Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[VTR]

First topic message reminder :

Don't know anything about that number 9 and 10, are they decent hitters that just happen to be low in the order, or were England again awarding outlier performances to the opposition?

[sirfredperry]

Still think the declaration was barmy, especially as Wood couldn't bowl.

Against arguably the weakest opening attack England have had for years, WI should have given it a go. They could always have shut up shop if wickets had fallen. A quick start like they had in the first innings could have left England floundering, although the draw was always the most likely result.

Windies are no great shakes, but this was still a good result for England. Pleased that Crawley got a 100 although he would be so much more use as a four or five if England only had some openers.

As mentioned above, important, too, that Leach has done well given the paucity of the bowling.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To be honest I thought it was a pretty dull test match throughout - not really captured my viewership much even when I’ve been able to watch

Hopefully the pitch will be a little more interesting for T2 and T3. I wouldn’t say from what I’ve read that it’s a lock that Robinson will be fit for T2, and it seems like they’ve learnt absolutely nothing from how they handled Jofra’s elbow with Wood (why is he bowling before play on day 5 if within a few balls he pulls up with “acute pain” in his elbow? Do englands medical staff get some sort of weird pleasure from breaking people?) - and it sounds like he will not only miss the rest of this tour but might take a while to come back fully. 

Nice to see Crawley, Root and Bairstow get centuries - I thought Lawrence looked ok on the highlights during his brief cameo on day 5, and actually commend him for playing for the team in that scenario when he could quite easily have just plodded around and played for his own average

[king_carlos]

To be honest I thought it was a pretty dull test match throughout - not really captured my viewership much even when I’ve been able to watch

I felt similar but that feeling set in before T1 started to be honest. Feels sacrosanct to say as I've been a near obsessive cricket fan who follows the England Test side religiously for most my life. With how packed the schedule is now I'm definitely feeling less interest in certain series as a fan. 15 (could have been more...) Test last year, the Ashes, now this hot on the heels. Quality over quantity is direly needed.

I will be the first to admit that if England weren't so rubbish at the minute I might find that engagement easier though.

A bit like T20 vs 50 over discussions, where I tend to prefer T20. Often that discussion revolves around which format is 'fairer' or the best side wins more often, which is more nuanced, ODIs have more history, etc. I will very happily admit that part of my frequent ambivalence to 50 over cricket is simply down to England being so abysmal at it whilst I was growing up. For so long the England ODI side played a style of white ball cricket that made the format miserable and nearly futile to follow. If I'd been an Aussie fan in the same era watching Gilly/Haydos/Punter etc batting and Warne/McGrath/Lee/Hogg/Bracken etc bowling I may well feel very different.

Staying engaged is easier when your teams doing well at the end of the day. Fact remains I've supported many poor Test sides with full focus in smaller series before though. The schedule is helping nothing but three boards short term revenue streams.

[Soul Requiem]

I agree with that KC, it's the first test in a long time I paid very little attention and didn't watch a single ball. As evidenced by my posts I've been more concerned with the exterior goings on.

The description of the pitch didn't help, it doesn't make for compelling viewing when it's so obviously a road. I do think it's about time the ICC ensured sporting pitches that offer a contest.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

2nd test tomorrow - haven't seen any official team news for either side yet, but word from reporters seems to suggest Robinson will be fit to play...if they choose to risk him. No word on Wood but seems very unlikely he will be available for this 2nd test.

So some shuffling of the bowling attack potentially...Mahmood in for Wood and Robinson for Overton would make most sense? For the love of christ don't go in with a Woakes/Overton/Robinson seam attack...

[alfie]

Hope Olly's recommendations are adopted...agree the lack of a real pace option would be a bit dispiriting ...

Unless this appears to be a spinner's track : then could maybe mount a case for Stokes + Woakes/Robinson + Leach/Parkinson ? Don't think this is likely ; but if the pitch ever suggests it , will they have the balls to try it ?

I was unable to watch the last two days of Test One but actually a bit encouraged from reports to see (a) England bats turning up in second knock when trailing (albeit flat deck) : nice to see Crawley getting a proper score again. Love watching him - but too often knowing I won't be watching for long
(b) Root declaring to try and force an (unlikely) win. OK , didn't happen : but surely the endeavour deserves a tick ? I see there were mixed views on here as to the wisdom of trying for victory against the arguably strategically better plan of resting your bowlers and tiring the opponent's with an eye to the next game ...and I agree you could make a case either way. But I reckon I come down on the attacking side in the end : we will see how it plays out.
One doubt being the overs Stokes bowled. Probably hard to get the ball out of his hand sometimes. But maybe Lawrence - and Root himself - might have bowled a few more ?

Anyway , that's done. At least not a loss for a change ! Presume Wood is out so it really is an issue of "can we trust Robinson to survive his first spell ?" (Will be a bit of an issue going forward if they can't !)

Batting settled for a change , though Lees will need some runs. Otherwise I can see the possibility of the third game featuring Lawrence as opener and an extra bowler picked if the series remains locked...

Back in town for Friday so look forward to seeing a more "live" game than last week...

[king_carlos]

Mahmood confirmed as Wood's replacement so will make his debut. Robinson still sidelined though, which is a big blow as likely means a Woakes and Overton opening partnership.

If the Windies are smart they will produce another batting friendly track, albeit not such a feather bed, rather than the very seamer favoured tracks they've tended towards the last few years.

Sounds like Liam Norwell will be called up. A good bowler but from what I've seen he's another right-arm fast-medium English style seamer who's already past 30.

It's a shame Brydon Carse is injured for this tour.

[Duty281]

Good chance for Mahmood, unless the pitch is another dead duck. I worry he'll be misused as a 'bang it in' bowler.

The second test is taking place in Barbados, as close to a West Indian fortress as there is. And this is where it all happened last time. And by 'it all happened' I mean England getting rolled for 77, Holder made a double ton, he and Dowrich had an unbroken stand that nearly topped 300, and then Chase took 8/60 without actually spinning one.

Lot of pressure on Woakes and Overton to deliver after their struggles in the second test.

[JDizzle]

Good chance for Mahmood, unless the pitch is another dead duck. I worry he'll be misused as a 'bang it in' bowler.

The second test is taking place in Barbados, as close to a West Indian fortress as there is. And this is where it all happened last time. And by 'it all happened' I mean England getting rolled for 77, Holder made a double ton, he and Dowrich had an unbroken stand that nearly topped 300, and then Chase took 8/60 without actually spinning one.

Lot of pressure on Woakes and Overton to deliver after their struggles in the second test.

Yeah - I have voiced this concern about Mahmood a few times. He is sharp, but his strength is his skiddy delivery and the fact he can swing both the new ball and reverse the old ball. Mark Wood is the quickest bowler in the world, Saqib is not even close. Don't try and treat him as the battering ram.

I am interested to see if he can reverse the old Dukes ball though. He's been lethal in the PSL doing it with the white ball, so will be interesting to see if it translates.

I did see a stat on Twitter that since 2017 in home Tests vs left handers Roach averages 16 vs left handers. This is including 18 wickets at 11.70 in first 25 overs vs them. This will be a big test for Lees...

[JDizzle]

Mahmood confirmed as Wood's replacement so will make his debut. Robinson still sidelined though, which is a big blow as likely means a Woakes and Overton opening partnership.

If the Windies are smart they will produce another batting friendly track, albeit not such a feather bed, rather than the very seamer favoured tracks they've tended towards the last few years.

Sounds like Liam Norwell will be called up. A good bowler but from what I've seen he's another right-arm fast-medium English style seamer who's already past 30.

It's a shame Brydon Carse is injured for this tour.

England have probably never had as many 90mph bowlers as they do now - Wood, Archer, Stone, Carse - and of course they are all injured at the same time!

[king_carlos]

Mahmood confirmed as Wood's replacement so will make his debut. Robinson still sidelined though, which is a big blow as likely means a Woakes and Overton opening partnership.

If the Windies are smart they will produce another batting friendly track, albeit not such a feather bed, rather than the very seamer favoured tracks they've tended towards the last few years.

Sounds like Liam Norwell will be called up. A good bowler but from what I've seen he's another right-arm fast-medium English style seamer who's already past 30.

It's a shame Brydon Carse is injured for this tour.

England have probably never had as many 90mph bowlers as they do now - Wood, Archer, Stone, Carse - and of course they are all injured at the same time!

Garton must be able to get up there as well when he finds his rhythm. Mills could at one time too.

Pace bowlers getting injured isn't just an England problem though. It's not a recent England problem either of course. From the 05 side that had 3 quicks all of Flintoff, Jones and Harmison had varying issues, sadly.

The change to front foot no balls rather than back foot had a clear reason with bowlers dragging their back foot before releasing but there's also some good arguments the front foot no ball is much worse for bowlers bodies.

[Duty281]

England batting after winning the toss. Overton's ill, so Fisher is making his debut alongside Mahmood (not Leach!).

[JDizzle]

Presume Saqib will take the new ball now, which will be fun when it is time for that. Sometime between lunch on tea and Day 1.

[sirfredperry]

This is surely England's weakest bowling attack for, what....ever?

As the batting is nothing to write home about, it cannot have been often that England have put such a mediocre side out.

But at least England are batting first which, for me, is always a plus. (Now, how many wickets will they be down at lunch?)

[VTR]

Probably only some of the experimental sides on early tours to Bangladesh had an attack as weak as this on paper in the last 20 years or so

[Soul Requiem]

This is surely England's weakest bowling attack for, what....ever?

As the batting is nothing to write home about, it cannot have been often that England have put such a mediocre side out.

But at least England are batting first which, for me, is always a plus. (Now, how many wickets will they be down at lunch?)

It's an oft mentioned line up and feel it's worth another mention here;

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/new-zealand-tour-of-england-1999-62074/england-vs-new-zealand-4th-test-63844/full-scorecard

[Duty281]

Early days, but it seems like another lifeless, dead, slow track.

At least we won't have to watch Overton sending looping 77mph bouncers down the leg side this time.

[guildfordbat]

Astute comments by Gower. Amongst the praise for Lees about him toughing out the session, Gower effectively warns that he'll need to be more than a poor man's Sibley if he is to cut it at this level.

[sirfredperry]

Relieved to see England only one down at lunch, albeit with very few runs scored.

SR - Interesting to see that E v NZ scorecard from 1999. Yes, the England tail that match was ultra long, with Caddick at eight.

But as far as strength goes you have four batters who scored mightily for England in that XI - Atherton, Hussain, Stewart and Thorpe. That's more than 60 Test 100s.

As for the bowling, Caddick took 234 Test wickets and Tufnell 121. So it wasn't such a bad side.

[VTR]

White, Tudor, Dawson, Silverwood, Harmison (playing something like his second Test). 3rd Test away to Australia 2002/3. That is about the worst I can find post the year 2000

Australia lineup was Lee, Gillespie, Warne, McGrath

[Soul Requiem]

Relieved to see England only one down at lunch, albeit with very few runs scored.

SR - Interesting to see that E v NZ scorecard from 1999. Yes, the England tail that match was ultra long, with Caddick at eight.

But as far as strength goes you have four batters who scored mightily for England in that XI - Atherton, Hussain, Stewart and Thorpe. That's more than 60 Test 100s.

As for the bowling, Caddick took 234 Test wickets and Tufnell 121. So it wasn't such a bad side.

As far as established players go;

Atherton- 16 in 115 (7728)
Hussain- 14 in 96 (5764)
Thorpe- 16 in 100 (6744)
Stewart- 15 in 133 (8463)

*Ramprakash- 2 in 52 (2350)*

61 centuries in 444 matches for an average of one century every 7.2 matches (28,699 total runs)

Root- 24 in 115 (9722)
Stokes- 10 in 77 (4916)
Bairstow- 8 in 81 (4730)

42 centuries in 273 matches for an average of one century every 6.5 matches (19,368)

I don't think there's a huge difference between the relative strength of the batting. I appreciate that Root is doing a lot of the heavy lifting but Stokes and Bairstow aren't far of the numbers of Atherton, Hussain and Stewart. Bairstow has a high batting average when keeping wicket than Stewart did.

*not included in numbers

[guildfordbat]

White, Tudor, Dawson, Silverwood, Harmison (playing something like his second Test). 3rd Test away to Australia 2002/3. That is about the worst I can find post the year 2000

Australia lineup was Lee, Gillespie, Warne, McGrath

Good work, VTR. That's impressively bad. Even when Tudor wasn't injured, he thought he was!

[TRUSSMAN66]

People pay to watch this ???

[Duty281]

Could be worse, could be Nascar.

[VTR]

This pitch does appear to be another trash heap. Shame, as Windies pitches used to produce exciting cricket

[Duty281]

Lawrence distraught as he falls in the last over of the day, nine short of a first test century.

But England in a decent position at 244/3, though the West Indies spilled a few catches. Will be tough to take twenty wickets on this pitch and with the bowling attack selected, so scoreboard pressure and reaching 450+ is paramount.

[king_carlos]

People pay to watch this ???

Truss is back!! Surely you can find a poll somewhere online to prove people do or don't pay to watch this and throw in an insult for Keir Starmer or Joe Biden?

I’ve been doing home work-outs for about 3-4 years now but it’s becoming quite difficult as my cat keeps attacking me when I do push-ups or pullovers.  I’ve decided to join the gym down the road but am a bit stuck as to what to wear.  It should be something tight to make my knob look bigger but all I’ve got is some shiny shorts that are so small they give me a boner whenever I move.  I’ve tried using a leotard like wrestlers do but whenever I lift weights above my head my balls pop out on either side of the wedgie strip and hang like when you shove grapefruits into stockings to suspend them.   Is there any place I can get cheap clothes as I don’t really fancy wearing my jeans?

Thanking you in anticipation.

I remember the days when poster going on a fishing expedition would offer up that kind of tantalising bait from Galted on the now abandoned weightlifting board. There's a strange beauty in the contrast between the dishonesty of Galts obviously made up conundrum but also the underlying honesty required to lay bare just how little he had to do that day by taking the time to write and post it. It's almost courageous in a way.

If anything we should probably start a poll to see what percentage of posters think Galted was courageous by talking publicly about his struggles with tight gym wear and untimely erections.

[alfie]

Cannot go near topping the above posts...

Just noting England seem to have had a good day. Pitch a bit on the flat side , I gather...might be a difficult one for the two new boys to debut with the ball : reckon England might want a few more runs then. No guarantees : new ball still , and Root doesn't always restart on a new day so work to do.

Lawrence pretty impressive ? Seems to be getting praised on BBC as rather out shining Root ; or was that just the novelty ?

[sirfredperry]

England's batting woes have been so acute of late that fans ought to welcome a 244 for three day - flat pitch or not.

Root has put in an incredible shift since the beginning of 2021. Given the parlous state of England's top order, it could be argued that his efforts in 2021/22 have been among the finest an Eng batsman has ever produced.

Good, also, to see someone else making some runs.

[Galted]

People pay to watch this ???

Truss is back!! Surely you can find a poll somewhere online to prove people do or don't pay to watch this and throw in an insult for Keir Starmer or Joe Biden?

I’ve been doing home work-outs for about 3-4 years now but it’s becoming quite difficult as my cat keeps attacking me when I do push-ups or pullovers.  I’ve decided to join the gym down the road but am a bit stuck as to what to wear.  It should be something tight to make my knob look bigger but all I’ve got is some shiny shorts that are so small they give me a boner whenever I move.  I’ve tried using a leotard like wrestlers do but whenever I lift weights above my head my balls pop out on either side of the wedgie strip and hang like when you shove grapefruits into stockings to suspend them.   Is there any place I can get cheap clothes as I don’t really fancy wearing my jeans?

Thanking you in anticipation.

I remember the days when poster going on a fishing expedition would offer up that kind of tantalising bait from Galted on the now abandoned weightlifting board. There's a strange beauty in the contrast between the dishonesty of Galts obviously made up conundrum but also the underlying honesty required to lay bare just how little he had to do that day by taking the time to write and post it. It's almost courageous in a way.

If anything we should probably start a poll to see what percentage of posters think Galted was courageous by talking publicly about his struggles with tight gym wear and untimely erections.

I think that I'm going to be fairly f*cked if I ever become famous.  Was bad enough with Tino and his ability to dredge up the past, but now we have KC hunting in a pair with him like velociraptors.

I miss the weightlifting board.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Didn't see any play yesterday so can't comment on the pitch, but if it is flat, nice for Root to be able to cash in on a road or two after some of the pitches he made centuries on last year. A few easy runs to pad his stats is good by me!

Shame Lawrence didn't make a century - will watch the highlights later but apparently another stylish knock. I do like watching him bat, even if it is unconventional

Lets hope they bat most of today, and put up 450+ and can apply scoreboard pressure for the inexperienced attack to defend/attack

[dummy_half]

So play underway again, and a calm start with only 8 runs in the first 4 overs. Stokes only one scoring shot so far. Optimistic review against Root - a bit of desperation?

Obviously the target for today is simply to bat as long as possible and try to put WI out of the chance to win the game. Slightly more fluent scoring than yesterday, which with Stokes and Bairstow is likely to be the case, would put us above 500 at the close.

Strange debate on the BBC commentary that Root cannot be considered England's best batsman because he hasn't an individual innings score in the top 10. Seems a spurious argument to me given that the 10th highest score was Crawley's 267, so a single mammoth innings is not necessarily evidence of greatness. OK, the top 3 (Hutton, Hammond and Gooch) is impressive, but otherwise a bit of a hit and miss list.

[Duty281]

I wouldn't mind England trying to bat into day three, question is whether they can.

It's difficult to compare across eras, but I think Root is certainly England's greatest test batsman of this century. The point about not (yet) having an individual score in the top ten somehow excluding him from discussion as the greatest is silly. I see he's made five double tons, highest score being 254 - on this wicket he's got a great chance to exceed that today.

Saw this on Twitter, incidentally:

Fab 4 Test centuries at the start of 2021:

1. Virat Kohli - 27.
2. Steven Smith - 26.
3. Kane Williamson - 24.
4. Joe Root - 17.

Fab 4 Test centuries now:

1. Smith - 27.
2. Kohli - 27.
3. Root - 25.
4. Williamson - 24.

[Soul Requiem]

Strange debate on the BBC commentary that Root cannot be considered England's best batsman because he hasn't an individual innings score in the top 10. Seems a spurious argument to me given that the 10th highest score was Crawley's 267, so a single mammoth innings is not necessarily evidence of greatness. OK, the top 3 (Hutton, Hammond and Gooch) is impressive, but otherwise a bit of a hit and miss list.

It's just bizarre and screams of someone who doesn't understand cricket and how consistently scoring big is more difficult than having the odd BIG score. It also fails to take into account the context that some of those runs were scored in, Crawley for instance scored 267 on a dead pitch, very good innings but not a great one. Root has ten 150+ scores, three of them coming last year on the subcontinent.

On an individual basis you might compare Cook with Root and mention the mammoth innings that Cook scored but it's no the defining aspect. I tend to think the pair are a lot closer in the all time stakes than often made out, averaging over 45 as an English opener is incredible to be honest.

On a side note; Huttons 364 came off 847 balls in 797 minutes. Cooks 294 came off 545 balls in 773 minutes. That's going to work out being at least 90+ overs bowled in a similar timeframe.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

On an individual basis you might compare Cook with Root and mention the mammoth innings that Cook scored but it's no the defining aspect. I tend to think the pair are a lot closer in the all time stakes than often made out, averaging over 45 as an English opener is incredible to be honest.

Makes Root's average of 50 even better considering he is also basically an opener.

[dummy_half]

I wouldn't mind England trying to bat into day three, question is whether they can.

It's difficult to compare across eras, but I think Root is certainly England's greatest test batsman of this century. The point about not (yet) having an individual score in the top ten somehow excluding him from discussion as the greatest is silly. I see he's made five double tons, highest score being 254 - on this wicket he's got a great chance to exceed that today.

Saw this on Twitter, incidentally:

Fab 4 Test centuries at the start of 2021:

1. Virat Kohli - 27.
2. Steven Smith - 26.
3. Kane Williamson - 24.
4. Joe Root - 17.

Fab 4 Test centuries now:

1. Smith - 27.
2. Kohli - 27.
3. Root - 25.
4. Williamson - 24.

I think he's put to bed the criticism that he doesn't convert enough starts to centuries, which was kind of valid. Haven't redone the calculation recently, but last year, Root's average score when he passeed 100 was something like 160, and nudging 200 batting average (has a few not outs) - when he makes it into 3 figures, he often goes big.

Looks like Stokes is trying to get to his ton before Root makes 150...

[dummy_half]

On an individual basis you might compare Cook with Root and mention the mammoth innings that Cook scored but it's no the defining aspect. I tend to think the pair are a lot closer in the all time stakes than often made out, averaging over 45 as an English opener is incredible to be honest.

Makes Root's average of 50 even better considering he is also basically an opener.

I'd put Root ahead of Cook, but not by much. Root definitely has more ability and has probably been more consistent across his career (Cook had a few spells where he went half a dozen games with no real scores, whereas Root usually makes some contribution), but Cook was an exceptional opener and one of the few players we've had in the last 20 years who was great against spin.

[JDizzle]

I’d love to know what goes on in Stokes head when he gets on one of these rolls. Every ball has to go! Great to watch.

[dummy_half]

Passed the 100 runs for the session in 23.2 overs. Windies going to be a couple of overs short this session (12 minutes left, might get to 27 or 28) - probably excusable as they are retrieving the ball from all parts as Stokes is on an onslaught.

I thought I was joking about him getting to 100 before Root reaches 150, but it's getting closer.

[Duty281]

Glorious from Stokes. Great to see him enjoying himself. Box office.

And 5,000 test runs amid the carnage.

[dummy_half]

Just to put this into the match context, at 105 overs, England were 286-3, at 114 overs that had moved on to 362-3, so 76 runs in 9 overs. Test cricket is boring isn't it?

[VTR]

I forgot to post before play, that on my wish list for today was Stokes even getting a decent score over 50, say even 70 or 80 would show more progression back to full form. He's got that before lunch!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Didn't make an effort to watch because you told me how boring yesterday was, and check BBC Sport to see I've missed Stokes nearly scoring a century in a session

Much appreciated for England - hopefully he can continue after lunch, go make 550-600 odd now!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

On WI team note, I am really struggling to see how Permaul is in this XI...Cornwall is hardly a world beater but is pretty consistent and economical usually. Permaul is a shambles

[JDizzle]

On WI team note, I am really struggling to see how Permaul is in this XI...Cornwall is hardly a world beater but is pretty consistent and economical usually. Permaul is a shambles

550 FC wickets at 21… How?!

[JDizzle]

Masterful innings from Root comes to an end as Roach traps him LBW.

Time for Stokes to reign it back in a touch, as they still need 130 to get to 500 - which should be the bare minimum. Don’t want to have any stupid collapses.

[dummy_half]

Hundred up for Stokes and now England 400-4.

Wasn't this the type of position that we wanted Buttler coming in at? So rarely happened.

[JDizzle]

Stokes had decided Kraigg Braithwaite wasn’t good enough to bowl to him in a Test Match - and he gets two away before a 68mph long hop sees him caught at long off. Still no need for Foakes and Woakes to go mad, they can get themselves in before gradually increasing the rate.

[VTR]

Looks to me like England want 30 overs at the Windies today rather than batting more carefully to get to 550

[dummy_half]

Think Foakes and Woakes are doing a very sensible job, mostly nudging and nurdling along, but still going at about 3.5 to 4 an over

[Sponsored content]