De Grand Finale match - begorrah! England v Ireland 17 March - Hic!

First topic message reminder :

The stage is set for a humdinger of a match next week today with the final match of the Championship hosting a revitalised England fresh from victory in France against their bogey team, Ireland.



Despite a recent run of victories - home and away - against England, Ireland never seem to have a problem in getting up for this match. The fact that it's in Twickenham on St Patrick's Day will give it that little extra edge.

Lancaster and his troops will want to sign off their first season in charge with a flourish. Kidney's Ireland, having been unlucky in the Welsh match, and kicking themselves after their draw in Paris, will want to put another good score and victory on the board.



Ireland will be without O'Connell again who did a lot of the pre-match talking in the build-up to last year's victory for the men in green. England seem full of confidence and it looks like Lancaster has found the right mix and belief that's going to make this grand finale a belter.

Are English fans feeling confident? Irish ones a bit more doubtful of continuing their English streak?


England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Lee Dickson, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (capt), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Alex Corbisiero.
Replacements: 16 Rob Webber, 17 Matt Stevens, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Charlie Hodgson, 22 Mike Brown.

Ireland: 15 R Kearney (Leinster), 14 T Bowe (Ospreys), 13 K Earls (Munster), 12 G D'Arcy (Leinster), 11 A Trimble (Ulster), 10 J Sexton (Leinster), 9 E Reddan (Leinster); 1 C Healy (Leinster), 2 R Best (Ulster, capt), 3 M Ross (Leinster), 4 D O'Callaghan (Munster), 5 D Ryan (Munster), 6 S Ferris (Ulster), 7 S O'Brien (Leinster), 8 J Heaslip (Leinster)
Replacements: 16 S Cronin (Leinster), 17 T Court (Ulster), 18 M McCarthy (Connacht), 19 P O'Mahony (Munster), 20 T O'Leary (Munster), 21 R O'Gara (Munster), 22 F McFadden (Leinster)


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http://www.wasps.co.uk/MatchReport.ink?matchid=7462

What's your point?

tecphobe wrote:Ireland are simply a better side than England and have been since 2003

I have no idea why I'm continuing this, but looking at the history of the 6 nations and general rugby from 2000 onwards, England have had more success than Ireland but have an incredibly poor head to head record with them. I think that's why people consider them a bogey side.

I agree that they've been better than England since 03 though, until last year.

gowales wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

gowales wrote:Haven't really seen many games where the Irish Provinces have battered English Clubs either...

Dont Watch much rugby then ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9012982/Ulster-41-Leicester-Tigers-7-match-report.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2089971/Northampton-36-Munster-51-Simon-Zebo-lands-hat-trick-Saints-suffer-record-defeat.html Just from this season of the top of my head

Yea i know those games duh... Northampton should have beaten Munster in the first game though. Anyway, apart from this season Irish - English club games have usually been tightly contested.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16223172 Heineken Cup: Pool 3: Leinster 52-27 Bath

In 2002–03, they reached the quarter-finals after a win against Gloucester, later issued on VHS under the title "The Miracle Match". In this game, Munster needed to win by a margin of at least 27 points and score a minimum of four tries to earn a quarter-final berthhey won 33–6 with four tries in a game that has become part of Munster rugby folklore

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/7189296.stm
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/4893.php

tecphobe wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:By any measure Ireland are England's current bogey team. As France and New Zealand are Ireland's and Italy are Wales from time to time.

They're the ones who trip you up, who you can't put away, who manage to win a match despite you having put all the effort in, who give you a good scare, and who beat you when you're not expecting it. They're just bogey. And beating your bogey is always a good thing. So England will be well up for this.

Ireland are simply a better side than England and have been since 2003

Except for 2008 and 2011 of course

HammerofThunor wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:By any measure Ireland are England's current bogey team. As France and New Zealand are Ireland's and Italy are Wales from time to time.

They're the ones who trip you up, who you can't put away, who manage to win a match despite you having put all the effort in, who give you a good scare, and who beat you when you're not expecting it. They're just bogey. And beating your bogey is always a good thing. So England will be well up for this.

Ireland are simply a better side than England and have been since 2003

Except for 2008 and 2011 of course

the important part of 2007 as well.

And back on topic - instead of talking about Heinken cup matches - what do England fans see as strengths over Ireland next week?

gowales wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/7189296.stm
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/4893.php

2008 Muster won it didnt they the following year Leinster beat Leister in the final

Pot Hale wrote:And back on topic - instead of talking about Heinken cup matches - what do England fans see as strengths over Ireland next week?

well we have improved every game.

we started of with a defensive approach and slowly but surely have got better in the attack.

we are at home, the teams are evenly matched , we will be slight bookies favs, we are coming of a win, farrel and manu!

None. We're hexed not as good as Ireland.

We're playing alright and might win if Ireland fluff it or the ref is kind (can't be Pearson or Barnes unfortunately)

Yes, so what thats just an example of when an English team battered an Irish team.

Who cares? the real game is before it Slam time baby

Ireland by 10-15 points against South Africa B

I think Tuilagi is going to be a thorn in Ireland's side next week. He's enjoying his rugby and his delight at his run and try today was evident - great to see.

Pot Hale wrote:I think Tuilagi is going to be a thorn in Ireland's side next week. He's enjoying his rugby and his delight at his run and try today was evident - great to see.

Id actually say messing aside say that he would worry me the most. Ireland will need to blitz a lot to stop him getting a head of steam. Earls would fancy him self taking him on the outside

Ive given up being negative about England, its making me look like a right muppet and Im running out of hats to eat.

England by 5

EnglishReign wrote:

tecphobe wrote:Ireland are simply a better side than England and have been since 2003

I have no idea why I'm continuing this, but looking at the history of the 6 nations and general rugby from 2000 onwards, England have had more success than Ireland but have an incredibly poor head to head record with them. I think that's why people consider them a bogey side.

I agree that they've been better than England since 03 though, until last year.

Quite. Just like England have been Frances bogey side, France New Zealands bogey side, and the entire southern hemisphere Wales'.

peter lol dont do it this time blimey- your gonna jinz us

England v Ireland is always a great game, very tough to call to be honest.

Ireland like France today have a mutch more experince team than what England have, but England won against France today, and it was in France. So England playing at home could be just the tonic that England need to pull off a win.

And there's no more glorious sight in the Kingdom than watching 15 Englishmen in white pulling off a win in front of 80,000 adoring fans.....

The thIng Is, with Wales being the top NH team, it's difficult for them to show signs of improvement

All they can do is keep winning.

How do you reckon Stuart Lancaster creates competition for places?

Rumour has it he re-plays the Super 15 off sky+ and points out who wants a British passport!
Hence scaring the players into trying harder

If youre having to resort to that view its a sure sign your meds are running short again

( Mentions shane howarth and number of englishmen in current welsh side)

odd isnt it that we only ever hear the above when we are winning

mystiroakey wrote:odd isnt it that we only ever hear the above when we are winning

Funny how it goes, Wales are always "lucky" when they win

Yaay! Well done the boys. And can we attack? Oh yes we can. Well, sometimes. Have to admit I have yet to see Manu pass in an international, but you can't have everything.

Croft had an absolute stormer even without the try, we won the scrum and just about held the French offloading game. Morgan is a 60 minute monster, Ashton was great in defence, nothing in attack and must shut his gob. All in all, a pretty good afternoon's work!

But discipline is still an issue, reckon Brown is worth a go at FB (NOT wing - I gather he is a specialist and doesn't do the wing) and would welcome alternatives to Hartley who just doesn't quite cut it. I'm not sure Mears is the answer, but don't know enough about it beyond being increasingly dubious about Hartley, who seems to miss crucial line outs and stand up in the scrum.

slartibartfast wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:odd isnt it that we only ever hear the above when we are winning

Funny how it goes, Wales are always "lucky" when they win

Funny how its alwasy the refs fault when they lose....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:odd isnt it that we only ever hear the above when we are winning

Funny how it goes, Wales are always "lucky" when they win

Funny how its alwasy the refs fault when they lose....

Pot, kettle, black. Let me take you back two weeks...

slartibartfast wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:odd isnt it that we only ever hear the above when we are winning

Funny how it goes, Wales are always "lucky" when they win

Funny how its alwasy the refs fault when they lose....

Pot, kettle, black. Let me take you back two weeks...

Typical welsh, always living off past glories...

Just to break in on the Welsh English thing going on here (get a room guys)...

The game should be a cracker. England are starting to motor a bit but I think Ireland have really started improving in terms of execution since the Welsh game. I expect a huge game from Sexton on Saturday and I think our pack will have the edge (it wont be the same as the "friendly" last year before the world cup when we didnt turn up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Znh0OM9jiA&feature=related

(get a room guys)...

We have. It's called Britain.

Think you've the edge, but then I've thought that about England's opposition every game so far. You've had the hoodoo on us for some years, no doubt about it. But these young lads have no baggage and are putting it together game on game. Mayb we'll do you too! Got to love the 6Ns. every game means sooooo much!

even though this game means nothing in terms of the championship(i cant see wales losing and england winning by 30 odd!!) it is still gonna be a brilliant match up and on paddys day!

tecphobe wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Znh0OM9jiA&feature=related

Link doesn't work.

Hopefully there'll be at least 5 or six tries next week with Bowe getting a couple.

Once we dont gift England tries like France did we should win.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:odd isnt it that we only ever hear the above when we are winning

Funny how it goes, Wales are always "lucky" when they win

Funny how its alwasy the refs fault when they lose....

Pot, kettle, black. Let me take you back two weeks...

Typical welsh, always living off past glories...

Nah, there aren't many.

tecphobe wrote:Ireland by 10-15 points against South Africa B

I would check the fixture list. You're not playing Ulster

Just spotted this little clip in a report in the Independent on the Ireland v Scotland match.

"With a stiff upper lip, Kidney conceded only a need to "place on the record" that the International Rugby Board referee manager, Paddy O'Brien, had informed him a review of the France match showed errors in penalties either not awarded to the Irish or given to the French."

The penalty count was 4-12 in France's favour.

Who was the ref? Step forward Mr D Pearson.

Do these reports ever see the light of day? Would be interesting in the light of complaints about refs in two of the games this weekend.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

tecphobe wrote:Ireland by 10-15 points against South Africa B

I would check the fixture list. You're not playing Ulster

a team from the two XV's :

healy v corbisiero - healy, incredible work rate for a prop. has played 7 before at leinster, albeit only for a couple of minutes!
best v hartley - best, leader and great link player
cole v ross - ross, close between the two, ross more consistent
DOC v Botha - Botha, both aren't great, but doc can be a liability
ryan v parling -ryan, great aggression
ferris v croft - ferris, croft played well v france, but ferris has been incredible
o brien v robshaw - o brien, can win a game on his own
heaslip v morgan - heaslip, may not be rampaging, but shows up at vital times
reddan v dickson - dickson, altho both are below par.
sexton v farrell - farrell, sexton is the superior 10, but farrell in decent form
trimble v sharples - sharples, better poacher
d'arcy v barritt - barritt, massive tackler + d'arcy is rubbish
earls v tuilagi - tuilagi, can make things happen
bowe v ashton - bowe, ashton out of sorts
kearney v foden - close, kearney on current form

9 from Ireland, 6 from England. I can't see Ireland losing on paddys day, although the loss of o connell could well prove costly.

As the OP says, this will be a humdinger of a match. England is looking to carry the form they showed against France to the Irish game, and although many Irish posters have been criticising their team over the past few weeks, there will be a considerable amount of optimism for them to put one over on england.

Here was i thinking that this was an English Irish thread. Welcome back the English Welsh bickering thread

eirebilly wrote:Here was i thinking that this was an English Irish thread. Welcome back the English Welsh bickering thread

Yep, and its the usual suspects with the usual guff. I have a new found confidence going into next Sats game after yesterdays result. However....Ireland are the better side imo and of course, Always beat England!

trebellbobaggins wrote:Ireland have to be massive favourites really, they just have a hex over England.

You never know though.

I wonder if Dowson out means Wood in after his great performance today?

England are favourites - the bookies have Ireland with a +3 start

Breadvan, its going to be a classic, i feel it in my old bones already

Hope so billy. It'll be a much needed game after the "celebrations" in the pub next Sat.

I cant wait myself, i will be drunk anyway, win or lose

I'm have conflicting emotions, if Wales lose it'll be interesting to see how England go about trying to get the points needed to win, and if Wales win...

The telly goes off and I will join the rest of Wales in the street for shape throwing and general rucus!

True, Ireland are our 'bogey' team, and as a long-suffering fan, when I saw 'Ireland: St Patrick's day' on the fixture list my immediate reaction was: "we've lost that one, then."

....but now that I think about it, why? What bearing should history have on this game?

True, there are those in the Ireland camp who will certainly have no fears of facing England. But this is, in many ways, a new England team and – equally – without O’Connell and O’Driscoll, and with new faces in some key positions, there are those in the Ireland team that won’t carry the confidence of past experience with them. Throw into the mix the home advantage, the positive vibes of having won in Paris, and the fact that England actually beat Ireland in their last meeting and I think the psychological battle is much closer to 50:50.

In terms of the relative weaponry in the two sides, again I feel it’s pretty evenly matched. An earlier poster suggested an Irish advantage in the front row, but whilst Healy and Best are proven quality and on form, the English unit is also fairly settled and I see no real disparity there: at the scrum I might even expect England to get the odd nudge, with Cole looking decent. Lineout, again, is hard to call. Traditionally an area of strength for both teams, England’s has been wobbly but Croft looked superb at times yesterday, and O’Connell is out, so you might shade it to England in that set piece but, in reality, there’s nothing in it again. Backrow is where Ireland – for me – have the advantage, but it’s not as clear cut as it was in last year’s grand slam decider. SOB is a force of nature but hasn’t really hit his straps so far this 6N’s, and there are question marks over the balance with him at 7. That said, England have the same problem with Robshaw at 7, although promising showings from Morgan and Croft combined with plenty of endeavour from the skipper lead me to believe that the Irish advantage here isn’t huge. Behind the scrum I’d say advantage England. Sexton is one of those players who will bring the confidence of past history with him, but Farrell is a new face and has shown that he won’t be daunted. The Irish centres have looked out of sorts, whilst Barritt and Tuilagi have been stand-out performers for England. On form, back 3 shades towards Ireland, although there is enough quality in there for England that it certainly won’t be viewed as a weakness.

So there you are....an essay later and my conclusion is: it’s pretty even!!

This is one i can not for the life of me call. losing poc and bod for england game is huge but you can be guaranted the irish will come out like raging bulls from the off. Something they have not done to much of this yr but england we always come out like wild animals.