6 Nations Round 3 - England v Wales

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales

Twickers, London
Saturday 26th Feb 2022
Kick Off - 1645hrs

England team

Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Nowell; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Ewels, Itoje, Lawes (Capt), Curry, Dombrandt.

Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Youngs, Ford, Marchant.

Wales Team

L Williams; Cuthbert, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams; Biggar (capt), T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham, Faletau.

Replacements: Lake, G Thomas, Brown, S Davies, Morgan, Hardy, Anscombe, J Davies.

And England don't have power or pace on the wings to turn to if our centres are snuffed out. Amazing how hope can turn to pessimism on the slight pull of a hamstring.

Sharkey06 wrote:And England don't have power or pace on the wings to turn to if our centres are snuffed out.  Amazing how hope can turn to pessimism on the slight pull of a hamstring.

If used right Nowell is a bit of a pin ball and can be tough to bring down. Steward if brought into the line at pace is another one that's not easy to bring down. Neither you are going to run into brick walls but if you have selected Randall and Smith and you are playing with slow ball you aren't going to be having a good day anyway. Give those two front foot ball and then as many running options off of Smith as you can.

Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Think Steward has the most metres full stop in the tournament, obviously his position has a lot to do with that. And if Wales look to keep the ball in play he'll have some more to make up. If the pack get on top again and play as well as they have Randall and Smith will love it, Jones has said he will be bring on Youngs to slow it down, so hopefully they make use of their time together!

We've seen a back rower in the midfield alot already so doubt that's going to change now.

mountain man wrote:Watkins had a really good game and think he's best bet in centre for Wales now Adams experiment was a disaster. That's why even more disappointing Manu is out, I can't see Slade and other making lots of headway against Welsh centres.

Interesting point, it will still be a big test for Watkin this weekend, but he's a big old lump, and if he can start to develop more of an attacking game he could be a real dual threat player.

Lol. I've obviously got a "fan" here. All my posts get a dislike even though saying pretty much same as lots of others.

That is funny

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just out in the wings....

Stewards not that much of a wrecking ball for his weight (at this level), doesn't really hit with a lot of momentum and a bit lanky rather than a compact powerhouse like Tuilagi or Cokasinga would be. As noted above his metres and carries are down to him being the primary recipient of kicks rather than England actively looking to get the ball to him at every opportunity from structured play, or him being massively effective in making breaks.

I really dont see England having a lot of individual threat in the backs without Tuilagi, but well capable of undoing Wales all the same if they can go through phases without coughing up cheap penalties.

Also yes its quite apparent that Jones is looking for his sides to hit the ground running and get the game played fast from the off. Wales were successful against Scotland by dragging them into a slow arm wrestle and dogged out a win, if they are successful in frustrating England could be a very tight game. But hard to see where Wales' significant attacking threat comes from if they are left chasing the game, they've not really shown much in the previous two rounds. Seen against Scotland though England can be undone if they dont turn early pressure into points.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Just under 16 stone per the Tigers website. I think he'll probably fill out to the 17 stone mark it's not like he's carrying a lot of bulky muscle currently.

It'll be interesting to see how he goes Vs Wales as Biggar likes to kick and make the life of the opposition fullback difficult.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've seen a back rower in the midfield alot already so doubt that's going to change now.

That's Dombrandt's speciality so you'd hope it would be him, make the most of his understanding with Smith at the same time.

Our attack functioning without a heavy carrier in the backs should be possible. As several of us have said many times this team did it for a couple of years at the start of EJs tenure.

I just don't feel like it's suddenly going to click at the minute though. Back when Ford-Faz-JJ was working well in attack the pack had Mako and Billy as go to carriers that consistently got over the gain line to produce momentum and quick ball. The lineout also felt like more of a weapon and therefore more of a platform.

The pack has carriers but not ones that make yards through contact against set defenses like the Vunipola's could at their best. The lineout is solid but not something I'd describe as a weapon since Kruis departed, though it should improve in attack and defence with Lawes back in the side.

I see some things that make me optimistic for the attack. For instance Randall, Dombrandt and Nowell are all runners who tend to threaten around the fringes of the rucks. If we can target early phase play around those areas, suck defenders in, then that could create space wider out for Smith. International fringe defences are just so strong now, reset so quickly and have such good line speed you tend not to see nearly as many yards made in those areas as we do in club rugby though.

To me it looks like a game between two sides with some very good players but a fair few flaws.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

Looked at the stats for the last 2 games
Vs Italy Steward ran 156m in 14 carries
Malins 85 in 13
Most of the other back had around 7 carries, except for Smith who had 12 runs for 97m
Vs Scotland
Steward 6 runs 44m
Malins 9 for 100
Daly Slade Marchant 5/7/4 runs

The opposition makes a huge difference I know. There will of course be plans on where to put pressure on the defense. Maybe Randall makes a difference too. Vs Scotland Smith passed the ball 15 times and ran it 4 times. Vs Italy passed 38 and ran it 12. England actually had less possession and territory vs Italy than they had vs Scotland.

It would seem that Smith was given a great deal more opportunity to control the game vs Italy compared to Scotland, and that will be because Randall was giving him the ball.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've seen a back rower in the midfield alot already so doubt that's going to change now.

That's Dombrandt's speciality so you'd hope it would be him, make the most of his understanding with Smith at the same time.

He's the obvious, though was used much more in the tight so far. Surely better than Lawes at it including his offloads.

Metres through contact rather than metres carried tends to be the stat that teams value these days. Metres carried is easier to measure, hence more readily available, but not actually that useful.

Full backs with the ball getting kicked to them will always come near the top of those stats but practically all those metres are running back practically unopposed.

There was a period when Billy V was still very good that his metres carried dropped and a few pundits fleetingly tried to suggest a decline then. In reality England had altered tactics so that Billy wasn't sitting back with the full back to return kicks England received around the half way line. As such his metres carried dropped but the number of carries he was making stayed very steady, his metres through contact remained very good. England had just altered tactics so that they used him in a different way.

I mis Ben Morgan when it comes to a number 8 running it back. He was great, Dombrandt could recapture some of that.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

Let me start by saying I like Steward at 15.  We need a rock who can be counted on catching high balls, and despite one miscue that I recall, he is certainly the man for the job.  And he needs game time to plus up other parts of his game.

What he doesn't provide at current is an additional distributor option from 15 which is probably not a concern with Slade in the centres.  Also, despite good top end speed, his acceleration at this moment is like an old Fiat 124.  Which makes it harder to be a hard yards type in the midfield which given his size and strength could develop into being a real weapon.  Both can be worked on and hopefully develop.

He is not even close to my main concern about this team, as I suppose others feel the same. He could be at 15 for England for a long time if the rest of his game comes together.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mis Ben Morgan when it comes to a number 8 running it back. He was great, Dombrandt could recapture some of that.

This is a great point. Would be very interesting and a great development to see Dombrandt (or Simmonds) drop back when kicks are clearly in the offing.

Aah yes the good old Ben Morgan rampage.

I still think he should have more caps...

Mr Bounce wrote:Aah yes the good old Ben Morgan rampage.

I still think he should have more caps...

He lost the battle vs Billy. His highlights real is pretty good though. He certainly could shift for a fatty.

Simmonds does definitely get around the pitch but then he's fast. That last Blamire try vs Australia (I think) was all about Simmonds running from deep.

I think for so many of these players, particularly the ones who have been out of the team for a long time, we often tend to get stuck with our views (sometimes negative, often too positive and forgetting the bad bits). JJ is a great example. For a while he was probably the form centre in Europe, possibly beyond. But his performances did tail off for a whole bunch of reasons.

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

Let me start by saying I like Steward at 15.  We need a rock who can be counted on catching high balls, and despite one miscue that I recall, he is certainly the man for the job.  And he needs game time to plus up other parts of his game.

What he doesn't provide at current is an additional distributor option from 15 which is probably not a concern with Slade in the centres.  Also, despite good top end speed, his acceleration at this moment is like an old Fiat 124.  Which makes it harder to be a hard yards type in the midfield which given his size and strength could develop into being a real weapon.  Both can be worked on and hopefully develop.

He is not even close to my main concern about this team, as I suppose others feel the same.  He could be at 15 for England for a long time if the rest of his game comes together.  

I'm with you here Doc. I'm really enjoying Steward as a safe option but he's bloody slow. Putting him with Malins and Nowell isn't helping........I'm struggling to think of a slower back 3 in Int rugby.

lostinwales wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Aah yes the good old Ben Morgan rampage.

I still think he should have more caps...

He lost the battle vs Billy. His highlights real is pretty good though. He certainly could shift for a fatty.

Simmonds does definitely get around the pitch but then he's fast. That last Blamire try vs Australia (I think) was all about Simmonds running from deep.

I think for so many of these players, particularly the ones who have been out of the team for a long time, we often tend to get stuck with our views (sometimes negative, often too positive and forgetting the bad bits). JJ is a great example. For a while he was probably the form centre in Europe, possibly beyond. But his performances did tail off for a whole bunch of reasons.

Exactly. Terrific player but just couldn't quite match Billy at his peak. Morgan also struggled with injury of course and was always a player who took time to hit his straps when returning.

His running lines and turn of pace combined with his sheer bulk made him a great attacking weapon though.

Just as it was getting to be a ding dong battle Morgan started to pick up more injuries. In an alternate universe at that time Vunipola has broken his arm twice and Morgan is still rampaging.

I try not to get to deep into sliding doors thinking like that, 7.5

My mind immediately goes to players such as Tom Rees, Harry Ellis, JSD, Corbisiero, etc. Then I get sad.

Warburton is only 33 still!

Ha. You see the vid of Ellis vs Wales going around. God that lad was class.

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

Let me start by saying I like Steward at 15.  We need a rock who can be counted on catching high balls, and despite one miscue that I recall, he is certainly the man for the job.  And he needs game time to plus up other parts of his game.

What he doesn't provide at current is an additional distributor option from 15 which is probably not a concern with Slade in the centres.  Also, despite good top end speed, his acceleration at this moment is like an old Fiat 124.  Which makes it harder to be a hard yards type in the midfield which given his size and strength could develop into being a real weapon.  Both can be worked on and hopefully develop.

He is not even close to my main concern about this team, as I suppose others feel the same.  He could be at 15 for England for a long time if the rest of his game comes together.  

He played flyhalf at school and centres in the BUCS league. He's got the distribution skills, Tigers occasionally use them. England have chosen not to, could be the style of the new attack coach.

Steward is quicker than he looks with the long stride covering ground quickly. He's unlikely to develop notable acceleration. I'm still disappointed that Radwan hasn't been included for more caps. One of Malins and Nowell would have been good enough cover as the secondary 15 for a more attacking winger option.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Steward has the most carries and meters in the England sqaud this 6n hasnt he.

Clearly he is being used as a heavy duty carrier.

Standard for a running FB. It really does not mean he's been used as a heavy duty carrier

It also doesnt mean hes not. But clearly hes 6'5 and must be around 17st, so id imagine he's probably being used in part as a heavy carrier in the mix not just  out in the wings....

Oh I agree that he's got the size and power for it, as seen in the Autumn games, it is just that FB's tend to make 'easy' yards when running back kicks. In games with a lot of kicking you tend to see the FB and sometimes one of the wings with most meters run, just like in many games you tend to see the no.8 with the most carries.

Let me start by saying I like Steward at 15.  We need a rock who can be counted on catching high balls, and despite one miscue that I recall, he is certainly the man for the job.  And he needs game time to plus up other parts of his game.

What he doesn't provide at current is an additional distributor option from 15 which is probably not a concern with Slade in the centres.  Also, despite good top end speed, his acceleration at this moment is like an old Fiat 124.  Which makes it harder to be a hard yards type in the midfield which given his size and strength could develop into being a real weapon.  Both can be worked on and hopefully develop.

He is not even close to my main concern about this team, as I suppose others feel the same.  He could be at 15 for England for a long time if the rest of his game comes together.  

I'm with you here Doc. I'm really enjoying Steward as a safe option but he's bloody slow. Putting him with Malins and Nowell isn't helping........I'm struggling to think of a slower back 3 in Int rugby.

Thanks, great minds, as they say.

At this point I am really not getting Malins at all. Increasingly he is looking like a good club pro. If this is a developmental 6 Nations (a concept I don't like and, frankly should have been last year if at all), then where is Radwan? Who knows how he would go? Being about 2 foot tall probably not great at fielding kicks in heavy traffic, but he offers a real attacking point of difference which is not in the team today.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. You see the vid of Ellis vs Wales going around. God that lad was class.

Yep, a fantastic all round game and lightning pace. The real deal. That one still smarts as his first knee injury wasn't "a rugby incident" but a thuggish stamp that eventually ended Harry's career.

The ball to Robinson, thrown at full pace, then Robinson's memorable finish that somehow ended up being almost a crash ball collision in the corner with Billy Wizz crashing over made it a very memorable try.

I was so happy for Harry to fleetingly get fit for the 2009 Lions tour and get a test cap. An achievement a player of his class deserved.

king_carlos wrote:I try not to get to deep into sliding doors thinking like that, 7.5

My mind immediately goes to players such as Tom Rees, Harry Ellis, JSD, Corbisiero, etc. Then I get sad.

Warburton is only 33 still!

That Tom Wood is still playing always befuddles me (also Chris Ashton!) both players who promised a lot young but England moved on from a long time ago, albeit maybe not as along ago as it feels.

Gooseberry wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I try not to get to deep into sliding doors thinking like that, 7.5

My mind immediately goes to players such as Tom Rees, Harry Ellis, JSD, Corbisiero, etc. Then I get sad.

Warburton is only 33 still!

That Tom Wood is still playing always befuddles me (also Chris Ashton!) both players who promised a lot young but England moved on from a long time ago, albeit maybe not as along ago as it feels.

At one point Tom Wood was the Premiership Player of the Year. Seems like ages ago. He still can bring it quite well for Saints at times. I'm happy he is still with the club as a positive contributor, not just a body making up the numbers.

Lawes is one who amazes me with his longevity. His earliest caps as a lock came in sides with Simon Shaw also in the second row.

Two second rows as teammates who have spanned the 1997 Lions tour to SA through to the 2021 Lions tour to SA.

Obviously those miles on the clock are causing Lawes some injury issues now and moving to flanker has helped his longevity but the way he's adapted his game to stay so effective over time is remarkable.

king_carlos wrote:Lawes is one who amazes me with his longevity. His earliest caps as a lock came in sides with Simon Shaw also in the second row.

Two second rows as teammates who have spanned the 1997 Lions tour to SA through to the 2021 Lions tour to SA.

Obviously those miles on the clock are causing Lawes some injury issues now and moving to flanker has helped his longevity but the way he's adapted his game to stay so effective over time is remarkable.

An interesting thing about Lawes is that he is one of the few of the more experienced Saints whose game benefitted from having Chris Boyd as coach with his up tempo offloading style. The improvement is easy to see and he is now one of the best ball handling forwards in the England squad. He has also toned down the big hits to lengthen his own career.

Not long now. with England only having to replace Manu before the game.

Have Wales had to make any changes to their team since the squad announcement came out?

Just read who the officials are for today. Good lord, it’s almost a full house of incompetence.

Think Adamson is decent personally. Like the way he goes about things.

Good luck everyone. Enjoy the game. I’m off to the pub

Daly starts at 13. Marchant on the bench.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Daly starts at 13. Marchant on the bench.

No real surprise there. Watching the Scotland-France match, and looking at the England midfield......

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Daly starts at 13. Marchant on the bench.

No real surprise there.  Watching the Scotland-France match, and looking at the England midfield......

Am I stupid to be quite confident while watching France? Don't get me wrong I want Daly no where near the midfield when we play them bit I think England could go on a bit of a run.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Daly starts at 13. Marchant on the bench.

No real surprise there.  Watching the Scotland-France match, and looking at the England midfield......

Am I stupid to be quite confident while watching France? Don't get me wrong I want Daly no where near the midfield when we play them bit I think England could go on a bit of a run.

To me, France have become a fantastic counter-attacking team. Taking any error and ramming it home. If England can keep possession (I think William Webb Ellis started talking about this a long time ago) then England can match them. But I am not sure about this bunch. With ball in hand, if England don't try and force it, England should be OK. But not optimistic on that point. What do you think?

Let me tell you after the Wales game!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Let me tell you after the Wales game!

Great to see Ben youngs mentoring Randall there on how to delay a pass

You're right. Let's get Youngs out of the squad altogether ASAP.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're right. Let's get Youngs out of the squad altogether ASAP.

Hey the dog awful box kick actually panned out OK

Yup 2 awful ones. Leading to another pen for us.

Fantastic early intensity from Englandshire.

Francis doesn't want to scrum does he.