Why the disdain for the Pro12?

First topic message reminder :

Chaps - I know its a bit controversial but try to keep it civil please

Some posters on here show great disdain for the Po12 disparaging it on dubious grounds.  Often without actually watching any / many games

Its a very competitive league with the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more.  Despite no relegation teams fight hard all season.  Many great competative games with some great rivalries building up and regular derby games.

For example rotation of players.  Exeter made 10 changes from the team played in their last league game for the team that played Glasgow in the HC.  I really do not see this supposed "resting" of players in the Pro 12 is any different to the rotation of AP squads.

Pro 12 teams do at least as well ( considered as a league) as do the top 14 or AP in the HC

Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

I enjoy watching top 14 and AP games


Why do some posters make such disparaging comments?  I am genuinely interested in this.  Is it jealousy?  Is it fear?  

Please keep it civil chaps.  Ta

Edit - the top 4 teams in the Pro12 are separated by 6 points, in the AP its 18.  Bottom 4 teams in the Pro 12 separated by 10 points AP 15

Edit again - more try bonus points in the Ap. less losing bonus points - again pointing to a more competative league

There's a blog doing the rounds on twitter today, which claims the following:

The Regions clearly want to choose the competitions they play in and to negotiate their own broadcast contracts. The reason for this is entirely obvious: clubs in France and England have this ability already and are significantly more successful in bringing in revenue than are the Celtic Unions. The figures prove this: the Pro12’s TV revenue for next season is (potentially, based on participation) about £9.5m a year across 10 teams. The French contract is approximately £60m across 14 teams, the English contract is approximately £27m across 12 teams.

Therefore, it is quite obvious as to why RRW want a piece of the English pie and not the Celtic pie. It is also reported that should there be an Anglo-Welsh league next season then that would be worth £4m a year to the RRW teams.

And still, some posters can't see why the Welsh regions might want to leave the Pro12

Chunky Norwich wrote:There's a blog doing the rounds on twitter today, which claims the following:

The Regions clearly want to choose the competitions they play in and to negotiate their own broadcast contracts. The reason for this is entirely obvious: clubs in France and England have this ability already and are significantly more successful in bringing in revenue than are the Celtic Unions. The figures prove this: the Pro12’s TV revenue for next season is (potentially, based on participation) about £9.5m a year across 10 teams. The French contract is approximately £60m across 14 teams, the English contract is approximately £27m across 12 teams.

Therefore, it is quite obvious as to why RRW want a piece of the English pie and not the Celtic pie. It is also reported that should there be an Anglo-Welsh league next season then that would be worth £4m a year to the RRW teams.

And still, some posters can't see why the Welsh regions might want to leave the Pro12

PRL and LNR choose which competitions they want to play in? Really?

Chunky Norwich wrote:There's a blog doing the rounds on twitter today, which claims the following:

The Regions clearly want to choose the competitions they play in and to negotiate their own broadcast contracts. The reason for this is entirely obvious: clubs in France and England have this ability already and are significantly more successful in bringing in revenue than are the Celtic Unions. The figures prove this: the Pro12’s TV revenue for next season is (potentially, based on participation) about £9.5m a year across 10 teams. The French contract is approximately £60m across 14 teams, the English contract is approximately £27m across 12 teams.

Therefore, it is quite obvious as to why RRW want a piece of the English pie and not the Celtic pie. It is also reported that should there be an Anglo-Welsh league next season then that would be worth £4m a year to the RRW teams.

And still, some posters can't see why the Welsh regions might want to leave the Pro12

Overall, Welsh regions wouldn't have more money as they wouldn't have Hec and LV cup revenues.

VinceWLB wrote:

Overall, Welsh regions wouldn't have more money as they wouldn't have Hec and LV cup revenues.

Why wouldn't they have HEC revenue? They'd have an equivalent AW league and an equivalent RCC

Munchkin wrote:

PRL and LNR choose which competitions they want to play in? Really?

Effectively. Haven't we seen that over the last 6 months?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Overall, Welsh regions wouldn't have more money as they wouldn't have Hec and LV cup revenues.

Why wouldn't they have HEC revenue? They'd have an equivalent AW league and an equivalent RCC

If they join the Aviva they will not be playing in a European Cup.

I don't care, to be honest, it's just a little rich making pokes at the welsh when you share a lot of their troubles and need the regions frankly. Good on Flood for taking a contract elsewhere and allowing a young fly half to take his place. My own club seems allergic to the transfer market, so it's interesting to see the furore that sometimes accompanies it

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Overall, Welsh regions wouldn't have more money as they wouldn't have Hec and LV cup revenues.

Why wouldn't they have HEC revenue? They'd have an equivalent AW league and an equivalent RCC

If they join the Aviva they will not be playing in a European Cup.

Has the new European Cup that France won't take part in unless FIRA run it, in which case the PRL might come back into it been confirmed yet?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PRL and LNR choose which competitions they want to play in? Really?

Effectively. Haven't we seen that over the last 6 months?

No, we haven't. What we have seen is a non existent cup being spouted by PRL, and which would need the agreement of the Unions to ever have a chance. We have also just seen LNR sign up to an FFR contract in which the FFR union stipulates which competitions they are in.
Neither PRL, or LNR, can choose which competition they want to participate in without being sanctioned by the Unions, and ultimately the IRB.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Overall, Welsh regions wouldn't have more money as they wouldn't have Hec and LV cup revenues.

Why wouldn't they have HEC revenue? They'd have an equivalent AW league and an equivalent RCC

If they join the Aviva they will not be playing in a European Cup.

Ever?

Munchkin wrote:
No, we haven't. What we have seen is a non existent cup being spouted by PRL, and which would need the agreement of the Unions to ever have a chance.

So next season the PRL clubs will be playing in competition forced upon them?

We have also just seen LNR sign up to an FFR contract in which the FFR union stipulates which competitions they are in.

Which clubs are those then?

Neither PRL, or LNR, can choose which competition they want to participate in without being sanctioned by the Unions, and ultimately the IRB.

Agreed. At the moment. But they will play in the competitions they want to.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't care, to be honest, it's just a little rich making pokes at the welsh when you share a lot of their troubles and need the regions frankly. Good on Flood for taking a contract elsewhere and allowing a young fly half to take his place. My own club seems allergic to the transfer market, so it's interesting to see the furore that sometimes accompanies it

What troubles do the provinces share with the regions?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Scarlets. Check the fixtures again.

Have you checked them Pete?

The losing of high quality players to other leagues and the reliance on European rugby financially are what spring to mind

Munchkin wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't care, to be honest, it's just a little rich making pokes at the welsh when you share a lot of their troubles and need the regions frankly. Good on Flood for taking a contract elsewhere and allowing a young fly half to take his place. My own club seems allergic to the transfer market, so it's interesting to see the furore that sometimes accompanies it

What troubles do the provinces share with the regions?

Exactly. we don't have any of the issues they do. we are union owned so no scope for friction there. we don't have a problem getting bodies through the gates. etc.

To address CJ's post. The "poke at the Welsh" was in response to Hersh's dig at us. You made a "poke" at Us losing Sexton (the only one so far in history) to France. That was a bit ill advised with Flood being only the latest in a long line.

Also a bit Ill advised on SOB who is staying and Heaslip who has yet to decide.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Scarlets. Check the fixtures again.

Have you checked them Pete?

Why don't you just put them up yourself? Too lazy? Teenagers can be like that ok. Want someone else to do everything for them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Overall, Welsh regions wouldn't have more money as they wouldn't have Hec and LV cup revenues.

Why wouldn't they have HEC revenue? They'd have an equivalent AW league and an equivalent RCC

If they join the Aviva they will not be playing in a European Cup.

Ever?

For the forseable future because an expanded Aviva will not have the fixture space to accommodate a European Cup.

That is why I think there is very little chance of an Anglo Welsh league.
It is not what the English want - they want a European competition with BT money so they can get half way towards the French cash wise.
The Angle Welsh league is only on the table as the booby prize if they can find no other way of filling up the fixture list

Secondly as the WRU will oppose so will the IRB and the RFU cannot be seen to be sanctioning a non IRB tournament a year away from the World Cup.
I suspect the RFU would rather the Welsh just go away

ChequeredJersey wrote:The losing of high quality players to other leagues and the reliance on European rugby financially are what spring to mind

Can you give me a list?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
No, we haven't. What we have seen is a non existent cup being spouted by PRL, and which would need the agreement of the Unions to ever have a chance.

So next season the PRL clubs will be playing in competition forced upon them?

We have also just seen LNR sign up to an FFR contract in which the FFR union stipulates which competitions they are in.

Which clubs are those then?

Neither PRL, or LNR, can choose which competition they want to participate in without being sanctioned by the Unions, and ultimately the IRB.

Agreed. At the moment. But they will play in the competitions they want to.

Nobody is forcing PRL to do anything. The want to pick up their ball, and huff off to play with themselves, then that's their choice. Even if they were forced to then that just demonstrates that PRL can't simply choose to play in whatever competition they want.

Which clubs? All clubs who qualify for playing T14 next season, and all who qualify for HEC. Don't buy the media spin that some will not participate. It's nonsense.

No, they won't. Where are you getting this from. They will only play in competitions sanctioned by the Unions. Unless they break away, of course, but then it's no longer Rugby Union they will be playing.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
No, we haven't. What we have seen is a non existent cup being spouted by PRL, and which would need the agreement of the Unions to ever have a chance.

1. So next season the PRL clubs will be playing in competition forced upon them?

We have also just seen LNR sign up to an FFR contract in which the FFR union stipulates which competitions they are in.

2. Which clubs are those then?

Neither PRL, or LNR, can choose which competition they want to participate in without being sanctioned by the Unions, and ultimately the IRB.

3.  Agreed. At the moment. But they will play in the competitions they want to.

1. I'd say the PRL clubs more than likely will not be playing in any cross border competitions (other than the LV Cup) next season.

2. The LNR clubs have agreed with the FFR to play in the Heineken Cup organised by the ERC next season.

3. Agreed. I think the RFU & FFR meeting the other day must have been around trying to get the PRL clubs back into cross-border competition the following season.

So far the Irish provinces have re-signed top players across the board - Best, Murray, SOB for example.
The Irish are retaining their players the Welsh aren't

At the end of the day the rugby on show in the Rabo is ok, I'm a fan of it believe it or not and I prefer it to the Top14.

But

and it is a BIG but!

There isn't any money in it, and if there isn't enough money it won't last, the fans vote with their feet at the end of the day.

In many ways comparing the Top14 with the Rabo is a bit like comparing a burger from McDonalds to a roadside burger van I bet you the burger van is the tastier burger but it's not the one making millions every minute of the day.

Scrumpy wrote:


At the end of the day the rugby on show in the Rabo is ok, I'm a fan of it believe it or not and I prefer it to the Top14.

But

and it is a BIG but!

There isn't any money in it, and if there isn't enough money it won't last, the fans vote with their feet at the end of the day.

In many ways comparing the Top14 with the Rabo is a bit like comparing a burger from McDonalds to a roadside burger van I bet you the burger van is the tastier burger but it's not the one making millions every minute of the day.

Can't argue with that.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Why don't you just put them up yourself? Too lazy? Teenagers can be like that ok. Want someone else to do everything for them.

I've already told him. If anybody wants to disprove something they should be the ones to put the facts on the table.

EDIT: screw it, I'll do it . Here we go. 8 out of 10 seasons is it? Aaaalways the same. Dice loaded against the team producing the most internationals.

2013/14 – November (a) AIs
2012/13 - February (h) Six nations
2011/12 – March (a) Six Nations
2010/11 – February (h) Six Nations
2009/10 – October 30 (week before AIs)
2005/6 – Feb (a) Six Nations
2004/5 - Feb (a) Six Nations
2003/4 – Oct 24th (a) week before AIs

Munchkin wrote:

Nobody is forcing PRL to do anything. The want to pick up their ball, and huff off to play with themselves, then that's their choice. Even if they were forced to then that just demonstrates that PRL can't simply choose to play in whatever competition they want.

Which clubs? All clubs who qualify for playing T14 next season, and all who qualify for HEC. Don't buy the media spin that some will not participate. It's nonsense.

No, they won't. Where are you getting this from. They will only play in competitions sanctioned by the Unions. Unless they break away, of course, but then it's no longer Rugby Union they will be playing.

The PRL negotiate which competitions they play in. Yes, they will only play in Sanctioned competitions. But they have the RFU by the short and curlies due to the world cup coming up.

The RFU wanted them to play in the HCup. PRL don't want to. Yet you seem to suggest they are not in control of which competitions they play in.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:The losing of high quality players to other leagues and the reliance on European rugby financially are what spring to mind

Can you give me a list?

Fair enough, only Sexton has gone so far (and Ferris largely due to injury), and if SOB has re-signed then that's another major player staying and then it only looks like Heaslip left. Given the rumours and the fact that players like Murray actively stated that they strongly considered moving to France, the allure is clearly there. It is for English players too, but as we frankly have the issue of too many players good at club level and no real way of deciding who could make the step up before we try them, then either they play well and we stick with them forever even if they never threaten to refind that good form or they play badly and we refuse to ever pick them again, losing players to the French league is not only something we can take on but also actually not even a bad thing for us at all. At the time I relied to your remark which accurately looked at the Welsh player drain to France but was also needlessly disparaging of the Regions who have some decent reasons for not wanting to stay part of the RABO, I did not know the newly revealed SOB re-signing, and so at the time a likely loss of 3 high profile players of the calibre of Sexton, SOB and Heaslip from your own Province made your point highly hypocritical, but it seems I am wrong and owe you an apology on that front.

The fact that teams are being forced to play the HEC (amd RABO) despite the French Clubs (bar Toulon, who given their strategy to buy everyone so nobody can play against them, are likely the worst allies anyone could have), Welsh regions, English Clubs and reputedly (only in the Mail so possibly misreported) the Italian sides too all being very unhappy with the layouts of the competitions may seem like a victory, but when that many people are unhappy with something and yet people try to force them to stay with it, it demonstrates a flawed system and possibly an ethical quandary, as well as implying that something is badly wrong with both competitions to the extent that only Ireland and Scotland are satisfied.


Also, if I had to keep one of Flood or Heaslip, I know who'd I want to keep... And it's not the Englishman

ChequeredJersey wrote:  

Also, if I had to keep one of Flood or Heaslip, I know who'd I want to keep... And it's not the Englishman

So would I but is not just Flood is it.

There is only 1top Irish players playing outside Ireland, with another possible.
The numbers are a lot higher for Wales, Scotland and England.

Sin é wrote:

1. I'd say the PRL clubs more than likely will not be playing in any cross border competitions (other than the LV Cup) next season.

I disagree. They will either play in the British and Irish Cup (RCC version) or if that is not agreed, they will play in an Anglo Welsh league. Have PRL and RRW not signed an agreement that says neither will play in a European competition without the other?

2.  The LNR clubs have agreed with the FFR to play in the Heineken Cup organised by the ERC next season.

We'll see, there are a few clubs still arguing. Toulouse Toulon and SF.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

1. I'd say the PRL clubs more than likely will not be playing in any cross border competitions (other than the LV Cup) next season.

I disagree. They will either play in the British and Irish Cup (RCC version) or if that is not agreed, they will play in an Anglo Welsh league. Have PRL and RRW not signed an agreement that says neither will play in a European competition without the other?

The RFU signing up to an non IRU sanction competition a year before a World Cup in England - not a chance.

I

geoff999rugby wrote:

The RFU signing up to an non IRU sanction competition a year before a World Cup in England - not a chance.

I

Why would it be non sanctioned? The courts will decide not the IRB.

geoff999rugby wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:  

Also, if I had to keep one of Flood or Heaslip, I know who'd I want to keep... And it's not the Englishman

So would I but is not just Flood is it.

There is only 1top Irish players playing outside Ireland, with another possible.
The numbers are a lot higher for Wales, Scotland and England.

To be fair all of the ones currently there either didn't think they'd get picked internationally anyway as they were being ignored or are retirees enjoying their last pay checks. I make 3 players we are really losing to France, the Armitages and now Flood

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

1. I'd say the PRL clubs more than likely will not be playing in any cross border competitions (other than the LV Cup) next season.

I disagree. They will either play in the British and Irish Cup (RCC version) or if that is not agreed, they will play in an Anglo Welsh league. Have PRL and RRW not signed an agreement that says neither will play in a European competition without the other?

The RFU signing up to an non IRU sanction competition a year before a World Cup in England - not a chance.

I

Did you mean IRB? Or IRU?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Nobody is forcing PRL to do anything. The want to pick up their ball, and huff off to play with themselves, then that's their choice. Even if they were forced to then that just demonstrates that PRL can't simply choose to play in whatever competition they want.

Which clubs? All clubs who qualify for playing T14 next season, and all who qualify for HEC. Don't buy the media spin that some will not participate. It's nonsense.

No, they won't. Where are you getting this from. They will only play in competitions sanctioned by the Unions. Unless they break away, of course, but then it's no longer Rugby Union they will be playing.

The PRL negotiate which competitions they play in. Yes, they will only play in Sanctioned competitions. But they have the RFU by the short and curlies due to the world cup coming up.

The RFU wanted them to play in the HCup. PRL don't want to. Yet you seem to suggest they are not in control of which competitions they play in.

They may have RFU by the short and curly's, completely the fault of RFU, but even then they need their sanction, however, we're talking about a European cup, and so even if RFU were to sanction it, they would also need the sanction of all other relevant Unions, and ultimately that of IRB.

In short, the PRL can't simply choose which competitions to play in, and because of their stance they may well find themselves without any European competition next year. The regions will not be joining them....

Munchkin wrote:

They may have RFU by the short and curly's, completely the fault of RFU, but even then they need their sanction, however, we're talking about a European cup, and so even if RFU were to sanction it, they would also need the sanction of all other relevant Unions, and ultimately that of IRB.

In short, the PRL can't simply choose which competitions to play in, and because of their stance they may well find themselves without any European competition next year. The regions will not be joining them....

Naiive. They are choosing which competitions they play in. That is happenning right now.

And if they are not allowed to go into a competition by the IRB or the RFU or anybody else, then they will go to court and win the right to play in the competitions they want to play in

Law of the Land >>>>> IRB.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

They may have RFU by the short and curly's, completely the fault of RFU, but even then they need their sanction, however, we're talking about a European cup, and so even if RFU were to sanction it, they would also need the sanction of all other relevant Unions, and ultimately that of IRB.

In short, the PRL can't simply choose which competitions to play in, and because of their stance they may well find themselves without any European competition next year. The regions will not be joining them....

Naiive. They are choosing which competitions they play in. That is happenning right now.

And if they are not allowed to go into a competition by the IRB or the RFU or anybody else, then they will go to court and win the right to play in the competitions they want to play in

Law of the Land >>>>> IRB.

Good grief, and you call me naive..... Take it to Court, and win? Not a chance they will take it to Court. This is rubbish being spouted by those short on facts. Show me the last PRL statement threatening court action.

They are choosing which competition they want to play in, and this is happening now? Sure.... 

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

The RFU signing up to an non IRU sanction competition a year before a World Cup in England - not a chance.

I

Why would it be non sanctioned? The courts will decide not the IRB.

Any court case will be after the event.

The WRU will oppose and so with the IRB.

That opposition will remain whilst it is dragged through the case.
A threatened court case will not stop the IRB saying no.

Also looking at EU law it is highly debateable who will win any pending court case.

Munchkin wrote:

Good grief, and you call me naive..... Take it to Court, and win? Not a chance they will take it to Court. This is rubbish being spouted by those short on facts. Show me the last PRL statement threatening court action.

They are choosing which competition they want to play in, and this is happening now? Sure.... 

Oh dear. You're struggling here. The point is - they don't have to take it to court - because they are allowed to play in whatever competitions they want to.

Conversely, the Welsh regions aren't. The WRU seemingly won't sanction an anglo welsh league, and if that happens - expect RRW to take WRU (or IRB) to court. And win.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Any court case will be after the event.

Why's that?

The WRU will oppose and so with the IRB.

That opposition will remain whilst it is dragged through the case.
A threatened court case will not stop the IRB saying no.

Also looking at EU law it is highly debateable who will win any pending court case.

Looking at precedent (Newport FC etc) I'd disagree strongly. It would amount to restraint of trade of private business. The law of the land is always going to protect private businesses simply out to maximise profit, over a sporting body's own regulations.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Good grief, and you call me naive..... Take it to Court, and win? Not a chance they will take it to Court. This is rubbish being spouted by those short on facts. Show me the last PRL statement threatening court action.

They are choosing which competition they want to play in, and this is happening now? Sure.... 

Oh dear. You're struggling here. The point is - they don't have to take it to court - because they are allowed to play in whatever competitions they want to.

Conversely, the Welsh regions aren't. The WRU seemingly won't sanction an anglo welsh league, and if that happens - expect RRW to take WRU (or IRB) to court. And win.

Struggling with what? The fact is that it is you that claimed they will bring court action should they not get what they want. Not me. Now you are saying that they won't because they are allowed to play in any competition they want, even though you conceded earlier that they can't without union sanction   

You're obviously not reading my replies. The PRL would need the sanction of all relevant unions for the formation of this RCC, not just RFU, and ultimately that of IRB.

I did say 'even if RFU were to sanction it....'

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Any court case will be after the event.

Why's that?

The WRU will oppose and so with the IRB.

That opposition will remain whilst it is dragged through the case.
A threatened court case will not stop the IRB saying no.

Also looking at EU law it is highly debateable who will win any pending court case.

Looking at precedent (Newport FC etc) I'd disagree strongly. It would amount to restraint of trade of private business. The law of the land is always going to protect private businesses simply out to maximise profit, over a sporting body's own regulations.

The IRB will oppose the league with immediate effect and then the court case will take place.
Also the chances of the court case being resolved prior to the last possible date to organize next years fixtures are slim to none.

If the Anglo Welsh league goes ahead without IRB sanction it will outside Rugby Union.
No referees, a number of grounds not available e.g. Millenium, Twickenham.
The World Cup in total turmoil

The Newport case preceeds the EU law coming into play and is not relevant anyway.
Newport were a previous member of the English league and them rejoining it had no real impact on other parties.
Neither of those facts is true here.
The 'law of the land' on this matter is the EU directive which superceeds any common law in the UK and with regard to sport allows for restraint of trade for the greater good of the game and to protect all interested participants in the sport

Munchkin wrote:

Struggling with what? The fact is that it is you that claimed they will bring court action should they not get what they want. Not me. Now you are saying that they won't because they are allowed to play in any competition they want, even though you conceded earlier that they can't without union sanction   

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. At the moment they get what they want. Should they not at any point I'd expect a very winnable court case, as could happen with RRW.

You're obviously not reading my replies. The PRL would need the sanction of all relevant unions for the formation of this RCC, not just RFU, and ultimately that of IRB.

I did say 'even if RFU were to sanction it....'

I don't disagree with any of that. Currently. I do think though, that were this to be challenged in court it would not hold up.

Chunky, I wouldn't put too much hope in a High Court win for RRW over the WRU, last time RRW went down that route, over the player release times, the WRU won the case. So the Union won over the business there, and I can't really see it happening any other way.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Any court case will be after the event.

Why's that?

The WRU will oppose and so with the IRB.

That opposition will remain whilst it is dragged through the case.
A threatened court case will not stop the IRB saying no.

Also looking at EU law it is highly debateable who will win any pending court case.

Looking at precedent (Newport FC etc) I'd disagree strongly. It would amount to restraint of trade of private business. The law of the land is always going to protect private businesses simply out to maximise profit, over a sporting body's own regulations.

The IRB will oppose the league with immediate effect and then the court case will take place.
Also the chances of the court case being resolved prior to the last possible date to organize next years fixtures are slim to none.

If the Anglo Welsh league goes ahead without IRB sanction it will outside Rugby Union.
No referees, a number of grounds not available e.g. Millenium, Twickenham.
The World Cup in total turmoil

The Newport case preceeds the EU law coming into play and is not relevant anyway.
Newport were a previous member of the English league and them rejoining it had no real impact on other parties.
Neither of those facts is true here.
The 'law of the land' on this matter is the EU directive which superceeds any common law in the UK and with regard to sport allows for restraint of trade for the greater good of the game and to protect all interested participants in the sport

these are just your opinions.

courts are great for i) resolving unprecedented disputes (and therefore set precedents making future cases easier to resolve) ii) deciding which precedents do or don't apply, and which laws apply (EU/Eng&Wal/trade/employment/etc).

it is massively unclear what would happen in this professional era if for-profit clubs go to court with WRU and or IRB. not clear at all.

Regarding a AW league, the RRW would have to take the WRU to court, suggesting the refusal to sanction it was for unlawful reasons. They may or may not win (the fact they're contractually obliged to the PRO12 and there are limited resources in Wales for pro rugby I think they have a pretty good shot). If they do the RFU would need to give their approval. Now the reasons for the WRU not approving are completely different to those for the RFU. The RFU has to think about the 12 pro clubs in the championship, the number of games, and various other things. They have previously blocked an expantion to the Jeff. They have plenty of legitimate reasons to block it (and different ones to the WRU). Then on top of that the IRB would need to sanction it, and again their reasons for doing so would be very different.

So, I can't see them appealing against the IRB regs themselves (a sports governing body governing the sport? Shocking [NB That doesn't mean controlling every aspect ]). But I could see them appealling against the reasons for blocking.

Now with the RCC, that's very different. Depending on what they've signed so far (5 unions cup, Sky deal, etc) they aren't necessarily contracted to give teams to the ERC. So it's a bit of a different matter. But again, xxxx knows.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Struggling with what? The fact is that it is you that claimed they will bring court action should they not get what they want. Not me. Now you are saying that they won't because they are allowed to play in any competition they want, even though you conceded earlier that they can't without union sanction   

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. At the moment they get what they want. Should they not at any point I'd expect a  very winnable court case, as could happen with RRW.

You're obviously not reading my replies. The PRL would need the sanction of all relevant unions for the formation of this RCC, not just RFU, and ultimately that of IRB.

I did say 'even if RFU were to sanction it....'

I don't disagree with any of that. Currently. I do think though, that were this to be challenged in court it would not hold up.

What have they got so far with regards to a European competition? Anything?

Who would PRL take to court, and on what grounds?

geoff999rugby wrote:

The IRB will oppose the league with immediate effect and then the court case will take place.
Also the chances of the court case being resolved prior to the last possible date to organize next years fixtures are slim to none.

If the Anglo Welsh league goes ahead without IRB sanction it will outside Rugby Union.
No referees, a number of grounds not available e.g. Millenium, Twickenham.
The World Cup in total turmoil

I don't think a competition would go ahead without sanction. I think there'd be a court case that would force the Unions and IRB to sanction it. I do worry over the length of that court case though.

The Newport case preceeds the EU law coming into play and is not relevant anyway.
Newport were a previous member of the English league and them rejoining it had no real impact on other parties.
Neither of those facts is true here.

I fail to see how it is "not relevant". It had a great affect on other clubs and the Welsh FA.

The 'law of the land' on this matter is the EU directive which superceeds any common law in the UK and with regard to sport allows for restraint of trade for the greater good of the game and to protect all interested participants in the sport

You seem to know far more than I do about this superceeding of laws. I hope in that case, whoever takes a union or IRB to court does their homework.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, I wouldn't put too much hope in a High Court win for RRW over the WRU, last time RRW went down that route, over the player release times, the WRU won the case.  So the Union won over the business there, and I can't really see it happening any other way.

From what I've seen I think that was because the previous agreement was non specific 'released when called up for Wales duty' type of thing. So the court ruled that it covered any time the WRU called them up for duty.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, I wouldn't put too much hope in a High Court win for RRW over the WRU, last time RRW went down that route, over the player release times, the WRU won the case.  So the Union won over the business there, and I can't really see it happening any other way.

yes but that is very different from a dispute involving a cross-border commercial agreement, which would not be ruled on by judges in Wales in the final instance, but by the EU. And the IRB does not want to get dragged into that courtroom as they would have no control over the outcome.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

1. I'd say the PRL clubs more than likely will not be playing in any cross border competitions (other than the LV Cup) next season.

I disagree. They will either play in the British and Irish Cup (RCC version) or if that is not agreed, they will play in an Anglo Welsh league. Have PRL and RRW not signed an agreement that says neither will play in a European competition without the other?

2.  The LNR clubs have agreed with the FFR to play in the Heineken Cup organised by the ERC next season.

We'll see, there are a few clubs still arguing. Toulouse Toulon and SF.

1. I think the LNR were meant to have a similar type of agreement with the PRL ... and guess what competition the French are playing in now    I think the RRW are using the PRL at the moment to get a better deal with the WRU.

2. Toulon was the first club to say they were playing in the Heineken Cup to annoy the LNR (though I believe they are now threatening to not play in the Top 14 next year because of the foreign player limit). According to a French journalist who speaks speaks/writes good English, the only French club that wants to play in the RCC is Stade and thats because the owner is a friend of Bruce Craig. The rest don't care now and never did - they used it to get a better deal for themselves. He said that Goze's statement about refusing to play in the Heineken Cup was a face saving measure because he had just been immasculated by Camou & the FRR.

Munchkin wrote:

What have they got so far with regards to a European competition? Anything?

We'll know within the fortnight. The point is.....if the competition is not to their liking, they won't play in it. If it is, they will. Therefore they play in whatever competition they want to. As they should be able to.

Who would PRL take to court, and on what grounds?

It's all hypothetical. I would imagine if the PRL negotiated a nice £200m deal with a tv company for a cross border comp, but the IRB and RFU stopped them playing, they'd take the IRB and / or the RFU to court under grounds for restraint of trade. As I keep on saying, it's hypothetical, as at this point, their futures are not the chopping block so they don't need to be forced into a tournament they don't want to be playing, or being stopped from playing in a tournment they desperately want to play in.

The potential court case we should be looking at is with the RRW.