South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August

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SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 7th August
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 02:00 Australia  
Cape Town Stadium
Sky Sports Main Event

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA
A very large bunch of blokes.

WAZZER'S WIZARDS

15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby, Wales) #836
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Wyn Jones (Scarlets, Wales) #842
02. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales) #852
20. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Finn Russell (Racing 92, Scotland) #835
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

Old Man wrote:It will be a sad day when Lions tours are no more, whilst money may be the major driver in these times, it is really the only traditional tour still alive.

South Africans love the Lions touring here

I agree. I like the Lions because it's different. I like the 6 Nations because it's different too. There's too much of a push to make everything equal, inclusive, etc. Calls for the 6 Nations to be changed because it is a closed shop and doesn't include everyone else in Europe. Calls for changes to make it home and away because that's 'fairer'. Just leave them as they are as long as they are commercially viable and generates crowds. If everything becomes a huge tournament that includes everyone, has home and away, pools, etc. it just all morphs into one and becomes boring. It's the quirky things like the Lions tours that stand out in a crowd of other things that are just carbon copies of each other.

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:It will be a sad day when Lions tours are no more, whilst money may be the major driver in these times, it is really the only traditional tour still alive.

South Africans love the Lions touring here

I agree.  I like the Lions because it's different.  I like the 6 Nations because it's different too.  There's too much of a push to make everything equal, inclusive, etc.  Calls for the 6 Nations to be changed because it is a closed shop and doesn't include everyone else in Europe.  Calls for changes to make it home and away because that's 'fairer'.  Just leave them as they are as long as they are commercially viable and generates crowds.  If everything becomes a huge tournament that includes everyone, has home and away, pools, etc. it just all morphs into one and becomes boring.  It's the quirky things like the Lions tours that stand out in a crowd of other things that are just carbon copies of each other.

Yes, the uniqueness of the Lions tours is what makes it so attractive, there is nothing else like it.

Before people start championing Ronan O'Gara as the next Lions head/assistant coach, it might be worth seeing how he gets on as director of rugby at La Rochelle. Jono Gibbs has returned to Clermont, taking a few of his key backroom staff with him. Gibbs changed the fitness and mentality of the players and Rog added the details to the attack and defence. It certainly helped that they were able to secure the services of Will Skelton and that Gregory Alldritt has turned into a top class no. 8 in the last couple of seasons.
Lets remember that on the Sky Lions programs he was still saying he would select Farrell over Russell because he was a proven winner and a "test match animal".
I think the jury should still be out on Monsieur O'Gara.

Well it seemed madness not to pick Farrell at 12. And given each of the other midfield pairings were quickly changed it just seemed the coaches had no idea what to do there.

Itoje unsurprisingly picks up player of the series.

Well done to the Boks and Morne Steyn. Wasnt a bad tour, maybe not the greatest. Qudos to Warren Gatland for 3 good tours, hopefully his last though.

I also think its probably time to wind up the Lions and just accept it is now a relic of the past. Im not sure if there is any real benefit to the individual countries involved aside from the host nation obviously.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Itoje unsurprisingly picks up player of the series.

Should have been Phil Vickery

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it seemed madness not to pick Farrell at 12. And given each of the other midfield pairings were quickly changed it just seemed the coaches had no idea what to do there.

Really? Farrell should have started at 12. I think ROG was actually suggesting OFarrell should have started at 10 ahead of Russell. Do you think Farrell would have been able to take the Lions within three points of a win, or would he have done even better and orchestrated a win using his unique skill set?

I'd have had Russell at 10 if fit and farell at 12 fitness permitting. Farrell is a class fly half though.

Sorry, are we talking about Owen Farrell?? He hasn't played well since the Sarries pack had him sitting in that arm chair.

Farrell shouldn't have toured. The gamble was that he'd shake off the rancid form and his experience would prevail. Class being permanent and all that.

He's a warrior. Has played 10 and 12 at the highest level. Scored points for fun and wrongly caracatured as a solid but uncreative fly half. Still, on horrid form and frankly shouldn't be in the England XV right now, let alone close to the Lions. I say all this as a huge fan. He needs to regain form and mojo, before troubling international rugby. It's been too long since he's played to full potential.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sorry, are we talking about Owen Farrell?? He hasn't played well since the Sarries pack had him sitting in that arm chair.

Farrell shouldn't have toured. The gamble was that he'd shake off the rancid form and his experience would prevail. Class being permanent and all that.

He's a warrior. Has played 10 and 12 at the highest level. Scored points for fun and wrongly caracatured as a solid but uncreative fly half. Still, on horrid form and frankly shouldn't be in the England XV right now, let alone close to the Lions. I say all this as a huge fan. He needs to regain form and mojo, before troubling international rugby. It's been too long since he's played to full potential.

He has also played a lot of Rugby by now.  I have never been the biggest Farrell fan, but the expression 'it ain't the years, but the mileage' comes to mind.

And I agree, he shouldn't have toured. I wonder if Eddie Jones has the cojones to rest him for the Autumn.

doctor_grey wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sorry, are we talking about Owen Farrell?? He hasn't played well since the Sarries pack had him sitting in that arm chair.

Farrell shouldn't have toured. The gamble was that he'd shake off the rancid form and his experience would prevail. Class being permanent and all that.

He's a warrior. Has played 10 and 12 at the highest level. Scored points for fun and wrongly caracatured as a solid but uncreative fly half. Still, on horrid form and frankly shouldn't be in the England XV right now, let alone close to the Lions. I say all this as a huge fan. He needs to regain form and mojo, before troubling international rugby. It's been too long since he's played to full potential.

He has also played a lot of Rugby by now.  I have never been the biggest Farrell fan, but the expression 'it ain't the years, but the mileage' comes to mind.

And I agree, he shouldn't have toured.  I wonder if Eddie Jones has the cojones to rest him for the Autumn.

If he didn't drop big Billy for the 6 N's when he was horrendously out of shape, can't see him dropping Farrell, especially as he toured and benched for two tests. Plus Sarries are back in the big boys league.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sorry, are we talking about Owen Farrell?? He hasn't played well since the Sarries pack had him sitting in that arm chair.

Farrell shouldn't have toured. The gamble was that he'd shake off the rancid form and his experience would prevail. Class being permanent and all that.

He's a warrior. Has played 10 and 12 at the highest level. Scored points for fun and wrongly caracatured as a solid but uncreative fly half. Still, on horrid form and frankly shouldn't be in the England XV right now, let alone close to the Lions. I say all this as a huge fan. He needs to regain form and mojo, before troubling international rugby. It's been too long since he's played to full potential.

Nah. He should have been in there. Needed more than one play maker in there. It was supposed to be Hogg which didn't work and non of the midfield combos worked whatsoever.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sorry, are we talking about Owen Farrell?? He hasn't played well since the Sarries pack had him sitting in that arm chair.

Farrell shouldn't have toured. The gamble was that he'd shake off the rancid form and his experience would prevail. Class being permanent and all that.

He's a warrior. Has played 10 and 12 at the highest level. Scored points for fun and wrongly caracatured as a solid but uncreative fly half. Still, on horrid form and frankly shouldn't be in the England XV right now, let alone close to the Lions. I say all this as a huge fan. He needs to regain form and mojo, before troubling international rugby. It's been too long since he's played to full potential.

Nah. He should have been in there. Needed more than one play maker in there. It was supposed to be Hogg which didn't work and non of the midfield combos worked whatsoever.

If Gatland had played / been able to play a proper playmaker at 10 there is no need for a second playmaker

Gatland was to conservative with his gameplan and selection IMO

Agree on the second point but it's just my personal preference to have a second playmaker in midfield. Think it's gives a lot more attacking options to split the attack and allow the fly half more time. It also better to have a second guy who helps to call plays after scanning the field himself. Think Gatland thought Daly was that guy which was never the case imo. One of the good things to come out of this tour for England is that Jones really doesn't have to worry about trying that out.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Agree on the second point but it's just my personal preference to have a second playmaker in midfield. Think it's gives a lot more attacking options to split the attack and allow the fly half more time. It also better to have a second guy who helps to call plays after scanning the field himself. Think Gatland thought Daly was that guy which was never the case imo. One of the good things to come out of this tour for England is that Jones really doesn't have to worry about trying that out.

Its strange because in the Scotland set up, Hogg usually fills in that 2nd play maker role so considering Townsend was in the coaching staff i'd of expected to see the same in attack?

Might be down to a difference in fly halfs, Biggar rarely carries the ball himself in to space/contact whereas Russell is more prone to having a shot and thats when Hogg usually dives in

No more Gatland please!

sensisball wrote:Before people start championing Ronan O'Gara as the next Lions head/assistant coach, it might be worth seeing how he gets on as director of rugby at La Rochelle. Jono Gibbs has returned to Clermont, taking a few of his key backroom staff with him. Gibbs changed the fitness and mentality of the players and Rog added the details to the attack and defence. It certainly helped that they were able to secure the services of Will Skelton and that Gregory Alldritt has turned into a top class no. 8 in the last couple of seasons.
Lets remember that on the Sky Lions programs he was still saying he would select Farrell over Russell because he was a proven winner and a "test match animal".
I think the jury should still be out on Monsieur O'Gara.

+1
La Rochelle were very poor in their 2 finals.

I haven't still wrapped my head around the whole tour and the Lions selections and performances.  But I would say this:
We had a test series, which in and of itself, was a phenomenal achievement.
The Boks played themselves into game shape and were clearly up for the challenge and took the win.  Steyn kicking the winning points was somehow poetic.
The shenanigans by Rassie and whomever else on either side was only a distraction for the fans - I think the players were focusing on what they needed to to to prepare and didn't give a toss.  In fact, I would bet they found it amusing.
I don't think this tarnished the Lions brand at all.  This was the Covid tour, and any tour was better than none, considering the entire world is in the worst shape since the second world war.    
The shame of it all is I think a big part of the tour is about the travelling fans rubbing elbows with people in countries they would rarely visit if at all.  And everyone on all sides with the Rugby in common.  
I agree it is time for new leadership at the Lions.  Gatland, whether one appreciates his body of work or not, has served his tours and this is a perfect time for a new team.  Also I think the Lions tour and brand does need to be comtemporised a bit.  Perhaps include a tour to Argentina, which is such a great country and would be off the charts, with some prelims against some other sides.  
But we have to be mindful abut flogging our players.  They all still play far too much Rugby and an extended tour does not help.  The big picture lies with World Rugby and all the stakeholders, and none want to miss an opportunity to make some money (on the backs of our players).
Just some random thoughts....

Looks like PSDT is out for the season after his shoulder injury in the second test, he had an operation on Monday, but Nienaber says it is oikely we won’t see him for the rest of the season.

It was a bad tackle in my view

For those interested is the report released on the alleged Kyle Sinckler biting incident

Old Man wrote:For those interested is the report released on the alleged Kyle Sinckler biting incident

Interesting. Mostert had Sinckler in a head lock and what happened after may well be down to his forearm being rammed into Sinckler's mouth. Reminds me of a certain Ferris/Hartley incident...

Presumably the allegation of biting against Hogg was also dismissed as unfounded?

lostinwales wrote:

Old Man wrote:For those interested is the report released on the alleged Kyle Sinckler biting incident

Interesting. Mostert had Sinckler in a head lock and what happened after may well be down to his forearm being rammed into Sinckler's mouth. Reminds me of a certain Ferris/Hartley incident...

Was that the one where the player (Ferris) insisted that the bite had broken the skin but the statement from the Irish medic contradicted the level of injury to just a small mark? Or was that a different one.

Heaf wrote:Presumably the allegation of biting against Hogg was also dismissed as unfounded?

He wasn’t cited

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Old Man wrote:For those interested is the report released on the alleged Kyle Sinckler biting incident

Interesting. Mostert had Sinckler in a head lock and what happened after may well be down to his forearm being rammed into Sinckler's mouth. Reminds me of a certain Ferris/Hartley incident...

Was that the one where the player (Ferris) insisted that the bite had broken the skin but the statement from the Irish medic contradicted the level of injury to just a small mark? Or was that a different one.

Fishooks, bans, crying to the ref. Didn't do the reputation of two otherwise very fine players any good at all.

Old Man wrote:

Heaf wrote:Presumably the allegation of biting against Hogg was also dismissed as unfounded?

He wasn’t cited

Bad wording on my part - I meant did we hear any more about what supposedly happened after the allegation was made and Hogg strenuously denied it ... eg any sort of explanation like the one for the other 'incident'.

Haven’t seen any news on it

lostinwales wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Old Man wrote:For those interested is the report released on the alleged Kyle Sinckler biting incident

Interesting. Mostert had Sinckler in a head lock and what happened after may well be down to his forearm being rammed into Sinckler's mouth. Reminds me of a certain Ferris/Hartley incident...

Was that the one where the player (Ferris) insisted that the bite had broken the skin but the statement from the Irish medic contradicted the level of injury to just a small mark? Or was that a different one.

Fishooks, bans, crying to the ref. Didn't do the reputation of two otherwise very fine players any good at all.

fishook

Old Man wrote:Haven’t seen any news on it

Perhaps because there is no news on a non event!

BigGee wrote:

Old Man wrote:Haven’t seen any news on it

Perhaps because there is no news on a non event!

Yip

Collapse2005 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Old Man wrote:For those interested is the report released on the alleged Kyle Sinckler biting incident

Interesting. Mostert had Sinckler in a head lock and what happened after may well be down to his forearm being rammed into Sinckler's mouth. Reminds me of a certain Ferris/Hartley incident...

Was that the one where the player (Ferris) insisted that the bite had broken the skin but the statement from the Irish medic contradicted the level of injury to just a small mark? Or was that a different one.

Fishooks, bans, crying to the ref. Didn't do the reputation of two otherwise very fine players any good at all.

fishook  

Fish hook - happier? It may have been accidental on Ferris's part but he had control over where he put his hands. Hartley was effectively stuck in the ruck

Of course Hartley was the victim

I don't think either were blameless. You don't put your fingers in someone's mouth at the bottom of a ruck to play friends!

Collapse2005 wrote:Of course Hartley was the victim

I didn't say that.

Well as the dust settles and we look forward to more rugby I am still struggling to understand how we lost that final test..

The first half we were so dominant and had such clear chances that we should have been out of sight by half time.

Fair play to the SA who managed to final a way to change the tempo and claw they way back into it and then find a way to get the winning score. Well done

So how we look at this tour, seems the words being saying is “ missed opportunity “, regret and tactics.

For me, I look at the tour and think it we had the players to take this tour, but we’re let down by a poor coach who did not have the tactical nouse to change his style, relying on an outdated style that worked in the past.

Sadly a majority of people before the tour predicted this would happen, but we had hope when the first test side was picked and there looked like some attacking flair was going to happen. Sadly the game plan was not to be.

Yes, some players did not play take their chances and we struggled in the back 3 (regardless of who was selected), but you could see that the game plan was forcing players to play a way they did not want or could not play.

Sadly this has put a nail in the coffin of the lions and unless the powers that be really look at it for the next one or we could in danger of losing this. (Scheduling, coaches and style)

IMO, this lions was as bad as the 2005 tour to NZ and that is worrying

Fingers crossed and let’s get back enjoying the

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think either were blameless. You don't put your fingers in someone's mouth at the bottom of a ruck to play friends!

Ferris denied in his statement putting his fingers in Hartley's mouth. You are just chosing to believe Hartley's account a guy with one of the longest rap sheets in history vs a guy with a very clean history.

There was no evidence ever found that there was damage to Hartley's mouth nor gums etc. Fish hooking was something Hartley made up to avoid a ban such was his character and English fans lapped up at the time.

There was bite marks on Ferris' fingers for which Hartley an 8 week ban. There was zero physical nor video evidence ever found of any wrong doing by Ferris.

Fairly pathetic attempts to position Hartley as a victim such an attempt to discredit Ferris as the doctor noted three bite marks vs Ferris' account of four. It was all really pathetic stuff.

I think people will be happier about the Lions again when we go down under and win the series. All the doom and gloom will be gone, although the whole idea is rightly being questioned.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think either were blameless. You don't put your fingers in someone's mouth at the bottom of a ruck to play friends!

Ferris denied in his statement putting his fingers in Hartley's mouth. You are just chosing to believe Hartley's account a guy with one of the longest rap sheets in history vs a guy with a very clean history.

There was no evidence ever found that there was damage to Hartley's mouth nor gums etc. Fish hooking was something Hartley made up to avoid a ban such was his character and English fans lapped up at the time.

There was bite marks on Ferris' fingers for which Hartley an 8 week ban. There was zero physical nor video evidence ever found of any wrong doing by Ferris.

Fairly pathetic attempts to position Hartley as a victim such an attempt to discredit Ferris as the doctor noted three bite marks vs Ferris' account of four. It was all really pathetic stuff.

Lol. Right you are.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think people will be happier about the Lions again when we go down under and win the series. All the doom and gloom will be gone, although the whole idea is rightly being questioned.

We're in the professional era. It makes a tonne of money so it ain't going anywhere.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think either were blameless. You don't put your fingers in someone's mouth at the bottom of a ruck to play friends!

Ferris denied in his statement putting his fingers in Hartley's mouth. You are just chosing to believe Hartley's account a guy with one of the longest rap sheets in history vs a guy with a very clean history.

There was no evidence ever found that there was damage to Hartley's mouth nor gums etc. Fish hooking was something Hartley made up to avoid a ban such was his character and English fans lapped up at the time.

There was bite marks on Ferris' fingers for which Hartley an 8 week ban. There was zero physical nor video evidence ever found of any wrong doing by Ferris.

Fairly pathetic attempts to position Hartley as a victim such an attempt to discredit Ferris as the doctor noted three bite marks vs Ferris' account of four. It was all really pathetic stuff.

It's pretty pathetic fish hooking someone in the first place.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think either were blameless. You don't put your fingers in someone's mouth at the bottom of a ruck to play friends!

Ferris denied in his statement putting his fingers in Hartley's mouth. You are just chosing to believe Hartley's account a guy with one of the longest rap sheets in history vs a guy with a very clean history.

There was no evidence ever found that there was damage to Hartley's mouth nor gums etc. Fish hooking was something Hartley made up to avoid a ban such was his character and English fans lapped up at the time.

There was bite marks on Ferris' fingers for which Hartley an 8 week ban. There was zero physical nor video evidence ever found of any wrong doing by Ferris.

Fairly pathetic attempts to position Hartley as a victim such an attempt to discredit Ferris as the doctor noted three bite marks vs Ferris' account of four. It was all really pathetic stuff.

Why would he say anything different? There is video of the incident. Hartley was well and truly trapped, and there is only one way those fingers could get near his mouth. It may well have been accidental but Hartley's record didn't help his defence.

Does the video show Ferris put his finger in Hartely's mouth? Ill save you the bother of looking it up. It doesn't. It shows Ferris clearing out Hartley at a ruck then ferris going to the ref and showing him his hand. Unsurprisingly Hartley doesn't approach the ref to show him any imaginary "fishook" marks.

There were some seriously pathetic efforts at the time to position Hartley as a victim and kind of surprised to see this persisting. Saw an interview a couple of years ago with Ferris where he says he is still pretty bitter about what Hartely did that day.

Again who are you going to believe, the guy with a clean record and bite marks on his hands who immediately called it out to the ref or the guy with one of the worst disciplinary records in rugby facing yet another ban?

Not sure what’s more pathetic - biting / fish hooking or bleating about it on an unrelated thread 10 years later

Yeah its really pathetic bleating about imaginary fish hooks 10 years later. I totally agree, see above.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think either were blameless. You don't put your fingers in someone's mouth at the bottom of a ruck to play friends!

Ferris denied in his statement putting his fingers in Hartley's mouth. You are just chosing to believe Hartley's account a guy with one of the longest rap sheets in history vs a guy with a very clean history.

There was no evidence ever found that there was damage to Hartley's mouth nor gums etc. Fish hooking was something Hartley made up to avoid a ban such was his character and English fans lapped up at the time.

There was bite marks on Ferris' fingers for which Hartley an 8 week ban. There was zero physical nor video evidence ever found of any wrong doing by Ferris.

Fairly pathetic attempts to position Hartley as a victim such an attempt to discredit Ferris as the doctor noted three bite marks vs Ferris' account of four. It was all really pathetic stuff.

It's pretty pathetic fish hooking someone in the first place.

Zero evidence of fish hooking, its was a desperate attempt from Hartley to avoid yet another ban. Real lack of character.

And Umaga was just helping BoD lie down.