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World T20 discussion thread

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Post by Duty281 Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Blimey, Cross takes five fours off the sixth over. 48/1 after the PP, Scotland still in the game.

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Post by Duty281 Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:08 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:And Rabada finishes off with a hat-trick after a torrid first three overs. Some game. Mad old game.

Funny old game indeed. England probably needn't panic ; but it was a bit of a messy display in the field and has left them with a couple of selection and batting order issues to consider . And of course the loss of Roy is a huge pity.

On the plus side , Malan and Livingstone - and Moeen - all had good batting outings.

Other teams will have seen that England aren't invincible. But they don't usually have two poor games in a row...

I'm not so upbeat, Alfie. The best way to win a tournament is to win every game. That may not be rocket science but it usually goes some way to giving your next opponents the jitters! Whether we're up against New Zealand or India, they'll take some comfort from knowing we went down to a side that didn't even make the semis. Winning is a habit and we should be wary of thinking it is something we can dip in and out of.

We were sloppy too often with the ball and in the field today. As mentioned earlier, I thought Morgan should have given Livingstone an over to allow him options later on. By way of contrast, Bavuma astutely gave Markram a bowl although, admittedly, overplayed that hand when returning to him for a second over.

Roy is a big loss but so also is Mills. Wood was a poor replacement today and I'm concerned that will still be the case next time.

Yes, things can change quickly in this format and that still gives me some hope of our reaching the final. However, I would be feeling a lot better now if we had won again and was hoping that things don't change for the semi ....


I'm not overly concerned in terms of losing the game - no team has ever won the T20 World Cup winning every game, and as Alfie mentioned winning seven in a row in T20 stretches the law of averages - but the performance levels in the seam bowling and ground fielding were a concern. Hopefully actually losing the game will force England to look hard at those issues, particularly the fielding, where with a win they may have been glossed over.

Ultimately I think England would have won today if Roy hadn't been injured and that's the biggest concern of today's game. I'd actually favour Moeen up to open, then Billings in the middle order at 7. Wood's also not 100% fit and if he breaks down/can't play the semi-final it becomes a big issue. Maybe it already is one.

Still have England as clear favourites to win the tournament, but of course a lot depends on the toss and if India make it through.

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Post by Duty281 Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:10 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Both encouraged, and slightly worried in loss today...if that makes any sense. Encouraged that even with a poor bowling/fielding performance, and losing one batter, we got pretty close and arguably should have chased down a score of 190 odd...but also worried about that!

The loss of Roy really is a huge blow - he sets the impetus at the start of the innings for England, and has a pretty handy record in World Cup semi finals! An excellent fielder too. I will come onto potential replacements/options later, but now they are missing 5 players who would be in the first choice 15 man squad (Archer, Stokes, Curran, Mills, Roy) and 3 from the first choice XI (Roy, one of Stokes/Curran, Archer). Pretty damn tough to overcome such big losses, despite England's white ball depth!

Some good within the loss...valuable time in the middle for Moeen/Malan/Livingstone. Don't think any of them looked at full flow understandably, but some runs and lusty blows under the belt for each of them can only be a good thing heading into the semis.
Thought Jordan bowled nicely on the whole too.

I see Alfie picked up on my Woakes worry, and again it was shown today...he really is a poor death bowler, and teams can take him on in the powerplay too. Pretty concerned if he has to bowl anymore than one over in that final five at this point.
Wood was really really bad - I appreciate I am not the world's biggest Mark Wood fan, but today was probably the worst performance by an England bowler in the tournament. Just no reaction/alternative to banging it into the wicket at full pelt! I get that's his schtick, and it has been effective in the tournament in general, but he has to have some form of slower ball to throw into the equation so the batsmen can't just sit back and line him up. Especially on a ground like Sharjah with its short boundaries.
Hopefully some rust knocked off, and slightly bigger ground dimensions in the semi final will help. England don't really have any other choice because of the injuries!

Think England will be hoping New Zealand do the business against Afghanistan tomorrow - definitely the better semi final matchup than India, especially now Rohit/Rahul seem to have found form in the tournament. (albeit they of course can beat India, and aren't nailed on to beat NZ!)

As for how you replace Roy...well, I'll list out my thoughts;

1. Don't think James Vince is an option. I know he's first reserve for the top order on paper, but these conditions really really are not suited to his game especially coming in on a one off game scenario.
2. I think, if I had to put money on it they will bring Billings into the side, and shift up Bairstow to open. Not what I would do. I would leave Bairstow at 4 whatever happens
3. This is something that is never going to happen, but I would be tempted to bring Willey into the side (Dawson if he was in the squad of course, but he isn't Sad ) and I'd also consider, hear me out, having Willey open up the batting. He does it sometimes in county stuff, he is an excellent hitter of spin (so could potentially take it down/dissuade teams from bowling it in the powerplay) , and would play the Roy like "dasher" role. Would of course introduce a left arm option with the ball, and another powerplay bowling option too.
4. On planet earth (maybe!) I think I would most like to see Billings into the side down in the lower order, and move Livingstone up to open. My most preferred realistic option I think. Billings will be able to replace Roy's fielding, and while it would be a lot to ask him to do something with the bat, he is generally a good player of spin and used to the middle order/finisher position. Livingstone up the order, because similar to Roy, if he comes off in the powerplay he could cause untold damage

Good post, won't leave it buried on the last page!

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Post by guildfordbat Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:27 pm

Olly - Duty's grafting hard for his 10% agent's fee. Very Happy

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:34 pm

My initial reaction to seeing Roy pull up was Sam Curran to open and offer another bowling option; I then remembered he's injured and the not very good brother was in the squad instead.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:04 am

After a night/early morning sleep...

Olly : you just about had me at selecting Willey - until the bit about him opening the batting ! I get the idea but seriously it looks too much like a "wild card" move : and I really don't think they're at that point. I do think Willey is a reasonable chance for selection as England might feel they need an extra pace option ; but if they do go that way I'd prefer they let the batsmen do their thing and keep him for some late hitting if required.
Vince will come in to the squad ; but if they want a batsman as replacement in the XI , it surely will be Billings.
You could move any of Bairstow , Malan , Moeen - or even Livingstone - up to open. I can't really see why it wouldn't be Bairstow as it is his preferred place in white ball cricket ; and allows the three Ms and Livingstone to bat in essentially the spots they've been preparing for. Obviously it would be better if Roy hadn't been injured ; but we've all been applauding the depth of talent in the side so surely this is where we utilise that talent rather than suddenly deciding to turn things upside down as if beset by some crisis ?

Woakes and Wood : yeah they had a bad day. Happens.  Woakes isn't an ideal death bowler but on another day I'd expect him to bowl one over late on without too much damage. As for Wood : he hasn't been playing , just recovered from injury - and brought on quite late against an opposition already going well with the bat : is it really a surprise he didn't fare well ? (I don't think he is an ideal bowler for this competition to be honest ; but I think he can bowl better than that - and hopefully will next week. I should perhaps remind everyone that a few days ago there were a lot of mutterings about Malan and he didn't do a lot wrong under pressure this time : they are only human and we can't expect everyone to fire in every game.)
If they were going to try Curran in this he would have played this game so I think we are stuck with these fellows anyway. Maybe plus Willey...

Overall I am somewhere between the cautious guildford and our optimistic Olly/Duty team on what this game means for England's further prospects. I would much rather they had won (despite my point about the law of averages catching up with winning streaks) as I agree winning is an excellent habit to get into. And I am not blaming the loss on Roy's unfortunate injury : chasing in dewy conditions at night against a side who must have been a little deflated at being eliminated anyway they really ought to have got the job done : I'm calling it a bad day all round.

However : I really think that the main reason for the lapse from their generally high standard was purely mental. Like it or not , they came into this match knowing they were certain (barring a ridiculous margin of defeat) to qualify top of the group. It took the edge off them - as could be seen in bowling , fielding and batting - none of which were at the desired standard. And yes , that standard is high , as they have set it that way ; but even a small drop in intensity makes all the difference at this level. They might have gone in saying and believing they were at 100% effort : but the evidence is otherwise.

Whether the semi is against India or NZ they will not be suffering from complacency or lack of intensity. They might perhaps be a little less confident as a result of this setback but hopefully it will serve more as a spur than a bridle.

Will be glad the semi is not at Sharjah as they seem to like the other venues better.  I would be inclined to go with Buttler Bairstow Malan Moeen Morgan Livingstone Woakes Willey Jordan Rashid Wood : shortened the batting a little , yes...but all those bowling options give Morgan a chance to really show his tactical expertise.  I won't be surprised though if they prefer to include Billings instead - and it may be that will prove the best choice. Really should fancy their chances either way as long as they can maximise their strengths and cover up for the one real weakness : the death bowling. And it should be noted that nearly every other team has had its problems with those last few over anyway.

Looking forward to NZ and Afghanistan today : might be a good contest . And no question it is anything but a dead rubber...

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:14 am

An early wicket for New Zealand as Shahzad falls to Milne. A properly clean catch behind by Conway - well, he wiped it several times before hanging on! Smile

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:16 am

Afghanistan and consequently also India in early trouble. 12/2 early in the 4th.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:23 am

Not the start Afghanistan wanted. Given the power play has been one of their strong points in the previous games , this doesn't auger well for them.

Kiwi pace men looking pretty sharp.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:47 am

56/4 at the halfway mark as Gulbadin falls...

Najib hitting some useful runs but this is about what they usually get in the power play : going to need a big back half if they are to set any sort of challenging target.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:05 am

Najib singlehandedly keeping Afghanistan afloat...49 off 31 balls - out of just 87 !

Needs some help...

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:24 am

Najib continues to prosper...69 off 46 now.

115/5 with 2 overs left. Do they have a big finish in them ?

Edit > Najib gone for 73 so maybe not...

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Post by Pal Joey Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:33 am

That was amazing from Mitchell. How did he do that?
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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:35 am

124 . Doesn't look to be enough.

Kiwi pace bowlers were brilliant clap

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:36 am

Pal Joey wrote:That was amazing from Mitchell. How did he do that?

Amazing agility. Some of these modern boundary fielders are acrobats...

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:09 pm

Decent power play for NZ 45/1

Afghans out already I think ... just playing for India now Smile

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:36 pm

Conway struggling a bit to get started. NZ with a bit to do yet , from the current 70/2 off 12.

Only one more over for Rashid Khan though.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:43 pm

Williamson's timing in this innings has been joyous. Just some gentle nudges to the boundary getting New Zealand home. They've been quietly impressive so far and deserve their semi-final berth.

Pakistan-Scotland later - Pakistan need the win to top the group. It would be typical Pakistan to lose that one!

India-Namibia a dead rubber tomorrow.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:47 pm

Ah that's good game awareness from Conway... Not leaving this to the late overs , takes Nabi for 13 with some enterprising strokes.

Leaves just 34 needed from six overs which should be regulation...

Typical NZ no fuss calm execution thumbsup

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:Williamson's timing in this innings has been joyous. Just some gentle nudges to the boundary getting New Zealand home. They've been quietly impressive so far and deserve their semi-final berth.

Pakistan-Scotland later - Pakistan need the win to top the group. It would be typical Pakistan to lose that one!

India-Namibia a dead rubber tomorrow.

Scotland beating Pakistan , hmm...I'd like to see that Smile

Don't thinkthat is very likely though.

Peculiar draw to have that India v qualifier dead rubber all on its own on the last day. Bit of an anti climax.

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Post by Pal Joey Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:58 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Williamson's timing in this innings has been joyous. Just some gentle nudges to the boundary getting New Zealand home. They've been quietly impressive so far and deserve their semi-final berth.

Pakistan-Scotland later - Pakistan need the win to top the group. It would be typical Pakistan to lose that one!

India-Namibia a dead rubber tomorrow.

Scotland beating Pakistan , hmm...I'd like to see that Smile

Don't thinkthat is very likely though.

Peculiar draw to have that India v qualifier dead rubber all on its own on the last day. Bit of an anti climax.

An early night for us, alfie.  Smile Maybe record that one and speed-watch the highlights later the following morning.
So knackered from last night. I watched some rugby too so went to bed after the sun rose.
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Post by alfie Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:02 pm

Kiwis home with two overs to spare. clap

Afghans have given a very good account of themselves at this event ; just not quite good enough to handle the big teams.

Wonder what the future holds for them ? Better than their women , certainly. But the troubles afflicting their homeland aren't likely to help them , sadly.

And yes , PJ : probably not burning the midnight oil for that one tomorrow Smile

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:07 pm

In what could be their last international tournament for a while i'm left underwhelmed again by Afghanistan. They won't progress until they expand their batting gameplan, attempting to smash everything will only get you so far, their field manipulation is a long way behind the better teams.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:47 pm

Scotland's last hurrah at this T-20 World Cup is against Pakistan. Pakistan won the toss and elected to bat and after 9.4 overs are 59 for 2.
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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:49 pm

Another cautious start from Pakistan, who won the toss and batted, 59/2 after 9.4 overs. Pakistan were 59/0 at halfway v Namibia, before flooring it in the second half and posting a big total. With two down this time they may find it a little harder to push the score to beyond 180.

If Scotland can pick up another couple in the next 3-4 overs then they're well in this.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:35 pm

A leg spinner bowling long hops is not the ideal death bowler.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:06 pm

alfie wrote:Not the start Afghanistan wanted. Given the power play has been one of their strong points in the previous games , this doesn't auger well for them.

Kiwi pace men looking pretty sharp
.

They sure were, Alfie. And that's one reason why I'm with you rather than Olly in not wanting Willey opening the batting. Whilst Willey would have a puncher's chance of coming off, I reckon he would most likely just be an early wicket for Boult or Southee.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:34 pm

No dream ending for Scotland as they go down by 72 runs. Pakistan maintain their 100% start. Semi-finals (both evening games):

England v New Zealand on Wednesday.
Pakistan v Australia on Thursday.

Obviously the toss is a considerable factor, but I think England and Pakistan are strong favourites for the semi-finals.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:52 pm

Duty281 wrote:No dream ending for Scotland as they go down by 72 runs. Pakistan maintain their 100% start. Semi-finals (both evening games):

England v New Zealand on Wednesday.
Pakistan v Australia on Thursday.

Obviously the toss is a considerable factor, but I think England and Pakistan are strong favourites for the semi-finals.

Yep, the neutral in me would quite like the winners to be the team batting first. That goes out the window though for the first semi!

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Post by alfie Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:12 am

I'd agree Pakistan and England are favourites ; not sure about the strong bit...

Australia had a real shocker against England. Apart from that they've done quite well : beat SA - clearly the next best team in the group - and Sri Lanka convincingly enough ;  and slaughtered the also rans. Pakistan have dominated their group ; but they have been favoured by a nice draw with an Indian side not quite switched on first up and possibly a weaker group overall. They have also been blessed with a lot of excellent starts from two brilliant openers : if the (very capable) Aussie pace men were to make early breaks I wonder if their later batting would be able to cover ?
Their bowling looks impressive so I do still have them as likely winners but won't be at all shocked if Australia were to triumph.

England NZ is a very close one for mine. Reckon NZ is criminally underrated even on here.
They are World Test champions ;  are arguably unlucky (freak deflection off a diving batsman's blade for four overthrows ? ) not to hold the 50 over title as well ; and are always around the sharp end of these major events. Their bowling group may just be the best of all the finalists... They must have a huge chance.
Why I would still favour England is that I suspect the Kiwi batting may lack a little in explosiveness if they are called on to chase a big score - or to set a large target. Fair to say England's much vaunted batting line-up hasn't done anything spectacular yet outside of the individual brilliance of Jos Buttler -twice- and Jason Roy ; but then in the first three games the bowlers didn't really leave them with anything much to do...  I think the knockouts may be where the batting group really produces as expected.
But again , a result either way wouldn't astonish me.

Expect/hope for a couple of really good matches to honour the tournament.

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Post by Duty281 Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:22 pm

News confirmed that we all expected - Roy ruled out of the rest of the tournament. Bitter blow.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:31 pm

alfie wrote:I'd agree Pakistan and England are favourites ; not sure about the strong bit...

Australia had a real shocker against England. Apart from that they've done quite well : beat SA - clearly the next best team in the group - and Sri Lanka convincingly enough ;  and slaughtered the also rans. Pakistan have dominated their group ; but they have been favoured by a nice draw with an Indian side not quite switched on first up and possibly a weaker group overall. They have also been blessed with a lot of excellent starts from two brilliant openers : if the (very capable) Aussie pace men were to make early breaks I wonder if their later batting would be able to cover ?
Their bowling looks impressive so I do still have them as likely winners but won't be at all shocked if Australia were to triumph.

England NZ is a very close one for mine. Reckon NZ is criminally underrated even on here.

They are World Test champions ;  are arguably unlucky (freak deflection off a diving batsman's blade for four overthrows ? ) not to hold the 50 over title as well ; and are always around the sharp end of these major events. Their bowling group may just be the best of all the finalists... They must have a huge chance.
Why I would still favour England is that I suspect the Kiwi batting may lack a little in explosiveness if they are called on to chase a big score - or to set a large target. Fair to say England's much vaunted batting line-up hasn't done anything spectacular yet outside of the individual brilliance of Jos Buttler -twice- and Jason Roy ; but then in the first three games the bowlers didn't really leave them with anything much to do...  I think the knockouts may be where the batting group really produces as expected.
But again , a result either way wouldn't astonish me.

Expect/hope for a couple of really good matches to honour the tournament.

Not by me though, Alfie. Not at all.

For me, NZ are a strong, well balanced side and experienced without being over the hill. Canny skipper in Williamson too.

I take the point about their batting lacking a bit of explosive firepower (surprised de Grandhomme isn't in the mix) but that may ultimately not be costly provided their batters don't fold and their bowlers turn up.

Boult and Southee are class acts, no question; lost count of the points Joey owes me there Wink . Milne and Neesham are some way short of that quality but both still did a good job last time out against Afghanistan - didn't expect Neesham to bowl a full 4 overs then, England mustn't allow him to do that on Wednesday. Slowmen Santner and Sodhi both found to be wanting in Tests but usually effective in this format.

All backed up with some excellent catching and stops around the boundary.

You were kind enough to refer to me as ''cautious'' the other day rather than a miserable old sod. Smile I hope that still stands. I'm not writing England's chances off - Duty and others have understandably flagged our strenghs. I just don't think NZ should be underestimated at all.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:40 pm

If England perform as well as they can they will blow New Zealand away, the difference in peak performance is massive. The kicker to that however is New Zealand playing at their optimum might be good enough to beat an under par England.

New Zealands greatest strength and it was evident in the 50 over world cup is playing consistently at their highest level, the group game was more indicative of the teams respective ability though. Yes this is T20 but the teams and style are still similar.

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Post by JDizzle Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:04 pm

I think on this one occasion the comparison to baseball is apt! If England were to play a series against NZ I would back them to win the series the vast, vast majority of time. As Soul says, their top gear is just much higher than NZ. Regardless of what happens in this semi final or the WC, England will remain a better T20 side than NZ in my eyes.

But when it comes down to a one game shoot out, unless the teams are massively unmatched, in a format as changeable as T20 the favourites will never win more than roughly 60/65% of the time. And one thing NZ have shown is they definitely have the bottle for the fight and there is very little chance of them no showing. They were obdurate in the ODI WC Semis and Final and the Test championship and that mentality does transcend formats.

If we can get the Woakes we saw in the early games, and England can grab some early wickets, then it might force Williamson into his shell and settle for 130/140 which I can’t see being enough. NZ need a fast start from one of Mitchell and Guptill if they bat first.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:59 pm

Agree with what JDizzle/Soul have put re: the England/NZ matchup - your point on Woakes is a critical one JDizzle, with NZ employing a right hander heavy top order, you'd think Moeen will have less powerplay overs in this one (likely to be held back for Conway/Neesham/Santner matchups), and while they may give Rashid some powerplay overs, you'd hope Woakes can nip out one or two of Guptill/Mitchell/Williamson to put NZ into their bunker.
A critical game for England's left hand bats too you'd think. Santner and Sodhi are generally pretty good at keeping the right handers quiet, but I think both are a fair bit less effective against lefties, so Morgan/Malan/Moeen will have big roles to play (has reared it's head a couple of times with Munsey vs Sodhi and Najibullah vs Santner in recent NZ games).

In both matchups, you have a team who've employed a batting heavy strategy on the whole (Eng/Aus) coming up against ones who've opted for the extra bowlers and a slightly more conservative batting approach (Pak/NZ). Of course England's lineup may slightly change with the Roy injury (if Willey comes in) but definitely going to see different ways of playing up against each other.

Should be said, there was definitely more teams winning batting first in the latter end of the group stages - whilst some were expected results, there was some even games with the team batting first winning too. Also generally the dew has been heaviest in Sharjah, where no more games are being played. Still could be a factor in Dubai/Abu Dhabi, but don't think it will quite be to the extent it is there.

I actually fancy the Aussies against Pakistan in their game - do think the Aussie bowlers can get amongst that Pakistan lineup (I fancy Hazlewood to have a good game as Rizwan/Babar are likely to let him settle) and they've re-inserted Marsh at 3 to their batting (Correctly)
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Post by king_carlos Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:28 pm

I certainly think that NZ until the WTC win were still underrated in Tests. They probably still are underrated in ODIs too. I think most people rated them fairly for this tournament though. 3rd favourites for the semis from their group was where most had them.

They are a side with some big strengths in their seam bowling (Boult, Ferguson and Milne are strong T20 bowlers, whilst Southee has stood up really well this tournament) and the consistency of their batting (Conway and Williamson are two of the better 'anchors' out there) but also clear issues in how they balance the side.

They are very good in the field and very well captained. Similar to England with Morgan the NZ bowlers are very good at executing a plan which allows them to be so consistent.

Similar to Australia leaving out Josh Inglis and Tim David I think this NZ squad could be even stronger. Leaving Milne out the original squad was a surprise. CdG could offer an option to balance the side too. I do think that having one of Finn Allen or Colin Munro in the squad as an alternative attacking batsman would strengthen the squad as well, as shown with Phillips having a poor tournament thus far and no real option to replace him.

I don't think it was unreasonable at all to rate India as a better chance of qualifying for the semis before the tournament. Paticularly as most were expecting Bhuvi at 100% even if Hardik's fitness issues were known. To me that's not indicative of this NZ T20 side being underrated, more indicative of T20 being a volatile format.

1.Buttler 2.Bairstow 3.Malan 4.Moeen 5.Livingstone 6.Morgan 7.Billings 8.Woakes 9.Jordan 10.Rashid 11.Wood

I think England will stay batting heavy with Billings coming in for Roy. I really like Bairstow at 4 but given Billings is also a good player of spin I think moving Bairstow up is the best option. 4-7 in that line-up would be very flexible.

Given the absentees in Archer, Stokes, Curran, Mills and Roy it is still a very strong XI but way below what England would have been hoping for back in March when playing that T20i series in India.

1.Guptill 2.Mitchell 3.Williamson 4.Conway 5.Phillips 6.Neesham 7.Santner 8.Milne 9.Sodhi 10.Southee 11.Boult

Presumably NZ will stick with bowling heavy so a contrast of styles.

As seen by England's smash and grab win in 2010 anything can happen in the knockouts. One great innings or bowling performance can swing a game. Both sides certainly have players capable of them.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:17 pm

England (probable): 1 Jos Buttler (wk), 2 Jonny Bairstow, 3 Dawid Malan, 4 Eoin Morgan (capt), 5 Liam Livingstone, 6 Moeen Ali, 7 Sam Billings/David Willey, 8 Chris Woakes, 9 Chris Jordan, 10 Adil Rashid, 11 Mark Wood.

Cricinfo reckoning that Bairstow will be up to open and Roy's replacement is down to Billings v Willey. Do England want an extra bowling option, a left-arm one too, or do they want to load up the top seven with pure batsmen? I imagine after the last game Morgan will want another bowling choice, though I hope he would trust Livingstone with the ball more.

New Zealand (probable): 1 Martin Guptill, 2 Daryl Mitchell, 3 Kane Williamson (capt), 4 Devon Conway (wk), 5 Glenn Phillips, 6 James Neesham, 7 Mitchell Santner, 8 Adam Milne, 9 Tim Southee, 10 Ish Sodhi, 11 Trent Boult.

New Zealand shaping up to be unchanged for yet another game.

It will be another good batting wicket so expect high scores, although they're using a central pitch for this one so there's no noticeably short boundaries. Whoever wins the toss will benefit enormously from chasing.

I'm not at all concerned about this one from an England perspective - if England play at, or near, their best they'll win. The 8 overs from Boult and Southee will be a real test (especially Boult), but Neesham/Sodhi/Santner/Milne can all be targeted. NZ's batting, as said, lacks firepower. Conway and Mitchell are having halfway-decent tournaments, but they're the only two to be wary of. Williamson is actually batting at a SR of below 100 in this tournament. One area where I think NZ may be better is in the fielding.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:06 pm

Guptill is really poor against left-arm seam by his standards which might swing things in Willey's direction.

Before the tournament I wanted England to go bowling heavy. With the batting heavy approach having worked so far I think I'd prefer them to stick with that though. Billings plays spin so well which I'd select him for against NZ then target Sodhi and Santner.

I do worry that the bowling attack with Moeen and Livingstone as the 5th bowler will get hit at some point. I'd have very similar worries with Mo/Livingstone as 6th bowler and Willey added though. With Willey and Woakes in the same side our bowling would be top heavy in the PP but still weak at the death. Our middle overs will need Wood to bowl a lot better than he did against SA too.

I'd expect the fielding to be very even with both sides excellent. If Billings plays then he is an outstanding fielder to replace the also very good Roy. If Billings doesn't play then judging by the tournament so far he'll still field most of the 20 overs England bowl anyway. Whistle

I lack the patience to go back and check exactly when he's been on and who he's been on for. From a completely meaningless study consisting of me noticing Billings being on the field a lot for a man yet to play a game I have a feeling England have been taking the mick a touch there. He's probably in the top 5 fielders in the squad with Jordan obviously top then Bairstow, Woakes, Roy and Billings pretty tight as the next best.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:00 pm

Sounds like Bairstow to open is sorted, and it’ll come down to either Billings or Willey at 7, depending on conditions (if likely to be a bowler friendly pitch than Billings will play, a high scoring/batting wicket then Willey will come in to offer another bowling option).

NZ should be as expected.

Looking forward to the game - do fear England may have suffered one injury too many now (and please no more during the game tomorrow!)
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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:34 pm

I have concerns it's one injury too many as well now I must say, Olly.

A big part of me wonders what Hales would add too. Stokes injured, Malan out of form, now Roy injured too. I'd really love to have had Hales as an option in that top 3.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:38 pm

What would an absentee XI look like for England?

1.Roy 2.Banton 3.Hales 4.Stokes 5.Salt (wk) 6.Jacks 7.Curran 8.Howell 9.Dawson 10.Archer 11.Mills

I'd fancy that lot to do alright to be fair!

Couldn't find a place for Saqib Mahmood or Parkinson there either.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:22 am

king_carlos wrote:I have concerns it's one injury too many as well now I must say, Olly.

A big part of me wonders what Hales would add too. Stokes injured, Malan out of form, now Roy injured too. I'd really love to have had Hales as an option in that top 3.

Hales? Not for me pal. Nowhere near the player he was in the mid 2010’s anymore, hence unsold in the IPL auction again and a poor Hundred campaign.

Super excited for tomorrow whatever the side put out is - four consecutive semi final (at least) appearances in global ICC limited overs events since the Morgan/Bayliss white ball shift in mentality post 2015 World Cup shambles. Great to be involved in these big games/late in tournaments, definitely enjoying it while it lasts!
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Post by guildfordbat Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:23 am

king_carlos wrote:I have concerns it's one injury too many as well now I must say, Olly.

A big part of me wonders what Hales would add too. Stokes injured, Malan out of form, now Roy injured too. I'd really love to have had Hales as an option in that top 3.

Yes, it's not simply Roy being absent that is a handicap but also the disruption and uncertainty for the team that goes with it. That in part triggered my caution or worry gutting the other day as to our chances. In contrast, New Zealand have an effective and settled side.

Anyway, I go along with the apparent decision of Bairstow to open. It won't be anything new to him. IF (big ''if'') he or Buttler can fire from the start and go big, we would clearly be in a strong position.

I would bring in Billings rather than Willey. Not exacly a like for like replacement for Roy but someway close to it with Billings being a batsman and a tonker. Good for us if he can get after Santner and Sodhi from the off as Carlos suggested in an earlier post although that pesky Williamson might not be too accommodating and instead bring back Boult and Southee for the start of his knock (assuming it happens).

Selecting Willey would give us seven bowling options. Not sure that would be necessary or even that helpful. Six should be sufficient. It's not so much options we need but the bowlers to perform better than they did against South Africa. If I picked Willey, it would be for Wood who was poor last time out. However, that would further rock the boat which I'm keen to steady.

Tricky this selection lark. Concerning too. Perhaps Duty can spare me a bit of his optimism ....

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Post by king_carlos Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:14 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I have concerns it's one injury too many as well now I must say, Olly.

A big part of me wonders what Hales would add too. Stokes injured, Malan out of form, now Roy injured too. I'd really love to have had Hales as an option in that top 3.

Hales? Not for me pal. Nowhere near the player he was in the mid 2010’s anymore, hence unsold in the IPL auction again and a poor Hundred campaign.

Super excited for tomorrow whatever the side put out is - four consecutive semi final (at least) appearances in global ICC limited overs events since the Morgan/Bayliss white ball shift in mentality post 2015 World Cup shambles. Great to be involved in these big games/late in tournaments, definitely enjoying it while it lasts!

A bit harsh on Hales in my opinion. His Big Bash stats have remained phenomenal, he's done well in the PSL (probably the strongest league after the IPL) and his 2021 Blast was strong. Whilst he didn't get a fifty in the Hundred an average of 23 and strike rate of 130 wasn't holding the Rockets back tremendously either.

Going unsold at the IPL I would guess may have more to do with the failed drugs test and stigma around that than performance.

I of course agree on enjoying this squads performance while it lasts. That we are still discussing a strong contender to win a World Cup despite missing 3 players who would definitely be in the XI (Archer, Stokes, Roy) plus another 2 close contenders (Mills and Curran) shows how far the team have come in white ball cricket.

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Post by alfie Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:03 am

Also looking forward to tonight's game (not without some anxiety it must be said : I reckon NZ are playing pretty well themselves) ; despite the unfriendly starting time in these parts...

Have come around to the view that it would probably be better to bring in Billings and maintain the long batting list than add the luxury of a seventh bowling option ; mainly because this is NZ - and the most likely way they could upset the England applecart is by ripping out a few wickets in the power play with their excellent pace attack. Should that happen , I would like the idea of as good a player as Billings being around at seven to maximise the chances of a strong finish to the innings.
It is true the Moeen/Livingstone pair might come under some pressure at some point : but it hasn't really happened yet so why not continue to trust them ? (if anything it is the seamers who have been occasionally expensive). Incidentally I am not sure that Morgan failed to use Livingstone against SA from any fear he would be hammered - rather suspect he wanted to ensure the revised pace set up without Mills had a full workout before the knockout games.
That pace group isn't quite the ideal combination as really only Jordan is a recognised death bowler ; but as none of the other potential selections are optimal "all round" types (Willey really an opening spell specialist , Curran basically the other end) and your other all rounders are all spinners , it is hard to get the perfect mix. The bowlers have , with one exception , done the job so far ; and the bats are generally billed as "capable of chasing any total" so it make sense to me to stick with the game plan.

The one concern I have with going batting heavy again is it almost guarantees the same approach for the final , should they make it. (Would be a "brave" call to change the plan for the biggest game of all !) And while that might work fine I wonder if they might not regret not having a fourth pace option there - particularly if Australia were to make it through with their own batting heavy line-up. And yes I do remember they were blown away in the group game ; just not assuming it would happen again...

Anyway that is all supposition , and as useless at present as musing about those who aren't available. Winning this game is all that matters now , so hopefully however they line up they are ready to perform at their best and justify Duty's bouncy optimism Smile

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:58 am

I have placed a bet on a NZ/Aus double (5/1 odds) in the semi finals - or as I am terming it, win some money if the doomsday scenario occurs World T20 discussion thread - Page 4 1f603

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Post by VTR Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:38 am

All the hype around Buttler ahead of this match. Its justified based on performances so far, but you just know a golden duck is incoming!

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Post by Duty281 Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:39 am

Got a nice wedge on England winning the tournament at 7/4. The only team I thought was ahead of England pre-tournament was India, but they didn't turn up until it was too late.

Big gap between England and New Zealand, decent gap between England and Pakistan, and as for England and Australia...I've got no idea how Australia got this far. It was a big upset for them to get past South Africa.

Even with all these injuries and absences, England are the best in the world and they'll show it over the next two games. Can England apply to play in the IPL? They'd win that too.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:56 am

VTR wrote:All the hype around Buttler ahead of this match. Its justified based on performances so far, but you just know a golden duck is incoming!

I am very worried about this too - silly isn't it, someone is the player of the tournament and in great form, and as England fans we're all thinking he's due a bad one  Smile

But similarly, Bairstow is yet to truly fire...so quite fancy him to go well today. Also manifesting a Moeen Ali masterclass
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Post by Afro Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:13 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I have placed a bet on a NZ/Aus double (5/1 odds) in the semi finals - or as I am terming it, win some money if the doomsday scenario occurs  World T20 discussion thread - Page 4 1f603


I have popped a bit on NZ today for the same reason. Bit of compensation.

England are ahead of the other 3, but too short a price for me to put money on, given the one off game and how much of a lottery the short format is
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Post by Afro Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:15 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:All the hype around Buttler ahead of this match. Its justified based on performances so far, but you just know a golden duck is incoming!

I am very worried about this too - silly isn't it, someone is the player of the tournament and in great form, and as England fans we're all thinking he's due a bad one  Smile

But similarly, Bairstow is yet to truly fire...so quite fancy him to go well today. Also manifesting a Moeen Ali masterclass

I am worried about Bairstow too. He is really short of runs and has proven to be a bit of a confidence player in the past. Hopefully he sees returning to the top of the order as the change he needs and recent form won't play on his mind
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