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Wales vs Scotland | The Doddie Weir Cup

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Post by bsando Sun 28 Jan 2024, 6:49 am

First topic message reminder :

The Wales vs Scotland
The Doddie Weir Cup

Round One
3rd of February, 2024
Millenium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick Off 16:45

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (NZ)
ARs: James Doleman (NZ) & Angus Mabey (NZ)
TMO: Brendon Pickerill (NZ)

TV Coverage on BBC 1
SC4
RTÉ (ROI)

Teams

Wales

Winnett; Dyer, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams; Costelow, G Davies; Domachowski, Elias, Brown, D Jenkins (capt), Beard, Botham, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements:Dee, Mathias, Assiratti, Teddy Williams, Mann, Tomos Williams, I Lloyd, Grady.

Scotland

Rowe, Steyn, Jones, Tuipulotu, Van der Merwe, Russell, White; Schoeman, Turner, Z Fagerson, R Gray, Cummings, Crosbie, Ritchie, M Fagerson.

Replacements: Ashman, Hepburn, Millar-Mills, Skinner, Dempsey, Horne, Healy, Redpath.


Last edited by bsando on Thu 01 Feb 2024, 3:10 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by monty junior Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:47 pm

Strange after all this time to win and feel almost disappointed, we clearly haven't moved forward since the world cup and that second half was a horror show. Even not scoring at the end is such a miss. We really need someone like darge who can jackal, we offer not threat on the floor and haven't really since watson was in his prime.

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Post by bsando Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:52 pm

Toonie out. 

How can Scotland get any better if they’re going to melt like that despite being 0-27 up? The lack of aggression and willingness to really hurt wales was what let them back in. The ill discipline (again) came back in a really bad way. That’s all just coaching. Wales barely gave a penalty away in that second half. 

Huge effort from that young and inexperienced Welsh side. They tore Scotland to shreds in that second half and probably deserved a famous victory. Lots of positives for them despite a poor first half.

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Post by jimbopip Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:54 pm

Dancer becomes captain...Scotland concede 14 penalties in a row and almost blow a 27 point lead.
It won't be boring.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:58 pm

Truly one of the worst performances I've seen. You can't just go missing for 40 minutes. All the good work in the first half meant b*gger all. I should've had diazepam on standby!

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Post by BigGee Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:58 pm

How is the players folding like that Toonie's fault?

When we played our own game in the first half, we were all over them. I very much doubt Toonie told them at half time to ease off as the game was won.

At least we remembered how to play in the last 5 mins and saved the day.

I hope a few players miss out next week after thst second half.


It is the players thst need to have a good look at themselves

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Post by bsando Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:59 pm

I hope RDW has plenty of aspirin in his Aussie bungalow

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Post by mountain man Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:00 pm

Scotland did their very best to snatch defeat from jaws of victory.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:06 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Truly one of the worst performances I've seen. You can't just go missing for 40 minutes. All the good work in the first half meant b*gger all. I should've had diazepam on standby!

This could almost be describing Wales’ first half performance! Wales were so poor in that first half. Hence a load of half time subs. If we’d got a few kicks, that conversion, and those tries that we got…..who knows! Ifs and buts I guess Smile

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Post by bsando Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:11 pm

Would Andy Farrell be content with his side 20-0 up at halftime? Or would he be giving them a good rollicking to ensure they get the job done? What about Rassie Erasmus? Would he be happy to be 20-0 up? 

Scotland got too cute at the end of that first half and I saw little or no emotion from the Scotland coaching box to suggest Toonie was anything but smug with the teams efforts despite there still being over 30 mins left on the clock. I’m not blaming any of the players for that near loss, even Turner. The coach didn’t do his job at half time.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:13 pm

Credit to the subs for coming on and trying! Brown looked knackered from what I saw?

Scotland, you got an away win and your first in Cardiff for quite some time. Congratulations, hope you go a bit better next week ie, play a full 80 Smile.

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Post by Mcsweens Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:44 pm

Happy that we finished the game in the right part of the pitch, and probably should have scored at the end. That heartens me somewhat.

Jiffy is so one-eyed I couldn't even get annoyed. Asking Nigel if 1 penalty after the yellow card was another card. His little yelps. it's just comical.

Happy for Kyle Rowe - looked composed and dangerous. A proper test animal.

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Post by BigGee Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:44 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Credit to the subs for coming on and trying! Brown looked knackered from what I saw?

Scotland, you got an away win and your first in Cardiff for quite some time. Congratulations, hope you go a bit better next week ie, play a full 80 Smile.

We will need to, won't get away with that twice!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:11 pm

That second half was utter torture!! We just couldn't get a grip of the game at all. I though our back row in particular was played off the park in that second 40 minutes, and we either gave up on the break down or did stupid things to get penalised. Heads went completely. I just cannot fathom how we can go from total control to zero control. I know Wales were beyond awful in the first 45 mins and then turned it around, but the complete loss of composure will haunt me!

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:14 pm

Mcsweens wrote:Happy that we finished the game in the right part of the pitch, and probably should have scored at the end. That heartens me somewhat.

Jiffy is so one-eyed I couldn't even get annoyed. Asking Nigel if 1 penalty after the yellow card was another card. His little yelps. it's just comical.

Happy for Kyle Rowe - looked composed and dangerous. A proper test animal.

These arguments are as old as the internet itself! As I’ve argued before, surely Jiffy is not meant to be impartial? He’s not picked for that. He’s there because he’s Welsh and Wales are playing. He’s not the commentator. He’s just a pundit. The main commentator is meant to be impartial, and as always he was. The pundits though are there to be partisan and give the emotion of the country they present, past experience as a former player, insights into play, etc. Same as when you get a main commentator paired with Brian Moore who is overtly English!

Wasn’t there another pundit on comms too? Thought it was the main commentator, Jiffy, a Scottish pundit (was it John Barclay?), and Good ‘Ole Nige chipping in with his views on laws. So the Scottish ex player was there because he was Scottish and therefore putting his Scottish bias in! Very Happy

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Post by funnyExiledScot Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:18 pm

I wonder if Toonie will look at the back row next week. We missed Darge so I really hope he makes it, and I don't think Ritchie is in good enough form. I'd take a good look at Christie personally. Crosbie had a very good first half, but not sure he's an 80 minute player. Perhaps go with an extra forward on the bench against France, particularly if Kinghorn is back.

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Post by BigGee Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:29 pm

Crosbie looked pretty knocked up, head injury and shoulder. I doubt he will be fit next week.

Same Ritchie Gray, but GG comes in for him.

Maybe backrow of Darge, Fagerson and Dempsey with Christie on bench.

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Post by RDW Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:34 pm

bsando wrote:I hope RDW has plenty of aspirin in his Aussie bungalow

Holy crap that game looked stressful. I actually woke up at 4am and saw we were 20-0 up so went back to sleep happy.

What a collapse!

It such a strange one because Scotland fans will feel deflated despite doing something we haven't done for 22 years.

If we lost that it would have been worse than 2010, and that's really saying something.

I may just watch the first 43 minutes...

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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:51 pm

RDW wrote:
bsando wrote:I hope RDW has plenty of aspirin in his Aussie bungalow

Holy crap that game looked stressful. I actually woke up at 4am and saw we were 20-0 up so went back to sleep happy.

What a collapse!

It such a strange one because Scotland fans will feel deflated despite doing something we haven't done for 22 years.

If we lost that it would have been worse than 2010, and that's really saying something.

I may just watch the first 43 minutes...

You are the entire Scottish rugby team.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat 03 Feb 2024, 9:01 pm

BigGee wrote:Crosbie looked pretty knocked up, head injury and shoulder. I doubt he will be fit next week.

Same Ritchie Gray, but GG comes in for him.

Maybe backrow of Darge, Fagerson and Dempsey with Christie on bench.

I'd get Christie on starting tbh. I think he's ready.

Ritchie was mouthing off to the ref in the second half which I think contributed to decisions going against us. He's become a liability much in the way players like hines or Hamilton were. Think he needs some time on the naughty step. Turner, if we had more choice, deserves time too. Maybe drop him from the starting berth.

If crosbie is crocked call up ally miller I think. I know ferrie is training but will he actually make the 23? Unlikely. At least miller has a tangible chance. Also Bradbury deserves a chance at an Indian summer but I feel this is less likely.

If I'm being circumspect about the game, at least it gave us a reality check. Too many times we've won with a good performance and gone into the second game with the arrogance and complacency displayed in the second half. I hope the boys are well shook and don't let any of that nonsense happen against France.

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Post by bsando Sat 03 Feb 2024, 9:04 pm

RDW wrote:
bsando wrote:I hope RDW has plenty of aspirin in his Aussie bungalow

Holy crap that game looked stressful. I actually woke up at 4am and saw we were 20-0 up so went back to sleep happy.

What a collapse!

It such a strange one because Scotland fans will feel deflated despite doing something we haven't done for 22 years.

If we lost that it would have been worse than 2010, and that's really saying something.

I may just watch the first 43 minutes...
Nailed it.

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Post by RDW Sat 03 Feb 2024, 9:05 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
BigGee wrote:Crosbie looked pretty knocked up, head injury and shoulder. I doubt he will be fit next week.

Same Ritchie Gray, but GG comes in for him.

Maybe backrow of Darge, Fagerson and Dempsey with Christie on bench.

I'd get Christie on starting tbh. I think he's ready.

Ritchie was mouthing off to the ref in the second half which I think contributed to decisions going against us. He's become a liability much in the way players like hines or Hamilton were. Think he needs some time on the naughty step. Turner, if we had more choice, deserves time too. Maybe drop him from the starting berth.

If crosbie is crocked call up ally miller I think. I know ferrie is training but will he actually make the 23? Unlikely. At least miller has a tangible chance. Also Bradbury deserves a chance at an Indian summer but I feel this is less likely.

If I'm being circumspect about the game, at least it gave us a reality check. Too many times we've won with a good performance and gone into the second game with the arrogance and complacency displayed in the second half. I hope the boys are well shook and don't let any of that nonsense happen against France.

I was thinking the same. As much as I'd rather have won by 40 points (which we really should have done after that first half) those players + Toonie would be thinking we're suddenly world beaters and no doubt massively underwhelm against France.

They'll have a rocket up their arse at training all week!

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat 03 Feb 2024, 9:57 pm

For Wales, a lot of the pessimism and angst about the first team selections came home to roost, plus some others. Leon Brown looked really off the pace and was replaced at half time. He’d only played 1 match for the Dragons in about a year I think, and it showed. Even the usually dependable Josh Adams looked to be heavily strapped and I wonder if he was injured? Elias at hooker was replaced at half time. Gareth Davies at scrum half looked slow. Costelow, as predicted, looked like he was struggling. Botham was poor.

We brought on Tomos Williams, Ioan Lloyd at 10, Dee at Hooker (much more mobile), and everything sped up. Was it just Scotland taking their foot off the gas? Possibly. But I reckon if the same starting XV stayed on then it would have been more of the same from Scotland and their lead would have got into the 40s. So I think the subs really made a difference and we got some good front foot ball, put Scotland under pressure and as such they starting to make errors and concede penalties and, importantly, tries. Wainwright was a different player 2nd half. Like a man possessed. Reffell with some cracking jackal turnovers.  

I would like to see Tomos Williams and Ioan Lloyd as a partnership again. It’s easy to come on when it’s all going wrong and look better. But they really did look good.

Just really happy for the young guys who stood up: Lloyd, Mann, Teddy Williams, Winnett at full back, etc.


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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat 03 Feb 2024, 10:03 pm

Also, how bizarre that we got the try bonus point and not Scotland! A funny old game that.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 10:22 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Also, how bizarre that we got the try bonus point and not Scotland! A funny old game that.

Not a fan of the bonus point system and Scotland only getting two points more than Wales (in a system where it's four points for a win) illustrates why.

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Post by BigGee Sat 03 Feb 2024, 10:32 pm

I think Wales were well worthy of their two points. Though we should really hsve scored at the end and maybe taken one of them away.

Wales got rewarded for some attacking play when all seemed lost, that is surely what we all want to see.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat 03 Feb 2024, 10:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Also, how bizarre that we got the try bonus point and not Scotland! A funny old game that.

Not a fan of the bonus point system and Scotland only getting two points more than Wales (in a system where it's four points for a win) illustrates why.

Scotland only getting 2 points more when they scored fewer tries and only won by 1 point?! Sort of shows the need for the BP system in the first place, if you ask me! Just seems harsh on a team to lose by a single point, score more tries, but get 0 points while the other team gets 4! And that’s from someone who was against BPs when they first came in!

Is there any rugby competition that doesn’t have BPs and LBPs now?

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Post by R!skysports Sat 03 Feb 2024, 11:18 pm

Wow. We were bad.

Not sure if we can even say the first half was good. Just lucky wales wanted to drop the ball and kick it to us all the time

Overall one of the worst performances for a while and as the settled team is a real worry


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Post by bsando Sat 03 Feb 2024, 11:58 pm

RDW wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
BigGee wrote:Crosbie looked pretty knocked up, head injury and shoulder. I doubt he will be fit next week.

Same Ritchie Gray, but GG comes in for him.

Maybe backrow of Darge, Fagerson and Dempsey with Christie on bench.

I'd get Christie on starting tbh. I think he's ready.

Ritchie was mouthing off to the ref in the second half which I think contributed to decisions going against us. He's become a liability much in the way players like hines or Hamilton were. Think he needs some time on the naughty step. Turner, if we had more choice, deserves time too. Maybe drop him from the starting berth.

If crosbie is crocked call up ally miller I think. I know ferrie is training but will he actually make the 23? Unlikely. At least miller has a tangible chance. Also Bradbury deserves a chance at an Indian summer but I feel this is less likely.

If I'm being circumspect about the game, at least it gave us a reality check. Too many times we've won with a good performance and gone into the second game with the arrogance and complacency displayed in the second half. I hope the boys are well shook and don't let any of that nonsense happen against France.

I was thinking the same. As much as I'd rather have won by 40 points (which we really should have done after that first half) those players + Toonie would be thinking we're suddenly world beaters and no doubt massively underwhelm against France.

They'll have a rocket up their arse at training all week!
I think Shaun Edward’s rockets may be bigger.

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Post by RDW Sun 04 Feb 2024, 12:25 am

bsando wrote:
RDW wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
BigGee wrote:Crosbie looked pretty knocked up, head injury and shoulder. I doubt he will be fit next week.

Same Ritchie Gray, but GG comes in for him.

Maybe backrow of Darge, Fagerson and Dempsey with Christie on bench.

I'd get Christie on starting tbh. I think he's ready.

Ritchie was mouthing off to the ref in the second half which I think contributed to decisions going against us. He's become a liability much in the way players like hines or Hamilton were. Think he needs some time on the naughty step. Turner, if we had more choice, deserves time too. Maybe drop him from the starting berth.

If crosbie is crocked call up ally miller I think. I know ferrie is training but will he actually make the 23? Unlikely. At least miller has a tangible chance. Also Bradbury deserves a chance at an Indian summer but I feel this is less likely.

If I'm being circumspect about the game, at least it gave us a reality check. Too many times we've won with a good performance and gone into the second game with the arrogance and complacency displayed in the second half. I hope the boys are well shook and don't let any of that nonsense happen against France.

I was thinking the same. As much as I'd rather have won by 40 points (which we really should have done after that first half) those players + Toonie would be thinking we're suddenly world beaters and no doubt massively underwhelm against France.

They'll have a rocket up their arse at training all week!
I think Shaun Edward’s rockets may be bigger.

Yeah I don't think the players will be loose forward to his sessions next week.

Something to raise again is who gives the rockets for underprivileged Scott players? Toonie is more the 'I'm not mad just very disappointed' type. Tandy is a gruff Welshman who ironically is probably the most suited to the task!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 04 Feb 2024, 7:23 am

We don't really have a proper enforcer in camp, I think that was Dan McFarlands role when he was forwards coach, I still think we're missing him. This is partly why I think a new coaching setup would have benefitted us post WC. I know not everything is down to Toonie but it feels like a fresh set of eyes are needed, and they need someone to boot them up the arse psychologically.

Saw it with big VC when he joined, seen it with Franco at Glasgow and, to some degree, Everett at Edinburgh. Basically we need a non Scottish coach I think to get us over the Scottish psyche which is either "we're going to lose so let's nae bother" or "we're ahead so when are we gonnae lose".

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Post by bsando Sun 04 Feb 2024, 7:27 am

Here is my take on player ratings.

Schoeman 6
Turner 5
Fagerson 5
Gray 7
Cummings 5
Crosbie 7
Ritchie 7
Fagerson 6
White 7
Russell 8
VDM 6
Tuipulotu 6
Jones 6
Steyn 7
Rowe 7

Ashman 6, Hepburn 5, MM 5, Skinner 5, Dempsey 6, Horne 7, Healy (N/A), Redpath 7

Overall I think most players did well but some players looked very rusty. Skinner for me looked like he was well off his usual best and he made a very poor decision to grab a Welsh leg from the floor that lead to another penalty. 

The front row had a bad game by their standards, particularly at scrum time. That put Scotland under pressure at times. Not enough carrying from the props.

Cummings seemed quiet to me, we could have done with him stepping up more in that second half. 

Ritchie was excellent in the first half but had a bad day winning turnovers as did the whole back row. O’keefe was a bit inconsistent at the breakdown I thought but the Welsh back rowers certainly got into better body positions to win turnover ball.

A quiet for game M Fagerson, hopefully he’ll grow into the tournament. He’s a senior player now and should be showing a bit more leadership I feel. 

White/Russell both excellent in the first half but dropped off after vdm scored his second. Russell captained well, communication with the ref was great. Some speculative grubbers but his brilliant tactical kicking game was too much for Wales.

Huwipulotu was so-so I thought. Some good and some bad. Tuipulotu is still being used as a body guard for Russell but his ill discipline in defence was costly. No kicks from hand again? Jones always looked dangerous in space but didn’t cut any of his usual good lines. Pass marks in defence. 

Back three - solid performance from all three players but we missed the influence of kinghorn and Graham. VDM could have been more involved at times but he essentially won us that game thanks to his two tries. 

On paper the Scottish bench should have created a momentum shift in Scotlands favour. Utilised late in the game and one back unused (albeit, Healy). Wales convincingly won the second half and their bench were better. Redpath was influential in relieving pressure and getting Scotland back in Wales half. Horne brought much needed energy to the team. 

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Post by bsando Sun 04 Feb 2024, 7:36 am

NeilyBroon wrote:We don't really have a proper enforcer in camp, I think that was Dan McFarlands role when he was forwards coach, I still think we're missing him. This is partly why I think a new coaching setup would have benefitted us post WC. I know not everything is down to Toonie but it feels like a fresh set of eyes are needed, and they need someone to boot them up the arse psychologically.

Saw it with big VC when he joined, seen it with Franco at Glasgow and, to some degree, Everett at Edinburgh. Basically we need a non Scottish coach I think to get us over the Scottish psyche which is either "we're going to lose so let's nae bother" or "we're ahead so when are we gonnae lose".

I agree, it’s not that Toonie is a bad coach but more that he’s not working for Scotland anymore. We’re getting results but failing to get the results we need to progress.. I think given our game plan third is as good as we can hope for but we won’t beat Ireland or France. England is looking about 50-50 this year. I was gutted thst Leon MacDonald opted for the AB’s assistant job over Scotland.

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Post by Mcsweens Sun 04 Feb 2024, 9:32 am

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:
Mcsweens wrote:Happy that we finished the game in the right part of the pitch, and probably should have scored at the end. That heartens me somewhat.

Jiffy is so one-eyed I couldn't even get annoyed. Asking Nigel if 1 penalty after the yellow card was another card. His little yelps. it's just comical.

Happy for Kyle Rowe - looked composed and dangerous. A proper test animal.

These arguments are as old as the internet itself! As I’ve argued before, surely Jiffy is not meant to be impartial? He’s not picked for that. He’s there because he’s Welsh and Wales are playing. He’s not the commentator. He’s just a pundit. The main commentator is meant to be impartial, and as always he was. The pundits though are there to be partisan and give the emotion of the country they present, past experience as a former player, insights into play, etc. Same as when you get a main commentator paired with Brian Moore who is overtly English!

Wasn’t there another pundit on comms too? Thought it was the main commentator, Jiffy, a Scottish pundit (was it John Barclay?), and Good ‘Ole Nige chipping in with his views on laws. So the Scottish ex player was there because he was Scottish and therefore putting his Scottish bias in! Very Happy

I agree that it's good to have Scottish and Welsh voice in co-commentary, however Barclay is not biased.
Like I said, I'm not annoyed, it's just comical. If you are to have credibility as a pundit, you need to have at least a degree of objectivity.
Jiffy doesn't. I like him, good pedigree, but he's not really credible. Wales's Clive Woodward or Jerry Guscott.

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Post by bsando Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:44 am

Everything went back to 2010 for twenty minutes, including Jiffy.

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Post by Mcsweens Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:46 am

Thought Scotland were a bit unlucky to get the first yellow card.
Ref don't usually yellow card for cynical play once a try has been scored.

Also thought the TMO could have looked at Crosbie's going off. He copped a clear elbow to the face there from an arm that wasn't wrapped.


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Post by Mcsweens Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:46 am

bsando wrote:Everything went back to 2010 for twenty minutes, including Jiffy.

Reliving the glory days. Bless

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Post by bsando Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:57 am

Mcsweens wrote:Thought Scotland were a bit unlucky to get the first yellow card.
Ref don't usually yellow card for cynical play once a try has been scored.

Also thought the TMO could have looked at Crosbie's going off. He copped a clear elbow to the face there from an arm that wasn't wrapped.


Yeah actually that surely should have been a try no yellow or penalty try yellow card. Lucky for Scotland it was not a penalty try because that would have lost us the game.

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Post by jimbopip Sun 04 Feb 2024, 11:26 am

I think the reaction to the match is very much a glass half full/half empty thing.
For me it is definitely half full: we won in Cardiff. End of. Ale guinness cider RedWine Bubbly

There were one or two interesting post-match comments; Sam Warbuton couldn't understand why Scotland were not double tackling when Wales were smashing one out balls up the middle. As he said the constant quick ball this produced just meant Scotland were constantly going backwards and under pressure. Secondly, Dancer alluded to people ignoring the coaches instructions not to compete at the breakdown and kept going in when they shouldn't.

Now from my armchair expert point of view...if you have a hefty back row who stay out of the rucks then they stop the one out player in his tracks; do this two or three times and the opposition (especially if it's Wales or Engurlund) kick the ball back to you. This pretty much is how the first half went. At 27-0 it would appear some players went off-script. Suddenly Wales were breaking the line on the first or second carry. Our defensive line wasn't getting time to set. Players were pinged for offside. Penalties to the corner. steam

Our lineout defence was found out on a couple of occasions but that can be remedied. Actually, sometimes the opposition get it right and there's not much you can do. Except not give away 14 penalties in a row.

How's this for a glass half-full; Principality roof closed, Wales score26 unanswered points, ref totally pinging everything you do, crowd going berserk AND THEN you control the last five minutes, camp on their line and almost score, but win the game anyway?
Cheers oh yeah

No arguments that the defensive systems broke down after the game was pretty much won. If I was Toonie and it was as simple as two or three individuals going for the glory play and letting the team down then there would be two or three people having a rest next week.
Crosbie looked battered when he came off. Big Richie may have a broken hand. Mbawza did not have a great second half.
Darge was involved in the pre match warm ups. Christie should be in consideration. Dempsey may well start.

I think the France game will look less like a cerebral coaches symposium than a flash mob re-enactment of Ali-Frazier's chiller in Manilla. two angry teams with something to prove.  Wales vs Scotland | The Doddie Weir Cup  - Page 4 1347041234

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Post by jimbopip Sun 04 Feb 2024, 11:40 am

On a slightly brighter note, if anything can be that much brighter than beating Wales in Cardiff, rumours are abounding this morning that Rory Sutherland is signing a two year contract for Glasgow.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 04 Feb 2024, 12:25 pm

jimbopip wrote:I think the reaction to the match is very much a glass half full/half empty thing.
For me it is definitely half full: we won in Cardiff. End of. Ale guinness cider RedWine Bubbly

There were one or two interesting post-match comments; Sam Warbuton couldn't understand why Scotland were not double tackling when Wales were smashing one out balls up the middle. As he said the constant quick ball this produced just meant Scotland were constantly going backwards and under pressure. Secondly, Dancer alluded to people ignoring the coaches instructions not to compete at the breakdown and kept going in when they shouldn't.

Now from my armchair expert point of view...if you have a hefty back row who stay out of the rucks then they stop the one out player in his tracks; do this two or three times and the opposition (especially if it's Wales or Engurlund) kick the ball back to you. This pretty much is how the first half went. At 27-0 it would appear some players went off-script. Suddenly Wales were breaking the line on the first or second carry. Our defensive line wasn't getting time to set. Players were pinged for offside. Penalties to the corner. steam

Our lineout defence was found out on a couple of occasions but that can be remedied. Actually, sometimes the opposition get it right and there's not much you can do. Except not give away 14 penalties in a row.

How's this for a glass half-full; Principality roof closed, Wales score26 unanswered points, ref totally pinging everything you do, crowd going berserk AND THEN you control the last five minutes, camp on their line and almost score, but win the game anyway?
Cheers oh yeah

No arguments that the defensive systems broke down after the game was pretty much won. If I was Toonie and it was as simple as two or three individuals going for the glory play and letting the team down then there would be two or three people having a rest next week.
Crosbie looked battered when he came off. Big Richie may have a broken hand. Mbawza did not have a great second half.
Darge was involved in the pre match warm ups. Christie should be in consideration. Dempsey may well start.

I think the France game will look less like a cerebral coaches symposium than a flash mob re-enactment of Ali-Frazier's chiller in Manilla. two angry teams with something to prove.  Wales vs Scotland | The Doddie Weir Cup  - Page 4 1347041234

I hope so, I want to live beyond 33!

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sun 04 Feb 2024, 4:15 pm

Mcsweens wrote:
TAFKA The Oracle wrote:
Mcsweens wrote:Happy that we finished the game in the right part of the pitch, and probably should have scored at the end. That heartens me somewhat.

Jiffy is so one-eyed I couldn't even get annoyed. Asking Nigel if 1 penalty after the yellow card was another card. His little yelps. it's just comical.

Happy for Kyle Rowe - looked composed and dangerous. A proper test animal.

These arguments are as old as the internet itself! As I’ve argued before, surely Jiffy is not meant to be impartial? He’s not picked for that. He’s there because he’s Welsh and Wales are playing. He’s not the commentator. He’s just a pundit. The main commentator is meant to be impartial, and as always he was. The pundits though are there to be partisan and give the emotion of the country they present, past experience as a former player, insights into play, etc. Same as when you get a main commentator paired with Brian Moore who is overtly English!

Wasn’t there another pundit on comms too? Thought it was the main commentator, Jiffy, a Scottish pundit (was it John Barclay?), and Good ‘Ole Nige chipping in with his views on laws. So the Scottish ex player was there because he was Scottish and therefore putting his Scottish bias in! Very Happy

I agree that it's good to have Scottish and Welsh voice in co-commentary, however Barclay is not biased.
Like I said, I'm not annoyed, it's just comical. If you are to have credibility as a pundit, you need to have at least a degree of objectivity.
Jiffy doesn't. I like him, good pedigree, but he's not really credible. Wales's Clive Woodward or Jerry Guscott.

No, no, I’m not saying Barclay is biased. I’m saying he has Scottish bias (key difference) by dint of him being Scottish and having been in the Scottish set up as an international and captain. He’s there to represent the Scottish side, to champion them and to give his insight from a Scotland point of view, like Jiffy can do for Wales.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sun 04 Feb 2024, 4:16 pm

Mcsweens wrote:
bsando wrote:Everything went back to 2010 for twenty minutes, including Jiffy.

Reliving the glory days. Bless

Oh to have glory days to relive, hey?! boxing  Wink Run

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Post by George Carlin Sun 04 Feb 2024, 4:21 pm

The irony wasn't lost on me that if any team knows about not actually trying to play until the game is lost, mounting a huge comeback, creating lots of excitement and then failing to actually win, it's Scotland.

Wales cannot gloriously and agonisingly fail. That's our job. Go and get your own girlfriend. Run

A nutty game and Gatland will have learned a hell of a lot about those youngfellers. Lots of good stuff and a new generation of loose forwards have now stood up at test level.
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Post by RiscaGame Sun 04 Feb 2024, 6:18 pm

Firstly, congratulations to Scotland. I really thought we were on for a hiding after that first half.

Wales were so poor first half. I felt Scotland clocked off when they were so comfortable and Wales did actually play some alright stuff when they made some decent changes. I would start a lot of the subs next week, as well as North.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 04 Feb 2024, 6:27 pm

Ah meant to say as well, I thought it was pretty poor form for Gatland to throw Adams under the bus. Yes it was daft, but Gatland was just as much to blame for the defeat as anybody, with his wrong selections.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:15 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Ah meant to say as well, I thought it was pretty poor form for Gatland to throw Adams under the bus. Yes it was daft, but Gatland was just as much to blame for the defeat as anybody, with his wrong selections.

Are you talking about the penalty and resulting 3 points for throwing the ball away? If so, I know what you’re saying, but Adams is probably classed as one of our senior players now. Little things like he did that just gift 3 points to the opposition are a real coach killer. Not to mention an extra kick in nuts when we’re already under the cosh and leaking points through normal play. And that’s from a senior player. Had it been a debutant I’d like to think he wouldn’t have called them out for it too much, but I’m guessing he’s looking to Adams to lead by example and set high standards of discipline.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 05 Feb 2024, 10:24 am

Adams didn't look 100% during the match but I guess he didn't pick himself. I would start Grady in place of him next weekend and we should expect somewhat of a response from the team. That was shocking when Adams threw the ball away, but yes more shocking is what Gatland is doing. He's clearly still surrounded by yes-men and somehow believes he can pick semi-pro type players and get them to perform, delusional. Last year's 6N was shocking, the pre-RWC game versus SA was shocking and he looks set to continue. You have to worry about what the score could be when this lot go over to Ireland.

Gatland is stale, out of ideas and needs to move on.

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Post by RDW Mon 05 Feb 2024, 10:29 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Adams didn't look 100% during the match but I guess he didn't pick himself. I would start Grady in place of him next weekend and we should expect somewhat of a response from the team. That was shocking when Adams threw the ball away, but yes more shocking is what Gatland is doing. He's clearly still surrounded by yes-men and somehow believes he can pick semi-pro type players and get them to perform, delusional. Last year's 6N was shocking, the pre-RWC game versus SA was shocking and he looks set to continue. You have to worry about what the score could be when this lot go over to Ireland.

Gatland is stale, out of ideas and needs to move on.

I was thinking about this. Given where the Wales team is now, is he really the right person to lead the team into the next generation? I wonder if both parties regret him coming back and such a long-term deal. He's not a young man by any stretch - does.he have the enthusiasm and energy to force this team to where they need to be?

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 05 Feb 2024, 12:45 pm

RDW wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Adams didn't look 100% during the match but I guess he didn't pick himself. I would start Grady in place of him next weekend and we should expect somewhat of a response from the team. That was shocking when Adams threw the ball away, but yes more shocking is what Gatland is doing. He's clearly still surrounded by yes-men and somehow believes he can pick semi-pro type players and get them to perform, delusional. Last year's 6N was shocking, the pre-RWC game versus SA was shocking and he looks set to continue. You have to worry about what the score could be when this lot go over to Ireland.

Gatland is stale, out of ideas and needs to move on.

I was thinking about this. Given where the Wales team is now, is he really the right person to lead the team into the next generation? I wonder if both parties regret him coming back and such a long-term deal. He's not a young man by any stretch - does.he have the enthusiasm and energy to force this team to where they need to be?

I think the answer to both is no. A new coach wouldn't change a great deal because we still haven't sorted out the Regions, academies, etc. That's going to get worse before it can get better. I'm sure a different coach would be cheaper and could provide us with something new though.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 05 Feb 2024, 2:34 pm

I re-watched the game and it was interesting that Wales had two chances to score just before half time. The kicked a penalty to the right hand corner and had a 5 metre lineout. Unfortunately for them, they overthrew and lost possession. Shortly after they had another penalty, which they kicked for the left hand corner. This time they failed to find touch and Scotland went in 20-0 ahead.

Part of me wishes Wales had scored from one of them.
Two reasons.
First; Scotland wouldn't have been as complacent as they were when it went to 27-0.
Second; if Wales had pulled their very clever load one side of the maul (the opposite side to where Scotland were expecting them to be) move and scored then in all likelihood the Scotland coaches could have spent half time sorting that out. I make it Wale scored three tries from that move.

It's a funny old game but I reckon messing up two chances to score actually worked to your benefit in the long run.

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