Why the disdain for the Pro12?

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 10:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Chaps - I know its a bit controversial but try to keep it civil please

Some posters on here show great disdain for the Po12 disparaging it on dubious grounds. Often without actually watching any / many games

Its a very competitive league with the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more. Despite no relegation teams fight hard all season. Many great competative games with some great rivalries building up and regular derby games.

For example rotation of players. Exeter made 10 changes from the team played in their last league game for the team that played Glasgow in the HC. I really do not see this supposed "resting" of players in the Pro 12 is any different to the rotation of AP squads.

Pro 12 teams do at least as well ( considered as a league) as do the top 14 or AP in the HC

Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

I enjoy watching top 14 and AP games

Why do some posters make such disparaging comments? I am genuinely interested in this. Is it jealousy? Is it fear?

Please keep it civil chaps. Ta

Edit - the top 4 teams in the Pro12 are separated by 6 points, in the AP its 18. Bottom 4 teams in the Pro 12 separated by 10 points AP 15

Edit again - more try bonus points in the Ap. less losing bonus points - again pointing to a more competative league

by Standulstermen Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:34 am

Recwatcher wrote:The Pro12 cannot be considered a joke as it has the players from in theory four test sides but for all the strength of attendances at the irish provinces, the rest remain despite improvement too low to be sustainable and hence the reliance on euro competition. That model has to be changed but the time horizon keeps being put off.
The window of opportunity is closing. The French league tv deal of one hundred million euro a year is the start. Any bets the AP won't start a bidding war been Sky and BT next time for something comparable ?

They won't get anything comparable because the same audience isn't there. But you are right in theory. That's why any future European comps should be open to tender and not tied down to a broadcaster. It's also one of the reasons I have repeatedly said (from a Celtic perspective) that a euro comp without the French teams is preferable to one without the English IMO.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:34 am

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
It's a joke league because the differences in protocol, player release time, distance, squad depth, and union support between the teams is so vast.

These are the challenges of playing in a cross border competition, its the same for the Heino or whatever plan the PRL have in mind be it the RCC, or anglo- welsh or anglo French league.

We either acknowledge this and move forward or we scrap the notion of multi country competitions in Europe.

At the end of the day every team has 15 players on the field and play under the same rules so that's as even as you are ever going to get in sport.

How naiive. I'd love to be able to think of ti as simplistically as that.

by geoff998rugby Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:37 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote: The Pro12 has a host of issues:

Teams are often understrength. Yes this affects all leagues but the Pro12 more than others.

Often wheeled out but never proven by fact.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It lacks real rivalries

You are joking Munster - Leinster - Uslter matches, Osreys - Scarlets - Cardiff matches

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Most teams lack support, especially on the road. Attendances outside Ireland are poor as are TV audiences.

Its a newer league but support is growing year on year, including the current one.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Teams tend to coast through the league. With no relegation, most teams guaranteed a spot in the HC and the playoffs meaning you only have to hit the top 4 the intensity and drive just isnt there.

You need to watch more games coasting is not an appropriate adjective

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Many Welsh still havent got over the whole regions thing

Agree with that

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The Italians are a joke

The Italians are new and need to develop their game.
There was a time the French were a joke and look at them now.
The Italians are the sleeping giant of European rugby

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:37 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The pro12 is a woeful "competition". Local derbies in international windows,.

That is absolutel cr.ap

There is not one match in this year fixtures in November, February and early March between 2 teams from the same country

If you are going to have a dig try using facts not fiction.

He has a chip on his shoulder about Wales playing an International outside the international window. Which is of course the Pro12's fault.

It is like a teenager who cannot figure out how to use something and rather than putting effort into learning about it just says "that's focking stupid" or "that's a joke".

There are obvious issues with having a cross border league between different unions with different relationships with their clubs/provinces/regions.

The Pro12 has issues for sure. But it has also come a long way in a short time. People can either stick with it and put effort into making it better, or slink off to their bedrooms and sulk until their mammys call them for school.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:39 am

I have to say the pro 12 games ( and I have watched almost every game) has been very good as entertainment. Few rubbish games

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:41 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
It's a joke league because the differences in protocol, player release time, distance, squad depth, and union support between the teams is so vast.

These are the challenges of playing in a cross border competition, its the same for the Heino or whatever plan the PRL have in mind be it the RCC, or anglo- welsh or anglo French league.

We either acknowledge this and move forward or we scrap the notion of multi country competitions in Europe.

At the end of the day every team has 15 players on the field and play under the same rules so that's as even as you are ever going to get in sport.

How naiive. I'd love to be able to think of ti as simplistically as that.

The problems are simplistic chunky, resolving them isn't because they are embedded in the fact that each country unilaterally adopted their own domestic model when the game went pro.

What's your solution chunky?

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:41 am

rodders wrote:

The problems are simplistic chunky, resolving them isn't because they are embedded in the fact that each country unilaterally adopted their own domestic model when the game went pro.

What's your solution chunky?

A British and Irish League.

by **Biltong** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:42 am

TJ wrote:Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

TJ, we don't get to see Rabo in South Africa, unlike Top 14 and AP, so I can't comment on the quality comparisons, but don't you think that statement opens your argument up for criticism?

Percieved quality is often really just subjective bias.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:43 am

Biltong wrote:
TJ, we don't get to see Rabo in South Africa, unlike Top 14 and AP

I wonder why.

by beshocked Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:43 am

PSW

Teams are often understrength because of the IWs.

It's obvious if 12 clubs/regions contribute to 4 international squads more top players will be lost than 12/14 clubs contributing to just 1 international squad.

To be fair to the Pro12 it is improving.

The disdain for the Pro12 mostly comes from the virtual auto qualification for the HC for most of the teams in the league.

When you are in the HC in 17 consecutive seasons you have a much higher chance of winning a HC than one whose only taken part in 7. You build up the experience of the squad in those big matches, you build up your revenue and help improve your profile by continually taking on the best sides.

If you take part in the AP you could reach the HC semi final but not qualify for the HC the next year. In the Pro12 you've got a good chance being in the HC next season.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:45 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
It's a joke league because the differences in protocol, player release time, distance, squad depth, and union support between the teams is so vast.

These are the challenges of playing in a cross border competition, its the same for the Heino or whatever plan the PRL have in mind be it the RCC, or anglo- welsh or anglo French league.

We either acknowledge this and move forward or we scrap the notion of multi country competitions in Europe.

At the end of the day every team has 15 players on the field and play under the same rules so that's as even as you are ever going to get in sport.

How naiive. I'd love to be able to think of ti as simplistically as that.

To be honest the biggest flaw with the Rabo is not the Irish/Scots/Italians but the WRU, the extra AI is what hurts the regions. The extra AI the WRU put upon us, not the fact the others don't have it. And to be fair teams miss international players, some more than others but it is inevitable, and look at it the other way, when those international boys are back then they you could argue the Scarlets have a 10 internationals to 2 advantage over the Dragons. There are what 4 or 5 games played in the league when the welsh lads are missing to call ups, and another 17-18 when they are/should be available. That makes a net advantage to us.

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:45 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

The problems are simplistic chunky, resolving them isn't because they are embedded in the fact that each country unilaterally adopted their own domestic model when the game went pro.

What's your solution chunky?

A British and Irish League.

How does that resolve anything - you are still combining Union driven teams and independent clubs. It would be even less an even playing field than the Rabo in terms of squad sizes, budgets etc. It would be a disaster for the International game.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:45 am

beshocked wrote:

If you take part in the AP you could reach the HC semi final but not qualify for the HC the next year. In the Pro12 you've got a good chance being in the HC next season.

Which, quite clearly, makes the Aviva a more competitive league.

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:47 am

Biltong wrote:
TJ, we don't get to see Rabo in South Africa

That's a pity Bilts...we have a lot of your best players .... Run

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:47 am

rodders wrote:

How does that resolve anything - you are still combining Union driven teams and independent clubs. It would be even less an even playing field than the Rabo in terms of squad sizes, budgets etc. It would be a disaster for the International game.

It would be better though. It wouldn't resolve some things. But it woudl be better.

More meaningful fixtures more often
More attractive teams
More chance of getting to an away game
Better referees
More money
more competitive
relegation
promotion
etc etc etc etc etc

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:49 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

The problems are simplistic chunky, resolving them isn't because they are embedded in the fact that each country unilaterally adopted their own domestic model when the game went pro.

What's your solution chunky?

A British and Irish League.

I am not too sure who that would make any difference.

1) The IRFU, WRU, SRU and RFU will still have different ways of funding teams and by different amounts.
2) The NQ rulings for teams would differ from country to country.
3) The RFU play a 4th AI every other year, and the WRU play one every year, so their sides would be effected by this where as the SRU/IRFU teams would be unaffected.
4) The amount of time international players are allowed to play will still vary from union to union, and there will still be times when teams are fielded considerably under strength.

by geoff998rugby Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:50 am

Biltong the reason you dont see Pro12 is because there is not an overaching TV provider and it is only shown on local TV.

That will change next year with Sky being the major TV provider.

Obviously entertainment is subjective but from what I have seen Aviva and Pro12 have been far more entertaining than the T14 this year.
The one sidedness of many T14 games has been a dull spectacle.

Beshocked makes some good points re higher number of players lost during International windows - that is an inevitable by product of smaller populations.
As to the disdain and the HC I think that is a good point - which has been addressed with the 6/6/7+1 qualification idea which seems to have been agreed

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:51 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Biltong the reason you dont see Pro12 is because there is not an overaching TV provider and it is only shown on local TV.

That will change next year with Sky being the major TV provider.

How is the pro12 shown in Asia then?

by geoff998rugby Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:52 am

Who shows it and is it live?

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:53 am

Biltong - want me to find some youtube links to games? I will have to try to remeber which ones were good. ;-)

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:54 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Who shows it and is it live?

http://www.setanta.com/asia/Our-Sports/Rugby/RaboDirect-Pro12/

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:54 am

It doesnt help the Pro12 that its so similar in make up to the HC, just missing most of the money many of the best sides and best supported teams.
It lacks any real distinct identity.

The same would be the case for the Brirish league. HC without the French played over a million weekends? Hmm.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 11:58 am

Biltong - I agree it can be very subjective and did sort of mention it.

by VinceWLB Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:00 pm

T14 is dull, Connacht players bottom of the rabo thought they were fitter than Toulouse' players.
If the T14 is that good why there are so many 9-6 kinf of game? T14 is lucky to take place in a country with more than 65 milions people.

Isaac Boss recently said Pro 12 is the best competition he has played in.

It is also by far the best competition for young talents.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:06 pm

VinceWLB wrote:T14 is dull, Connacht players bottom of the rabo thought they were fitter than Toulouse' players.
If the T14 is that good why there are so many 9-6 kinf of game? T14 is lucky to take place in a country with more than 65 milions people.

So a 9-6 game can't be interesting? The more tries the better?

Isaac Boss recently said Pro 12 is the best competition he has played in

That's amazing. Must be true if world beater Isaac Boss said it.

It is also by far the best competition for young talents.

Only because they are forced to put out 18 year olds. I'd much rather watch an experienced overseas player. If it's youth I want to watch I'll watch an under 20 game.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:07 pm

Chunky - want to buzz off? Please. the rest of us are having an interesting discussion on it.

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:09 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

How does that resolve anything - you are still combining Union driven teams and independent clubs. It would be even less an even playing field than the Rabo in terms of squad sizes, budgets etc. It would be a disaster for the International game.

It would be better though. It wouldn't resolve some things. But it woudl be better.

More meaningful fixtures more often
More attractive teams
More chance of getting to an away game
Better referees
More money
more competitive
relegation
promotion
etc etc etc etc etc

Sorry but this is pie and the sky nonsense. It would be un workable. As you have mentioned the WRU play 4 AI's - so that would put the Welsh teams at a disadvantage for a start, as would the IRFU player welfare system....the Irish teams have a strict quota on NIEs ... would you accept a Welsh team being relegated because of a 4th AI?

This is just chasing an imaginary pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.....

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:09 pm

TJ wrote:Chunky - want to buzz off? Please. the rest of us are having an interesting discussion on it.

Nice. So an alternative view is not welcome?

by lostinwales Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:11 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

The problems are simplistic chunky, resolving them isn't because they are embedded in the fact that each country unilaterally adopted their own domestic model when the game went pro.

What's your solution chunky?

A British and Irish League.

The problem from an England point of view is that potentially you are imposing structures (e.g. travel issues) that cause pro12 problems on the AP teams. I.e. dragging England down rather than pulling pro12 teams up.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:11 pm

rodders wrote:

Sorry but this is pie and the sky nonsense. It would be un workable. As you have mentioned the WRU play 4 AI's - so that would put the Welsh teams at a disadvantage for a start, as would the IRFU player welfare system....the Irish teams have a strict quota on NIEs ...

Errrr, don't those things happen now?

would you accept a Welsh team being relegated because of a 4th AI?

If a welsh team gets relegated, they get relegated.

This is just chasing an imaginary pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.....

No. It's potentially the best thing that could happen in the history of proffessional Northern Hemisphere rugby.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:12 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

The problems are simplistic chunky, resolving them isn't because they are embedded in the fact that each country unilaterally adopted their own domestic model when the game went pro.

What's your solution chunky?

A British and Irish League.

The problem from an England point of view is that potentially you are imposing structures (e.g. travel issues) that cause pro12 problems on the AP teams. I.e. dragging England down rather than pulling pro12 teams up.

I appreciate that. It's difficult. But not impossible.

The Pro12 is just a mess of a league though.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:13 pm

chunky - negative post slagging people off are not helpful nor an alternative viewpoint. You re now blocked and I suggest others do the same

by VinceWLB Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:14 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Only because they are forced to put out 18 year olds. I'd much rather watch an experienced overseas player. If it's youth I want to watch I'll watch an under 20 game.

You must love Toulon.

Truth is there are lot of cracking talents who cant developp because of old heads.
Anyway i'm more interested in watching a league with young eager players than a league filled with old mercenaries, maybe thats just me.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:15 pm

TJ wrote:Chunky - want to buzz off?

The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

by **rodders** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

Sorry but this is pie and the sky nonsense. It would be un workable. As you have mentioned the WRU play 4 AI's - so that would put the Welsh teams at a disadvantage for a start, as would the IRFU player welfare system....the Irish teams have a strict quota on NIEs ...

Errrr, don't those things happen now?

Yes but I accept that flaw as part of a league which is essential to four countries who don't have the population or demographics to sustain their own individual professional leagues.

The English don't need us and we don't need them so a B&I makes zero sense for anyone.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:16 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Only because they are forced to put out 18 year olds. I'd much rather watch an experienced overseas player. If it's youth I want to watch I'll watch an under 20 game.

You must love Toulon.

Truth is there are lot of cracking talents who cant developp because of old heads.
Anyway i'm more interested in watching a league with young eager players than a team filled with old mercenaries, maybe thats just me.

Toulon have an excellent business model. They get unfairly blamed for loads of things in my opinion, whilst running an excellent business model off the pitch. They don't help their national side though.

I pay for a season ticket to watch the best players my club can afford. When they are not playing due to circumstances beyond their control. That is unfair.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:17 pm

A british and Irish league will never happen now same as it didn't happen at the begging of pro rugby despite many of us and the unons wanting it. the English clubs will not accept half of their top teams no longer being in the top teir. many folk tried hard to get one right at the beggining. the english would not play. Hence the Rabo which is a british and irish league without the english.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:18 pm

Can everyone please ignore Chunky - I have blocked him. He is creating dissent and argument and preventing decent debate.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:18 pm

rodders wrote:

Yes but I accept that flaw as part of a league which is essential to four countries who don't have the population or demographics to sustain their own individual professional leagues.

The English don't need us and we don't need them so a B&I makes zero sense for anyone.

That's where you're wrong I'm afraid. There are commercial opportunities out there that would benefit all nations involved. Even Italy if they were accepted into a French setup.

But too many blazer and Union apologists don't want any upheaval. Because they are on a good thing at the moment.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:19 pm

TJ wrote:A british and Irish league will never happen now same as it didn't happen at the begging of pro rugby despite many of us and the unons wanting it. the English clubs will not accept half of their top teams no longer being in the top teir. many folk tried hard to get one right at the beggining. the english would not play. Hence the Rabo which is a british and irish league without the english.

It also has Italian teams in it. So not really.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:23 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:

OK, lets break this down

A) Local derbies in international windows
B) Local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before games
C) Same old teams getting advantaged in international windows
http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/index.php - could you give examples of the above using this season fixtures ?

D) Little chance of fans getting to many away games. Aye, you're probably right there, but how many Bath fans went up (not many looking at the 4, 616 attendance), or how many Exeter fans are going up, to the Falcons ? It's not so much the different countries, it's just distance.

a) this one from last season particularly sticks in the mind. look at the line ups. They are pathetic.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=173507

b) see Ospreys v scarlets this season. date wasn't arranged until 3 and a half weeks before the game. pathetic.

c) Yup. the fixtures are more or less the same every season. That means the Dragons and Connacht for instance, play the same teams in the international window all the time. The teams they play against lose far more players then the Dragons or Connacht. Therefore it's a disadvantage on the same teams year in year out. I think the Scarlets have played away to connacht in the November test window 8 times out of the last 10 seasons.

Joke league.

I noticed this didn't get 1 single comment.

by lostinwales Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:24 pm

TJ wrote:A british and Irish league will never happen now same as it didn't happen at the begging of pro rugby despite many of us and the unons wanting it. the English clubs will not accept half of their top teams no longer being in the top teir. many folk tried hard to get one right at the beggining. the english would not play. Hence the Rabo which is a british and irish league without the english.

Back to is being England's fault again.

Biggest problem I can see is that success/ development is as far from uniform across the league as you could imagine. The provinces in Ireland have been a huge success. Everywhere else its all been a bit hmmm.

Scottish teams do seem to be finally on a bit of an up, but the support is still pathetic.

Italian teams have hugely improved over a few years to the point where one of them is mediocre

Welsh teams have occasionally done OK in the league but we all know what is happening at the moment. And support is still pathetic.

by GunsGerms Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:26 pm

Pro 12 is a very good league in my opinion and well run. It is completely fit for purpose which is very important.

It deals with the unique situation of bringing together 4 unions very well and delivers a pretty good product and provides a good platform for developing a strong player base for all of those unions.

The age old arguement that it cant be any good because there is no relegation is so tiresome. The Rabo is set up apropriately for the unique scenarios it is faced with. It isnt always appropriate to have relegation. The NFL works very well without it as do other leagues. you can argue that relagation hampers rugby quality as much as it adds to excitement and meaning of certain matches.

There are plenty of poor matches in all three major NH leagues but given that the Rabo is the youngest of all three leagues and faces bigger challenges than the other leagues both financially and logistically I think the amount of great games in the rabo vs ther other leagues is testament to how good a job in general the organisers do.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:27 pm

Not englands fault at all. I didn't say that. I understand why they didn't want it and don't blame them for it. No advantages to the english clubs in a B&I league

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:28 pm

To go back to the original question - I simply was interested in others attitudes to the Pro 12 and wanted to explore these attitudes.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:31 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Pro 12 is a very good league in my opinion and well run. It is completely fit for purpose which is very important.

It deals with the unique situation of bringing together 4 unions very well and delivers a pretty good product and provides a good platform for developing a strong player base for all of those unions.

The age old arguement that it cant be any good because there is no relegation is so tiresome. The Rabo is set up apropriately for the unique scenarios it is faced with. It isnt always appropriate to have relegation. The NFL works very well without it as do other leagues. you can argue that relagation hampers rugby quality as much as it adds to excitement and meaning of certain matches.

There are plenty of poor matches in all three major NH leagues but given that the Rabo is the youngest of all three leagues and faces bigger challenges than the other leagues both financially and logistically I think the amount of great games in the rabo vs ther other leagues is testament to how good a job in general the organisers do.

There are far more good competitive games in the Aviva Premiership than the pro12.

That sadly is a matter of opinion and can't be proved though.

by VinceWLB Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:35 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
There are far more good competitive games in the Aviva Premiership than the pro12.
That sadly is a matter of opinion and can't be proved though.

If by competitive you mean close, well contested game then you are wrong, rabo has 35 losing bonus point so far to the aviva 32.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:36 pm

Not neccessarily close.. Just good games of rugby. A better level of absic skills, better organised defences, more skillful players, better backlines, better players, better coached teams etc etc

The Aviva is a very good league to watch. I wish my team was in it.

by TJ Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:37 pm

TJ wrote:Can everyone please ignore Chunky - I have blocked him. He is creating dissent and argument and preventing decent debate.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Jan 2014, 12:43 pm

324,000 more people watched Aviva Premeirship matches than Pro12 matches last season.

That's a lot of tickets.

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