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World T20 discussion thread

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Post by Duty281 Wed 03 Nov 2021, 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Blimey, Cross takes five fours off the sixth over. 48/1 after the PP, Scotland still in the game.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 3:57 pm

SA have a good attack ; but if England can't make 87 they deserve to be eliminated !

Apart from the qualification calculations, this should be a good contest

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 3:59 pm

Duty281 wrote:England have to be restricted to 131 or fewer for South Africa to qualify.

If England get dismissed for around 85 or fewer, I think, then England get eliminated.

England need 87 to qualify and 106 to top the group, per Mrs Bat listening to Sky. I was making the tea at the time!

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Nov 2021, 3:59 pm

Would it be in Englands interest to lose by 58 runs?

You can see the effect Archer being absent has on the bowling line up. You'd expect Archer to have bowled the 2nd and 4th then been held back for the death but without him you have no option but to use Woakes for the 6th, suddenly England are on the back foot. The knock on effect that then has was evident.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:04 pm

Nasser and Pommy rabbiting on about what South Africa should be trying to achieve. Restrict England to 130 has to be the case. Don't understand the debate here.

The more interesting and tricky question is what should England be aiming for? Would we settle at this stage for losing the game but topping the group? I wouldn't but sure some would.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:14 pm

England must be looking to win and I have no doubt that's their aim. It might be different if the score to qualify was something tricky-ish like 160, but passing 87 should be automatic and not require a second thought.

And once England cross 130 South Africa will likely deflate in the field, making the chase easier. Presumably South Africa will also use up their good bowlers early in the effort to try to restrict England below 130, they won't have a lot left for the death overs in that circumstance.

37/0 after 4, strong start from England.


Last edited by Duty281 on Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:14 pm

Roy and Buttler appear to have no interest in fussing about permutations... Just getting on with their typically busy start.

37 off 4. Business as usual.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:17 pm

Oh rats ... Roy has done himself a mischief, I fear Sad

This is not what England need... Hate to say it but Vince might need to get his game ready quickly...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:17 pm

Ah man no, Roy’s done his hamstring or calf. Surely tournament over, huge blow
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Post by VTR Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:18 pm

That really isn't good, in a game that is pretty much a dead rubber for England as well

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:21 pm

That's a damning blow for England. Can't see him returning for the rest of the tournament. Shame for him and for the side.

Do like that Moeen, not Malan, is up at 3.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:24 pm

Bairstow up to open with Billings into the middle order?

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:27 pm

Buttler continuing his wonderful run of form... Collecting fours and sixes seemingly at will.

If there was any concern about getting skittled for peanuts today they've disappeared quickly...

Though I'm afraid I've just hexed Jos as he's picked out the mid off fielder picard

Sorry , Jos. 58/1

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:31 pm

59/2, effectively, after the PP. Losing Buttler was a surprise as his ball-striking was sublime.

England ahead, let's see how they play Shamsi.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:34 pm

And the commentators have hexed Bairstow immediately Smile

England in a bit of a pickle effectively 59/3. Though 87 plus looks pretty safe. Malan's turn now...

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:38 pm

Interesting - my man Markram to have a bowl. He's been tidy the odd time he's bowled in this WC so far ....

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:39 pm

How quickly can Stokes get to UAE...

I'd rather keep Bairstow at 4 as his striking of spin can be absolutely vital in the middle overs.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:46 pm

king_carlos wrote:How quickly can Stokes get to UAE...

I'd rather keep Bairstow at 4 as his striking of spin can be absolutely vital in the middle overs.

Well he was hitting it pretty well in the brief chances he got in the first couple of games : but he's gone almost immediately to spinners in the last two matches so that theory hasn't really materialised ...

Really rotten luck for Jason Roy : was looking very good today too.

Think England are going to struggle with the 190 , though the 131 is likely. With the underwhelming bowling display and the loss of Roy this is probably a day England could have done without. Hopefully they're getting their "bad" game out of the way...

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:50 pm

With qualification assured, the key now is for Malan to get some decent time out in the middle.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:50 pm

Shame this isn't a knockout game as it's very well-balanced - 109 required off 60. The dew will start to become a big factor around now.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:53 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Interesting - my man Markram to have a bowl. He's been tidy the odd time he's bowled in this WC so far ....

A solitary over for Markram but it conceded just 3 singles. Doubt he'll bowl again today. Quite like that from Bavuma. Gives him options later on. Something which Morgan denied himself by not giving the ball to Livingstone during South Africa's knock.

It may not ultimately matter but England were too often ordinary / poor with the ball and in the field and would probably have benefitted late on in South Africa's innings from not having to give both Wood and Woakes a 4th over.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:58 pm

A surprising and bad move to bring back Markram. Unnecessary and certainly aiding England.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:00 pm

Think South Africa have given up on hopes of qualification, they really should have thrashed the ball a bit more v Bangladesh.

England well-placed, currently, to make it five from five...as Moeen sends one out of the stadium! Shocked

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:02 pm

Could open with Mo I suppose, quite nice having 3/4 options.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:02 pm

Markram might have wished he hadn't bowled a second over...

Moeen and Malan going well. Already enough runs to assure top of the group and the elimination of SA looks imminent.

Pity in a way that makes the 190 target a bit less than significant : if more were hanging on it this would be a more exciting contest.

Moeen gone after a lively display . Livingstone will get some time at the crease now which is a good thing anyway.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:06 pm

Need 11 per over from here. With the dew coming down that is far from impossible.

SA must know it's all over for them anyway which might indeed take the edge off their death bowling effort.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:11 pm

Up to 12 an over required now, but Shamsi's bowled out and Nortje only has one left for the final six. Morgan saving himself as a finisher.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:13 pm

Effectively 4 down and 73 needed off the last 6 overs to win the game.

Pretorius on. Good move as he starts with 2 dots ....

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:18 pm

Tough day for Rabada getting tougher as Livingstone monsters a six that makes Moeen's earlier look miniscule. Biggest of the tournament, apparently.

And six more. That's three in a row and confirms Australia are through.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:19 pm

Going to need a very big last five overs...

Malan has played very well here but whether he can bring England home remains to be seen. Livingstone not getting going yet.

SA will still want the consolation win I guess.

Wow ! Livingstone just hit the longest six of the whole tournament ! (And officially settled the semi for Australia)

And another ! Might get this 190 yet...

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:22 pm

At least Rabada has avoided going for six sixes in an over...might wish he'd gone a bit wider earlier Smile

Twenty off the over. A mere 11.5 per over needed now...

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:22 pm

Only 19 off the over in the end, after the first three went for 18. Trouble is Rabada is still down to bowl another over in this final four! Might need to alter that.

46 from 24 - England ahead, but Nortje still has one left.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:25 pm

Malan goes. A lot on Livingstone now.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:27 pm

Malan gone ...Morgan will need to get busy from the start tonight. Should help that there is no real pressure on the batsmen , given the situation.

Pretorius bowling quite cleverly . But only 35 needed from the last three...

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:28 pm

England down at 31% on the win predictor after finishing that over strongly...not having that, England are still ahead here. Morgan in the role as finisher, Livingstone striking well at the other end.

Nortje bowling the 18th.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:33 pm

Some exquisite, experienced batting from Morgan v Nortje.

Should be enough for England. Pretorious to bowl the 19th, then Rabada the 20th?

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:England down at 31% on the win predictor after finishing that over strongly...not having that, England are still ahead here. Morgan in the role as finisher, Livingstone striking well at the other end.

Nortje bowling the 18th.

Yeah I think that win thingy is a bit slow to catch up with the changing situation.

Need 25 off two which is easily no worse than fifty/fifty at any time : and I reckon England are favourite now. Though Livingstone just got out so not much in it...

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:35 pm

I think the predictor was probably at 31% largely as only one wicket (that wicket of Livingstone!) changes things so much in this situation.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:39 pm

What a time to bowl a no-ball, just as it seemed South Africa had a strong grip back on the game. Then Woakes smashes one for six (his first ball of the tournament) on the free-hit.

14 needed off the last. Rabada? Huge pressure on him after a dismal effort so far.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:39 pm

Good finish anyway. Need 14 off the last...

Rabada has had a shocker : chance to redeem himself ?

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:40 pm

I think in that situation you have to work on the assumption that a wicket falls in the next couple of balls.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:44 pm

2 wickets in 2 balls to start the last over. Given Roy's injury it's been a good chase but looks like the poor bowling performance is going to have given SA too much.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:44 pm

And Rabada finishes off with a hat-trick after a torrid first three overs. Some game. Mad old game.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:46 pm

Woakes gone. And now Morgan too... Seems Rabada has just won this for SA as some consolation...and with a hat trick too !

Fair enough. They've earned the win , even if it is rather a hollow one.

Might be good for England to have lost one : in this format , winning seven in a row is a bit of a challenge to the law of averages...

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:48 pm

South Africa win. clap

Very good game. England greatly harmed by losing Roy. Seam bowlers need to show much better form in the semi-finals. Think England would prefer NZ to India.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:48 pm

The bowling wasn't good enough but one of Mo, Malan or Livingstone should have seen that home, poor overall performance.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Nov 2021, 5:52 pm

Duty281 wrote:And Rabada finishes off with a hat-trick after a torrid first three overs. Some game. Mad old game.

Funny old game indeed. England probably needn't panic ; but it was a bit of a messy display in the field and has left them with a couple of selection and batting order issues to consider . And of course the loss of Roy is a huge pity.

On the plus side , Malan and Livingstone - and Moeen - all had good batting outings.

Other teams will have seen that England aren't invincible. But they don't usually have two poor games in a row...

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Nov 2021, 6:24 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:And Rabada finishes off with a hat-trick after a torrid first three overs. Some game. Mad old game.

Funny old game indeed. England probably needn't panic ; but it was a bit of a messy display in the field and has left them with a couple of selection and batting order issues to consider . And of course the loss of Roy is a huge pity.

On the plus side , Malan and Livingstone - and Moeen - all had good batting outings.

Other teams will have seen that England aren't invincible. But they don't usually have two poor games in a row...

I'm not so upbeat, Alfie. The best way to win a tournament is to win every game. That may not be rocket science but it usually goes some way to giving your next opponents the jitters! Whether we're up against New Zealand or India, they'll take some comfort from knowing we went down to a side that didn't even make the semis. Winning is a habit and we should be wary of thinking it is something we can dip in and out of.

We were sloppy too often with the ball and in the field today. As mentioned earlier, I thought Morgan should have given Livingstone an over to allow him options later on. By way of contrast, Bavuma astutely gave Markram a bowl although, admittedly, overplayed that hand when returning to him for a second over.

Roy is a big loss but so also is Mills. Wood was a poor replacement today and I'm concerned that will still be the case next time.

Yes, things can change quickly in this format and that still gives me some hope of our reaching the final. However, I would be feeling a lot better now if we had won again and was hoping that things don't change for the semi ....


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Post by Old Man Sat 06 Nov 2021, 6:34 pm

So, SA beat England after all, didn't make the semi's, but at least they bow out on a high.

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Post by Pal Joey Sat 06 Nov 2021, 6:47 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:And Rabada finishes off with a hat-trick after a torrid first three overs. Some game. Mad old game.

Funny old game indeed. England probably needn't panic ; but it was a bit of a messy display in the field and has left them with a couple of selection and batting order issues to consider . And of course the loss of Roy is a huge pity.

On the plus side , Malan and Livingstone - and Moeen - all had good batting outings.

Other teams will have seen that England aren't invincible. But they don't usually have two poor games in a row...

I'm not so upbeat, Alfie. The best way to win a tournament is to win every game. That may not be rocket science but it usually goes some way to giving your next opponents the jitters! Whether we're up against New Zealand or India, they'll take some comfort from knowing we went down to a side that didn't even make the semis. Winning is a habit and we should be wary of thinking it is something we can dip in and out of.

We were sloppy too often with the ball and in the field today. As mentioned earlier, I thought Morgan should have given Livingstone an over to allow him options later on. By way of contrast, Bavuma astutely gave Markram a bowl although, admittedly, overplayed that hand when returning to him for a second over.

Roy is a big loss but so also is Mills. Wood was a poor replacement today and I'm concerned that will still be the case next time.

Yes, things can change quickly in this format and that still gives me some hope of our reaching the final. However, I would be feeling a lot better now if we had won again and was hoping that things don't change for the semi ....


That certainly helped Australia in the 50 over format in 2003 and 2007. 22 undefeated matches. A phenomenal performance which may never be repeated. It's even better when you add the tail end of 1999 and the start of 2011 CWCs. From 23 May 1999 until 19 March 2011 they were undefeated in 35 consecutive matches. 33 wins, 1 draw and 1 no result. So I agree, Guildford. That's the best way to win tournaments.   Cool

There were also a couple of Champions Trophy tournament wins during that same period but alas; they dropped a game in 2006 and had one no result in 2009, which proves that England can still win it but it's a massive blow to lose Roy and have to fiddle with the winning formula.

If Pakistan can continue to roll forward with the inevitable win over Scotland and then seal a berth in the final by winning their semi-final (which seems likely) then I believe they are the team that will deserve the trophy after having gone through this competition undefeated.

Unless, of course they get beaten by a bunch of uncouth upstarts in their semi-final. It would be nice to add this little trophy to the collection. Smile
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 06 Nov 2021, 6:56 pm

Both encouraged, and slightly worried in loss today...if that makes any sense. Encouraged that even with a poor bowling/fielding performance, and losing one batter, we got pretty close and arguably should have chased down a score of 190 odd...but also worried about that!

The loss of Roy really is a huge blow - he sets the impetus at the start of the innings for England, and has a pretty handy record in World Cup semi finals! An excellent fielder too. I will come onto potential replacements/options later, but now they are missing 5 players who would be in the first choice 15 man squad (Archer, Stokes, Curran, Mills, Roy) and 3 from the first choice XI (Roy, one of Stokes/Curran, Archer). Pretty damn tough to overcome such big losses, despite England's white ball depth!

Some good within the loss...valuable time in the middle for Moeen/Malan/Livingstone. Don't think any of them looked at full flow understandably, but some runs and lusty blows under the belt for each of them can only be a good thing heading into the semis.
Thought Jordan bowled nicely on the whole too.

I see Alfie picked up on my Woakes worry, and again it was shown today...he really is a poor death bowler, and teams can take him on in the powerplay too. Pretty concerned if he has to bowl anymore than one over in that final five at this point.
Wood was really really bad - I appreciate I am not the world's biggest Mark Wood fan, but today was probably the worst performance by an England bowler in the tournament. Just no reaction/alternative to banging it into the wicket at full pelt! I get that's his schtick, and it has been effective in the tournament in general, but he has to have some form of slower ball to throw into the equation so the batsmen can't just sit back and line him up. Especially on a ground like Sharjah with its short boundaries.
Hopefully some rust knocked off, and slightly bigger ground dimensions in the semi final will help. England don't really have any other choice because of the injuries!

Think England will be hoping New Zealand do the business against Afghanistan tomorrow - definitely the better semi final matchup than India, especially now Rohit/Rahul seem to have found form in the tournament. (albeit they of course can beat India, and aren't nailed on to beat NZ!)

As for how you replace Roy...well, I'll list out my thoughts;

1. Don't think James Vince is an option. I know he's first reserve for the top order on paper, but these conditions really really are not suited to his game especially coming in on a one off game scenario.
2. I think, if I had to put money on it they will bring Billings into the side, and shift up Bairstow to open. Not what I would do. I would leave Bairstow at 4 whatever happens
3. This is something that is never going to happen, but I would be tempted to bring Willey into the side (Dawson if he was in the squad of course, but he isn't Sad ) and I'd also consider, hear me out, having Willey open up the batting. He does it sometimes in county stuff, he is an excellent hitter of spin (so could potentially take it down/dissuade teams from bowling it in the powerplay) , and would play the Roy like "dasher" role. Would of course introduce a left arm option with the ball, and another powerplay bowling option too.
4. On planet earth (maybe!) I think I would most like to see Billings into the side down in the lower order, and move Livingstone up to open. My most preferred realistic option I think. Billings will be able to replace Roy's fielding, and while it would be a lot to ask him to do something with the bat, he is generally a good player of spin and used to the middle order/finisher position. Livingstone up the order, because similar to Roy, if he comes off in the powerplay he could cause untold damage
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly
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