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England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 7:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

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Post by Geordie Tue 30 Jan 2024, 1:39 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I agree with what others have written, you'd assume that Fin Smith will start now.  He is about the only English flyhalf available that has is playing regularly, uninjured and in form.  

Smith seems preferred to Furbank for Northampton, so I can't see that being reversed at international level, maybe if Furbank was a seasoned international campaigner but that isn't the reality.

I think Furbank is probably much closer to the 15 shirt, but I think Steward will get picked because of the relatively inexperience backline that is going to be fielded.


But Furbank is a FB anyway marra who can cover at 10 if required....it was Jones who seemed to wanted him at 10.

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Post by mountain man Tue 30 Jan 2024, 3:21 pm

Update due later on Marcus Smith, hopefully be fit to play.

I guess one thing is if he's not then that guarantees Fin Smith on bench at least(he may well have been anyway) so he'll surely get on at some time on Saturday.

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Post by hugehandoff Tue 30 Jan 2024, 4:32 pm

If Marcus is ruled out it makes a lot of sense to go Northampton heavy in the backs. Maybe just Slade and Feyi-Woboso being the exceptions. Then Care, Ford, Steward on the bench. And if it goes well then give them all another run against Wales

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Post by mountain man Tue 30 Jan 2024, 5:05 pm

Confirmed that Marcus is out with calf injury. Bugger.

So, just question who now starts, Ford or Fin.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 30 Jan 2024, 5:39 pm

mountain man wrote:Confirmed that Marcus is out with calf injury. Bugger.

So, just question who now starts, Ford or Fin.

At least it's Italy up first... Any word on how long he is out for? I would be inclined to start with Fin and bring Ford in if we need to close out the game.
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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 30 Jan 2024, 11:16 pm

Poorfour wrote:
mountain man wrote:Confirmed that Marcus is out with calf injury. Bugger.

So, just question who now starts, Ford or Fin.

At least it's Italy up first... Any word on how long he is out for? I would be inclined to start with Fin and bring Ford in if we need to close out the game.

Telegraph says if he has done his calf, then Marcus Smith could miss the whole tournament.

Paper also says Alex Mitchell has an "infected leg wound" which mean he hasn't trained this week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 7:57 am

1 session left tomorrow apparently for Mitchell to prove he's fit. Spencer is probably the better fit for the team anyway you'd think and is the form scrum half. Seen that if Mitchell doesn't make it there will only be 4 backs from the wc squad of 17 who are available for Italy.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:1 session left tomorrow apparently for Mitchell to prove he's fit. Spencer is probably the better fit for the team anyway you'd think and is the form scrum half. Seen that if Mitchell doesn't make it there will only be 4 backs from the wc squad of 17 who are available for Italy.

Somewhat debatable.
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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:33 am

Seen that if Mitchell doesn't make it there will only be 4 backs from the wc squad of 17 who are available for Italy.

That's an interesting stat. Well at least it's change which some of us wanted!

Be a big blow if Mitchell can't play as he would been ideal for Fin Smith and help him on first cap should he get it.

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:35 am

Times suggesting Ford and Furbank to start....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:42 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:1 session left tomorrow apparently for Mitchell to prove he's fit. Spencer is probably the better fit for the team anyway you'd think and is the form scrum half. Seen that if Mitchell doesn't make it there will only be 4 backs from the wc squad of 17 who are available for Italy.

Somewhat debatable.

Everything's debatable! He probably has rhe best box kick in the prem I'd say. Good range of passing. If you don't think he's the form 9 then he's certainly up there.

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:54 am

Geordie wrote:Times suggesting Ford and Furbank to start....

Absolutely no surprise if Borthwick starts Ford, whether he should is another matter but seems highly likely.
Furbank deserves it going on club form so he's 15 so it's who's on wings. I'm wondering if Borthwick puts in Steward, again not my choice on wing but again wouldn't surprise me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:57 am

Steward will start. Furbank deserves the entire 6Ns if Borthwick feels he's ready. He's got the skills but by his own admission he's crumbled under the pressure and mistakes previously. If and when he does make one will he get the backing though?

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:59 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:Times suggesting Ford and Furbank to start....

Absolutely no surprise if Borthwick starts Ford, whether he should is another matter but seems highly likely.
Furbank deserves it going on club form so he's 15 so it's who's on wings. I'm wondering if Borthwick puts in Steward, again not my choice on wing but again wouldn't surprise me.

I f Steward is on the wing...i will litterally scream!

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 31 Jan 2024, 9:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:1 session left tomorrow apparently for Mitchell to prove he's fit. Spencer is probably the better fit for the team anyway you'd think and is the form scrum half. Seen that if Mitchell doesn't make it there will only be 4 backs from the wc squad of 17 who are available for Italy.

Somewhat debatable.

Everything's debatable! He probably has rhe best box kick in the prem I'd say. Good range of passing. If you don't think he's the form 9 then he's certainly up there.

That I wouldn't disagree with.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 9:53 am

Fantastic news that Itoje has signed another deal with Saracens.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 31 Jan 2024, 12:51 pm

Interesting that the Torygraph haven't already got the team up. Usually they are a day early like clockwork. I'd guess they are waiting on Mitchell's fitness before finalising the 23.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Roots 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell/Spencer 10.Ford 11.Freeman 12.Dingwall 13.Slade 14.Daly 15.Steward

16.Dan 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Coles 20.Pearson 21.CCS 22.Care 23.F Smith

I think I'd go with that. The only area I'm really debating there is shifting Daly to 13 with Roebuck on the wing.

It would be a big blow if Mitchell doesn't make it. The improvements he made over the last 12 months were excellent. He went from a Care level defensive passenger to being a valuable member of England's back field setup and successfully competing cross field bombs against the Boks. His box kicking went from blowing hot and cold to executing one of the toughest strategies I've seen in the semi-final when England started targeting the 5m channel with kicks.

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Jan 2024, 1:00 pm

HHmmm

Id change
6 Roots for Pearson and remove him from bench

Bench - 5 / 3 split
Add Furbank.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 31 Jan 2024, 2:25 pm

I think Feyi-Waboso will be capped

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 2:42 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I hope Feyi-Waboso will be capped

Fixed that for ya.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 2:57 pm

Looks like the plan is to do a swap with Hassell-Collins if Gatland gets his way. Not immediately obvious how he qualifies for Wales but they've tended to be on top of those things (since granny gate anyway). Has to be picked for Portugal though surely.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 31 Jan 2024, 3:04 pm

Interesting if OHC is Wales qualified, wasn't aware of that. Itoje has a Welsh granny too but looks like he is committed to England for the rest of his playing career.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 31 Jan 2024, 3:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Looks like the plan is to do a swap with Hassell-Collins if Gatland gets his way. Not immediately obvious how he qualifies for Wales but they've tended to be on top of those things (since granny gate anyway). Has to be picked for Portugal though surely.

I thought he was throwing OHC out there as a salty comment aimed at IFW as an example of a winger that came straight into the first team only to be dropped and not called on again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 3:44 pm

Well there was that, Sam but there was also a report I want to say Charlie Morgan where there was a belief he would become available for Wales.

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Jan 2024, 3:54 pm

I dont think OHC will be picked for England so if hes available for Wales he may aswell try it .

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 3:59 pm

If OHC does end up going to Wales no problem for me, England have plenty better wings available. If they are picked.

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Jan 2024, 4:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:Interesting that the Torygraph haven't already got the team up. Usually they are a day early like clockwork. I'd guess they are waiting on Mitchell's fitness before finalising the 23.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Roots 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell/Spencer 10.Ford 11.Freeman 12.Dingwall 13.Slade 14.Daly 15.Steward

16.Dan 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Coles 20.Pearson 21.CCS 22.Care 23.F Smith

I think I'd go with that. The only area I'm really debating there is shifting Daly to 13 with Roebuck on the wing.

It would be a big blow if Mitchell doesn't make it. The improvements he made over the last 12 months were excellent. He went from a Care level defensive passenger to being a valuable member of England's back field setup and successfully competing cross field bombs against the Boks. His box kicking went from blowing hot and cold to executing one of the toughest strategies I've seen in the semi-final when England started targeting the 5m channel with kicks.

Well ive see your team hinted at now KC...with Care at 9 though....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:14 pm

mountain man wrote:If OHC does end up going to Wales no problem for me, England have plenty better wings available. If they are picked.

I'm intrigued to see if you write other wings off quickly this 6 nations if they end up being bystanders.

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:27 pm

So it's not acceptable to say player X is someone I wouldn't pick?

Oh OK.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:30 pm

mountain man wrote:So it's not acceptable to say player X is someone I wouldn't pick?

Oh OK.

Not at all what I said.

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:37 pm

Well it certainly appears that way. My opinion is OHC is not a player I'd pick for England so if he opts and qualifies for Wales then fine by me.

What exactly do you mean then? I'm intrigued to know.

BTW, don't bother with that end of a bell Finkelstein, he runs crying to mods to get any post even hinting at poking fun in a humerous way. He's obviously a Walter Mitty as you said and is utterly clueless. Fact he said he'd play Feyi-Waboso at 13 says it all. He's made many such daft suggestions in past. Literally gets his "knowledge" from BBC articles then regurgitates. Dont think he's ever watched a match.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:44 pm

mountain man wrote:Well it certainly appears that way. My opinion is OHC is not a player I'd pick for England so if he opts and qualifies for Wales then fine by me.

What exactly do you mean then? I'm intrigued to know.

That you made your judgment based off the 2 6 nations matches where he didn't get a pass despite going to look for the ball. If it happens again to say Feyi-Waboso
will they be written off as quickly?

I remember a few on here not you as you weren't on here o don't think,do the same to Lawrence.

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:50 pm

I base my judgements/opinion on more than England games though. I said prior to his first cap I didn't think OHC was anything special and still think that.
The fact he didn't do anything for England then reinforced that view albeit with caveat about lack of ball etc.


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Post by Yoda Wed 31 Jan 2024, 5:51 pm

From the telegraph.

Expected England team: F Steward; E Daly, H Slade, F Dingwall, T Freeman; G Ford, D Care; J Marler, J George, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, E Roots, S Underhill, B Earl

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Well it certainly appears that way. My opinion is OHC is not a player I'd pick for England so if he opts and qualifies for Wales then fine by me.

What exactly do you mean then? I'm intrigued to know.

That you made your judgment based off the 2 6 nations matches where he didn't get a pass despite going to look for the ball. If it happens again to say Feyi-Waboso
will they be written off as quickly?

I remember a few on here not you as you weren't on here o don't think,do the same to Lawrence.

OHC did struggle a bit but no wingers really thrived last 6N. A more experienced winger might have faired better but sometimes that's just how it goes.

OHC has had an injury and until the Quins game hadn't really shown much form since moving clubs. I'd not rule him out in the future as at 25 he should be coming into peak years but am not calling for him now.

Wales aren't struggling for wingers and capping one who's unlikely to opt to go and play in Wales make it all seem a bit pointless.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:11 pm

Yoda wrote:From the telegraph.

Expected England team: F Steward; E Daly, H Slade, F Dingwall, T Freeman; G Ford, D Care; J Marler, J George, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, E Roots, S Underhill, B Earl

A bit disappointing, hopefully the bench brings some redemption.

Daly, Care, Roots and Ford are extremely lucky to be in there.

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Post by mountain man Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:25 pm

I think Care is a sensible pick and he's still playing really well.
Agree on Daly and Ford. Can't give opinion on Roots as not seen enough.

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Post by hugehandoff Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:36 pm

The Telegraph is normally correct and if so this is very disappointing. SB is a very conservative person and I really fear that he will hold back England's development. This was a prime time to start F.Smith and Furbank. Everything else is fine, but going for Ford (a very fine player) and Steward against Italy is ultra conservative.

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Post by Yoda Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:44 pm

mountain man wrote:I think Care is a sensible pick and he's still playing really well.
Agree on Daly and Ford. Can't give opinion on Roots as not seen enough.

It's easy to see why ford and care there and Daly for that matter. It means we are taking the Italians seriously and having nearly 200 caps at half back gives stability. As the game opens up fin smith can come on and get the game time needed to bed in. Roots looks like a bruiser and not flashy. Every time I see him play he does the dirty grunt work. He carries hard and direct which will give us a bit of mongrel in the pack. I suspect Italy will bring passion and energy into the match so having roots and Underhill chopping them up and smashing them backwards will hopefully stop ball carriers dead and allow us to get on the front foot.

I hope Pearson gets a crack because he is also quality and carries the ball like a big centre. The bench is sometimes more important to get spot on as the game unfolds. I suspect a 5-3 split.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:55 pm

Given the losses in the backline it was always likely that Daly was going to play. And it is not easy to shift Steward either.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:56 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Well it certainly appears that way. My opinion is OHC is not a player I'd pick for England so if he opts and qualifies for Wales then fine by me.

What exactly do you mean then? I'm intrigued to know.

That you made your judgment based off the 2 6 nations matches where he didn't get a pass despite going to look for the ball. If it happens again to say Feyi-Waboso
will they be written off as quickly?

I remember a few on here not you as you weren't on here o don't think,do the same to Lawrence.

OHC did struggle a bit but no wingers really thrived last 6N. A more experienced winger might have faired better but sometimes that's just how it goes.

OHC has had an injury and until the Quins game hadn't really shown much form since moving clubs. I'd not rule him out in the future as at 25 he should be coming into peak years but am not calling for him now.

Wales aren't struggling for wingers and capping one who's unlikely to opt to go and play in Wales make it all seem a bit pointless.

The wingers have consistently not got the ball tbf. This is where I think Gatlands comments are pretty fair. When you've got people like hc and Arundell consistently trudging off looking glum it tells a story.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:57 pm

Is this a result of Mitchell's infected leg, or because he prefers a 9 that played second fiddle throughout the RWC?

If the former, who is on the bench? I have not seen the Telegraph revelation.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 6:58 pm

I quite like Roots. Not sure the combo of the back row quite works for me overall though.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 31 Jan 2024, 7:15 pm

I think that back row has a decent mix of power and grunt (Roots), tackling and turnovers (Underhill) and Turnovers, speed and skill (Earl), I never like it when players exit one country and then get picked for another, (such as when Brad Shields was targeted by Jones) but from a "legal" point of view he's perfectly eligible. He could be the answer to the gritty, gnarly 6 that isn't a converted lock that we've been after for a while.

Courtney was great at 6, but lacked the pace for me. Hope that Roots has a great game - he could be decent for us.

I'd like to see Pearson, Fin and Manny F-B get selected on the bench.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 31 Jan 2024, 7:46 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Is this a result of Mitchell's infected leg, or because he prefers a 9 that played second fiddle throughout the RWC?

If the former, who is on the bench? I have not seen the Telegraph revelation.

I presume that Mitchell isn't fit if Care is starting. Care looked like his best days were behind him at international level in the summer and prior 6N. I'd prefer to give Spencer one last crack. You'd imagine neither have a particularly long international career left and had JvP not had a set back and managed a few games before the England camp he'd have come in.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 31 Jan 2024, 7:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Well it certainly appears that way. My opinion is OHC is not a player I'd pick for England so if he opts and qualifies for Wales then fine by me.

What exactly do you mean then? I'm intrigued to know.

That you made your judgment based off the 2 6 nations matches where he didn't get a pass despite going to look for the ball. If it happens again to say Feyi-Waboso
will they be written off as quickly?

I remember a few on here not you as you weren't on here o don't think,do the same to Lawrence.

OHC did struggle a bit but no wingers really thrived last 6N. A more experienced winger might have faired better but sometimes that's just how it goes.

OHC has had an injury and until the Quins game hadn't really shown much form since moving clubs. I'd not rule him out in the future as at 25 he should be coming into peak years but am not calling for him now.

Wales aren't struggling for wingers and capping one who's unlikely to opt to go and play in Wales make it all seem a bit pointless.

The wingers have consistently not got the ball tbf. This is where I think Gatlands comments are pretty fair. When you've got people like hc and Arundell consistently trudging off looking glum it tells a story.

Gatland's a wind up merchant at the best of times and I thought his comments were a bit sour. Certainly true England haven't made the best use of their wingers though. I'm hoping Freeman gets the sort of role Nadolo got at Tigers where he was free to come off his wing and look for work. The other winger then would be charged with keeping their width which if he's paired with Daly at least keeps Daly out of the line aimlessly grubbering through.

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Post by Yoda Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:04 pm

Daly on form is a fine player, can kick and surprising over the years has set up bucket loads of tries in the prem. He's a British and Irish lion with bags of experience and suits brothers game plan perfectly. I would have been surprised if he wasn't starting. The back row looks mobile and built to dominate the breakdown, which we know is vital. I suspect we will boot the leather off the ball get field position and trundle in a few tries. We might see some decent phase play when we get into the Italian 22 and try to score some decent tries but only if we are two scores up.

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Jan 2024, 8:17 pm

Overall I'm not unhappy...if this is the team announced tomorrow.

Covers most requirements...strong scrummagers, lineout, an aggressive back row with carriers, jacklers, tacklers....

The backs have power, speed, playmakers, generals...

Wont be hugely pretty but itll be effective, physical and hopefully we'll have a semblance of attack coming through...

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Post by king_carlos Wed 31 Jan 2024, 9:38 pm

Yoda wrote:From the telegraph.

Expected England team: F Steward; E Daly, H Slade, F Dingwall, T Freeman; G Ford, D Care; J Marler, J George, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, E Roots, S Underhill, B Earl
Very close to what I'd have picked as posted earlier. The changes being Care for Spencer, Marler and Stuart for Genge and Cole.

SH with Mitchell, JvP and Quirke injured is a bit of a meh one to me. I think Care still has the same issues he's always had. His kicking lacking distance, game management sometimes going missing and he offers the defensive output of a narcoleptic koala. He is very good in the opposition 22 though. I'm sceptical of Spencer as well though. He was good whilst rotating with Wigglesworth at Sarries behind a dominant pack. Moved to Bath, looked very OK in a bad team, now looks a bit ok-er in a better team. He doesn't strike me as an international 9. Neither does Randall though. Whilst Warr is rumoured to be going Scots. As said it's a meh one with the best 3 talents at 9 by a distance unavailable. Care and Spencer are probably the best of the meh options left.

Genge and Marler is a tight call. I like them either way round to be honest. I'd maybe narrowly prefer Marler to be on when Theo Dan is. Not much in that though.

I think Will Stuart has talent but he needs to show some consistency. Again, I'm not opposed to him getting a chance given Coley is about 50.

Slade and Daly always seemed likely to play. Particularly with Marchant unavailable. The backline would've had a dearth of kicking and distributing options without them. In suggested back lines with neither playing, Steward was usually the best kicker and distributor outside the halfbacks. Which isn't ideal in the modern game. The other option is Furbank at 15. Which we've already seen end about as well as Dombrandt as an international back row.

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Post by mountain man Thu 01 Feb 2024, 8:13 am

Yoda wrote:From the telegraph.

Expected England team: F Steward; E Daly, H Slade, F Dingwall, T Freeman; G Ford, D Care; J Marler, J George, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, E Roots, S Underhill, B Earl

Have they named expected bench? I was wondering if Feyi-Waboso makes 23 after all the fuss about him choosing England not Wales.

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