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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

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 South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 13 Empty South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

Post by George Carlin Sun 25 Jul 2021, 9:23 am

First topic message reminder :

 South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 13 A_10                   South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 13 Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 31 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant Referees: Nic Berry (Australia), Mathieu Raynal (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker ( Erm )

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 63 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 15 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 16 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 48 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain, Montpellier) – 50 caps, 477pts (6t, 78c, 93p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 31 caps, 25 pts (5t)

08 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap, 0 pts
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 52 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 41 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 87 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 38 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 49 caps, 5pts (1t)

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 35 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 44 caps, 5 pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Saracens) – 21 caps, 0 pts
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 46 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Marco van Staden (Vodacom Bulls) – 3 caps, 0 pts
21 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 8 caps, 5 pts (1t)
22 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 12 caps, 25 pts (5t)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 8 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790

01. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Taulupe Faletau (Bath Rugby, Wales) #779
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

PREVIEW:


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 29 Jul 2021, 8:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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 South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 13 Empty Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

Post by mikey_dragon Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:19 pm

R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I admit I didn’t see the Itoje knee to neck, maybe I’ll rewatch the game. If true then it’s not good, but somehow people will still find a way to blame it on AWJ so what’s the point?

Please stop the awj victim card on unrelated topics

You haven’t been paying attention (as usual). You’re still angry I see. Lol.

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Post by R!skysports Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:20 pm

Let’s stop worrying who we put in The back line unless we actually have a plan to use them

Today was just a vertical gatland ball and was found out to be a rubbish tactic


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Post by TightHEAD Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:22 pm

The same tactic was never going to work again, needed to show a bit more patients with ball in hand.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:23 pm

Third test is gonna be tasty

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:23 pm

Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

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Post by Old Man Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:24 pm

Our hospitals are overflowing with patients, but yeah patience would be much needed, earn the right to go wide

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Post by Old Man Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:25 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.
Alrighty then.

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Post by R!skysports Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:25 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I admit I didn’t see the Itoje knee to neck, maybe I’ll rewatch the game. If true then it’s not good, but somehow people will still find a way to blame it on AWJ so what’s the point?

Please stop the awj victim card on unrelated topics

You haven’t been paying attention (as usual). You’re still angry I see. Lol.

Why you think I am angry. Just bored of the usual looking for offence about awj and Wales

Still Not angry just disappointed that what we knew was likely to happen did. Rubbish tactics last week and picked a win. Same again and beaten easily


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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:27 pm

Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.
Alrighty then.

So you think that's comparable to DVDM driving PSDT into the ground and Kolbe taking Murray in the air?

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Post by Old Man Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:31 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.
Alrighty then.

So you think that's comparable to DVDM driving PSDT into the ground and Kolbe taking Murray in the air?
I am not judging the intentions of players, but rather concerned about your knowledge of the human anatomy. The chest and throat are seperate areas of the human body.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:34 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Sgt Pooly wrote:Watson struggled for the 1st time on tour
.
So what do you call last test (when he had the worst defensive stats of the whole Lions 23 i.e. 50% missed tackles, no more metres than DvdM, less carries, got turned over where DvdM made 2 TOs and conceded none, and finally totally out of position for the SA try)....a top performance Rolling Eyes

VDM missed 50% too (2/4). Had the same metres as Watson really, but if Watson had less carries, then he wins that stat. Watson also beat more defenders.

We are talking 1st test
Watson 50% tackle efficiency, DvdM 67%
Metres made - same
2nd Test
Tackles - made/missed - AW 0/1 DvdM 1/1
Turnovers - won/conceded - AW 0/3, DvdM 0/1
Handling errors - AW - 3, DvdM 1
Pens Conceded - AW 2, DvdM 1
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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:40 pm

R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I admit I didn’t see the Itoje knee to neck, maybe I’ll rewatch the game. If true then it’s not good, but somehow people will still find a way to blame it on AWJ so what’s the point?

Please stop the awj victim card on unrelated topics

You haven’t been paying attention (as usual). You’re still angry I see. Lol.

Why you think I am angry. Just bored of the usual looking for offence about awj  and Wales

Still Not angry just disappointed that what we knew was likely to happen did. Rubbish tactics last week and picked a win. Same again and beaten easily


It took place on this thread earlier today and it did last week. People will target him without reason. And to follow up on your other rant earlier; weren’t you the one angry in the 6N because not everyone picked VDM in their team? You still got this thing with Gatland too, and you’re criticising the backs. It’s as if you don’t realise that your very own Townsend is the backs coach.
Gatland is still one of the best in world rugby, Townsend isn’t and doesn’t seem to be adding much, at least from what I can tell. The much maligned Hogg hasn’t been great in both tests either. You usually criticise those affiliated with Wales so obviously people will hit you with some truth serum from time to time.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:42 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

Seriously you think he was the best Lions? Rolling Eyes
Turnovers won ZERO, Turnovers Conceded 1, handling errors 1, pens 1, lost as many lineouts as won.
His knee wasn't resting on his chest at all, watch it again
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Post by RiscaGame Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:42 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Sgt Pooly wrote:Watson struggled for the 1st time on tour
.
So what do you call last test (when he had the worst defensive stats of the whole Lions 23 i.e. 50% missed tackles, no more metres than DvdM, less carries, got turned over where DvdM made 2 TOs and conceded none, and finally totally out of position for the SA try)....a top performance Rolling Eyes

VDM missed 50% too (2/4). Had the same metres as Watson really, but if Watson had less carries, then he wins that stat. Watson also beat more defenders.

We are talking 1st test
Watson 50% tackle efficiency, DvdM 67%
Metres made - same
2nd Test
Tackles - made/missed - AW 0/1 DvdM 1/1
Turnovers - won/conceded - AW 0/3, DvdM 0/1
Handling errors - AW - 3, DvdM 1
Pens Conceded - AW 2, DvdM 1

I know fine well it’s first test you were on about. Where are your stats from for 67% success?

First test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593010&league=289234

Second test.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=593817&league=268565

Very selective of your stats again, to try and knock Watson. Second test on the link above has Watson as more metres ran again, same penalties conceded, no card etc.

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Post by Old Man Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:43 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

Seriously  you think he was the best Lions? Rolling Eyes
Turnovers won ZERO, Turnovers Conceded 1, handling errors 1, pens 1, lost as many lineouts as won.
His knee wasn't resting on his chest at all, watch it again
He also got a bit of love from Eben  Wink

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:45 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

Seriously  you think he was the best Lions? Rolling Eyes
Turnovers won ZERO, Turnovers Conceded 1, handling errors 1, pens 1, lost as many lineouts as won.
His knee wasn't resting on his chest at all, watch it again

Having watched the game I came to my opinion and his actual knee was in contact with De Allende it was his leg to be pedantic.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:47 pm

Well I’m not English but I think Itoje is class and is a top performer in every single game. It will trigger a few now doubt but I haven’t seen many better combo’s than Itoje, AWJ and Lawes.
Interesting to see LCD and Lawes put in and each do really well, when Eddie doesn’t seem to rate them as highly.

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Post by Old Man Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:47 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

Seriously  you think he was the best Lions? Rolling Eyes
Turnovers won ZERO, Turnovers Conceded 1, handling errors 1, pens 1, lost as many lineouts as won.
His knee wasn't resting on his chest at all, watch it again

Having watched the game I came to my opinion and his actual knee was in contact with De Allende it was his leg to be pedantic.
Which part of his leg?

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:55 pm

Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

Seriously  you think he was the best Lions? Rolling Eyes
Turnovers won ZERO, Turnovers Conceded 1, handling errors 1, pens 1, lost as many lineouts as won.
His knee wasn't resting on his chest at all, watch it again

Having watched the game I came to my opinion and his actual knee was in contact with De Allende it was his leg to be pedantic.
Which part of his leg?

Old Man
We know he hasn't watched the incident but here's one of the tabloids view on it;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/lions-maro-itoje-south-africa-24660834
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Post by Old Man Sat 31 Jul 2021, 10:59 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje was the best player for the Lions again today so to single him out for criticism is a bit odd. The leaning on De Allende's neck is a nonsense, he's resting his leg on his chest with no pressure whatsoever, if that's what we're highlighting from that game as dirty play then i'm lost. The optics aren't great but there's no actual risk of injury unlike other incidents in that game.

Seriously  you think he was the best Lions? Rolling Eyes
Turnovers won ZERO, Turnovers Conceded 1, handling errors 1, pens 1, lost as many lineouts as won.
His knee wasn't resting on his chest at all, watch it again

Having watched the game I came to my opinion and his actual knee was in contact with De Allende it was his leg to be pedantic.
Which part of his leg?

Old Man
We know he hasn't watched the incident but here's one of the tabloids view on it;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/lions-maro-itoje-south-africa-24660834
Cheers, I get what Soul Requiem is referring too.

the OTHER LEG laughing

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Post by lostinwales Sat 31 Jul 2021, 11:02 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Farrell and Smith shouldnt be on the tour. Theyre not up to it. The series would be already won if Sexton was selected. Big mistake by Gatland.

Back to comparing the guy who played against the one who didn't on best form. There are some serious questions over Farrell being on tour, but Sexton isn't the player he used to be, and its not the biggest surprise he didn't make it.

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Post by R!skysports Sat 31 Jul 2021, 11:03 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I admit I didn’t see the Itoje knee to neck, maybe I’ll rewatch the game. If true then it’s not good, but somehow people will still find a way to blame it on AWJ so what’s the point?

Please stop the awj victim card on unrelated topics

You haven’t been paying attention (as usual). You’re still angry I see. Lol.

Why you think I am angry. Just bored of the usual looking for offence about awj  and Wales

Still Not angry just disappointed that what we knew was likely to happen did. Rubbish tactics last week and picked a win. Same again and beaten easily


It took place on this thread earlier today and it did last week. People will target him without reason. And to follow up on your other rant earlier; weren’t you the one angry in the 6N because not everyone picked VDM in their team? You still got this thing with Gatland too, and you’re criticising the backs. It’s as if you don’t realise that your very own Townsend is the backs coach.
Gatland is still one of the best in world rugby, Townsend isn’t and doesn’t seem to be adding much, at least from what I can tell. The much maligned Hogg hasn’t been great in both tests either. You usually criticise those affiliated with Wales so obviously people will hit you with some truth serum from time to time.

What rubbish.

I say what I think I see and funnily enough including Scottish player. Your chip on shoulder means you see Welsh bashing around every corner.

I will prove it

Thought Sutherland had another poor game and if wj fit he should drop out

Hogg. Not point having him if the tactics boot the ball with no guile He had a tough one under the high ball and we dis not use the backs.

Vdm is poor under the high ball. So if that is the only tactic we have. Drop him. If we want to play real rugby and maybe get the ball to our wingers then he should be in consideration

Yes. I have never liked gatlands tactics and I think so very negative.

I think you see someone having an different of opinion as angry

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Post by RDW Sat 31 Jul 2021, 11:05 pm

Folks I'm going to lock this thread for a few hours - it's been a day of charged emotions and probably best to have lights out and off to bed!

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Post by RDW Sun 01 Aug 2021, 12:21 am

Thread's open again.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 01 Aug 2021, 12:28 am

Bit rough sending us off to bed at 11 O' clock in the morning.

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Post by RDW Sun 01 Aug 2021, 12:29 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Bit rough sending us off to bed at 11 O' clock in the morning.

Laugh

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Post by RDW Sun 01 Aug 2021, 1:56 am

Well that was a pretty dreadful game but ultimately a completely dominant South Africa win in the end. First half was pretty tight but both sides completely lost their heads at times. No surprise after the week we've had but it wasn't pretty.

Second half was one of the worst Lions performances in a long time - since 2005 maybe? Discipline collapsed. Stupid mistakes. Aimless kicking and just no answer to South African intensity. We looked beaten on 60 minutes. South Africa had a very strong second half and showed how dangerous they are when they combine their power with a bit of attacking play. The Lions didn't fire a shot all game.

On the controversial incidents - Kolbe should have been a red IMO. World Rugby released guidelines on these incidents and no where does it mention that 'eyes on the ball' makes any difference. If a player lands on their head it comes down to whether the offender was in a genuine position to catch the ball. I.e. if Kolbe had also jumped and got close to the ball - yellow. Given that he barely got off the ground and Murray was significantly higher than him, you can't say Kolbe was remotely close to contesting for the ball, therefore red. Also I think the ref needs an anatomy book as he seems to be mixing up the back and the face!

As for some of the other incidents - I thought the 2nd try was fine. There were so many off the ball incidents on both sides I won't be surprised if we see some citings. It would be sending a dangerous message if there weren't any. Social media is full of clips and photos of various incidents which should be looked at if the citing commissioner saw the same thing.

Ultimately though given the events of the last week and the feel of the game there's definitely a significant bad taste in the mouth about this series. I really hope we don't have the same fallout after this game but if anything I see it being intensified given how much controversy there was.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 01 Aug 2021, 4:04 am

I hate seeing red cards because they skew games, but there have been red cards for lesser incidents than Kolbe on Murray. I am sorry but every single time something like that happens you get the eye on the ball line, and it doesn't change that card colour.

Faf shoulder to Murray head also very cardable

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 01 Aug 2021, 4:23 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Interesting to see LCD and Lawes put in and each do really well, when Eddie doesn’t seem to rate them as highly.
Jones rates both. He started LCD over George in the last two 6N matches against France and Ireland. If anything England fans have been frustrated that Jones has played Lawes so much at flanker. The emergence of Curry & Underhill pushed him to the bench but he was back when Underhill got injured.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 7:12 am

lostinwales wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Farrell and Smith shouldnt be on the tour. Theyre not up to it. The series would be already won if Sexton was selected. Big mistake by Gatland.

Back to comparing the guy who played against the one who didn't on best form. There are some serious questions over Farrell being on tour, but Sexton isn't the player he used to be, and its not the biggest surprise he didn't make it.

Based on what? He was excellent in the 6 nations. Probably the best 10. This tour was made for a physical and tactical 10 like him.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 7:14 am

lostinwales wrote:I hate seeing red cards because they skew games, but there have been red cards for lesser incidents than Kolbe on Murray. I am sorry but every single time something like that happens you get the eye on the ball line, and it doesn't change that card colour.

Faf shoulder to Murray head also very cardable

Duhans tackle on DuToit was a lucky escape too.

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Post by The Oracle Sun 01 Aug 2021, 7:46 am

Controversial post coming up - (please read on if you are easily offended!) - what has Gregor Townsend done with the backs??? 2 tests now and the backs play has been woeful. Just so little invention, no penetration, kicking away possession in the opposition half, etc. I know Gatland will get the blame but I really don’t believe he is is overruling the backs coach and dictating the backs play. Wales didn’t even play like that under Gatland. In previous tours the backs coach has copped a lot of the blame for the backs moves rather than the head coach (Howley on the last tour, for example), and rightly so. The forwards I think have been good so far and have been standing up to the Boks’ physicality. But the backs.......disappointing. Not sure we can do much about it now but overall it’s been a real area of weakness for the Lions over the past 2 games.
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Post by eirebilly Sun 01 Aug 2021, 8:01 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Farrell and Smith shouldnt be on the tour. Theyre not up to it. The series would be already won if Sexton was selected. Big mistake by Gatland.

Back to comparing the guy who played against the one who didn't on best form. There are some serious questions over Farrell being on tour, but Sexton isn't the player he used to be, and its not the biggest surprise he didn't make it.

Based on what? He was excellent in the 6 nations. Probably the best 10. This tour was made for a physical and tactical 10 like him.

As much as i hate to agree with Collapse, he is bang on with this. Sexton is a massive miss at 10 for this tour. He is a very physical 10 but also a very controlling 10. More controlling than Biggar and would have managed the game far better from 10 than him. Anyway, mute point.

It was a poor enough game from the Lions and certainly makes for a very big 3rd test.

The centers need to be looked at, Henshaw is a shoe in but where 12 or 13? I would like to see him at 13 with Farrell/Aki at 12 and Smith at 10 (Smith has earnt this).

Liam Williams has to come into the team on one of the wings (probably for Watson).

I would start Sinckler as well.
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Post by eirebilly Sun 01 Aug 2021, 8:06 am

And, as an addition. I would bring in Price for Murray. He was desperately slow in getting to the breakdown during the game. It killed any momentum and led to a couple of turn overs.

He is great to come on and close a game out but not really a starter in the big games for me anymore.
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Post by TightHEAD Sun 01 Aug 2021, 8:59 am

Hogg has been given permission to leave the team hotel and wander around Cape Town

it’s unlikely that he’ll catch anything! Braveheart
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Post by BigGee Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:02 am

Well having slept on it and thought about it, I have not changed my mind that this was an awful game of rugby.

What were the Lion's coaches thinking about with that game plan, which seemed to assume that SA would fall away in the second half again and all we had to do was contain them for a half and the game was won.

We did not even pick the players who would have suited a game plan like that!

Can we now change it up to play a more expansive game in a week? That seems unlikely as well.

Is this part of a masterplan that thinks that the Boks can't get up for another big game next weekend? I am not sure that I would bet my mortgage on that happening either!

I don't know what we are going to do next wekend, but if we go out and play like that we will lose and will deserve to!

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Post by BigGee Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:07 am

The Oracle wrote:Controversial post coming up - (please read on if you are easily offended!) - what has Gregor Townsend done with the backs???  2 tests now and the backs play has been woeful. Just so little invention, no penetration, kicking away possession in the opposition half, etc. I know Gatland will get the blame but I really don’t believe he is is overruling the backs coach and dictating the backs play.  Wales didn’t even play like that under Gatland.  In previous tours the backs coach has copped a lot of the blame for the backs moves rather than the head coach (Howley on the last tour, for example), and rightly so. The forwards I think have been good so far and have been standing up to the Boks’ physicality. But the backs.......disappointing. Not sure we can do much about it now but overall it’s been a real area of weakness for the Lions over the past 2 games.

It is a fair point about the backs but I have never seen Toonie set up any of his teams to play like that, so you do have to ask where are the tactics coming from?

Toonie almost always plays with 2 playmakers, the Lions yesterday did not even seem to have 1!

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:22 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Farrell and Smith shouldnt be on the tour. Theyre not up to it. The series would be already won if Sexton was selected. Big mistake by Gatland.

Back to comparing the guy who played against the one who didn't on best form. There are some serious questions over Farrell being on tour, but Sexton isn't the player he used to be, and its not the biggest surprise he didn't make it.

Based on what? He was excellent in the 6 nations. Probably the best 10. This tour was made for a physical and tactical 10 like him.

He didn’t get picked because he’s always injured.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Should have been down to 13
The Lions? Yeah agree. One for DVDM and the other in retrospect for Watson for last week.

Er no. Sa were very lucky with the penalties etc.

The second half was a tactical masterclass. I don't think it's fair or correct to try and blame the officials for the incompetence of the Lions coaching team. They sent out a team with no plan B to try and beat the Boks at their own game. Really poor.

For next week the Lions are going to have to look at replacing both wingers as they were both found desperately wanting in the air. Liam Williams and Adams to come onto the wings. Russell at 10 is a must. We are too predictable. Murray can still operate the kicking game from 9 but we'd then have another option to keep the Boks honest. If Wyn Jones is fit then it's bye bye Sutherland as well.

Agree there Sam. Watson struggled for the 1st time on tour.....he made the attempts but tended to knock on too much. DVDM was just dreadful in defence.....yet again. The bomb which he missed and it bounced out for a Lions throw was typical....he struggles to even get in the right position to even contest! I honestly don't know how he's lasted this long tbh.
I think Gatland bargained on the fact that he would get opportunities to run over Kolbe, and sadly that hasn’t come to fruition once.

Well there should have been a gap there permanently today as well.

A winger like VDM needs service and he isn't getting any. He got a little last weekend and looked ok. Got none yesterday and therefore it looked pointless him being there. Exposed under the high ball which isn't what you have a winger like him for. If Russell or Smith is to come in it might be worth retaining him.

Watson was just flat out poor. Almost as bad as his appearance at Welford Rd earlier in the year where he looked scared to catch and had his pants pulled down by an academy grad in his first season. He bounced back in a big way from that and went into the 6N where he was fantastic. So there's very much a temptation to write him off after yesterday but he does have it in the locker to come bouncing back.

I'd certainly have Liam Williams on one wing just because he's handy in attack and will give us a lot more solidity under the high ball. I'd be tempted to have him opposite Mpimpi because he's the preferred kick chase option. If we're sticking with the kicking game he offers more in that department as well.

If we were going to go so kick chase heavy the exclusion of Johnny May looks really stupid. Reliable under the high ball and one of if not the best kick chase winger in the NH. I'd assumed we were looking for players more attack orientated so his non-selection didn't bother me so much as his form has dipped this season. Currently the exciting wings are not being used though.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:28 am

BigGee wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Controversial post coming up - (please read on if you are easily offended!) - what has Gregor Townsend done with the backs???  2 tests now and the backs play has been woeful. Just so little invention, no penetration, kicking away possession in the opposition half, etc. I know Gatland will get the blame but I really don’t believe he is is overruling the backs coach and dictating the backs play.  Wales didn’t even play like that under Gatland.  In previous tours the backs coach has copped a lot of the blame for the backs moves rather than the head coach (Howley on the last tour, for example), and rightly so. The forwards I think have been good so far and have been standing up to the Boks’ physicality. But the backs.......disappointing. Not sure we can do much about it now but overall it’s been a real area of weakness for the Lions over the past 2 games.

It is a fair point about the backs but I have never seen Toonie set up any of his teams to play like that, so you do have to ask where are the tactics coming from?

Toonie almost always plays with 2 playmakers, the Lions yesterday did not even seem to have 1!

To be fair any assistant coach is limited by what his head coach wants. Gatland likes direct rugby so it's then up to Toonie to adapt the attack within those parameters. So far it's a failure as there is nothing bar truck it up twice then kick.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:37 am

I don't think the players believed in the game plan, hopefully they have a meeting and tell Gats & Co how they are going to play the 3rd test.

Where were the quick lineouts etc, we were happy to stop and have a KitKat with SA at every opportunity. Should have been in the Refs ear that what SA were doing wasn't right and we want to get on with it.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:45 am

'Eyes on the ball' is irrelevant. The officiating team gave yellow because they believed Murray 'landed on his back'. Quite how they came to such a conclusion is beyond me.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:46 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Farrell and Smith shouldnt be on the tour. Theyre not up to it. The series would be already won if Sexton was selected. Big mistake by Gatland.

Back to comparing the guy who played against the one who didn't on best form. There are some serious questions over Farrell being on tour, but Sexton isn't the player he used to be, and its not the biggest surprise he didn't make it.

Based on what? He was excellent in the 6 nations. Probably the best 10. This tour was made for a physical and tactical 10 like him.

He didn’t get picked because he’s always injured.

Unlike the other 10s and the captain AWJ who are never injured? It was a dumb call from Gatland which he will regret Im sure. He had nothing to lose at all in picking him. Sexton like AWJ was in a position to leave it all out there knowing retirement was coming.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:46 am

TightHEAD wrote:I don't think the players believed in the game plan, hopefully they have a meeting and tell Gats & Co how they are going to play the 3rd test.

Where were the quick lineouts etc, we were happy to stop and have a KitKat with SA at every opportunity. Should have been in the Refs ear that what SA were doing wasn't right and we want to get on with it.

The game plan was clear to me, dominate SA in the forwards. It was working, however, the backs looked seriously unbalanced and that was the downfall.

As i said above, Murray was so pedestrian getting too and at the breakdown. This did not afford the backs much momentum. Biggar is not a game managing 10 (very good in his own way).

Dominate SA in the forwards and quick backline play is the way to go.

Lawes has been amazing this tour, i must add.
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Post by protea438 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:46 am

Then there is also this, granted not as clear cut as that thug Itoje, so some doubt here:

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/watch-did-hogg-bite-le-roux-1/

I know the horrid Mark Kehone (SAs Clive Woodward equivalent of irritating) tweeted about it

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:50 am

SQUAD

COACHES

THE LIONS TRUST

COMPETITIONS

SERIES WEBSITE

CONTACT US

BROADCAST

DIGITAL PARTY PACK

FANZONE

WARREN GATLAND COLUMN: SERIES DECIDER NOW OUR CUP FINAL

[more]

British & Irish Lions

31 JULY 2021 20:45 READING TIME: 3 MINS

South Africa bounced back from losing the opening Test to level the series against The British & Irish Lions and set up a winner-takes-all finale at Cape Town Stadium.

Head coach Warren Gatland gives his thoughts on his side’s 27-9 defeat and looks forward to the deciding final Test against the Springboks in his first-person column:

CUP FINAL NEXT WEEK

“We were happy at half-time but in the second half we just didn’t get anything going, no momentum, no real opportunity to play, nothing at all from the kick returns – whether from us or them.

“That was disappointing and we’ve probably also given away some penalties. In fairness to them, they scrummaged well in the second half and got some reward from that.

“As I say, we were happy with the way the first half had gone and felt going into half-time we’d carried well, we’d got forward momentum, but we didn’t achieve that at all in the second half.

“The players are obviously very disappointed but next Saturday is a cup final and that’s the way we’ve got to look at it and prepare. There are a few things we’ve got to tidy up.

“It’s 1-1 and South Africa put a huge amount of emotion into that game so now we’ve got that chance next week to hopefully secure the series win.”

DIFFICULT TO FIND RHYTHM

“It’s not long after the game and we will do a proper review of the match and look at individuals to see whether we do need to make some changes ahead of the final Test.

“I was happy with that first half performance and thought we were getting some reward out of that but we just didn’t get the bounce of the ball or anything in that second half.

“We weren’t able to create momentum and the game was very slow in terms of how often the clock was stopped and they did a good job managing that by slowing the game down.

“It was frustrating for us as it was difficult to get that rhythm because of how stop-start it was. That’s something we’ll look at next week, how we can get more tempo in the game.

“We were happy with our carrying the first half. The way South Africa defend and rush up is tough and there were a couple of opportunities where we should have put the ball through the hands.

“We could have looked to exploit that more and even on penalty advantages, they did a good job of not giving us that chance to play by slowing the ball down and going back for the penalty.

“We’ve just got to be aware of that and take advantage of that situation.”

SELECTION FOR FINAL TEST

“Selection has been really tough and there are a lot of players in the squad where it was a toss of a coin in terms of who we selected and who we didn’t, that’s credit to the players.

“The whole squad have worked incredibly hard and the non-23 did a great job this week in terms of helping the players prepare and we’ll spend the next couple of days reviewing the game.

“We’ll look at what we think is the best 23 to put out in the final Test – whether that’s some fresh faces who haven’t been involved in the first two games, as we have got lots of options.

“We have guys we can bring in to give us energy or momentum as well. Sometimes the game goes like that and we just got nothing out of it, while we got a lot out of it last week.

“In terms of the aerial battle, we knew that was coming and we worked on it during the week but sometimes that just happens and Liam Williams was disappointed to miss out.

“He’s one of those players who will come into contention as well as others as well. Or we can put that same team out and give them a chance to redeem themselves.”


That's from the Lions site. I know he's not going to give too much away or admit he got things wrong but from that I expect he's going to throw Liam Williams in there and either Russell or Smith.


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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:51 am

eirebilly wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I don't think the players believed in the game plan, hopefully they have a meeting and tell Gats & Co how they are going to play the 3rd test.

Where were the quick lineouts etc, we were happy to stop and have a KitKat with SA at every opportunity. Should have been in the Refs ear that what SA were doing wasn't right and we want to get on with it.

The game plan was clear to me, dominate SA in the forwards. It was working, however, the backs looked seriously unbalanced and that was the downfall.

As i said above, Murray was so pedestrian getting too and at the breakdown. This did not afford the backs much momentum. Biggar is not a game managing 10 (very good in his own way).

Dominate SA in the forwards and quick backline play is the way to go.

Lawes has been amazing this tour, i must add.

Murray was literally late to one breakdown, he has never had the quickest distribution but he had a decent game. Created the Lions only realistic scoring chance with a chip for Henshaw and his kicking and passing was good.

Thought Lawes has been good too, reliable, hardworking and has taken his chance but Im sure Beirne would have been too had he been given a chance.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:58 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by alive555 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:53 am

this test is being completely overshadowed by bad sportsmanship

Erasmus should be banned for a year. Odious individual.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:55 am

protea438 wrote:Then there is also this, granted not as clear cut as that thug Itoje, so some doubt here:

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/watch-did-hogg-bite-le-roux-1/

I know the horrid Mark Kehone (SAs Clive Woodward equivalent of irritating) tweeted about it

Protea there really isnt much in that Hogg thing at all. Itoje should have been penalised though IMO.

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Post by protea438 Sun 01 Aug 2021, 9:57 am

I am not going through all the posts, but can someone summarize how many red cards the dastardly Boks should have got and how many laws has this thread rewritten. Thanks

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