Ireland vs South Africa pre-match talk and squad announcements.

First topic message reminder :

The much anticipated Autumn Iinternationals has arrived and South Africa will begin their three test tour against Ireland on Saturday at Landsdowne road. With a record of only one win in their last four test matches and 3 straight losses between 2004 and 2009, the Springboks would like to continue their resurgence against Ireland and emulate their two point victory of 2010.

But will they be up for an Ireland team who have been just about as disappointing as the Springboks were in 2012.

Ireland who boast wins over Scotland and Italy and a Hard earned draw over France at Stade de France earlier in the year has a disappointing return of 5 losses, 2 wins and 1 draw for the year.

South Africa has not fared much better, with 4 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws for the year.

Both teams will rue lost opportunities during the year where execution and specifically goal kicking have haunted the Springboks in Particular. Their goal kickin records stands at a miserly 55% for the year and will lose you more tests than win.

Ireland will be without their inspirational captain Brian O'Driscoll and South Africa after a long season will bewithout the services of Arguably the best Hooker in world rugby Bismarck du Plessis, the athletic Andries Bekker, talisman Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies, Heinrich Brussow, Johan Goosen, Bryan Habana (yeah I know I am complaining a bit much here), Frans Steyn and Coenie Oosthuizen.

Will this end of season tour be a bridge too far for an injury riddled South African squad or will they be able to overcome an Irish team who hasn't convinced this year.

Likely SA matchday 22.

1. Beast Mtwarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandre Kruger (Marco Wentzel)
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Francois Hougaard
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jaco Taute
14. JP Pietersen
15. Zane Kirchner

Bench
16. Gurthro Steenkamp
17. Schalk Brits
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Flip v d Merwe
20. Marcelle Coetzee
21. Franco v d Merwe
22. Jan Vermaak
23. Morne Steyn

I'll update if someone provides me a likely Irish matchday 22.

Likely backline; Murray, Sexton, Trimble, D'Arcy, Earls, Bowe, Zebo

That would be perfect....well not perfect but pretty good.....

Zebo at 15? Foolhardy. Not the worst choice, in the circumstances, far from the best. Murray at 9??

We need the combination of Reddan and Sexton out there. Also, so fed up of Gerry Thornley. Could not be any more of a mouthpiece.

Notch wrote:Zebo at 15? Foolhardy. Not the worst choice, in the circumstances, far from the best. Murray at 9??

We need the combination of Reddan and Sexton out there. Also, so fed up of Gerry Thornley. Could not be any more of a mouthpiece.

I'd prefer Earls at 15 and Cave at 13, but if Earls is going to be at 13, I think that Zebo is the next best choice, he has the potential to be very good there, has a great boot, and this season at least has been solid under the high ball.

Thornley has sacrificed his integrity for access, although he doesn't seem to be getting as much access as he previously was, he is still trying to stay onside with the camp, and not upset anyone. It is a very hard line for journalists to walk, especially as there is always the risk that upsetting the camp will lead to your organistation as a whole losing access, but Thornley has gone much to far and lost all credibility as a voice on Irish rugby.

I'm fed up with all the Irish Journos, North and South. They brainwash people with their propaganda and one eyed, ill informed, cynical, bias gumph. None of them have any credibility imo.

For what it’s worth I’d favour:

Earls
Bowe – Cave – Darcy – Zebo
Sexton – Reddan

Henderson – Heaslip – Henry
Ryan – POC
Healy – Strauss – Ross

Cronin – Court – Fitzpatrick (is he injured?) – DOC – POM – Murray – Jackson – McFadden (versatile)

Fitzpatrick has a concussion I think. Not sure if he's available.

I don't think Reddan will ever be 1st choice 9 whilst Kidney is in charge so I wouldn't get my hopes up about that lads....

Cave, D'arcy I'm not sure of...looks a bit on the slow side and vulnerable defensively. Cave is pretty clever and a good organiser but he and D'arcy have never played together. I see that backling being a tad lateral with only Bowe there who can break an organised defence.

D'arcy will start so who compliments him best? I think Trimble or Bowe(someone who can break the gainline) but it won't happen.

you know its bad when your favourite rugby journo at the moment is neil francis. wind up merchant gets it very wrong at times but at least he is not afraid to start an argument and give an opinion.

valjester agree completely re thornley and access, but it doesn't make for exciting reading or stimulate debate.

things are not much better in the uk. stephen jones is a clown but primarily a wind up merchant. would no doubt still have mike tindall for the lions with gavin henson starting 10

stuart barnes does a sex wee every time rog kicks the ball out of play in or scores a drop goal in the heiniken cup. to be fair barnes is probably jealous beacause for all his running abilitites as a player at 10 he still was not very good.

Looks like Paul is around thank god!

That's the team I have too Mick just with POM at 6

Actually when was the last time POM played 6?
Maybe Henderson/McLaughlin are better calls there.

Some updates from the springbok camp.

According to Beeld’s website, Lambie trained at flyhalf during the Springboks’ training session at the Blackrock College Rugby Club on Monday and should start at pivot ahead of Morné Steyn and Elton Jantjies.

Meyer last week indicated he would give Lambie a chance at flyhalf on this tour. “He is tried and tested at Super Rugby level but I want to go forward with two flyhalves from here and I want to use this opportunity to see what Pat can do at this level,” Meyer was quoted as saying last week.

The Bok coach said on Monday he is excited about the future of the No 10 position in South Africa.

“We probably have the best generation of young flyhalves in South Africa in the past decade. They just need to get chances,” said Meyer, referring to Lambie, Jantjies and the injured Johan Goosen.

“The big test is to play in conditions like we’ll be encountering now. All three of them are good runners and ball distributors. However, it is important, with the 2015 World Cup in mind, that they can play a clever tactical game.”

Meanwhile, Bok skipper Jean de Villiers and flank Francois Louw trained on their own next to the field. De Villiers is still recovering from a hamstring injury but should be ready to tackle the Irish. Louw has a neck injury and his chances of being ready now look slim, which should see Marcell Coetzee start in his place.

After the Test against Ireland on Saturday, the Boks face Scotland a week later in Edinburgh before concluding their tour against England in London on November 24.

I don't know how to call this match. Both teams are missing players and Ireland always manage to underperform.

The rumoured Ireland team is:

Zebo;
Bowe, Earls, Darcy, Trimble;
Sexton, Murray;
Healy, Strauss, Ross,
POC, Ryan,
POM, Henry, Heaslip.

Henderson, Bent and Kilcoyne among the subs.

If Kilcoyne was ahead of Court on the bench... I mean, that doesn't make sense. On any level.

I'd be delighted with that team prof...where did you hear that rumour?

Notch wrote:If Kilcoyne was ahead of Court on the bench... I mean, that doesn't make sense. On any level.

Of course it does..if Trimbs, Bowe and Henry start and Hendo is on the bench then we'd have used up the Ulster quota....

Jeebus Notch next you'll be looking for Paddy Wallace in there too

Notch wrote:If Kilcoyne was ahead of Court on the bench... I mean, that doesn't make sense. On any level.

Agreed.

I also am hugely against the selection of Murray. He has been at best average this season and hasn't played that well in Green in his stint there so far.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:If Kilcoyne was ahead of Court on the bench... I mean, that doesn't make sense. On any level.

Agreed.

I also am hugely against the selection of Murray. He has been at best average this season and hasn't played that well in Green in his stint there so far.

Pete, Munster fans have a widget that allows fans to rate each player for every game and do an accumulate average over the season. So far the average ratings for the controverial players are:

Simon Zebo 7.2
Kilcoyne 6.4
Stephen Archer 5.7
Conor Murray 6.1

Comparisons are:
Howlett: 5.9
Wian: 5.7
BJ: 6.1
Duncan Williams: 5.3

Murray got MOTM against Edinburgh in the Heineken Cup and has scored 3 tries todate.
Considering he has had so few games for Ireland, maybe its worthwhile sticking with him for a while to see if he can build up a decent partnership with Sexton - I think they have started about 5 games together so far and 3 of them were against NZ.

The last game against SA will give you a good idea why Reddan is a bad option.

Zebo isn't controversial really, he's been excellent and has earned his start. Just a big gamble to play him at fullback, which I hope pays off. Feel like Earls or Bowe would have been better options.

That big 15 for Leinster on the weekend is great under the ball and looks a useful player. Why's he not in the frame

Has Zebo played at 15 before? Or was that a joke?

And is Jennings injured? Or just not up to snuff?

Dave Kearney has the genes for it Ruby but isn't yet part of team Ireland

Back 3 of Zebo, Bowe, Trimble for me...who plays 15 doesn't matter because they'll drop the ball anyways.....

I think it wasn't Kearney, you have another big lad playing full back - I'll dig his name out if you cant remember him

RubyGuby wrote:I think it wasn't Kearney, you have another big lad playing full back - I'll dig his name out if you cant remember him

Rob Kearney and Dave Kearney. You saw Dave.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:If Kilcoyne was ahead of Court on the bench... I mean, that doesn't make sense. On any level.

Agreed.

I also am hugely against the selection of Murray. He has been at best average this season and hasn't played that well in Green in his stint there so far.

Pete, Munster fans have a widget that allows fans to rate each player for every game and do an accumulate average over the season. So far the average ratings for the controverial players are:

Simon Zebo 7.2
Kilcoyne 6.4
Stephen Archer 5.7
Conor Murray 6.1

Comparisons are:
Howlett: 5.9
Wian: 5.7
BJ: 6.1
Duncan Williams: 5.3

Murray got MOTM against Edinburgh in the Heineken Cup and has scored 3 tries todate.
Considering he has had so few games for Ireland, maybe its worthwhile sticking with him for a while to see if he can build up a decent partnership with Sexton - I think they have started about 5 games together so far and 3 of them were against NZ.

The last game against SA will give you a good idea why Reddan is a bad option.

I reckon Marshall is more deserving than either of them. I didn't think Murray deserved that MotM but it was great to see him bounce back from the previous game, showed some mental strength. I think Marshall has been by far the most consistent this season and of the highest standard.

Hope Zebo doesn't start 15 that is a lot of pressure on him and I think he has looked UNREAL on the wing

Notch wrote:Zebo isn't controversial really, he's been excellent and has earned his start. Just a big gamble to play him at fullback, which I hope pays off. Feel like Earls or Bowe would have been better options.

One big thing Zebo has going for him is that he is very confident and won't fall to pieces if he drops a ball or makes a mistake. The other thing is that he has a great boot and probably has the pace to get himself out of trouble.

George Carlin wrote:Has Zebo played at 15 before? Or was that a joke?

No he hasn't. And it's not a joke.

This is where we are right now.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:If Kilcoyne was ahead of Court on the bench... I mean, that doesn't make sense. On any level.

Agreed.

I also am hugely against the selection of Murray. He has been at best average this season and hasn't played that well in Green in his stint there so far.

Pete, Munster fans have a widget that allows fans to rate each player for every game and do an accumulate average over the season. So far the average ratings for the controverial players are:

Simon Zebo 7.2
Kilcoyne 6.4
Stephen Archer 5.7
Conor Murray 6.1

Comparisons are:
Howlett: 5.9
Wian: 5.7
BJ: 6.1
Duncan Williams: 5.3

Murray got MOTM against Edinburgh in the Heineken Cup and has scored 3 tries todate.
Considering he has had so few games for Ireland, maybe its worthwhile sticking with him for a while to see if he can build up a decent partnership with Sexton - I think they have started about 5 games together so far and 3 of them were against NZ.

The last game against SA will give you a good idea why Reddan is a bad option.

I reckon Marshall is more deserving than either of them. I didn't think Murray deserved that MotM but it was great to see him bounce back from the previous game, showed some mental strength. I think Marshall has been by far the most consistent this season and of the highest standard.

Hope Zebo doesn't start 15 that is a lot of pressure on him and I think he has looked UNREAL on the wing

Marshall had an early start to the season. Marshall has never played with Sexton before - SA isn't the game to try that out. Have we ever seen Marshall behind a pack on the back foot?

have we won a meaningful game with murray and sexton at fly half?

reddan and sexton started v aus and england two of our finest victories under kidney. just saying

murray under penneys coaching im sure will become a good international scrum half. i just feel that when he plays for ireland he takes far too long to get the ball away from the ruck area and is too keen to bash around the fringes. perhaps on orders

the lad does not have a bad pass on him thats the frustrating thing.

Actually didn't Murray start v Australia?

Anyone know when the teams are due to be announced? I just assumed it would be today but am guessing now that it's tomorrow or even later in week? Has the announcement been delayed due to any fitness doubts?

IHM I was about to ask the same question.

Regarding the back three lads, would Keatley not be a viable option at 15...???

He would be but he's not in the squad.

Have to say I'm champing at the bit because I can't wait to get that sinking feeling when I see the team and realise once again that Kidney is never going to change!

rodders reddan and sexton started v aus and were dropped for the quarters.

a brave some may say stupid call.

Yeah stupid is definitely closer to the correct description.

Felix Jones of Munster is the fella I was thinking about

dublin_dave wrote:have we won a meaningful game with murray and sexton at fly half?

reddan and sexton started v aus and england two of our finest victories under kidney. just saying

murray under penneys coaching im sure will become a good international scrum half. i just feel that when he plays for ireland he takes far too long to get the ball away from the ruck area and is too keen to bash around the fringes. perhaps on orders

the lad does not have a bad pass on him thats the frustrating thing.

Reddan & Sexton started against SA two years ago and we lost (Reddan responsible for 1 SA try). They also started against England in the 6Ns this year (Reddan is not good behind a pack having a hard day).

Murray started two of Ireland best performances this year - v. France (draw) and v. NZ (2nd test).

PS - Murray came on against Australia on the 57th Min. and scored a disallowed try. Its fair to say he had some impact on that game. I doubt if our defence would have held out without him.

dublin_dave wrote:rodders reddan and sexton started v aus and were dropped for the quarters.

a brave some may say stupid call.

Wow Dave totally forgot about that. Definitely its a better combo but in fairness Reddan hasn't been in top form lately. Main thing is that Kidney will pick Murray so its not worth debating these days.

so the answer is no then. lets hope saturday changes that.

if murray has been told to clear the ball away from the ruck area quicker and to zip the ball to his fly half i have no issue with his selection. lets hope he has. end of the day he is young (still a bit inconsistent) but him Marshall and Marmion represent the future.

as for your PS he did play well but to say we would have not held out without him is bonkers. he is a scrum half!

Stevie Ferris having a dig at the tabloids on twitter there...anyone know what its about?

dublin_dave wrote:rodders reddan and sexton started v aus and were dropped for the quarters.

a brave some may say stupid call.

eh, Sexton & Reddan were dropped against Italy the following week.

ROG & Murray started against Italy and beat them 36-6 whereas in the 6Ns, Ireland squeezed a win (11-13) due to a drop goal from O'Gara in the 77th minute.

If Irish fans generate this much debate about team selection, I'd hate to see what its like in NZ and SA!

rodders wrote:I'd be delighted with that team prof...where did you hear that rumour?

On another site somewhere. Before the team is officially selected we should check out Gerry Thornleys predicted team. He has inside info (which explains his attitude towards Kidney).

profitius wrote:If Irish fans generate this much debate about team selection, I'd hate to see what its like in NZ and SA!

Why do you think I don't blog on SA websites?

In SA provincialism is very strong, specifically between the Bulls and Western Province/Stormers, it can get rather unpleasant to discuss team selections amongst them, it often descends into immature namecalling and unpleasant anti Bulls/Stormers arguments

The Darcy and Earls center partnership is frightening....for irish fans at least when you consider both these players defensive frailties.

Earls defence is fine. D'Arcy's defence is way better than any other 12 available to Ireland.

Of their last couple of games playing in the centre this is how it has worked out.

Tackles made/tackles missed

D'Arcy 21/4
BOD 24/5
Earls 26/3

They are all much of a muchness when it comes to defence.

Scrumdown wrote:The Darcy and Earls center partnership is frightening....for irish fans at least when you consider both these players defensive frailties.

you might wanna go watch the Clermont v leinster semi last year, if you think Darcy is weak in defence.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:The Darcy and Earls center partnership is frightening....for irish fans at least when you consider both these players defensive frailties.

you might wanna go watch the Clermont v leinster semi last year, if you think Darcy is weak in defence.

Ah yes, because one game is enough to judge a player. Heck, if we're going down that road how about Ireland vs Scotland in the 2010(?) 6 nations. If I recall correctly D'Arcy was made an absolute fool by the great Graeme Morrison in defence. Without the stats in front of me, I think D'Arcy missed 4 one-on-one tackles on him. But, y'know, the semi final vs Clermont obviously proves that he has no defensive weaknesses.

How about against Scotland the next time he played?
D'Arcy missed 1 of 12 tackles attempted (and BOD missed 2 of 10 attempted).