it into the turf. This has the double benefit of letting him lean, without looking like he's going off his feet, and also stops the attacking side from getting the ball away. To the referee, it can look like Itoje is trying to get the ball, while it is not being released by the attacking side.

This was the old Rory Best way of winning turnovers. Bodyweight on the ball appeal to ref, no one was going to be able to move him once he was clamped on. If the opportunity arose get the forearms on the floor for extra purchase. He took his career to another level with that technique. Itoje is no fool, he'll have watched what the officials like to penalise pre game and then try to play to the ref, he really does play right on the edge. He used to be amazing at using his boot to flick the ball out the ruck before that was banned as well.

There's been a big crackdown in the Prem on that sort of turnover and now it's a case of no lifting motion, no reward. Perhaps we'll see more of that this weekend from the officiating team. Got to say I thought the officials were consistent at the breakdown and both sides moaning about the officials is normally a sure sign they did a good job.

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Post by Old Man Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:38 am

lostinwales wrote:As long as it does not involve deliberate injury rugby has always been about what you can get away with instead of playing to the rules.
Agree, rugby has always been about what you can get away with.

But perhaps it is time to rethink how infringements are penalised. The ruck has been a contentious issue for a long time, it is known to every rugby fan that just about every ruck has infringements, and often more than one. Referees tend to penalise the infringement most obvious (that they see) , but they can only see a ruck from their view, it is impossible to see a ruck from both sides.

Does this not then allow the debate to be entered on whether penalties at ruck time is a too high reward for a contentious facet of the game?

I don’t have the answers, I can only suggest that rucks should be officiated from the perspective that the team in possession should retain the possession unless the ball can actually be removed from the ruck by a defending player.

This leaning over, holding on, closing off, and whatever other subtle nuances the ruck brings up, produces a facet that is very difficult to referee consistently.

Why not have a free for all? If the defending team cannot secure the ball in a specific period of time, then either a scrum to the attacking team (yeah I know we don’t want more scrums) or tap kick start to the team attacking.

Penalties at the breakdown is a blight on the game for numerous reasons, players taking the micky out of the ruck laws, referees not being able to officate consistently etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:46 am

Would a free for all not just exacerbate the problem?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Jul 2021, 2:50 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:For instance, when Maro Itoje goes for a turnover, he often won't try to lift the ball. Instead, he pushes it into the turf. This has the double benefit of letting him lean, without looking like he's going off his feet, and also stops the attacking side from getting the ball away. To the referee, it can look like Itoje is trying to get the ball, while it is not being released by the attacking side.

This was the old Rory Best way of winning turnovers. Bodyweight on the ball appeal to ref, no one was going to be able to move him once he was clamped on. If the opportunity arose get the forearms on the floor for extra purchase. He took his career to another level with that technique. Itoje is no fool, he'll have watched what the officials like to penalise pre game and then try to play to the ref, he really does play right on the edge. He used to be amazing at using his boot to flick the ball out the ruck before that was banned as well.

There's been a big crackdown in the Prem on that sort of turnover and now it's a case of no lifting motion, no reward. Perhaps we'll see more of that this weekend from the officiating team. Got to say I thought the officials were consistent at the breakdown and both sides moaning about the officials is normally a sure sign they did a good job.

I'm really not sure Berry would have been happy with his job last weekend. Thought there was an awful lot missed on both sides. It happens though especially when there's so much riding on the match. The general point is completely correct however that when both sets of players are trying to bend the rules and frankly cheat then why should the ref be held to account for something he/she missed? I have less patience where they are consulting the TMO and still get things wrong (Watson) or just don't know the laws or interpretation however.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 30 Jul 2021, 3:36 am

protea438 wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I did think of watching the video, but then saw it's an hour long. I struggle to believe somebody has put time into that. I hope the Boks aren't too dehydrated, whilst Jaco/Rassie is neglecting his waterboy duties to do this.

It reminds me more of when Rafa Benitez presented his "facts". That was cringey and so is this.

So what are you basing things on, at least Rassie made the effort. I have more faith in a World Cup winning coach than random people on the internet when dealing with rugby related issues

The words "Sir Clive Woodward" Whistle

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Post by Old Man Fri 30 Jul 2021, 3:38 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
protea438 wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I did think of watching the video, but then saw it's an hour long. I struggle to believe somebody has put time into that. I hope the Boks aren't too dehydrated, whilst Jaco/Rassie is neglecting his waterboy duties to do this.

It reminds me more of when Rafa Benitez presented his "facts". That was cringey and so is this.

So what are you basing things on, at least Rassie made the effort. I have more faith in a World Cup winning coach than random people on the internet when dealing with rugby related issues

The words "Sir Clive Woodward" Whistle
Touché  laughing

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Post by EST Fri 30 Jul 2021, 3:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:McBride has just read out a prepared statement re Biggar's concussion protocols after Jones updated yesterday that Biggar had trained well all week. Did not answer the journalists question however on whether this meant that Biggar had trained or whether it was just a turn of phrase. Sounds like the Lions are playing fast and loose on health.

THis is from Walesonline on the Jones quotes yesterday:

How is Dan Biggar? Has he completed his return-to-play protocols after a HIA?

"I wasn’t aware he was carrying anything. As I can see, he has trained fully.

"I’m not part of the medical team so I can’t give you a full answer on that. The squad as a whole is important."

Has he trained much?

"As I already said, yes."




Confirmed that Faletau is the openside cover.

It's a very bad look, and really strange the captain doesn't know the starting 10 suffered a concussion.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 30 Jul 2021, 4:03 am

There's more than a hint of smokescreen about this - though in which direction I don't know.
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Post by The Oracle Fri 30 Jul 2021, 4:16 am

EST wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:McBride has just read out a prepared statement re Biggar's concussion protocols after Jones updated yesterday that Biggar had trained well all week. Did not answer the journalists question however on whether this meant that Biggar had trained or whether it was just a turn of phrase. Sounds like the Lions are playing fast and loose on health.

THis is from Walesonline on the Jones quotes yesterday:

How is Dan Biggar? Has he completed his return-to-play protocols after a HIA?

"I wasn’t aware he was carrying anything. As I can see, he has trained fully.

"I’m not part of the medical team so I can’t give you a full answer on that. The squad as a whole is important."

Has he trained much?

"As I already said, yes."




Confirmed that Faletau is the openside cover.

It's a very bad look, and really strange the captain doesn't know the starting 10 suffered a concussion.

Your main problem there is taking something WalesOnline has printed and assumed it is true/accurate. It’s a compete rag that often just copies and pastes stuff from other sites. I’d take it all with a pinch of salt. Plus, as others have said there is an element of smokescreens from the Lions. And thirdly, a number of posters questioned exactly where Dan Biggar picked up the head injury because no one seemed to see it and thought it might have been a bluff to allow Daly back on the pitch (which he couldn’t do if Biggar had a ‘normal’ injury). Overall, I’d say there is more to this than a ‘bad look’ from the captain.
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Post by MichaelT Fri 30 Jul 2021, 4:19 am

The Oracle wrote:And thirdly, a number of posters questioned exactly where Dan Biggar picked up the head injury because no one seemed to see it and thought it might have been a bluff to allow Daly back on the pitch (which he couldn’t do if Biggar had a ‘normal’ injury).

I thought Biggar hit his head when he hit the ground? I haven't watched that part again, but that's what I thought when the incident happened and then he went off for a HIA shortly afterwards.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Jul 2021, 4:22 am

The Oracle wrote:
EST wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:McBride has just read out a prepared statement re Biggar's concussion protocols after Jones updated yesterday that Biggar had trained well all week. Did not answer the journalists question however on whether this meant that Biggar had trained or whether it was just a turn of phrase. Sounds like the Lions are playing fast and loose on health.

THis is from Walesonline on the Jones quotes yesterday:

How is Dan Biggar? Has he completed his return-to-play protocols after a HIA?

"I wasn’t aware he was carrying anything. As I can see, he has trained fully.

"I’m not part of the medical team so I can’t give you a full answer on that. The squad as a whole is important."

Has he trained much?

"As I already said, yes."




Confirmed that Faletau is the openside cover.

It's a very bad look, and really strange the captain doesn't know the starting 10 suffered a concussion.

Your main problem there is taking something WalesOnline has printed and assumed it is true/accurate. It’s a compete rag that often just copies and pastes stuff from other sites. I’d take it all with a pinch of salt. Plus, as others have said there is an element of smokescreens from the Lions. And thirdly, a number of posters questioned exactly where Dan Biggar picked up the head injury because no one seemed to see it and thought it might have been a bluff to allow Daly back on the pitch (which he couldn’t do if Biggar had a ‘normal’ injury). Overall, I’d say there is more to this than a ‘bad look’ from the captain.

It's taken from the press conference so not made up. I suppose it is possible that the Lions have completely cheated ala Bloodgate too.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Jul 2021, 4:24 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-CVaX8hztk

This was the basis of the follow up question today. From 1 min. The quotes used are correct.

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