Why the disdain for the Pro12?

First topic message reminder :

Chaps - I know its a bit controversial but try to keep it civil please

Some posters on here show great disdain for the Po12 disparaging it on dubious grounds.  Often without actually watching any / many games

Its a very competitive league with the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more.  Despite no relegation teams fight hard all season.  Many great competative games with some great rivalries building up and regular derby games.

For example rotation of players.  Exeter made 10 changes from the team played in their last league game for the team that played Glasgow in the HC.  I really do not see this supposed "resting" of players in the Pro 12 is any different to the rotation of AP squads.

Pro 12 teams do at least as well ( considered as a league) as do the top 14 or AP in the HC

Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

I enjoy watching top 14 and AP games


Why do some posters make such disparaging comments?  I am genuinely interested in this.  Is it jealousy?  Is it fear?  

Please keep it civil chaps.  Ta

Edit - the top 4 teams in the Pro12 are separated by 6 points, in the AP its 18.  Bottom 4 teams in the Pro 12 separated by 10 points AP 15

Edit again - more try bonus points in the Ap. less losing bonus points - again pointing to a more competative league

TJ wrote:

TJ wrote:Can everyone please ignore Chunky - I have blocked him.  He is creating dissent and argument and preventing decent debate.

Fantastic response. Cant argue with his responses so you block him. Its a different point of view and he isnt being abusive. Its OK to not agree with him but sticking your fingers in your ears while singing 'la la la' every time he posts doesnt exactly show you in a good light.

Lost - he has been abusive. I don't block you despite arguing / debating with you because I you are not consistently negative and abusive . Did you see my post about not blaming the english BTW?

Well you really kicked the debate on there TJ.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Pro 12 is a very good league in my opinion and well run. It is completely fit for purpose which is very important.

It deals with the unique situation of bringing together 4 unions very well and delivers a pretty good product and provides a good platform for developing a strong player base for all of those unions.

The age old arguement that it cant be any good because there is no relegation is so tiresome. The Rabo is set up apropriately for the unique scenarios it is faced with. It isnt always appropriate to have relegation. The NFL works very well without it as do other leagues. you can argue that relagation hampers rugby quality as much as it adds to excitement and meaning of certain matches.

There are plenty of poor matches in all three major NH leagues but given that the Rabo is the youngest of all three leagues and faces bigger challenges than the other leagues both financially and logistically I think the amount of great games in the rabo vs ther other leagues is testament to how good a job in general the organisers do.

There are far more good competitive games in the Aviva Premiership than the pro12.

That sadly is a matter of opinion and can't be proved though.

You hit the nail on the head there. It cant be proved because there isnt any evidence really.

GunsGerms wrote:

You hit the nail on the head there. It cant be proved because there isnt any evidence really.

People have different tastes, naturally. I have seen some real crackers in the Aviva this season. I can't remember the last pro12 match I enjoyed. Scarlets v Ospreys was ok I suppose.

I don't think he has been abusive at all. Trolling with all the negativity for sure. But he is making points in between.

Not a fan of ignore lists myself and don't run one on any forum. I would imagine that discussions would look a bit weird when you can't see all the posts.

Half the problem with trolls are the people who get all outraged and up on their high horses about them.

Learn to laugh people. It's only a forum. No one is threatening your kids or anything.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

You hit the nail on the head there. It cant be proved because there isnt any evidence really.

People have different tastes, naturally. I have seen some real crackers in the Aviva this season. I can't remember the last pro12 match I enjoyed. Scarlets v Ospreys was ok I suppose.

Tune in for any Munster v Leinster match and you will see a game to rival any at least in terms of passion.

GunsGerms wrote:

Tune in for any Munster v Leinster match and you will see a game to rival any at least in terms of passion.

Every match I see has passion. Doesn't mean the rugby is any good. I generally like to tune in for the Munster v Leinster game and as many all Irish games as possible. But outside that fixture and Scarlets v Ospreys, there is nothing to rival the Aviva Prem.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

You hit the nail on the head there. It cant be proved because there isnt any evidence really.

People have different tastes, naturally. I have seen some real crackers in the Aviva this season. I can't remember the last pro12 match I enjoyed. Scarlets v Ospreys was ok I suppose.

Is there any correlation to the fact that Welsh posters tend to be the only ones who give out about the Pro12 (from within) and the fact that their clubs sorry Regions are not union run and want to join the Prem? (I'm presuming you are Welsh)

Racial stereotyping a bit here, but a lot of Welsh posters seem to have a "gloomy" disposition also.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Is there any correlation to the fact that Welsh posters tend to be the only ones who give out about the Pro12 (from within) and the fact that their clubs are not union run and want to join the Prem? (I'm presuming you are Welsh)

Yes. I do however, object to the notion that welsh regional fans only dislike the pro12 because our Union is ultimately shafting us currently.

It is a poor competition because of the reasons I've stated. You probably don't see that if your team comes in the top 3 year after year.

Jenifer - I do ignore trolls.  he just irritated me with this negative trolling and he succeeded in spoiling the debate.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Not neccessarily close.. Just good games of rugby. A better level of absic skills, better organised defences, more skillful players, better backlines, better players, better coached teams etc etc

The Aviva is a very good league to watch. I wish my team was in it.

Skill:

Again there is no evidence that there is a better level of basic skill. I would argue that both the Welsh and Irish international teams have significantly higher skill levels, particularly in the backs than the England team. Probably because there is greater emphasis in the rabo on devloping a variety of skills whereas the AP seems to place emphasis on forward driven rugby which is quite consistent with the national teams strengths over the last 20 years.

Defense:

Also I have seen enough try fests to conclude that defending isnt always great in the AP.

Better players:

Since inception the Rabo has provided 11 indigenous world player of the year nominees and two winners. By contrast the AP has delivered 5 nominees and 1 winner. The evidence suggests the rabo is producing better talent.

Better coaches:
Not sure how you quantify this one but the has been one ex Rabo IRB world coach (Kidney) of the year and one ex premiership (Woodward) world coach of the year.

TJ wrote:Jenifer - I do ignore trolls.  he just irritated me with this negative trolling and he succeeded in spoiling the debate.  

If posters annoy or aggravate you putting them on your block list is fine, but leave it there. No need to request others to do the same etc. And certainly no need to keep bringing it up on this thread now either. Because, and this may just be my opinion, but it doesn't reflect too well on you and does make the thread far easier to read through too.

GunsGerms wrote:

Skill:

Again there is no evidence that there is a better level of basic skill. I would argue that both the Welsh and Irish international teams have significantly higher skill levels, particularly in the backs than the England team.

Why compare international squads? Firstly, there are circa 360 players in each league! not 15.

Secondly, half the welsh players don't play in the pro12. some of them even play in the league you're comparing it to.

Defense:

Also I have seen enough try fests to conclude that defending isnt always great in the AP.

Better players:

Since inception the Rabo has provided 11 indigenous world player of the year nominees and two winners. By contrast the AP has delivered 5 nominees and 1 winner. The evidence suggests the rabo is producing better talent.

World player of the year awards don't equate to a good all round league, especially when you consider the likes of Mike Blair and Tom Croft have been nominees.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Why compare international squads? Firstly, there are circa 360 players in each league! not 15.

Secondly, half the welsh players don't play in the pro12. some of them even play in the league you're comparing it to.

Presumably Lancaster only selects the best players from the AP? Therefore if their skill levels arent on par with their Welsh and Irish counterparts its safe to assume they arent getting the right exposure and possibly coaching in the AP.

Very few of the Welsh players in the AP arent products of the Rabo and didnt establish themselves in the Rabo first.

Chunky Norwich wrote:


World player of the year awards don't equate to a good all round league, especially when you consider the likes of Mike Blair and Tom Croft have been nominees.

Maybe not but they certainly do give a very solid indication as to what league is producing more talented players. There will always be strange selections (Blair), Farrell being another one but for the most part the nominees deserved their selection.

What evidence do you have that the AP produces better players?

GunsGerms wrote:Better coaches:
Not sure how you quantify this one but the has been one ex Rabo IRB world coach (Kidney) of the year and one ex premiership (Woodward) world coach of the year.

You could also argue the amount of coaches who have cut their teeth in the Rabo and then jumped ship to the Jeff, or even championship, leaving us to promote more from within again suggests they have the better coaches. I am thinking of Nigel Davies leaving the Scarlets with Easterby, Di Young leaving the Blues with Baber/Burnell etc.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Yes but I accept that flaw as part of a league which is essential to four countries who don't have the population or demographics to sustain their own individual professional leagues.

The English don't need us and we don't need them so a B&I makes zero sense for anyone.

That's where you're wrong I'm afraid.  There are commercial opportunities out there that would benefit all nations involved. Even Italy if they were accepted into a French setup.

But too many blazer and Union apologists don't want any upheaval. Because they are on a  good thing at the moment.

Actually I agree with you on the Italians joining the French league.

However I do believe that the celtic league concept with the Scots, Welsh and Irish presents the best way forward rather than going cap and hand to the English.

If the Welsh would get their domestic house in order and the Scots could eventually stump up 4 teams we'd have a sustainable and competitive league between 3 similarly resourced tier 1 nation in close geographic proximity.

Once we talk ourselves into the, incorrect, notion that we need to partner up with English, or French, to survive then we have one foot in oblivion and are destined to bow to their tune every time we go to the negotiating table.

The coaches are a given. Look at the standard of welsh regional coaches compared to the aviva. It's almost embarassing.

Might be due to the wru forcign them. But that all drags down the level of the pro12.

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Yes but I accept that flaw as part of a league which is essential to four countries who don't have the population or demographics to sustain their own individual professional leagues.

The English don't need us and we don't need them so a B&I makes zero sense for anyone.

That's where you're wrong I'm afraid.  There are commercial opportunities out there that would benefit all nations involved. Even Italy if they were accepted into a French setup.

But too many blazer and Union apologists don't want any upheaval. Because they are on a  good thing at the moment.

Actually I agree with you on the Italians joining the French league.

However I do believe that the celtic league concept with the Scots, Welsh and Irish presents the best way forward rather than going cap and hand to the English.

If the Welsh would get their domestic house in order and the Scots could eventually stump up 4 teams we'd have a sustainable and competitive league between 3 similarly resourced tier 1 nation in close geographic proximity.

Once we talk ourselves into the, incorrect, notion that we need to partner up with English, or French, to survive then we have one foot in oblivion and are destined to bow to their tune every time we go to the negotiating table.  

Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TJ wrote:Jenifer - I do ignore trolls.  he just irritated me with this negative trolling and he succeeded in spoiling the debate.  

If posters annoy or aggravate you putting them on your block list is fine, but leave it there.  No need to request others to do the same etc.  And certainly no need to keep bringing it up on this thread now either.  Because, and this may just be my opinion, but it doesn't reflect too well on you and does make the thread far easier to read through too.

Fair enough - I was just annoyed 'cos he derailed the thread and I hoped it could be got back on track. I had hoped to get some views from others on the topic posted and did do before it was derailed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

Why?

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

Why?

Mainly because people are getting fed up of paying to watch their 2nd and 3rds lose to Ulster 2nds.

If you measure quality by tries then there isn't much difference in the Rabo, Top 14 and Aviva.

Rabo and Aviva last season had 4 tires per match (526 tries for the season) and Top 14 had 3.6 tries per match.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Racial stereotyping a bit here, but a lot of Welsh posters seem to have a "gloomy" disposition also.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

  

Biltong wrote:If you measure quality by tries then there isn't much difference in the Rabo, Top 14 and Aviva.

Rabo and Aviva last season had 4 tires per match (526 tries for the season) and Top 14 had 3.6 tries per match.

The three leagues are fairly different in terms of structure and they all have their idiosyncraticies but given that I regularly watch all three I can fairly confidently affirm that there isnt much difference between the three.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

Why?

Mainly because people are getting fed up of paying to watch their 2nd and 3rds lose to Ulster 2nds.

But they'd pay to watch their second or thirds lose to Northampton or Bath?

You say the regions aren't successful or competitive but joining what you perceive to be a tougher league is the answer...that is nonsensical.

I put it to you that the regions problems are undermining the competitiveness of the Rabo, not the other way round. The Welsh can only sort their problems from within - jumping leagues is a false economy.

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

Why?

Mainly because people are getting fed up of paying to watch their 2nd and 3rds lose to Ulster 2nds.

But they'd pay to watch their second or thirds lose to Northampton or Bath?

You say the regions aren't successful or competitive but joining what you perceive to be a tougher league is the answer...that is nonsensical.

I put it to you that the regions problems are undermining the competitiveness of the Rabo, not the other way round. The Welsh can only sort their problems from within - jumping leagues is a false economy.

I agree with most of that. However, the regional/union divorce is usually considered part of moving league, but not part of staying put. Hence moving league (and the subsequent split up) may be the panacea we need, as opposed to staying put and being strong-armed into the status quo. But to be honest that is a different argument for a different day.

I simply cannot even begin to fathom how any Welsh rugby fan believes that the interests of their national or domestic game will be better served by partnering up as a junior/minority partner in a foreign league than being administrated and controlled by their own Union.....

So, where are all these derbies during International windows ? Pretty sure the Welsh ones are over Christmas and then AFTER the 6 nations....

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

Why?

Mainly because people are getting fed up of paying to watch their 2nd and 3rds lose to Ulster 2nds.

But they'd pay to watch their second or thirds lose to Northampton or Bath?

You say the regions aren't successful or competitive but joining what you perceive to be a tougher league is the answer...that is nonsensical.

I put it to you that the regions problems are undermining the competitiveness of the Rabo, not the other way round. The Welsh can only sort their problems from within - jumping leagues is a false economy.

The answer to teams playing their 2nds and 3rds is European qualification and relegation. It is having a league with no rewards or penalties that leads teams to not play their best teams.

The other thing that leads to interest from spectators is close matches. The AP salary cap means that the difference between the top and bottom of the AP is smaller than the Pro 12. This can be seen statistically by producing a ratio of the league points of the top 4 and bottom 4 teams in the league. The downside of this system is that the top teams are not a strong as they might otherwise be thus affecting European performance. On balance it is probably worth it to have a more competitive league week in week out.

Exiledinborders wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Then I'm afraid we will always have poor, unsuccesful, uncompetitive welsh regions. Which will spiral downwards and end in no pro rugby in Wales.

Why?

Mainly because people are getting fed up of paying to watch their 2nd and 3rds lose to Ulster 2nds.

But they'd pay to watch their second or thirds lose to Northampton or Bath?

You say the regions aren't successful or competitive but joining what you perceive to be a tougher league is the answer...that is nonsensical.

I put it to you that the regions problems are undermining the competitiveness of the Rabo, not the other way round. The Welsh can only sort their problems from within - jumping leagues is a false economy.

The answer to teams playing their 2nds and 3rds is European qualification and relegation. It is having a league with no rewards or penalties that leads teams to not play their best teams.  

The other thing that leads to interest from spectators is close matches.  The AP salary cap means that the difference between the top and bottom of the AP is smaller than the Pro 12. This can be seen statistically by producing a ratio of the league points of the top 4 and bottom 4 teams in the league.  The downside of this system is that the top teams are not a strong as they might otherwise be thus affecting European performance. On balance it is probably worth it to have a more competitive league week in week out.

I was thinking that another way to look at the leagues is to see what they would be like if you pulled the top 3 teams out (e.g. remove Ireland from the pro12). I know its a bit cheeky but I would guess the remainder of the AP would stack up very well against their neighbors.

exiled - the Rabo does not rotate players any more than the AP but some of the rabo teams have smaller / weaker squads and more internationals so rotation / international callups affect them more

the Rabo this year is more competitive than the AP s I showed early on in this thread with the top teams losing more, the bottom teams winning more and more losing bonus points in the Rabo

Tehre is less difference between the top and bottom of the rabo.

so wrong on all counts there.

Exiledinborders wrote:
The answer to teams playing their 2nds and 3rds is European qualification and relegation. It is having a league with no rewards or penalties that leads teams to not play their best teams.  

The other thing that leads to interest from spectators is close matches.  The AP salary cap means that the difference between the top and bottom of the AP is smaller than the Pro 12. This can be seen statistically by producing a ratio of the league points of the top 4 and bottom 4 teams in the league.  The downside of this system is that the top teams are not a strong as they might otherwise be thus affecting European performance. On balance it is probably worth it to have a more competitive league week in week out.

God again with the relegation, yawn. No rewards, eh? Teams never play their 2nds and 3rds, they often mix 2nd choice players with 1st choice though. If anything that means a stronger overall pool of players. Short term sacrifice for long term gain.

I very much doubt that Rabo salaries are bigger than AP salaries.

Dragons have a pretty small squad and a fair few injuries, if we ever get the luxury of rotating its to prevent more injuries.

We regularly field an all Welsh 15 with the majority of the players being under 25.

munkian wrote:So, where are all these derbies during International windows ? Pretty sure the Welsh ones are over Christmas and then AFTER the 6 nations....

Last season the Ospreys V Blues was on at the back end of November.

rodders wrote:I simply cannot even begin to fathom how any Welsh rugby fan believes that the interests of their national or domestic game will be better served by partnering up as a junior/minority partner in a foreign league than being administrated and controlled by their own Union.....  

It is not so much a union any more than a dictatorship. I think to be honest if you were in the same boat you would feel the same as we do, but it is very hard to explain stuff without getting into the bounds of possible liable about specific people in charge and how the media coverage of things is tainted by possible deals/personal relationships. But there have been enough threads on that stuff.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:So, where are all these derbies during International windows ? Pretty sure the Welsh ones are over Christmas and then AFTER the 6 nations....

Last season the Ospreys V Blues was on at the back end of November.

Well thats daft - but you can't blame the league - blame the WRU for cramming in an extra test match.

The Welsh derbies are mostly at Christmas and Easter, mostly...

GunsGerms wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Not neccessarily close.. Just good games of rugby. A better level of absic skills, better organised defences, more skillful players, better backlines, better players, better coached teams etc etc

The Aviva is a very good league to watch. I wish my team was in it.

Skill:

Again there is no evidence that there is a better level of basic skill. I would argue that both the Welsh and Irish international teams have significantly higher skill levels, particularly in the backs than the England team. Probably because there is greater emphasis in the rabo on devloping a variety of skills whereas the AP seems to place emphasis on forward driven rugby which is quite consistent with the national teams strengths over the last 20 years.

Defense:

Also I have seen enough try fests to conclude that defending isnt always great in the AP.

Better players:

Since inception the Rabo has provided 11 indigenous world player of the year nominees and two winners. By contrast the AP has delivered 5 nominees and 1 winner. The evidence suggests the rabo is producing better talent.

Better coaches:
Not sure how you quantify this one but the has been one ex Rabo IRB world coach (Kidney) of the year and one ex premiership (Woodward) world coach of the year.

Gunsgerms I am sorry but your points don't really make that much sense.

You talk about the Irish for example having higher skill levels than the English but if their international side loses like it has the last two times. It's irrelevant. Skill is very subjective. Skill in what exactly.

Greater emphasis on developing skills? Sorry but that's rubbish. Again it's what skills.

Better players - don't think you can base it on nominations. If for example Italy has one more nomination than England it doesn't mean all their players are better.

Plus not all the best players in the league play international rugby.

E.g. Evans,Brits,Salvi

In terms of better coaches - I think it's very subjective again.

TJ I do find it ironic that you criticise Chunky Norwich when you are generally quite a provocative poster yourself.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:So, where are all these derbies during International windows ? Pretty sure the Welsh ones are over Christmas and then AFTER the 6 nations....

Last season the Ospreys V Blues was on at the back end of November.

Whoever scheduled the Cardiff Blues/Scarlets fixtures needs shooting.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

rodders wrote:I simply cannot even begin to fathom how any Welsh rugby fan believes that the interests of their national or domestic game will be better served by partnering up as a junior/minority partner in a foreign league than being administrated and controlled by their own Union.....  

It is not so much a union any more than a dictatorship.  I think to be honest if you were in the same boat you would feel the same as we do, but it is very hard to explain stuff without getting into the bounds of possible liable about specific people in charge and how the media coverage of things is tainted by possible deals/personal relationships.  But there have been enough threads on that stuff.

And I feel your pain... I wish you guys would sort it out but the point stands that jumping to the Aviva will make things immeasurably worse for Wales and solve none of the underlying issues.

There is also an element of opportunism from the PRL here, who are using the regions problems to strengthen their own position in the European negotiations. I very much doubt the AP want the Welsh teams involved.

beshocked wrote:

Gunsgerms I am sorry but your points don't really make that much sense.

You talk about the Irish for example having higher skill levels than the English but if their international side loses like it has the last two times. It's irrelevant. Skill is very subjective. Skill in what exactly.

Greater emphasis on developing skills? Sorry but that's rubbish. Again it's what skills.

Better players - don't think you can base it on nominations. If for example Italy has one more nomination than England it doesn't mean all their players are better.

Plus not all the best players in the league play international rugby.

E.g. Evans,Brits,Salvi

In terms of better coaches - I think it's very subjective again.

TJ I do find it ironic that you criticise Chunky Norwich when you are generally quite a provocative poster yourself.

I have explained my points fairly clearly and given quite rational reasons for each of my responses to chunky Norwich. Too tired today to elaborate any more as I have just had root canal treatment and my head feels like it is about to implode.

Ireland the last two times? Well if you look at the last time I think you will find the game v NZ was probably the first time in a long time that any team has come close to matching NZ for skill levels. The Aus game is represents Ireland's Jeckyll and Hyde nature in the last few years.

I didnt include Italy's nomination as he isnt a Rabo player.

I am a provocative poster thanks for noticing however, I dont think I criticised Chunky Norwich. Rather just prompted him to give some evidence for some of his claims. Was enjoying the debate. Edit: Sorry you were speaking to TJ

[quote="Chunky Norwich"]The coaches are a given. Look at the standard of welsh regional coaches compared to the aviva. It's almost embarassing.

Might be due to the wru forcign them. But that all drags down the level of the pro12.[/quote]

I do not have a problem with the Pro12 its the best option available.

I think the level of coaching in the Welsh regions lowers the level of the Welsh regions not the others

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:
 
OK, lets break this down
 
A) Local derbies in international windows
B) Local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before games
C) Same old teams getting advantaged in international windows
http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/index.php - could you give examples of the above using this season fixtures ?
 
D) Little chance of fans getting to many away games. Aye, you're probably right there, but how many Bath fans went up (not many looking at the 4, 616 attendance), or how many Exeter fans are going up, to the Falcons ? It's not so much the different countries, it's just distance.

a) this one from last season particularly sticks in the mind. look at the line ups. They are pathetic.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=173507

b) see Ospreys v scarlets this season. date wasn't arranged until 3 and a half weeks before the game. pathetic.

c) Yup. the fixtures are more or less the same every season. That means the Dragons and Connacht for instance, play the same teams in the international window all the time. The teams they play against lose far more players then the Dragons or Connacht. Therefore it's a disadvantage on the same teams year in year out. I think the Scarlets have played away to connacht in the November test window 8 times out of the last 10 seasons.

Joke league.

I noticed this didn't get 1 single comment.

 
Sorry Chunky been in a meeting
 
A) - that's not even this season, so lessons may have been learnt (The Dominoes Derby Series ??). Also that wasn't down to the RABO, it was down to the WRU and it's obsession with the 4th AI. Interesting some derbies in the AVIVA have taken place or are due to take place during International windows (EG - Wasps v Irish and Exeter v Bath on w/e 15/02, Harlequins v Wasps the previous weekend). Not having a pop at the AVIVA, it's just a fact of life in a congested season
 
B) I'm not aware of that, do have any background links. However, all leagues are, to extents, beholden to broadcasters
 
C) Thought I'd check out Connacht v Scarlets, over the last few seasons,
2013-14 – 23 November
2012-13 – 15 September
2011-12 – 11 September
2010-11 – 12 February
2009-10 – 30 October
2008-09 – 9 January
2007-08 – 4 January
2006-07- 15 September
2005-06 – 18 February

Why the distain? Ignorance mainly.


Some of the common things we hear.
- They don't have their strongest team out so they don't take the league seriously.
- They all qualify for the HEC so they don't take the league seriously.
- They have no relegation so they don't take winning seriously.
- They don't care about winning matches so they don't take the league seriously.
- They don't care about the league so they don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.



Now, if you're being fed that sh!te for years you too would start to believe it. Thats why many English fans keep saying it like Parrots on steroids. Ask them to dig a little deeper and think about what they're saying and they're usually lost for words.


Who feeds them the sh!te? The likes of Stephen Jones in the sunday times and many more like him.


So the media are driving this. For instance
- English and French teams rotate their teams while Rabo teams play weakened teams.
- English and French teams have to battle relegation while Rabo teams don't have to.
- English and French players play more per years while Rabo players play less (they then show some stats while forgetting about the international games the Rabo players have to play).


The best of all is this idea: - Rabo unions have an unfair advantage because they don't knacker their players as much! So instead of having proper welfare for players they twist things to say that the Rabo players are cotton wooled (and thats arguable too)! Its great propaganda.


PS I'm not having a go at ALL English people. Some English and a large portion of Welsh too are at it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:So, where are all these derbies during International windows ? Pretty sure the Welsh ones are over Christmas and then AFTER the 6 nations....

Last season the Ospreys V Blues was on at the back end of November.

Whoever scheduled the Cardiff Blues/Scarlets fixtures needs shooting.

Why? It works out interesting from a Scarlets point of view. Judgement Day V Blues, followed by Dragons at home, followed by Blues at home, and then play-off semi-final.

Should be a few extra bums on seats in the final few weekends.

Judgement day is w*nk - why should we lose home advantage ? Its one of our main weapons as we have a proper rugby ground not an empty plastic stadium.

And on scheduling, the whole thing in the NH is fupped - aren't England having to send out a 3rd string team against the All Blacks as one of the tests clashes with the Jeff final ?

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Gunsgerms I am sorry but your points don't really make that much sense.

You talk about the Irish for example having higher skill levels than the English but if their international side loses like it has the last two times. It's irrelevant. Skill is very subjective. Skill in what exactly.

Greater emphasis on developing skills? Sorry but that's rubbish. Again it's what skills.

Better players - don't think you can base it on nominations. If for example Italy has one more nomination than England it doesn't mean all their players are better.

Plus not all the best players in the league play international rugby.

E.g. Evans,Brits,Salvi

In terms of better coaches - I think it's very subjective again.

TJ I do find it ironic that you criticise Chunky Norwich when you are generally quite a provocative poster yourself.

I have explained my points fairly clearly and given quite rational reasons for each of my responses to chunky Norwich. Too tired today to elaborate any more as I have just had root canal treatment and my head feels like it is about to implode.

Ireland the last two times? Well if you look at the last time I think you will find the game v NZ was probably the first time in a long time that any team has come close to matching NZ for skill levels. The Aus game is represents Ireland's Jeckyll and Hyde nature in the last few years.

I didnt include Italy's nomination as he isnt a Rabo player.

I am a provocative poster thanks for noticing however, I dont think I criticised Chunky Norwich. Rather just prompted him to give some evidence for some of his claims. Was enjoying the debate. Edit: Sorry you were speaking to TJ

England have actually beaten NZ and ran them quite close this time round so surely we showed more skills than Ireland.  

I think the definition of skill is quite vague. I am sure Australia would say they have more skills than England yet they lost in their last match.

Surely if Sexton's skill at kicking was higher then Ireland would have beaten NZ.  

Gunsgerms I don't think you're a provocative poster. I would call myself that.

Oh and it's not surprising that there are more international nominees when you compare 4 countries vs 1. That's 4 times as many players.

profitius wrote:Why the distain? Ignorance mainly.


Some of the common things we hear.
- They don't have their strongest team out so they don't take the league seriously.
- They all qualify for the HEC so they don't take the league seriously.
- They have no relegation so they don't take winning seriously.
- They don't care about winning matches so they don't take the league seriously.
- They don't care about the league so they don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.
- .........................................................don't take it seriously.



Now, if you're being fed that sh!te for years you too would start to believe it. Thats why many English fans keep saying it like Parrots on steroids. Ask them to dig a little deeper and think about what they're saying and they're usually lost for words.


Who feeds them the sh!te? The likes of Stephen Jones in the sunday times and many more like him.


So the media are driving this. For instance
- English and French teams rotate their teams while Rabo teams play weakened teams.
- English and French teams have to battle relegation while Rabo teams don't have to.
- English and French players play more per years while Rabo players play less (they then show some stats while forgetting about the international games the Rabo players have to play).


The best of all is this idea: - Rabo unions have an unfair advantage because they don't knacker their players as much! So instead of having proper welfare for players they twist things to say that the Rabo players are cotton wooled (and thats arguable too)! Its great propaganda.


PS I'm not having a go at ALL English people. Some English and a large portion of Welsh too are at it.

So which of the above are you disputing are true?

It may be to the benefit of the national side / hc teams ( i mean look at the way Wales dominate europe) but it is at the detriment of the league, and thats what we are talking about here.

The point about internationals I really dont get ... are you saying the english players dont play as many tests? Or that the IRFU didnt enforce a long rest of players after the world cup?
Again it may be in the long term interests of those indivduals but the league suffers.

Are you suggesting that relegation doesnt exist in the t14 and Jeff? Did Stephen Jones invent this?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Whoever scheduled the Cardiff Blues/Scarlets fixtures needs shooting.

Why?  It works out interesting from a Scarlets point of view.  Judgement Day V Blues, followed by Dragons at home, followed by Blues at home, and then play-off semi-final.

Should be a few extra bums on seats in the final few weekends.

Hardly good planning is it playing Cardiff Blues twice in the last 3 games of the season.

Exiledinborders wrote:
The other thing that leads to interest from spectators is close matches.  The AP salary cap means that the difference between the top and bottom of the AP is smaller than the Pro 12. This can be seen statistically by producing a ratio of the league points of the top 4 and bottom 4 teams in the league.  The downside of this system is that the top teams are not a strong as they might otherwise be thus affecting European performance. On balance it is probably worth it to have a more competitive league week in week out.

Worcester and Newcastle are certainly very competitive...