Scotland 2022 summer tour

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Scotland 2022 Six Nations Lookahead

A place to discuss the rollercoaster of dark horse conversation and sheer despair. Somewhere in-between, someone will go off on a mild tangent.

Schedule
5th Feb - England (H)
12th Feb - Wales (A)
26th Feb - France (H)
12th March - Italy (A)
19th March - Ireland (A)

Scotland's recent performances
2021: 4th (3 wins, same as 2nd)
2020: 4th (3 wins, same points as 3rd)
2019: 5th (1 win, 1 draw)
2018: 3rd (3 wins, same as 2nd)
2017: 4th (3 wins, same points as 2nd)

I didn't see the game - will find it tomorrow.

I'll take that result any day of the week. Nice to see our sloppiness not costing us the match though.

Mrs Cake and I are heading to Edinburgh next weekend. We will be in Morningside, can anyone suggest a place to watch the game?

I haven't lived in Edinburgh for over 5 years but the Golf tavern in Bruntsfield was always good for watching sport.

I thought that was a very brave performance. A rugby version of Ali's rope a dope strategy. They had complete faith in their defensive systems and confidence in their ability to score whenever the opportunities arose. They allowed England to throw lots of punches without really landing a blow and then delivered a couple of suckered punches.

For various reasons, I was not able to give the match my full attention at the time.

However, Having seen it now a few things jump out at me.

1. It was a really tight game that could have gone either way and we would have definitely lost a few years ago. are we now past our learning phase?

2. We are a hell of a hard team to beat now, what a defensive effort!

3. Finn Russell remains a magician and it is a myth that he is not a good kicker at this level!

4. DVDM is bad in the air is also another myth, perpetuated by the England coach, they targeted him and he caught everything!

5. Ben White the new SH showed why Toonie picked him over Vellacott. He had a very solid debut and scored a great try.

6. Matt Fagerson showed us he might still be the No.8 we hope he might be.

7. Darcy Graham, who i thought was lucky to be in the team, proved me wrong.


This win will count for nothing if we don't back it up against Wales next weekend!

Watching the game now - what a try from White. I liked everything about it - England never settled from the moment the quick lineout was taken to the try scored. Organised chaos, but at the right point in time as opposed to every single time like we used to do.

Delighted for my mates on here and elsewhere. Great win. Whatever happens in Cardiff, it’s my favourite game whatever. I love going away and home when I can for Wales v Scotland. Just a great atmosphere always. If any of you are down, hope I see you for a pint.

Agreed on all points BigGee, especially regarding Fagerson and Graham who were both terrific.

Scotland played well today (in patches) I think they played better when Smith went off and LCD got the yellow card and penalty try.

Scotland are showing signs of being a top team but they have to back up the win this week by winning next week.

I truly believe that if Scotland do not win the 6 nations this year they never will.

majesticimperialman wrote:Scotland played well today (in patches) I think they played better when Smith went off and LCD got the yellow card and penalty try.

Scotland are showing signs of being a top team but they have to back up the win this week by winning next week.

I truly believe that if Scotland do not win the 6 nations this year they never will.

Two words.

Dublin. Ireland.

I think we’ll beat wales. And we have a chance at home vs France. Italy will be just Italy. Ireland away though is an entirely different prospect.

Reflecting on the match, it does seem that Scotland have gotten better at winning these tight ones. Similar to Australia in the autumn, once they hit the front in the latter stages it always felt like they would see it out in the end. Yesterday that was down to being defensively so solid: Tandy and Harris deserve a huge amount of credit for their work in building and leading the defensive effort. They were helped by a lack of direct running threat in the English backline, and some slightly baffling tactics of repeatedly kicking from attacking positions. Not the worst idea in the world with the new goal-line drop-out law, and the very long deadball area at Murrayfield, but England definitely overdid it.

Thought Toonie made better use of his bench too, with Schoeman and Skinner in particular having strong impacts, but really the whole bench got into the game nicely. It will be interesting to see if any of them has played themselves into the starting team next week, or whether Toonie prefers to go with similar impact. Tuipulotu for Johnson another possible change? Hope Ritchie's not out for too long, that looked like a nasty one. Assuing he's out, does Bradbury come in? Or go for a more like-for-like in Darge/Christie?

I expect Wales to bounce back somewhat next week, but they do have a very long injury list still. Scotland will want to get their hands on the ball more, and (not unrelatedly) cut down on the cheap penalties.

Scotland looked good, pretty much what I expected tbh. If you can keep the majority of your side fit and up the attacking game a notch, you could be there or there abouts come the business end I reckon.

I think Toonie summed things perfectly when he said something like "we can play a lot better, but then our standards are a lot higher than they used to be".

It was a classic modern Toonie performance where we had an extremely good defence and were tough to break down. It's not sustainable to have such little possession and high penalty count though, and we'll get punished in the rest of the tournament if we keep that up.

There's actually other areas of concern too which we managed to get away with, but may not have the same luck another day. Kick off receipts were still awful - Scotland has been bad at this as long as I've been watching rugby! Our kicking game is great but our ability to challenge in the air is still well behind our rivals. Not just chasing our own kicks  but competing the contestables too. Steward sliced an up and under yet despite 4 of our guys being near the ball he still managed to regain it. Scrum is a concern too  - last 6N it was solid as a rock but in November it was shakey and is showing the same signs this 6N. On the plus side our lineout was much improved.

It feels weird raising negatives after beating England but we need to aim high here!

My player ratings:

Sutherland - 6.5
Doesn't look fully match fit which isn't a surprise, but was very physical in the contact area

Turner - 7
Perfect lineout gets him an extra point! Not as standout in the loose as normal but part of a solid pack performance

Fagerson - 6.5
Some big hits bit also pinged a few times in the scrum.

Gray - 6.5
His quietest performance for Scotland in a long time. Skinner made good impact off the bench. Could his place be under threat...? He still had our 2nd highest tackle count though.

Gilchrist - 8
Put in a huge shift, ran a much improved lineout plus he had a few crucial steals. In the running for MOTM.

Ritchie - 6.5
He's rarely a clear standout but is such an important part of our team. Doesn't look good for his injury which is a real concern.

Watson - 6.5
Quiet by his high standards but was part of a huge defensive shift.

Fagerson - 8.5
I've been one of his most vocal critics on here but that was some performance. 16/16 tackles, 5m average per carry (in heavy traffic) with two tackle breaks, plus an early steal. Came under pressure from Bradbury for the 8 shirt but has risen to the occasion. More of the same please!

Price - 6.5
His box kicks are an incredibly high standard now, regularly getting close to halfway from clearances from the 22.  Recovered well after being pretty rattled from the incident with Simmons. Would have been nice to see close up replays of the incident as there may have been something in it if Simmons connected to face - maybe juts a hand off though.

Russell - 7.5
A world class kicking perform. Didn't have much of a chance in attack and still some moments of Finnsanity, but his kicking from hand and at the posts was flawless.

VDM - 7
Was clearly targeted under the high ball but handled it with ease. I think his time with the Lions massively improved him in this facet of play - preparing for SA forced him to work hard on his game. Some trademark big carries. Fun fact - he didn't have to make a tackle all game!

Johnson - 6

Quiet game where he struggled to get involved.

Harris - 6.5
Same as Johnson but as a defensive leader he deserves and extra half mark.

Graham - 8
To quote McGeechan, he is definitely a "test match animal". Questions were asked of his selection as he's had a disrupted season, but he was a spark all day. His run for the first try was fantastic - Marchant falling on his ass created an easy 2 on 1 which wouldn't have been there if he hadn't beaten Marchant. He got the key turnover right at the end of the game too. 6 defenders beaten.

Hogg - 6.5
Didn't get much of a chance in attack but showed great positional play and kicking game. A few hairy moments though that's for sure!

Great comments above! Agree totally.

Watching the likes of Hogg and Russell walking around Murrayfield with the Calcutta cup yesterday evening really made me realise how special this group of senior players are. I was at the Wales game when Hogg made his debut from the bench early on and what a leader he’s become. Even if Scotland don’t win the 6N I’d call this a golden period of Scottish rugby history now that the players can win huge games like that while not playing their best. Roll on Wales!

Wouldn't argue with those too much RDW, but I think you're being a bit harsh on Hogg. Didn't get many opportunities ball in hand, but it was his half-break and offload that released Graham for the try (I think). While there will be criticisms of his risky tap-back to avoid touch in the second half which so nearly led to an England try, I think it was a calculated risk. It prevented a 50-22 close to Scotland's line, and at that stage England were definitely dominating the maul on their ball. And of course having just beaten Malins (I think) to the loose ball Hogg was good enough to then stay on his feet long enough to secure possession and a decent exit. Also led the side generally well.

Yeah fair enough Mad for - you're right and I wouldn't be against giving him at least a 7. He had a couple of clearing kicks charged down to lose half a mark.

You can tell how respected he is by the team - they almost look on him in awe when he speaks.

Agree with those ratings, perhaps an extra half point for Ritchie and Hogg.

The bench was also handy, and we've found something in Ben White, who looks like a very useful allrounder at 9. All the subs brought something.

Next week I assume Bradbury just comes in for Ritche and hopefully, a place for Darge on the bench. Hamish was a bit off his usual self, and Skinner can play 6 if needed, so I'd pick Darge on the bench ahead of Haining or Bayliss.

12 is the other position under the microscope for me. Johnson did little wrong, and Tui brings a great physical directness, but Redpath must be entering the equation here. Perhaps start with Tui and have Redpath take his place on the bench.

I think Redpath will come in next week, all he really needed was game time and he has had 4 games now,

I think he will start at 12 and Tuipolutu will stay on the bench covering both centre spots.

Skinner made a pretty compelling case to start as well, maybe over JG, who still does not look completely up to speed.

Bradbury could play 6 and Darge to bench. That is probably the most likely case, though Christie could also be in the mix. Bayliss is likely to sit this one out as well due to his head knock.

White did more than enough to keep his bench spot, but you do suspect Toonie will want to see Vallacott at some stage as well.


Hard to see many changes though, there is a lot of value in being such a settled team.

RDW, if 6 is an average performance, I think we can drop Sutherland, Zander, Gray, Ritchie, Watson, Johnson, Harris and Hogg by a half point. The standards are high and frankly we were outplayed yesterday. Generally agree with the comments though.

In terms of subs Schoeman, Skinner and White provided plenty of impact whilst Tuipulotu, Nel and Bradbury matched what they came on for.

In terms of Wales, I am expecting the scrum work to be much better. Our line-out was good and I want Turner to be better at saying to the assistant about the gap. England closed it multiple times to nothing before he threw in and they only got one free kick against them. If he complained earlier, that could have made the margin of error easier for him. As it was, him and McInally had a good day at the office.

For replacements,

- It sounds like Ritchie did the splits which might mean a tear and his Six Nations over. Bradbury should come in and, whilst tempted to put him at 8, M Fagerson had the sort of game where he deserves to keep his jersey. With Wales love of OS's, Darge edges it over Christie for the bench.

- Gray or Gilchrist drops out with Skinner coming in. Cummings to bench.

- S Johnson had a quiet game because we had little ball go out to him. Tuipulotu, Redpath and Hutchinson would have been anonymous as well and a target for England to attack. Wales with Tompkins and likely Watkin (Adams had a mare at 13 so assume they have learned to give him club games to learn the role), I don't mind any of the four of them playing. If Christie is at BS, my decision changes to Johnson or Tuipulotu to give an extra carrier to help the back row.

Agree that there may not be too many changes. However, Cardiff is a very difficult place for Scotland. FES still had some lingering traces of humanity in his Thatcherite soul when Scotland last won there.
Applying a hypercritical eye to yesterday might lead to;
Schoeman starts and Sutherland benches
Rambo starts Turner benches
Gray rested Cummings into 23
Bradbury at 6
Hamish had a quiet game Darge replaces him. Haining to bench.
Shona starting at 12 Steyn to bench.

I think Toonie will make some changes (a) to pick a side specifically to beat Wales (b)to keep players grounded and (c) because the Tombola must be obeyed

Watson seemed to have a wuiet game but made 16/16 tackles. Apparently he has not missed on at international level for something like 3 seasons now, quite extraordinary

Can't see him not starting in all honesty. If Darge debuts, then it will be off the bench.

I'm not sure about being hyper-critical. That was a good win. In an odd way I rather enjoy watching Eddie Jones' teams mental fight between the proscribed game plan (thou shalt not deviate!) and playing what is in front.

I think the challenge for Scotland is to figure out which Wales team will show up next weekend. I also wouldn't put Hamish on the bench. He was quiet yesterday (by his standards) but I doubt he can remain somewhat muzzled two weeks in a row.

jimbopip wrote:lingering traces of humanity in his Thatcherite soul

Too funny

jimbopip wrote: FES still had some lingering traces of humanity in his Thatcherite soul when Scotland last won there.

Humanity? There's no such thing. There are just individual profit centres out to screw each other over.

My confidence levels aren't great for Cardiff. We aren't as good as the result yesterday makes us look (we were outplayed for most of the game), and I don't think Wales are as bad as yesterday might suggest (Ireland were exceptional in patches).

Wales have plenty of dangerous players who can hurt us, and they will react to that performance against Ireland.

I think it'll be just as close as yesterday.

What a game to be at. Feeling tired and fragile but had an absolute blast! Did feel sorry for the England fans as from where I was sitting they looked the dominant team but as has already been said, if we're playing badly and winning then we're obviously overcoming the previous psychological issues that have dogged Scotland for so long.

I'm not sure toonie will ring the changes unless forced. Obviously Ritchie is one, Price might need another HIA. I think he's trying to keep a consistent group and allow them to improve game on game. Probably same XV bar Ritchie.

Personally I'd like to see tui start as he made a noticeable difference coming on. I'd have darge come straight in rather than promoting Bradbury from the bench. He's an impact sub but not a 60-80 minute player, plus isn't as much of a terror at the breakdown. I think toonie knows this and will probably go for Darge starting as a like-for-like.

Still concerned about kinghorn, really think toonie should be calling up Hastings, especially after his performances for Gloucester. If kinghorn was left to close out the game I think we'd be licking our wounds right now. We need a proper fly half on the bench. Don't put kinghorn there if you won't use him.

Definitely not a great performance but absolutely delighted with the win!

My main concern for Scotland going forwards is to amp up finishing the attack. Both tries came from England bonehead plays, though both were deep in the England end. Scotland appeared very patient and confident without the ball. Not sure if that's why England stated kicking their torrent of grubbers.

I think England started with the kicks from the off - even kicking away a 3 on 1 overlap early on. Clearly a (bad) coached tactic that led to multiple missed opportunities and relieved the pressure on Scotland in the 22. Criminal waste of possession ...

We might need another hooker in the squad for the next game as Ashman has just gone off injured playing for Sale against Quins. Looks like he did his ribs whilst scoring a try.

Tom Roebuck, Inverness born wing has scored a couple of good tries as well. He is one of the form wingers in the Premiership atm and will surely be someone worth a phone call at some stage or other.

We are not sort of decent wingers just now but he is a young lad who looks like he can continue to improve having just broken through into the Sale team.

Hazel Sapling wrote:. Wales with Tompkins and likely Watkin (Adams had a mare at 13 so assume they have learned to give him club games to learn the role), I don't mind any of the four of them playing. If Christie is at BS, my decision changes to Johnson or Tuipulotu to give an extra carrier to help the back row.

Pivac insisted the experiment of playing wing Adams in the centre was justified, while he says Louis Rees-Zammit was fit to play after picking up an ankle injury in the warm-up.

"I think Josh saved us on a number of occasions," said Pivac.

Maybe still thinking about doubling down if Haloholo is not fit. Fingers crossed

Doc, I'm not convinced by the "England bone head plays" theory. Back in the early 80's there was a Dutch football coach , van Coerver, who summed up the essential difference between English and Dutch philosophies, the English coach players to put so much pressure on the opposition that their ( the opponents) skills break down: the Dutch coach players to the point where no amount of pressure will break their skills down.
Scotland's first try was not Itoje's fault. Scotland have the lineout.  England expect a catch and drive. Scotland throw quickly to the front. Before the England defence can react and set themselves Scotland attack the 12 channel and set up a ruck which draws the England midfield in. Quickly recycled ball finds Hogg in the 13 channel with Itoje in front of him. Itoje knows if he holds his line and let's Hogg into his stride he'll get skinned so he shoots out the line hoping to panic Hogg. Hogg refuses to allow himself to panic and puts Graham into the gap and it's try time.
Scotland's second try ; Russell saw the space on the left and kick passes to Duhan. Cue a flood of English defenders reacting to the threat of the big winger . Quickly recycled ball and Russell knows Graham is in space on the right, all the backs having flocked to Duhan, and floats another perfect kick. LCD is running backwards and trying to catch the ball above his head.
In both instances the defenders were under so much pressure their skills broke down.  But the pressure didn't come about accidentally both moves were planned and practised.
I've said it before: that was a Rope A Dope performance.

jimbo if that was the England coaches' intent I can't see how continually kicking the ball away in the Scotland 22 was putting more pressure on them than keeping the ball in hand and going through the phases ....

Head, it's a two way conversation; Russell's kicks put the England defence under pressure partly due to their accuracy but also because Russell chose to kick early in the attack before the defence were set, England tended to kick when they weren't making progress and the defence was set OR conversely, kicked too early because that was the pre ordained plan. The Scotland squad believe Steve Tandy is the best defence coach in the world and that Chris Harris is the best defensive 13 in the world. This contributed to a belief in their defensive systems that meant they never really looked as if they were under the sort of pressure that leads to a breakdown of individual skills.
After Brazil thumped Scotland in the 82 world Cup one of the Scots' player said they thought they were doing really well because they had lots of possession...then they realised Brazil were giving them the ball in parts of the field were they didn't really want to be. Similarly, Scotland gave England a lot of the ball yesterday but were never really under unbearable pressure. The England defence wasn't pressured too often but when they were they were found lacking.

Hmm. 2 tries, 1 a mistake from the offcials allowing a quick lineout and 1 where LCD had a brain fart.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. 2 tries, 1 a mistake from the offcials allowing a quick lineout and 1 where LCD had a brain fart.  

What was the lineout issue? I haven’t rewatched yet, but will later in the week.

It's a technical I think. Shouldn't have been allowed to be taken until England had aligned as it was touched by multiple people and it wasn't the same ball as was kicked out. Unless that rule has changed and passed me by. I'll repeat England lost for other reasons and thought o'keefe had a good game. Simply a point re England turning over in defence.

I’ll watch back to check what happened but that law only normally applies to a quick throw in, not to a line-out taken quickly.

takethelongroad wrote:I’ll watch back to check what happened but that law only normally applies to a quick throw in, not to a line-out taken quickly.

Ah. I thought quick throw counted up to the point that the lineout hadn't been formed. When it was thrown England were still running to the lineout.

Would like to see Scotland win the 6 Nations, but cant see them beating Ireland or France.. See them finishing 4th.

jimbopip wrote:Head, it's a two way conversation; Russell's kicks put the England defence under pressure partly due to their accuracy but also because Russell chose to kick early in the attack before the defence were set, England tended to kick when they weren't making progress and the defence was set OR conversely, kicked too early because that was the pre ordained plan. The Scotland squad believe Steve Tandy is the best defence coach in the world and that Chris Harris is the best defensive 13 in the world.  This contributed to a belief in their defensive systems that meant they never really looked as if they were under the sort of pressure that leads to a breakdown of individual skills.
After Brazil thumped Scotland in the 82 world Cup one of the Scots' player said  they thought they were doing really well because they had lots of possession...then they realised Brazil were giving them the ball in parts of the field were they didn't really want to be. Similarly, Scotland gave England a lot of the ball yesterday but were never really under unbearable pressure. The England defence wasn't pressured too often but when they were they were found lacking.

I'd go with kicked too early due to a pre-ordained plan - that was a garbage plan

No 7&1/2 wrote:

takethelongroad wrote:I’ll watch back to check what happened but that law only normally applies to a quick throw in, not to a line-out taken quickly.

Ah. I thought quick throw counted up to the point that the lineout hadn't been formed. When it was thrown England were still running to the lineout.

I was a bit puzzled by that too - had they called the numbers even?

I would have also looked at the ball not going 5m - it was close but the receiver had his foot on the 5m line and caught the ball in front of his head so it looked a bit short to me, although it would be very tight.

takethelongroad wrote:I’ll watch back to check what happened but that law only normally applies to a quick throw in, not to a line-out taken quickly.

You are correct ttlr. If there are two players from each side at the point where the ball has gone out then the line out is deemed to have been formed, is my understanding, so it was a legitimate linout. 
Even if it was taken too quickly, as our Kiwi friends keep telling us it's only illegal if the ref blows his whistle. From the instant the ball left Turner's hand the Scotland players knew exactly what they were supposed to do next whereas England didn't.  This led to Hogg v Itoje in the 13 channel. But hey, Scotland only scored that because of an illegally taken lineout.

jimbopip wrote:

takethelongroad wrote:I’ll watch back to check what happened but that law only normally applies to a quick throw in, not to a line-out taken quickly.

You are correct ttlr. If there are two players from each side at the point where the ball has gone out then the line out is deemed to have been formed, is my understanding, so it was a legitimate linout. 
Even if it was taken too quickly, as our Kiwi friends keep telling us it's only illegal if the ref blows his whistle. From the instant the ball left Turner's hand the Scotland players knew exactly what they were supposed to do next whereas England didn't.  This led to Hogg v Itoje in the 13 channel. But hey, Scotland only scored that because of an illegally taken lineout.

In which case yeah. There wasn't 2 players from each side. So yeah shouldn't have stood. Cheers.

Itoje was definitely there and there was another England player wandering towards the lineout back near the 15m line - whether he was 'in' the lineout at that point I suppose is debatable ... However there were 3 Scotland players in the lineout and I thought the numbers had to match?

No issue with it being taken quickly although I'd be interested in clarification of the laws re numbers.

I actually can't find anything about numbers other than the throwing in team sets the max allowed so maybe they don't have to wait for the opposing team to match their numbers after all? If so England should have just stood off until they were ready as Scotland wouldn't have been able to throw in until at least two England players moved in - another lack of attention to detail from England maybe?

On the BBC highlights tonight, they clearly show that 2 England players were in the line and that the line-out was legal.

This was also confirmed by World Rugby

They also confirmed that there were no obvious offences in the series of scrums at the end

Yeah no.

Ah Gee you walked into the elephant trap ! Now we can all say,
Facts!! You can prove anything with facts.

And yet not. I get you want to big up the performance jim but it's more a case of a throw away than win.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yet not. I get you want to big up the performance jim but it's more a case of a throw away than win.

In the history books, it will go down as neither bigged up nor thrown away, merely a win!

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yet not. I get you want to big up the performance jim but it's more a case of a throw away than win.

In the history books, it will go down as neither bigged up nor thrown away, merely a win!

Yup. Never my point though.