Why the disdain for the Pro12?

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 10:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Chaps - I know its a bit controversial but try to keep it civil please

Some posters on here show great disdain for the Po12 disparaging it on dubious grounds. Often without actually watching any / many games

Its a very competitive league with the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more. Despite no relegation teams fight hard all season. Many great competative games with some great rivalries building up and regular derby games.

For example rotation of players. Exeter made 10 changes from the team played in their last league game for the team that played Glasgow in the HC. I really do not see this supposed "resting" of players in the Pro 12 is any different to the rotation of AP squads.

Pro 12 teams do at least as well ( considered as a league) as do the top 14 or AP in the HC

Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

I enjoy watching top 14 and AP games

Why do some posters make such disparaging comments? I am genuinely interested in this. Is it jealousy? Is it fear?

Please keep it civil chaps. Ta

Edit - the top 4 teams in the Pro12 are separated by 6 points, in the AP its 18. Bottom 4 teams in the Pro 12 separated by 10 points AP 15

Edit again - more try bonus points in the Ap. less losing bonus points - again pointing to a more competative league

by lostinwales Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:16 pm

munkian wrote:Judgement day is w*nk - why should we lose home advantage ? Its one of our main weapons as we have a proper rugby ground not an empty plastic stadium.

And on scheduling, the whole thing in the NH is fupped - aren't England having to send out a 3rd string team against the All Blacks as one of the tests clashes with the Jeff final ?

That is indeed the case but from what has been posted here that is as much to do with IRB windows and their interpretation and NZ intransigence as anything to do with Jeff admin.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:20 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:

Whoever scheduled the Cardiff Blues/Scarlets fixtures needs shooting.

Why? It works out interesting from a Scarlets point of view. Judgement Day V Blues, followed by Dragons at home, followed by Blues at home, and then play-off semi-final.

Should be a few extra bums on seats in the final few weekends.

Hardly good planning is it playing Cardiff Blues twice in the last 3 games of the season.

No pretty poor planning, especially if we had our win over you already (either home or away) then we would be sitting safely away from you and a few points above the dragons right now.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:31 pm

GunsGerms wrote:

What evidence do you have that the AP produces better players?

I don't believe I said the aviva PRODUCED better players. My point is that the squads have, on average a better group of players. So for a November test window game you will get stronger squads turning out for Aviva fixtures than pro12 fixtures.

Also, generally you have less players from each team being called up to international squads, so the aviva is less affected and has stronger squads as a result.

by Mickado Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:33 pm

Thought I'd take a look at all of the Pro12 teams that have qualified for the knockout stages of the HC over the past 8 years (the period of Irish dominance in the HC and a decent sample size) and look at how many of the teams which made the knockouts would have qualified based on league position (i.e. inside the top 6, regardless of nationality, same way it's done in the AP).

Here are all of the teams that made the knockouts and where they finished in the league that year.

2012/2013 - Ulster(1), Munster (6)
2011/2012 - Leinster (1), Munster (3), Ulster (6), Edinburgh (11)
2010/2011 - Leinster (2), Ulster (3)
2009/2010 - Leinster (1), Ospreys (2), Munster (4)
2008/2009 - Munster (1), Leinster (3), Ospreys (4), Cardiff (6)
2007/2008 - Munster (3)
2006/2007 - Leinster (3), Scarlets (4), Munster (6)
2005/2006 - Leinster (2), Munster (3)

So with the exception of Edinburgh in 2011/12 not one of the Rabo teams has every abandoned the league to concentrate on Europe, as all teams would have qualified for Europe by merit the following year anyway.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:33 pm

rodders wrote:
But they'd pay to watch their second or thirds lose to Northampton or Bath?

You say the regions aren't successful or competitive but joining what you perceive to be a tougher league is the answer...that is nonsensical.

I put it to you that the regions problems are undermining the competitiveness of the Rabo, not the other way round. The Welsh can only sort their problems from within - jumping leagues is a false economy.

They'd (hopefully) be free to earn more money and buy better players.

by Guest Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:44 pm

I have never bought the argument that because someone else is bigger - in this case France that as a smaller nation you cannot compete. The Union pr machine would have you believe this is the case but there are numerous examples in professional sport that disprove this notion. Whatever the strengths of the R12 -how long have they got to get up to speed?

The R12 must get itself on approaching an equal financial footing with the AP and T14. For all the arguments about skill levels, opportunities for youngsters etc the fact remains they are reliant on the other two leagues to generate some vital funding - unpalatable maybe but also currently undeniable. The interest in these elite teams is not generating enough interest quick enough.

The AP in 2007 fell into that trap when attempting to negotiate with the ERC and have not made the same mistake twice by negotiating the domestic deal with BT and if not careful the R12 will sadly get left behind and the Unions will blame everyone but themselves.

Meanwhile the club game both in Wales and Scotland is shrinking - not good.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:44 pm

PenfroPete wrote:

A) - that's not even this season, so lessons may have been learnt (The Dominoes Derby Series ??). Also that wasn't down to the RABO, it was down to the WRU and it's obsession with the 4th AI. Interesting some derbies in the AVIVA have taken place or are due to take place during International windows (EG - Wasps v Irish and Exeter v Bath on w/e 15/02, Harlequins v Wasps the previous weekend). Not having a pop at the AVIVA, it's just a fact of life in a congested season

Hopefully it won't happen again then. But I wouldn't be surprised.

B) I'm not aware of that, do have any background links. However, all leagues are, to extents, beholden to broadcasters

Well you're aware of it now. It might occur in other leagues too. I'm just stating that I find it unacceptable.

C) Thought I'd check out Connacht v Scarlets, over the last few seasons,
2013-14 – 23 November
2012-13 – 15 September
2011-12 – 11 September
2010-11 – 12 February
2009-10 – 30 October
2008-09 – 9 January
2007-08 – 4 January
2006-07- 15 September
2005-06 – 18 February

Every season we play Connacht in a test window. Where they have hardly any players missing. Check it out.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:46 pm

Has anybody even brought up the amount of money each Union generates to put in the central Pro12 pot via secondary television rights?

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

Also, do some people not realise the seriousness of the new French deal?

355m Euros for their clubs, and some narrow midned people want to continue with the urine poor Rabo?

Time for a British and Irish League before it's too late.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:54 pm

150+ posts in five hours and the tumbrils* are clogging the A606.
* http://www.google.com/search?num=50&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=tumbrils+definition&oq=tumbril&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l6j0i10j0.2508.7904.0.18224.7.7.0.0.0.0.174.695.5j2.7.0....0...1c.1.32.hp..0.7.690.9k_KegSyDC8

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:56 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:
But they'd pay to watch their second or thirds lose to Northampton or Bath?

You say the regions aren't successful or competitive but joining what you perceive to be a tougher league is the answer...that is nonsensical.

I put it to you that the regions problems are undermining the competitiveness of the Rabo, not the other way round. The Welsh can only sort their problems from within - jumping leagues is a false economy.

They'd (hopefully) be free to earn more money and buy better players.

In what way would they be free to earn more than they are now?

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:58 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFuUaCe8eY

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:10 pm

rodders wrote:

In what way would they be free to earn more than they are now?

The Welsh regions want to be able to negotiate their own tv and competition deals. Y'know, like the English do. They claim they have already negotiated a deal that would mean more £££ than the competition they currently play in.

Imagine that. Private businesses beign allowed to try and maximise their income.

by R!skysports Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:18 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

In what way would they be free to earn more than they are now?

The Welsh regions want to be able to negotiate their own tv and competition deals. Y'know, like the English do. They claim they have already negotiated a deal that would mean more £££ than the competition they currently play in.

Imagine that. Private businesses beign allowed to try and maximise their income.

Chunky -do you hate the Pro12 because you currently hate the Welsh regions and Union and think that it is the Pro12's fault - your posts seem to imply that

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:20 pm

Riskysports wrote:
Chunky -do you hate the Pro12 because you currently hate the Welsh regions and Union and think that it is the Pro12's fault - your posts seem to imply that

Read the thread.

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:24 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

In what way would they be free to earn more than they are now?

The Welsh regions want to be able to negotiate their own tv and competition deals. Y'know, like the English do. They claim they have already negotiated a deal that would mean more £££ than the competition they currently play in.

Imagine that. Private businesses beign allowed to try and maximise their income.

They claim to have negotiated their own TV deal for the AP, which the PRL hold rights to and have already sold to BT, and which they haven't actually joined because they require the IRB to sanction it?

by PenfroPete Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:26 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:

B) I'm not aware of that, do have any background links. However, all leagues are, to extents, beholden to broadcasters

Well you're aware of it now. It might occur in other leagues too. I'm just stating that I find it unacceptable.

C) Thought I'd check out Connacht v Scarlets, over the last few seasons,
2013-14 – 23 November
2012-13 – 15 September
2011-12 – 11 September
2010-11 – 12 February
2009-10 – 30 October
2008-09 – 9 January
2007-08 – 4 January
2006-07- 15 September
2005-06 – 18 February

Every season we play Connacht in a test window. Where they have hardly any players missing. Check it out.

B) Sorry Chunky all I have is you stating it. Do you have LINKS. Also, if it happens in other leagues why single out the RABO ?

C) I have 'Checked out' your initial popint "Therefore it's a disadvantage on the same teams year in year out. I think the Scarlets have played away to Connacht in the November test window 8 times out of the last 10 seasons" It doesn't stand up I'm afraid.
You're now stating "Every season we play Connacht in a test window".

by R!skysports Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:05 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
Chunky -do you hate the Pro12 because you currently hate the Welsh regions and Union and think that it is the Pro12's fault - your posts seem to imply that

Read the thread.

I have, but all you seem to say is your opinion that the Pro 12 is worst in every way - rather than any facts

It does read that you are taking your frustration at the Welsh mess on the Pro12, with the AP being the shinning light that will solve all the problems

Anyway, just my Opinion

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:33 pm

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

In what way would they be free to earn more than they are now?

The Welsh regions want to be able to negotiate their own tv and competition deals. Y'know, like the English do. They claim they have already negotiated a deal that would mean more £££ than the competition they currently play in.

Imagine that. Private businesses beign allowed to try and maximise their income.

They claim to have negotiated their own TV deal for the AP, which the PRL hold rights to and have already sold to BT, and which they haven't actually joined because they require the IRB to sanction it?

By "irb" you mean the guy who is payed by the ERC?

The money is for cross border ( and a wanglo league would be) competition involving English clubs.
They have negotiated a deal with the prl for a slice of that.
Prl have also offered a slice for a competition with the same make up as the hc, just without the expense if paying the French guy who runs that and who is using his position in the irb to block it. Those with payed Positions in the wru who also take money from the existing hc also for some reason seem to believe the lower income to the regions from the existing deal is better for them.

It's almost as if people run these organisations for their own benefit. As we know its only private clubs that would do that though.

by nathan Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:37 pm

TJ wrote:Zebre to me showed one of the advantages of a ringfenced league. A new team last year and got cuffed but were able to build for this year as no relegation. This year they have been competitive.

as an example you could use Quins or Northampton as an example of a non ringfenced league.

by Metal Tiger Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:47 pm

Are there any AP posters in this debate?

All I can see at the moment is Irish & Welsh fans arguing and 1 scot using the debate to continue his personal crusade against the PRL.

by Metal Tiger Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:48 pm

Awww jeez. Just seen the posts from Rec & Beshocked. Guess there are some Avivas in the middle of this Rabo love in.

by Metal Tiger Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:52 pm

PS. I like watching the Pro12... particularly Embra as I have family up there (so not happy that the Weegies won that Derby game.)

Its always good to watch future T14 & AP players developing. Run

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:54 pm

PenfroPete wrote:

B) Sorry Chunky all I have is you stating it. Do you have LINKS. Also, if it happens in other leagues why single out the RABO ?

I have no idea if it happens in other leagues. Why would I have a link to when it was announced? Any other Scarlet or osprey fan will confirm that it wasn't announced until early December.

C) I have 'Checked out' your initial popint "Therefore it's a disadvantage on the same teams year in year out. I think the Scarlets have played away to Connacht in the November test window 8 times out of the last 10 seasons" It doesn't stand up I'm afraid.
You're now stating "Every season we play Connacht in a test window".

Apologies,I shouldnt' have stated the "away" bit. It's a shocking stat. In a shocking league.

by quinsforever Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:55 pm

cant be bothered to read this whole thread. just thought it was interesting to compare the monetary "value" to broadcasters of the 3 leagues in light of the new top14 deal:

top14 - EUR350+million over 5 years (cE71m per annum)
Aviva - £152m over 4 years (38m per annum)
Rabo - anyone know what the new deal is worth?

this is no reason for disdain, it just a recognition of the bigger commercial structure of AP and top14. bigger populations and more compelling competition = much bigger TV deals.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:55 pm

Riskysports wrote:

I have, but all you seem to say is your opinion that the Pro 12 is worst in every way - rather than any facts

It does read that you are taking your frustration at the Welsh mess on the Pro12, with the AP being the shinning light that will solve all the problems

Anyway, just my Opinion

I've already stated that this isn't the case. So you obviously haven't read the thread.

by HammerofThunor Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:58 pm

Supposedly the non-sky stuff is about £5M a year, and Sky is about £5.5M. Although as I understand it the BBC etc haven't signed up yet. Don't know if these values are what were talked about or what they were paying before. So about £10M a year.

Quins, the AP one you have includes Europe. The premiership only side seems like it might be worth about £100M over 4 years, so £25M a year.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:59 pm

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

In what way would they be free to earn more than they are now?

The Welsh regions want to be able to negotiate their own tv and competition deals. Y'know, like the English do. They claim they have already negotiated a deal that would mean more £££ than the competition they currently play in.

Imagine that. Private businesses beign allowed to try and maximise their income.

They claim to have negotiated their own TV deal for the AP, which the PRL hold rights to and have already sold to BT, and which they haven't actually joined because they require the IRB to sanction it?

Yes. It will probably never happen. You've largely missed the point.

The point is......they had a go at negotiating, (which they've previously not been allowed to do) and hey presto they came up with a potential deal that is far better than anything Lewis has managed to get for them. (Because he's trying to kill them off as businesses)

This shows that they could make a real go of things if given the chance.

by PenfroPete Wed 15 Jan 2014, 6:10 pm

CHUNKY
"You're now stating "Every season we play Connacht in a test window".

I believe you stated you had a season ticket and watch Cardiff Blues ? So I've taken it the "We" to be the Blues. So, I've highlighted games in International Windows - not quite every year

CONNACHT v BLUES and BLUES v CONNACHT

2013-14 – 2/3/4 May and 13 September
Autumn Series 9 November to 30 November
6 NATIONS 1 February to 15 March

2012-13 – 1 September and 22 February
Autumn Series 10 November to 1 December
6 NATIONS 2 February to 16 March

2011-12 – 29 October and 10 February
RWC Year – 9 September – 23 October
6 NATIONS 4 February to 19 March

2010-11 – 15 April and 30 September
Autumn Series 6 November to 27 November
6 NATIONS 1 February to 15 March

2009-10 – 18 September and 6 December
Autumn Series 7 November to 28 November
6 NATIONS 6 February to 20 March

2008-09 – 6 March and 26 September
Autumn Series 8 November to 29 November
6 NATIONS 8 February to 14 March

2007-08 – 2 May and 12 October
RWC Year – 7 September – 20 October
6 NATIONS 2 February to 15 March

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 6:11 pm

PenfroPete wrote:CHUNKY
"You're now stating "Every season we play Connacht in a test window".

I believe you stated you had a season ticket and watch Cardiff Blues ? So I've taken it the "We" to be the Blues. So, I've highlighted games in International Windows - not quite every year

CONNACHT v BLUES and BLUES v CONNACHT

2013-14 – 2/3/4 May and 13 September
Autumn Series 9 November to 30 November
6 NATIONS 1 February to 15 March

2012-13 – 1 September and 22 February
Autumn Series 10 November to 1 December
6 NATIONS 2 February to 16 March

2011-12 – 29 October and 10 February
RWC Year – 9 September – 23 October
6 NATIONS 4 February to 19 March

2010-11 – 15 April and 30 September
Autumn Series 6 November to 27 November
6 NATIONS 1 February to 15 March

2009-10 – 18 September and 6 December
Autumn Series 7 November to 28 November
6 NATIONS 6 February to 20 March

2008-09 – 6 March and 26 September
Autumn Series 8 November to 29 November
6 NATIONS 8 February to 14 March

2007-08 – 2 May and 12 October
RWC Year – 7 September – 20 October
6 NATIONS 2 February to 15 March

Scarlets. Check the fixtures again.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 15 Jan 2014, 6:20 pm

PenfroPete, the Ospreys vScarlets match date and ko times were announced pretty late, and quite near the game. Not too sure if the groundshare was part of the problem mind. But at the start of the season it is similar too, fixture wkends are announced, but the actual date and ko times tend to be released only two or three weeks before round one. Its a real pet hate for travelling supporters.

by Breadvan Wed 15 Jan 2014, 6:34 pm

rodders wrote:The disdain for the Heino came when Leinster started to dominate the HEC. There were two watershed moments - Leinster overturning Northampton in the Final and then Ulster hammering the Tigers at Ravenhill two seasons ago.

The big English clubs couldn't accept being humbled at the hands of the Irish so had to clammer for excuses at why they were so far off the pace, so the RABO became the scapegoat.

The Welsh don't like it because they hate their regions and the refs always favour the Irish but that's a different story.

Talking sh1te there Rodders tbf. Leinster and Ulster were already good big strong sides by then and everyone knew and gave due praise.
I think its down to perception. The pro12 hasnt the same exposure by the broadcasters. Attendances suffering in Wales and Scotland and all ppl see is half empty stadia. It also not helped by the IRFU deal with how much game time their international players get at the provinces, alongside the fact that apart from the Ospreys, it doesn't seem that the Scarlets, Blues, Dragons ever seem to play their Welsh stars. I may be wrong tho...

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 15 Jan 2014, 7:04 pm

quinsforever wrote:cant be bothered to read this whole thread. just thought it was interesting to compare the monetary "value" to broadcasters of the 3 leagues in light of the new top14 deal:

top14 - EUR350+million over 5 years (cE71m per annum)
Aviva - £152m over 4 years (38m per annum)
Rabo - anyone know what the new deal is worth?

this is no reason for disdain, it just a recognition of the bigger commercial structure of AP and top14. bigger populations and more compelling competition = much bigger TV deals.

A valid point of view. I'd counter a little by saying the quality of the opposition you play also plays a large part to the viewing figures. The R12 suffers here because Leinster play say Zebre or away in Edinburgh (on a terrible pitch) and the quality of game is dross (I do admit that). But on the our population-our money argument that has holes in it too. A match between England vs NZ will have more viewers than say England vs Georgia. NZ is a far more lucrative fixture. I wonder do the IRFU stay with the SRU/FIR/WRU throughout this as within the R12 they potentially have 3 of the more lucrative fixtures.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 15 Jan 2014, 7:39 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
quinsforever wrote:cant be bothered to read this whole thread. just thought it was interesting to compare the monetary "value" to broadcasters of the 3 leagues in light of the new top14 deal:

top14 - EUR350+million over 5 years (cE71m per annum)
Aviva - £152m over 4 years (38m per annum)
Rabo - anyone know what the new deal is worth?

this is no reason for disdain, it just a recognition of the bigger commercial structure of AP and top14. bigger populations and more compelling competition = much bigger TV deals.

A valid point of view. I'd counter a little by saying the quality of the opposition you play also plays a large part to the viewing figures. The R12 suffers here because Leinster play say Zebre or away in Edinburgh (on a terrible pitch) and the quality of game is dross (I do admit that). But on the our population-our money argument that has holes in it too. A match between England vs NZ will have more viewers than say England vs Georgia. NZ is a far more lucrative fixture. I wonder do the IRFU stay with the SRU/FIR/WRU throughout this as within the R12 they potentially have 3 of the more lucrative fixtures.

*Refuses to make jokes about tight Scotlanders*

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 8:26 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:Are there any AP posters in this debate?

All I can see at the moment is Irish & Welsh fans arguing and 1 scot using the debate to continue his personal crusade against the PRL.

I hope that wasn't aimed at me. Its not my intent. My intent was no more or less than to explore why the Pro 12 gets treated with disdain by some fans.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 15 Jan 2014, 9:12 pm

Once upon a time, when asked what his main target was for the forthcoming Pro12 campaign at the first game of the season, the Cardiff Blues coached answerred; achieving HEC qualification ie finishing above the Drags in other words.
Take from that what you will.

by quinsforever Wed 15 Jan 2014, 10:15 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Supposedly the non-sky stuff is about £5M a year, and Sky is about £5.5M. Although as I understand it the BBC etc haven't signed up yet. Don't know if these values are what were talked about or what they were paying before. So about £10M a year.

Quins, the AP one you have includes Europe. The premiership only side seems like it might be worth about £100M over 4 years, so £25M a year.

furry muff. but if the premiership is worth £25 per year, £12.5m per year for european games doesnt seem to be any different from what the AP teams currently get? (i thought the latest was 26% of EUR 55M or thereabouts?)

by Feckless Rogue Wed 15 Jan 2014, 10:24 pm

First of all it's all part of the traditional rivalry between England and their UK and Irish buddies. We like to point out all their faults. They like to point out ours. We all like to think we're superior.

Secondly, people like being disdainful towards other peoples stuff and telling themselves that their stuff is better. I've often heard Rabo fans talk disdainfully of the attritional pack dominated rugby culture which lacks creativity in England and France. And the tendency to buy in talent rather than produce it.

Thirdly the Rabo is different from the other two for lots of reasons we've discussed before. And people who want to think the Rabo is rubbish will search out all evidence to support their belief and ignore any that contradicts it. Same as some Rabo fans do regarding the AP. It's human nature to convince yourself of these things.

I love the Rabo. But then again I'm lucky enough to support the greatest team in the universe, and they'd be good to watch anywhere against anyone.

by HammerofThunor Wed 15 Jan 2014, 10:48 pm

quinsforever wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Supposedly the non-sky stuff is about £5M a year, and Sky is about £5.5M. Although as I understand it the BBC etc haven't signed up yet. Don't know if these values are what were talked about or what they were paying before. So about £10M a year.

Quins, the AP one you have includes Europe. The premiership only side seems like it might be worth about £100M over 4 years, so £25M a year.
furry muff. but if the premiership is worth £25 per year, £12.5m per year for european games doesnt seem to be any different from what the AP teams currently get? (i thought the latest was 26% of EUR 55M or thereabouts?)

£100M for AP leaves £52M for Europe over 3 years (shorter deal). That's £17M. The PRL have suggested that the French, Pro12, finals, sponsorship, etc should at least triple this so the AP sides would take how £17M+ or about £1.5M each (currently it's about £800k I think). So the English teams would take home about double from Europe and about 50% more for domestic...I think. None of the numbers have been officially released I don't think.

Pre-post edit: just looked at the RRW statement calling for a review into WRU and they said the AP is getting £22M per year so...that would be £88M over 4 years...leaving £64M for Europe over 3 years or £21M a season. So...don't know.

by Metal Tiger Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:17 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:First of all it's all part of the traditional rivalry between England and their UK and Irish buddies. We like to point out all their faults. They like to point out ours. We all like to think we're superior.

Secondly, people like being disdainful towards other peoples stuff and telling themselves that their stuff is better. I've often heard Rabo fans talk disdainfully of the attritional pack dominated rugby culture which lacks creativity in England and France. And the tendency to buy in talent rather than produce it.

Thirdly the Rabo is different from the other two for lots of reasons we've discussed before. And people who want to think the Rabo is rubbish will search out all evidence to support their belief and ignore any that contradicts it. Same as some Rabo fans do regarding the AP. It's human nature to convince yourself of these things.

I love the Rabo. But then again I'm lucky enough to support the greatest team in the universe, and they'd be good to watch anywhere against anyone.

A sensible & well balanced response.

Absolutely no place for it in this debate.

Mods... do your duty!!

by Metal Tiger Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:25 pm

TJ wrote:
Metal Tiger wrote:Are there any AP posters in this debate?

All I can see at the moment is Irish & Welsh fans arguing and 1 scot using the debate to continue his personal crusade against the PRL.

I hope that wasn't aimed at me. Its not my intent. My intent was no more or less than to explore why the Pro 12 gets treated with disdain by some fans.

Now why would you think I meant you?

You didn't bring up the PRL during this Pro12 discussion did you?

by Scrumpy Thu 16 Jan 2014, 10:39 am

The Pro12?

Is that the French 2nd division that provides players for the Top14? Wink

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 16 Jan 2014, 10:47 am

Scrumpy wrote:The Pro12?

Is that the French 2nd division that provides players for the Top14?

No that's the bit that wants to join up with it's lords and masters over the border and leave the Pro12. Wink

by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Jan 2014, 10:54 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:The Pro12?

Is that the French 2nd division that provides players for the Top14?

No that's the bit that wants to join up with it's lords and masters over the border and leave the Pro12.

Yes please.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 16 Jan 2014, 10:56 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:The Pro12?

Is that the French 2nd division that provides players for the Top14?

No that's the bit that wants to join up with it's lords and masters over the border and leave the Pro12.

Ah, I see. So given the stories around SOB and Heaslip and players like Sexton leaving, have Leinster finally seen the light and come to plead forgiveness too? Run

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 16 Jan 2014, 11:02 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:The Pro12?

Is that the French 2nd division that provides players for the Top14?

No that's the bit that wants to join up with it's lords and masters over the border and leave the Pro12.

Ah, I see. So given the stories around SOB and Heaslip and players like Sexton leaving, have Leinster finally seen the light and come to plead forgiveness too?

The same SOB who just signed a 2 year central contract?

by GunsGerms Thu 16 Jan 2014, 11:02 am

He did???????????????????????????????? WTF. Are you sure?

by ChequeredJersey Thu 16 Jan 2014, 11:06 am

So he has, just an hour ago. Apologies. But the rumours and the trend is still there so just be careful before you try and make it seem like only Wales have this issue

by GunsGerms Thu 16 Jan 2014, 11:06 am

Great news.

by Guest Thu 16 Jan 2014, 11:34 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:So he has, just an hour ago. Apologies. But the rumours and the trend is still there so just be careful before you try and make it seem like only Wales have this issue

Keep your fingers crossed, CJ. There's still a chance we might lose Heaslip to the French yet. A chance, unlike Flood who is definitely Toulouse bound....

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