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England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 24 Aug 2023, 6:58 am

First topic message reminder :

Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 8:07 am

Despite a good defensive performance Argentina really should have caused us more problems so I have little doubt Japan will cut us a few times.

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 8:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Despite a good defensive performance Argentina really should have caused us more problems so I have little doubt Japan will cut us a few times.

Don't worry, your boys Malins and Youngs be on the case and Borthwick has a special plan.

You still a massive supporter of them I hope?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 8:56 am

Nah I've dropped the mickey take support.

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah I've dropped the mickey take support.

How do we know this isn't a mickey taking reply and you REALLY do support current team and system?

I say you do. Those Max Malins posters on your bedroom wall give it away slightly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:18 am

I suppose that's true. Until you see them play and then there's no doubt that they're the ones with pics of Borthwick, Tindall and a little person in a bar.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose that's true. Until you see them play and then there's no doubt that they're the ones with pics of Borthwick, Tindall and a little person in a bar.

To be fair if the team picked is the one hinted at in the Telegraph I'll take that.

The game Vs Argentina was far from perfect but our defence absolutely battered them. We matched them in the set piece and the kicking game gave us control. There were some rare glimpses of attacking play that desperately need to be built upon. I don't look at the side and wonder what a certain player is doing there ahead of another. Billy is very lucky but our depth at 8 isn't great so this is probably his last hurrah. Just need Ford to have another blinder and Smith to show his class off the bench so that there's no way back in for Farrell.

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:28 am

Farrell be back in side for Chile, no question. Guaranteed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose that's true. Until you see them play and then there's no doubt that they're the ones with pics of Borthwick, Tindall and a little person in a bar.

To be fair if the team picked is the one hinted at in the Telegraph I'll take that.

The game Vs Argentina was far from perfect but our defence absolutely battered them. We matched them in the set piece and the kicking game gave us control. There were some rare glimpses of attacking play that desperately need to be built upon. I don't look at the side and wonder what a certain player is doing there ahead of another. Billy is very lucky but our depth at 8 isn't great so this is probably his last hurrah. Just need Ford to have another blinder and Smith to show his class off the bench so that there's no way back in for Farrell.

No I get why the players are being picked. We're playing ABC rugby and the ones there are fine doing it. I don't even think Billy is lucky, suits the system.

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:42 am

According to a lot on BBC HYSs, it's more like ABE rugby...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:00 am

The normal lot plus those who like rugby.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 15 Sep 2023, 5:22 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66818827

Ludlam at 8 with Earl at 7. But Youngs on the bench. *sigh* And Billy on bench too.

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 5:45 pm

I'd have kept Earl at 8 but anyway.

No real surprise to see Billy back as will Farrell be for Chile.

Arundell injured still or just surplus to requirements.

Steward still at 15. No doubt Smith goes there 2nd half.

As you were.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 5:54 pm

As you were but the Argentina game showed the base of something to build on. Continue and try to improve in every area, including putting a bit more attack in.

I'd like to see Theo Dan get a good amount of gametime to see what he's really got at this level.

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 5:56 pm

Could be ideal game for Dan, scrum should be fine against Japan and he is so dynamic in loose.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 6:19 pm

Haven't seen a huge amount of Dan so interested to see him go.

A hooker of 5'11 and 15stone 10is not a big guy...so we need to see of his dynamism makes up for it. Tom Youngs was brought in for the same thing....and wasn't fondly remembered at this level....

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 15 Sep 2023, 6:35 pm

So Steward, Jamie George, Maro Itoje, get starts again. Better hope they are not ground down to uselessness by the knock-outs.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 6:42 pm

Doc

He's in a no win situation. Thw teams been woeful. He's trying to build some familiarity....at the same time as balancing getting through the group.

The last game hopefully showed the roots of the players finally beginning to click with the tactics...

Thanks to Eddie Jones we have back up players with so little experience SB is in a tough position.

So what should he do...?

I suspect we'll see changes early in the fame if we are ahead by a bit...especially at hooker where we HAVE to see what Dan can offer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:10 pm

I'd like to keep the same team now for the run of Borthwicks games. No point in people being branded by association.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd like to keep the same team now for the run of Borthwicks games. No point in people being branded by association.

And what if they get better as the tournament goes and give us an excellent base to build on from the 6n onwards?

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:41 pm

Geordie wrote:Doc

He's in a no win situation. Thw teams been woeful. He's trying to build some familiarity....at the same time as balancing getting through the group.

The last game hopefully showed the roots of the players finally beginning to click with the tactics...

Thanks to Eddie Jones we have back up players with so little experience SB is in a tough position.  

So what should he do...?

I suspect we'll see changes early in the fame if we are ahead by a bit...especially at hooker where we HAVE to see what Dan can offer.
Yeah, he is certainly in a pickle. It is a tough balance to worry about wearing the players down whilst trying to build a team. And build it out of?????

But, I agree, we don't want to find out about Dan only when George is forced out early on in a knock-out match.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:42 pm

God they should get better. Surely. Think we'll do well in the 6ns. Maybe a 4th place finish. Woop woop. The only way the basics will get built upon is when Borthwick is sacked or resigns. There's no ambition other than by the numbers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:45 pm

So far so bad. He's going to get to the par of semis and then people will point and say see its going oh so well. Just now about how much people will accept before they have had enough. It's all the players fault now. That thought may last a while.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:47 pm

In a way but not exactly it reminds me of Southgate. People are still saying that he got us to a first final etc etc while others are increasingly saying he's actually adding sod all to the group and actually detracting due to his negative tactics.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:God they should get better. Surely. Think we'll do well in the 6ns. Maybe a 4th place finish. Woop woop. The only way the basics will get built upon is when Borthwick is sacked or resigns. There's no ambition other than by the numbers.

Where do you find his replacement from?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 7:54 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:God they should get better. Surely. Think we'll do well in the 6ns. Maybe a 4th place finish. Woop woop. The only way the basics will get built upon is when Borthwick is sacked or resigns. There's no ambition other than by the numbers.

Where do you find his replacement from?

Honestly anywhere at the moment. Invite Andy Robinson back.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 8:22 pm

7.5...seriously your a clown. Peed off because your favorite Robertson didn't want the job.

It's nothing like Southgate.  Rugby is built on its basics and then you develop and build a formidable unit. Most teams at this world Cup have had a four year or more time period of doing that.

We've had a awful team for numerous years now scrapping wins.

SB knows the basics need put right then build on that. He's trying to do rhat...and we saw the shoots v Argentina.  I expect we'll see more as the tournament goes on.

We know he can build a brutal team....Thw only thing we don't know about SB is how he develops the side further once he's got the basics right...as he was only with Tigers for so long.  

That will be the key aspect.
.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 8:50 pm

Geordie wrote:7.5...seriously your a clown. Peed off because your favorite Robertson didn't want the job.

It's nothing like Southgate.  Rugby is built on its basics and then you develop and build a formidable unit. Most teams at this world Cup have had a four year or more time period of doing that.

We've had a awful team for numerous years now scrapping wins.

SB knows the basics need put right then build on that. He's trying to do rhat...and we saw the shoots v Argentina.  I expect we'll see more as the tournament goes on.

We know he can build a brutal team....Thw only thing we don't know about SB is how he develops the side further once he's got the basics right...as he was only with Tigers for so long.  

That will be the key aspect.
.

Nice of you to say Geordie. At least get you're spelling correct. Won't slag you off personally as that's against the rules of the site.weve had a one off win against a side who bottled it fair enough. And we're on our way to the finish where I predicted a fair while ago.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 8:55 pm

Feel free to slag me off....you've been behaving like a child for a few weeks now.

Back to SB. A one off result...or rhat England put so much pressure on them that they weren't allowed to play well..rather than bottle it. We shall see the next few games...especially against Samoa.

Be serious...who would you replace him with immediately post World Cup??

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:00 pm

Nah I don't really like insulting people leave that to others. Indeed a 1 off result based on what we've seen so far. I think the next real test will be the QF but yes we have stooped so low with Borthwick that Samoa is another test.

Seriously though post the WC anyone really. I don't think he's good enough but worse he's not even ambitious in what he's trying to do. I'd be going for McCall again. I'd go for for O'Gara now and I'd ruled him out post Jones due to his disciplinary record. After Sb tho well need a lift.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:00 pm

doctor_grey wrote:So Steward, Jamie George, Maro Itoje, get starts again.  Better hope they are not ground down to uselessness by the knock-outs.  
The group stages being spread over 5 weekends instead of 4, subsequently fewer midweek turnarounds (none for England this time) and 33-man squads instead of 31-man should make a significant difference to wear on players.

That is muddied somewhat by the France game being cancelled last time due to the typhoon. So they ended up with an unplanned bye week before the QFs. England's tournament still started with a Sunday to Thursday turnaround for the first two rounds though. Plus 31-man squads meant you couldn't really rotate specialists.

Whereas this time out England could rotate significantly for Chile and still have a week off before Samoa. So those three you named could feasibly have a fortnight break in the middle of the tournament.

I'd expect the pack in particular to rotate heavily whilst starting players that need minutes - Billy and Dan spring to mind, probably Stuart too. Genge, George, Sinckler, Itoje and Lawes could all realistically rotate out though.

The backs is more up for debate. I'd certainly expect Malins or Arundell at fullback. If the plan is to look at 10.Ford 12.Farrell then it would make sense to me for Mitchell and Marchant to remain either side of them to get minutes as a unit.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah I don't really like insulting people leave that to others. Indeed a 1 off result based on what we've seen so far. I think the next real test will be the QF but yes we have stooped so low with Borthwick that Samoa is another test.

Seriously though post the WC anyone really. I don't think he's good enough but worse he's not even ambitious in what he's trying to do. I'd be going for McCall again. I'd go for for O'Gara now and I'd ruled him out post Jones due to his disciplinary record. After Sb tho well need a lift.

O'Gara and McCall, well its a relief your notnin charge at the RU....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:08 pm

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah I don't really like insulting people leave that to others. Indeed a 1 off result based on what we've seen so far. I think the next real test will be the QF but yes we have stooped so low with Borthwick that Samoa is another test.

Seriously though post the WC anyone really. I don't think he's good enough but worse he's not even ambitious in what he's trying to do. I'd be going for McCall again. I'd go for for O'Gara now and I'd ruled him out post Jones due to his disciplinary record. After Sb tho well need a lift.

O'Gara and McCall, well its a relief your notnin charge at the RU....

RFU you mean? Yeah would be horrifying seeing those guys in charge when we can have a win ratio and such exciting rugby we're witnessing at the moment.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:14 pm

McCall was my first choice but I highly doubt he'd have been interested. He was on leave from the Sarries job when the England one came up. Borthwick was my second choice of the realistic options.

ROG was clearly waiting on the Ireland job and has basically said as such now. Faz Snr's contract expires in 2025 - coinciding with the Lions funnily enough. I'd put good money on ROG being in charge come the 2025 AIs.

Razor was never remotely interested. Everyone using a bit of common sense could see he was waiting on the NZ job. There was about as much chance of that happening as tempting Wayne Smith out of semi-retirement to coach England.

7.5 did say that Borthwick would the wrong choice and a failure even if England won the RWC. It's safe to say we aren't going to get balanced discussion from that starting point.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:15 pm

RFU yes...well done you got your insult in, in your own unique way...

Purely theoretical that they would win. You have no evidence at all....they would have to sort out the mess aswell.


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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:17 pm

king_carlos wrote:

7.5 did say that Borthwick would the wrong choice and a failure even if England won the RWC. It's safe to say we aren't going to get balanced discussion from that starting point.

Your right KC...I'll stop now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:19 pm

Woah king. I said that and gave the reasons. And it was balanced and explained. As I said at the time par was the semi and it should still be. And as I said you can get to the semi and strange things happen, a red card or a team bottling it...and we've seen in the first match that Argentina bent in the pressure. You may well be right that it was merely Borthwick that is interested. Others may be right that he's now simply the best we could possibly get. Bit depressing but shouldn't stop the rfu from trying. Granted and I'll hold my hands up when I said Jones time had run its course I thought we'd go put and get another top guy. If I'd known we'd just go to Borthwick I'd have been screaming from the roof tops for Jones to stay. If he had stayed I would be expecting him to get to the final again.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:21 pm

This is why i went a bit satire for a few weeks. Easier just agreeing with the Borthwick love in than to point out the emperor ain't wearing a stitch.

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Post by Geordie Fri 15 Sep 2023, 9:36 pm

thumbsup

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Post by mountain man Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:07 pm

RFU won't be sacking Borthwick, certainly not in medium term anyway. Just cannot see it so bit pointless endlessly going on about it.
Am I thrilled so far by rugby Eng producing? Far from it but it's where we're at.
Getting any semblance of positive play been so tough as Eng been losing. Bad performance has led to bad losses.
However, the win against Arg will hopefully be a spark. Don't think we'll see particularly expansive any time soon but if England can win pool.games then build from there.

I'll take some dour wins for now. If Eng go back to losing AND playing terribly then I'll be first to complain.
I would like to see a bit more adventure in backs both in play and who is picked but I'm not particularly hopeful.

Anyway, looking forward to Sunday matches.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:23 pm

For what it's worth

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Ford, Mitchell; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes (capt), Earl, Ludlam.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Stuart, Martin, Vunipola, Youngs, Smith, Lawrence.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:24 pm

New props and Ludlam in for Curry. Everything else the same in the 15. Youngs and Vunipola on the bench

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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:This is why i went a bit satire for a few weeks. Easier just agreeing with the Borthwick love in than to point out the emperor ain't wearing a stitch.
Your prolonged tantrum is all built on deciding that they wont ever try to expand the game plan though. Which you don't know. In 2021/22 Tigers did develop their game plan. In the regular season they scored 88 tries with 11 TBPs. The Prem is poor now but for comparison Sarries, coached by McCall, scored 93 tries with 12 TBPs in the same season. Tigers did that whilst conceding 8 fewer tries than Sarries, with by a distance the lowest points and tries conceded in the league. Saints for instance topped the tries scored with 99 but conceded 30 more tries than Tigers.

Faz Snr was a defence coach by trade and many doubted he was a good choice to take over from Schmidt due to fears he wouldn't develop the game plan. Ireland's attack is now one of the most cohesive structures we've seen with a playbook of brilliant multi phase moves that have broken down excellent defences.

Galthie took 3 attempts at the Six Nations to win a title with a generational talent group. It takes time. That's not new to Borthwick. Yet you keep insisting that anything but an instant turnaround is abject failure. Which is a farcical lack of balance in discussion.

It's not a love in for posters being able to point out some things that have improved (scrum, lineout, defence and on the Argentina game fitness by remarkable margin) whilst criticising things that haven't (largely the attack with the squandered overlap on Saturday being embarrassing but also kicking being inconsistent). That's balance. No one has suggested everything is solved from one win. Merely that the win showed some things have improved.

Yet you've taken a black and white stance that regardless of what is achieved the coach is a complete a failure and will remain a failure into the future regardless of results because 7.5 has already decided what the future will be too. Which amusingly feels so ridiculous that it's almost more satirical than the months spent trying to post satire.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:For what it's worth

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Ford, Mitchell; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes (capt), Earl, Ludlam.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Stuart, Martin, Vunipola, Youngs, Smith, Lawrence.
Mr Bounce linked it above but things got diverted swiftly.

I'd have started Vunipola myself just to see if he looks sharper than his recent efforts but I can't lament those three back rows starting after their performances in R1. Ludlam is rapidly growing into one of my favourite players. He just bashes folk in contact.

I'm interested to see how the scrum goes with Marler and Sinckler starting together. The scrum had a 96% retention in the 6N with Sinckler at TH whilst Marler is a really strong scrummager these days. I quite like the potential impact of Genge off the bench as well.

I'm glad to see the backline stay together for another game, hopefully they can build some more cohesion.

Marchant has really grown through the warmups and R1. His defense has been hugely improved in a tough position. His aerial work in kick chase is terrific. Annoyingly, he threw that pass behind Daly on the overlap but usually his work in those areas for Quins is very strong. It's a shame as that's the only notable blot I can think of on his recent report. If he can link with the outside backs as he's shown at club then a problem position will be looking a lot stronger suddenly.

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Post by Yoda Fri 15 Sep 2023, 10:44 pm

Purely hypothetical but if England show up well and get to another final or win the damn thing, would you still get rid of Borthwick 7.5? I'm interested as I wasn't exactly buzzing with the appointment and can't fathom if he's a loon or a man with a long term plan.


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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 16 Sep 2023, 1:55 am

Squidge thinks England had practised some drop goal drills, with a plan to use them in a knock-out QF. The state of the Argentina game meant Ford pulled the trigger to use them in that match.


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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Sep 2023, 7:10 am

Is there anything in it that he's playing a rock solid prop with an Explosive one? As he did v Argentina also?


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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Sep 2023, 7:24 am

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:This is why i went a bit satire for a few weeks. Easier just agreeing with the Borthwick love in than to point out the emperor ain't wearing a stitch.
Your prolonged tantrum is all built on deciding that they wont ever try to expand the game plan though. Which you don't know. In 2021/22 Tigers did develop their game plan. In the regular season they scored 88 tries with 11 TBPs. The Prem is poor now but for comparison Sarries, coached by McCall, scored 93 tries with 12 TBPs in the same season. Tigers did that whilst conceding 8 fewer tries than Sarries, with by a distance the lowest points and tries conceded in the league. Saints for instance topped the tries scored with 99 but conceded 30 more tries than Tigers.

Faz Snr was a defence coach by trade and many doubted he was a good choice to take over from Schmidt due to fears he wouldn't develop the game plan. Ireland's attack is now one of the most cohesive structures we've seen with a playbook of brilliant multi phase moves that have broken down excellent defences.

Galthie took 3 attempts at the Six Nations to win a title with a generational talent group. It takes time. That's not new to Borthwick. Yet you keep insisting that anything but an instant turnaround is abject failure. Which is a farcical lack of balance in discussion.

It's not a love in for posters being able to point out some things that have improved (scrum, lineout, defence and on the Argentina game fitness by remarkable margin) whilst criticising things that haven't (largely the attack with the squandered overlap on Saturday being embarrassing but also kicking being inconsistent). That's balance. No one has suggested everything is solved from one win. Merely that the win showed some things have improved.

Yet you've taken a black and white stance that regardless of what is achieved the coach is a complete a failure and will remain a failure into the future regardless of results because 7.5 has already decided what the future will be too. Which amusingly feels so ridiculous that it's almost more satirical than the months spent trying to post satire.

Boring rugby was a part. The other was that it wastes the talent we have as its completely unambitious. The other is, leading from point 2, it will be unsuccessful.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Sep 2023, 7:26 am

Yoda wrote:Purely hypothetical but if England show up well and get to another final or win the damn thing, would you still get rid of Borthwick 7.5? I'm interested as I wasn't exactly buzzing with the appointment and can't fathom if he's a loon or a man with a long term plan.


I'd get rid ASAP. That was King's question, re winning the WC. We could conceivably fluke a win given the draw, its really not beyond the realms of possibility. But if we had Scotlands draw we'd be going home in the group. I feel its like Pivac in that respect when he won the 6 nations....against a series of 14 men.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Sep 2023, 7:58 am

Borthwicks had a non too subtle dig that England got a fair amount of comment from WR on Farrell before highlighting the inconsistent approach to high tackles now. We don't have a discipline problem though as we conceded 7 pens against Argentina. Anyone having a punt on another high tackle vs Japan?

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Post by mountain man Sat 16 Sep 2023, 8:21 am

Thought it was 8 pens against Arg but anyway still excellent in adversity.

The high tackle issue is a problem, and for all teams. Games played at such a pace that incidents will happen and shoulders to heads will continue unless everyone only tackles below waist. Trying to stop off loads in tackles and making dominant hits is where problem lies.

I'd be amazed if no more reds this weekend.

As for RFU keeping Borthwick should England win RWC, I really don't even think that's a question they'll need to answer.

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