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South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August

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South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August - Page 10 Empty South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August

Post by RDW Sun 01 Aug 2021, 11:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August - Page 10 A_10                  South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August - Page 10 Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 7th August
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 02:00 Australia  Crying or Very sad
Cape Town Stadium
Sky Sports Main Event

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA
A very large bunch of blokes.

WAZZER'S WIZARDS

15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby, Wales) #836
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Wyn Jones (Scarlets, Wales) #842
02. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales) #852
20. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Finn Russell (Racing 92, Scotland) #835
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822


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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:26 pm

Have to shout kudos to Morne Steyn, was never my favourite player, but started his career by kicking the winning penalty in 2009 vs the Lions and did it again twelve years later.

How many Springboks have won two test series vs the Lions.

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Post by Pot Hale Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:26 pm

Congrats SA. The better team won over the series.

Gatland’s time is done. Not one of the better Lions squads.

Sexton should have toured - the 10s weren’t great. The scrum halves weren’t great either. And less said about fullbacks and general back-three aerial skills the better.
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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:26 pm

Northgrill wrote:Fair play to South Africa. Etzebeth was the man of the series from their point of view in my opinion. Best second row in the world at the moment.

Henshaw had a great series for the Lions. Probably our man of the series. Still feel he was unlucky to have that try chalked off in the second test.

I think Itoje was equally good for the Lions during the series

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Post by BigGee Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:26 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:It’s been a strange tour indeed. Perhaps it shouldn’t have went ahead in these circumstances, so can we get it replayed?

No thanks, happy to wait another 12 years for a series like that. Hopefully the world and rugby will be in a better place by then.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:27 pm

2 v 1 should be mandatory for all kids to learn by the time they leave the under 7s.

Liam what have you done??????
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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:28 pm

BigGee wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It’s been a strange tour indeed. Perhaps it shouldn’t have went ahead in these circumstances, so can we get it replayed?

No thanks, happy to wait another 12 years for a series like that. Hopefully the world and rugby will be in a better place by then.

Jip, personally the 2009 series were much better than this one. On and off the field.

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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:28 pm

PSDT and Faf were missed.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:29 pm

See yay Gatland
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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:29 pm

and Vermeulen, I am not impressed with Wiese at all.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:32 pm

TightHEAD wrote:See yay Gatland
Starting Lawes at 6 was interesting.

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Post by Northgrill Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:33 pm

I think I see why Gatland went with Porter in the original squad ahead of Kyle. Struggled in the scrums today and last week. Did well in the loose mind you. Small margins.

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Post by RiscaGame Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:33 pm

Congrats Old Man.

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Post by Northgrill Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:34 pm

Finn Russell was very impressive when he came on. Pity about his injury leading into the first 2 tests. If there was another test he’d be inked in at 10 for me.

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Post by R!skysports Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:35 pm

Northgrill wrote:Finn Russell was very impressive when he came on. Pity about his injury leading into the first 2 tests. If there was another test he’d be inked in at 10 for me.

Gatland would never have selected him though

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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:36 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Congrats Old Man.

Thanks, but not a series I enjoyed.

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Post by Northgrill Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:36 pm

R!skysports wrote:
Northgrill wrote:Finn Russell was very impressive when he came on. Pity about his injury leading into the first 2 tests. If there was another test he’d be inked in at 10 for me.

Gatland would never have selected him though

True. I wonder if he would have had him over Farrell on the bench in the first few tests. Don’t think he could have ignored him after today.

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Post by BigGee Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:39 pm

Northgrill wrote:Finn Russell was very impressive when he came on. Pity about his injury leading into the first 2 tests. If there was another test he’d be inked in at 10 for me.

Russell was fit last week, that was a selection call.


The only way Russell was ever going to get on was from an injury!

You have to say the whole attitude towards FR has been massively patronising all through this tour, even today, Greenwood was describing him as a maverick who can only play fast and loose. Russell is a much more rounded player than that, look at his kicking today, from the tee and from hand! The difference with Russell is his speed of vision and thought, he can see when thinghs are on and just does not play to a prescribed hymn sheet.

I am glad that he got his chance today and hopefully put a lot of the misconceptions about him behind him.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:46 pm

Looked better with Russell on, but outside of him we looked clueless.

If only Danny Care was on the pitch for the last 20mins.
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Post by R!skysports Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:49 pm

Sadly a test series that got away



A coach who was totally out of touch with the playing style of the players and totally out of touch with how to play. I can not over state how poor I think Gatland was on this tour

Terrible tactics

Poor selection for the terrible tactics

Undroppable  players who under performed

A thourely unforgettable series


Last edited by R!skysports on Sat 07 Aug 2021, 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by MichaelT Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:49 pm

Gatland just criticising Russell knock-on. Quite poor from him I thought. Have been a fan of Gatlands for what he achieved with Wales and the Lions before, but I think this tour has been one too many.

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Post by R!skysports Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

MichaelT wrote:Gatland just criticising Russell knock-on. Quite poor from him I thought. Have been a fan of Gatlands for what he achieved with Wales and the Lions before, but I think this tour has been one too many.

Really. What a fing joke if true

Blaming the players for his tactics seems a bit along a calling card for him




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Post by Duty281 Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Heaf wrote:
BigGee wrote:
Old Man wrote:commisseration Lions, I thought you were the better team tonight.

Not so sure about that Old Man, we never really worked out how we wanted to play unfortunately.

SA stayed in the game and scored a great try, hard to argue against that. If Pollard had kicked his goals, then it would not have been close.

Or if the Lions had taken the 3 tries they blew in the 1st half  it wouldn't have been close ...

True, if Williams plays that pass it probably ends up as a comfortable Lions win. He'll be regretting that.

Come off it! If, IF, a pass went out we’d win comfortably?! That’s a bit disrespectful towards SA for a start. Would they really have just capitulated just because of a pass and a try? Doubt it.

Would have made it 17-3, I think? South Africa wouldn't have come back from such a margin.

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Post by R!skysports Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:54 pm

One thing we have learnt is our whole squad is rubbish under the high ball

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Post by RiscaGame Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:55 pm

Old Man wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:Congrats Old Man.

Thanks, but not a series I enjoyed.

Nah, me neither. But still it was a series that had to be won.

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Post by cb Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:55 pm

With hindsight the team should have been based around Russell but as was remarked Russell only ever got on the field because of injury.

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Post by MichaelT Sat 07 Aug 2021, 7:57 pm

R!skysports wrote:
MichaelT wrote:Gatland just criticising Russell knock-on. Quite poor from him I thought. Have been a fan of Gatlands for what he achieved with Wales and the Lions before, but I think this tour has been one too many.

Really. What a fing joke if true

Blaming the players for his tactics seems a bit along a calling card for him

Yeah, the interviewer said Finn Russell was good amd Gatland answered yeah but then he knocked the ball on, and he also commented on Liam Williams not passing. Not sure if he congratulated South Africa either.

People criticise Eddie Jones but he is the first to congratulate the other team when England get beat.

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Post by RiscaGame Sat 07 Aug 2021, 8:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Heaf wrote:
BigGee wrote:
Old Man wrote:commisseration Lions, I thought you were the better team tonight.

Not so sure about that Old Man, we never really worked out how we wanted to play unfortunately.

SA stayed in the game and scored a great try, hard to argue against that. If Pollard had kicked his goals, then it would not have been close.

Or if the Lions had taken the 3 tries they blew in the 1st half  it wouldn't have been close ...

True, if Williams plays that pass it probably ends up as a comfortable Lions win. He'll be regretting that.

Come off it! If, IF, a pass went out we’d win comfortably?! That’s a bit disrespectful towards SA for a start. Would they really have just capitulated just because of a pass and a try? Doubt it.

Would have made it 17-3, I think? South Africa wouldn't have come back from such a margin.

That was bad. Curry’s penalty as our maul looked well placed to go over was needless. There’s a lot we blew there.

It will be interesting to see who has the head coach gig next time. Lions only scoring two tries all series (I think) and both driving mauls is poor.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 07 Aug 2021, 8:00 pm

Typical it was Kolbe who scored, should have been serving a ban.

Maybe next tour World Rugby should sort their Poopie out.
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Post by The Oracle Sat 07 Aug 2021, 8:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Heaf wrote:
BigGee wrote:
Old Man wrote:commisseration Lions, I thought you were the better team tonight.

Not so sure about that Old Man, we never really worked out how we wanted to play unfortunately.

SA stayed in the game and scored a great try, hard to argue against that. If Pollard had kicked his goals, then it would not have been close.

Or if the Lions had taken the 3 tries they blew in the 1st half  it wouldn't have been close ...

True, if Williams plays that pass it probably ends up as a comfortable Lions win. He'll be regretting that.

Come off it! If, IF, a pass went out we’d win comfortably?! That’s a bit disrespectful towards SA for a start. Would they really have just capitulated just because of a pass and a try? Doubt it.

Would have made it 17-3, I think? South Africa wouldn't have come back from such a margin.

Why not? They came back to score 21 unanswered points last week, so not exactly impossible. A bit of a stretch to say we’d definitely have won it comfortably. No offence, but a bit of hyperbole I feel Hug
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Post by R!skysports Sat 07 Aug 2021, 8:34 pm

What seemed to be up with our full backs this tour

Hogg bad. Williams even worst

Seems a place of strength went down hill very quickly

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:05 pm

I just wish coaches would stop telling players to box kick it from anywhere but the 22. Give it to the forwards to truck it up, recycle and go again. That's their meat and drink. But oh, no, Gatland wanted to punt it up field down the throat of the most elusive winger in world rugby.

I don't get why we HAVE to kick it away - it's infuriating to watch as the other side almost always ends up with the ball. You can't play rugby without the ball. Hasn't Gatland learned anything from 2 Lions Tours and the failure of Eddie Jones' terrible kicking tactics in the 6 Nations?

I think box kicks should be banned outside the 22 Whistle

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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:11 pm

What gets to me about box kicks is the preparation time.

I would like to see box kicks be sped up, once the ball is secured the halfback must play the ball immediately

That will reduce box kicks a lot, scrumhalves will have to get the ball in play more as he won’t have the opportunity to wait for the caterpillar to be formed, box kick at your own peril then

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:12 pm

Old Man wrote:and Vermeulen, I am not impressed with Wiese at all.

I thought he did a decent job. Big hits in defence, defused the Lions box kicking game and a willing carrier. He does play on the edge and a lack of experience at international level did mean he gave a couple of pens away. Is this is third or fourth test? Hard to compare that to Vermeulen at more than ten times that. The big man needs an understudy to be his successor, generally Weise kept a lid on his temper which hasn't always been the case.

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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:20 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Old Man wrote:and Vermeulen, I am not impressed with Wiese at all.

I thought he did a decent job. Big hits in defence, defused the Lions box kicking game and a willing carrier. He does play on the edge and a lack of experience at international level did mean he gave a couple of pens away. Is this is third or fourth test? Hard to compare that to Vermeulen at more than ten times that. The big man needs an understudy to be his successor, generally Weise kept a lid on his temper which hasn't always been the case.

If you look at Vermeulen, he is solid under the high ball, he is immensely strong, he is a great organiser in defence, never takes a step back, wins the odd lineout, and he makes good decisions.

Wiese is inexperienced yes, but his discipline and decision making is poor. He isn’t as secure as Vermeulen under the high ball, and his tackling technique poor. He also doesn’t have the physical presence Vermeulen has.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:20 pm

And so the blaming of players from other countries begins

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Post by The Oracle Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:24 pm

lostinwales wrote:And so the blaming of players from other countries begins

Yup Sad
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Post by Old Man Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:26 pm

The Oracle wrote:
lostinwales wrote:And so the blaming of players from other countries begins

Yup Sad

I am going to blame Wiese, he plays in Europe, and I am going to blame CJ Stander, he was there when RG Snyman got burned Sad

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Post by BigGee Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:30 pm

lostinwales wrote:And so the blaming of players from other countries begins


I think you will find it started a few weeks ago!

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Post by R!skysports Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:33 pm

lostinwales wrote:And so the blaming of players from other countries begins

There were enough players from all countries that had poor performances so we can blame the grinch instead:)

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Post by Exiledinborders Sat 07 Aug 2021, 9:54 pm

The whole tour has been a thoroughly miserable experience all round with nothing good to remember.I hope nobody in the Rugby hierarchy thinks that the Lions are a showcase for the game.

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Post by BigGee Sat 07 Aug 2021, 10:06 pm

There will have to be a serious post mortem about this Lions tour a little while down the line, especially with Australia up next, with even potentially even weaker provincial opposition prior to the Tests.

This tour had some unique issues no doubt, which hopefully won't be there in 4 years time, but it was not a great advertisement for rugby, that is for sure.

I like the concept of the Lions and I have waited a long time for a tour that I felt fully invested in, but it was disappointing and not just because we lost. I hope they take any lessons learnt and incorporate them into the next tour as I do worry just how the Lions fit into modern professional rugby and there is always a danger that they will struggle to keep themselves relevant.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 07 Aug 2021, 10:18 pm

I agree BigGee. I’ve always been the staunchest of supporters. But even I am starting to question it. Not because of the losses (although they don’t help Wink ). I absolutely love the concept. But am questioning whether it puts the individual nations at a disadvantage when it comes to building towards their ‘bread and butter’ competitions (6N, World Cup). No one else outside the B&I has to go through that disruption. I’ve argued the opposite before, but not too proud to admit I was wrong.
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Post by alive555 Sat 07 Aug 2021, 10:52 pm

Good news

All the bs about the personell, and not the tactics went to bed

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Post by The Oracle Sat 07 Aug 2021, 11:12 pm

alive555 wrote:Good news

All the bs about the personell, and not the tactics went to bed

Bit of both I’d say Smile
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Post by lostinwales Sat 07 Aug 2021, 11:18 pm

I am very mixed about the concept - but of course what this series really really missed was the fans.

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Post by RDW Sat 07 Aug 2021, 11:32 pm

Ah feck.

Really pleased for Finn though - we Scotland fans have been trying to say for a long time that the 'maverick' tag isn't overly accurate or fair anymore and it sounds like it was a strong performance from him. I wonder how the test series would have planned out if he'd been involved from the start - not just him as an individual but the fact that his presence would have led to a more attacking style. We basically tried to beat SA at their own game and that just hasn't worked (although came very close).

I'm still to watch the game but agree with the general sentiment that I love the Lions but I'm also glad this series is over.

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South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August - Page 10 Empty Re: South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August

Post by RDW Sun 08 Aug 2021, 6:34 am

French refs love a bit of end of test series drama eh! John Barclay plus a few other ex pros questioning if it was right for the ref to give an immediate pen at that last scrum, particularly when it was the classic toss a coin decisions from a scrum immediately collapsing. It didn't really show a feel for the game and the enormity of the situation, especially as there had been earlier scrum drops throughout the game that were just re-set. He also bottled giving a pen at the ruck before the scrum - it should either have been holding on pen for SA or playing the ball in a ruck pen for the Lions. He froze and called scrum. Rugby laws are a funny old beast to try and understand sometimes.

Saying that, I think Finn (who was outstanding) should have had a yellow - there was head contact so the mitigation should have brought it down to a yellow from a red.

The most contentious tactical points for me were the continual decisions to kick to corner. These are the ultimate hindsight debates as if it pays off it looks like a masterstroke, but I didn't get the decision making behind these.

The first one I can understand as we had a lot of momentum and worked hard to get there. The 2nd and 3rd were easy pens without having to expend any effort so should have been a smash and grab easy 3 points. The 3rd in particular came immediately after SA just scored 3 themselves so would have killed their momentum.

Then there was the one late in the 2nd half to even up the score - you've got to take those.

Of course we will never know what would have happened otherwise - indeed we should have scored off the 2nd one if it wasn't for Curry's brainfart - but I don't think they were good decisions. It's not like we were running in tries for fun either and it was always going to be a close game.

Take the points!


Last edited by RDW on Sun 08 Aug 2021, 6:45 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Old Man Sun 08 Aug 2021, 6:40 am

There was a period just before Kolbe’s try where Pollard couldn’t hit a barndoor from five meters out, the Boks made a host of unforced errors on attack and I thought that was the game done and dusted.

I think both teams made errors in decision making during the match.

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Post by Galted Sun 08 Aug 2021, 7:33 am

'The more things change, the Morne Steyn the same.'
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 08 Aug 2021, 7:46 am

Old Man wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Old Man wrote:and Vermeulen, I am not impressed with Wiese at all.

I thought he did a decent job. Big hits in defence, defused the Lions box kicking game and a willing carrier. He does play on the edge and a lack of experience at international level did mean he gave a couple of pens away. Is this is third or fourth test? Hard to compare that to Vermeulen at more than ten times that. The big man needs an understudy to be his successor, generally Weise kept a lid on his temper which hasn't always been the case.

If you look at Vermeulen, he is solid under the high ball, he is immensely strong, he is a great organiser in defence, never takes a step back, wins the odd lineout, and he makes good decisions.

Wiese is inexperienced yes, but his discipline and decision making is poor. He isn’t as secure as Vermeulen under the high ball, and his tackling technique poor. He also doesn’t have the physical presence Vermeulen has.

Yeah the Weise tackling technique has actually improved but it still owes a lot to his eagerness to make contact more than a defined thought process. He did smash a few Lions who seemed to be about the go through a gap. His cover work was very good and not what we've seen in the Prem. The Tigers coaches have made sure the tackles are actually below head height now.

For all the good write ups he's had in the past season he's been very much a rough diamond. A late bloomer Borthwick has been working on as Weise was a hit first think later type and you still see that in some of his decision making. It's whether Rassie wants to keep working on him with a view to the long term or not. He's not as big as Vermeulen so is unlikely to ever have the natural power but he is quick and if the Boks want to play a little more than Weise could offer a line break option. We'll happily have him back at Leicester early for more game time if Rassie wants to go with Vermeulen Vs Aus/NZ/Arg. Depends if the Boks have a Vermeulen monster sized 8 to work with or not.

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