Why the disdain for the Pro12?

Chaps - I know its a bit controversial but try to keep it civil please

Some posters on here show great disdain for the Po12 disparaging it on dubious grounds.  Often without actually watching any / many games

Its a very competitive league with the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more.  Despite no relegation teams fight hard all season.  Many great competative games with some great rivalries building up and regular derby games.

For example rotation of players.  Exeter made 10 changes from the team played in their last league game for the team that played Glasgow in the HC.  I really do not see this supposed "resting" of players in the Pro 12 is any different to the rotation of AP squads.

Pro 12 teams do at least as well ( considered as a league) as do the top 14 or AP in the HC

Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

I enjoy watching top 14 and AP games


Why do some posters make such disparaging comments?  I am genuinely interested in this.  Is it jealousy?  Is it fear?  

Please keep it civil chaps.  Ta

Edit - the top 4 teams in the Pro12 are separated by 6 points, in the AP its 18.  Bottom 4 teams in the Pro 12 separated by 10 points AP 15

Edit again - more try bonus points in the Ap. less losing bonus points - again pointing to a more competative league

hi TJ

havent seen the usual pro12 bashing on those boards that used to be quite big in the past so not sure to what posts you refer to.
personally I refrain to comment on the so called quality of that league as I barely watch it (I watch the final which has been very good entertainment value but that's it).
am not jealous of it, am happy with my local product which I appreciate is far from perfect and wish there was less T14 bashing around here by people who just dont buy into it as they are disapointed by the lack of running rugby etc  although It doesnt really matter, to each his own I say

whocares wrote:hi TJ

havent seen the usual pro12 bashing on those boards that used to be quite big in the past so not sure to what posts you refer to.
personally I refrain to comment on the so called quality of that league as I barely watch it (I watch the final which has been very good entertainment value but that's it).
am not jealous of it, am happy with my local product which I appreciate is far from perfect and wish there was less T14 bashing around here by people who just dont buy into it as they are disapointed by the lack of running rugby etc  although It doesnt really matter, to each his own I say

Bravo, whocares   

Just to clarify - Exeter made 10 changes from their AP squad, to the HC squad in what was virtually a dead rubber in the Euro competition. The noises coming out of Exeter are that these 2 HC games and the coming 2 LV games will be used to freshen up the squad in preparation for the next tranche of AP games.

Fairy snuff. I am aware this might be a bit one eyed from me.

Ta for that dubbleyew. the point simply was that all teams rotate squads for their own reasons

The logic for setting up the Pro12 is entirely sound. The perception with fans however is that when there is a conflict with the national sides priorities, the provinces or regions lose out. Exhibition rugby is good to watch but does not stir the passions.

Fans have correspondingly voted with their feet. I think the Pro12 sides enjoy the euro competitions because they actually get some away fans as much as anything.
My wife is from Edinburgh and so I take an interest as my second team but would I pay to watch a league game? er..no.

Top down structures are an approach but when the world player of the year plays 14 times for the all blacks but only 11 times for the Crusaders then that model is clearly flawed and in the long term unsustainable anywhere other than where Rugby is seen as a statement of national vigour.

Last full season.

Saracens W17
Tigers W15
Quins W15
Saints W14

Ulster 17
Leinster 17
Glasgow 16
Scarlets 15

Pretty much the same, PRO12 top 4 winning more games over all compared with Premiership.

Irish W7
Sale W7
Worcester W5
Welsh W5

Blues W8
Edinburgh W7
Dragons W6
Zebre W0

Again, comparable, except Zebre didn't win at all last year but the lowest in the premiership was 5 wins.

So I'm not sure what you mean about "the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more." do you mean just this season so far or have you looked longer term?

Although I will admit that the average number of wins across all the teams in each league is very very similar.

I simply looked at the tables now. Thats interesting tho Hammer.

recwatcher - attendences are poor but increasing on the whole I believe

Then the preception is wrong.
It matters to the players and it matters to the supporters to win the league, or at least to make the play offs.

It most defintely is not exhibition rugby.

Fans do vote with their feet which is shown by the fact 2012-13 was the best supported year for the league.

8 of the 11 team grew in support last year(Zebre dont count as it was their first year)
This year the figures are higher than last - there is a steady rise in Pro12 attendance

Also top players like Best, D'Arcy, Ross etc play as much as top English players.
There are exception like BOD but as we all know his body is struggling and he is the exception not the rule

The disdain for the Heino came when Leinster started to dominate the HEC. There were two watershed moments - Leinster overturning Northampton in the Final and then Ulster hammering the Tigers at Ravenhill two seasons ago.

The big English clubs couldn't accept being humbled at the hands of the Irish so had to clammer for excuses at why they were so far off the pace, so the RABO became the scapegoat.

The Welsh don't like it because they hate their regions and the refs always favour the Irish but that's a different story.

I have been told the disdain for the Heino was the year when Leinster beat Ulster in the final and Edinburgh made the SF.

It was that summer the English team owners threw a wobbler

I do wonder if the disdain for the Rabo is mixed up with the PRL / HC stuff as the PRL seem to have tried to claim the Pro 12 have an unfair advantage.

HammerofThunor wrote:..

Although I will admit that the average number of wins across all the teams in each league is very very similar.

#

Given both leagues have 12 teams the average number of wins is likely to be very similar.

rodders wrote:The disdain for the Heino came when Leinster started to dominate the HEC. There were two watershed moments - Leinster overturning Northampton in the Final and then Ulster hammering the Tigers at Ravenhill two seasons ago.

The big English clubs couldn't accept being humbled at the hands of the Irish so had to clammer for excuses at why they were so far off the pace, so the RABO became the scapegoat.

The Welsh don't like it because they hate their regions and the refs always favour the Irish but that's a different story.

They seemed to have moved on from complaining about the league and I am now seeing loads of Northampton fans complaining that Ireland only have 4 teams.

The Pro12 has a host of issues:

Teams are often understrength. Yes this affects all leagues but the Pro12 more than others.

It lacks real rivalries

Most teams lack support, especially on the road. Attendances outside Ireland are poor as are TV audiences.

Teams tend to coast through the league. With no relegation, most teams guaranteed a spot in the HC and the playoffs meaning you only have to hit the top 4 the intensity and drive just isnt there.

Many Welsh still havent got over the whole regions thing

The Italians are a joke

The focus for the participating nations is the national side, then the HC then the league. This is not so much the case in France and England. There are a fair proportion of fans who do not follow international rugby at all, the support for clubs on the whole is more passionate.



A "good" league isnt just about the quality of players (that too is dipping in the Pro12 with the big name foreigners leaving along with many home made star). Its about how much people actually care about it and how hard the teams are competing. Theres always a stink of the Pro12 that its a bit of a sham.
The closeness of the P12 vs Jeff is turned on its head this year, most years its been the opposite thats the case. I do think the Pro12 has made strides in the right direction, especially re: the playoffs which means that the best sides actually have to beat each other at close to full strength to win the title and that less teams lose interest after 10 weeks. But everyone, the players included, will tell you it is not as intense a competition as the Jeff.

TJ youre well known for your obsessive one eyed flag waving for "celtic" rugby and disdain for anything English.

The pro12 is a woeful "competition". Local derbies in international windows, local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before the game, same old teams getting advantaged in international windows. Little chance of fans getting to many away games outside your own country.

Pathetic joke of a league.

Haven't the English basically showed disdain for it since 1997?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

rodders wrote:The disdain for the Heino came when Leinster started to dominate the HEC. There were two watershed moments - Leinster overturning Northampton in the Final and then Ulster hammering the Tigers at Ravenhill two seasons ago.

The big English clubs couldn't accept being humbled at the hands of the Irish so had to clammer for excuses at why they were so far off the pace, so the RABO became the scapegoat.

The Welsh don't like it because they hate their regions and the refs always favour the Irish but that's a different story.

They seemed to have moved on from complaining about the league and I am now seeing loads of Northampton fans complaining that Ireland only have 4 teams.

Move with the times guys. The complaint now is that the entirety of European rugby is run from Dublin for the Irish and that the IRB waded in on their side because the French guy in charge also happens to be employed in Dublin by the body they wanted rid of.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The pro12 is a woeful "competition". Local derbies in international windows, local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before the game, same old teams getting advantaged in international windows. Little chance of fans getting to many away games outside your own country.

Pathetic joke of a league.

And this is exactly the sort of post I meant.

Edit - do you actually watch any pro 12 games?

Truth hurts

Perhpas - but that is not the truth. Do you watch the Pro 12?

Chunky Norwich wrote:The pro12 is a woeful "competition". Local derbies in international windows, local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before the game, same old teams getting advantaged in international windows. Little chance of fans getting to many away games outside your own country.

Pathetic joke of a league.

   bit harsh.

[quote="TJ"]

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Edit - do you actually watch any pro 12 games?

season ticket holder. So 11 home games and 2 away games (Cardiff and Newport) = 13 a year.

geoff998rugby wrote:I have been told the disdain for the Heino was the year when Leinster beat Ulster in the final and Edinburgh made the SF.

It was that summer the English team owners threw a wobbler

Maybe Geoff but to me Mallinder's post final comments about his players being tired due to having a tougher season than Leinster, were the first inference by the English that they felt the format of the Leagues were impacting the results - the following season then each result was scrutinised a lot more, which is why I make reference to Ulster thrashing Leicester - I recall lots of comments about Ulster resting players in the league after that game.

Lolz @ Peter

TJ wrote:Lolz @ Peter

He's speaking 100% sense.

Rodders - but has we have shown all teams rest players / rotate squads to a similar extent.

We don't, I think we've put out our strongest fit squad in almost every single match this season

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The Pro12 has a host of issues:

Teams are often understrength. Yes this affects all leagues but the Pro12 more than others.

It lacks real rivalries

Most teams lack support, especially on the road. Attendances outside Ireland are poor as are TV audiences.

Teams tend to coast through the league. With no relegation, most teams guaranteed a spot in the HC and the playoffs meaning you only have to hit the top 4 the intensity and drive just isnt there.

Many Welsh still havent got over the whole regions thing

The Italians are a joke

The focus for the participating nations is the national side, then the HC then the league. This is not so much the case in France and England. There are a fair proportion of fans who do not follow international rugby at all, the support for clubs on the whole is more passionate.



A "good" league isnt just about the quality of players (that too is dipping in the Pro12 with the big name foreigners leaving along with many home made star). Its about how much people actually care about it and how hard the teams are competing. Theres always a stink of the Pro12 that its a bit of a sham.
The closeness of the P12 vs Jeff is turned on its head this year, most years its been the opposite thats the case. I do think the Pro12 has made strides in the right direction, especially re: the playoffs which means that the best sides actually have to beat each other at close to full strength to win the title and that less teams lose interest after 10 weeks. But everyone, the players included, will tell you it is not as intense a competition as the Jeff.

TJ youre well known for your obsessive one eyed flag waving for "celtic" rugby and disdain for anything English.

Some good points in there but a lot do nonsense too.

The Italians are not a joke. Yes this has been a poor season for Treviso (bloody good one for Zebre though) but last season Treviso drew with the eventual league winners away from home. Treviso are also one of (I think) only two teams to beat the league leaders this season but the coach situation has seriously hampered them. Last season we had 3 teams capable of the top spot with 2 games left iirc. As things stand we have 5 realistic contenders this season at the moment. I agree that qualification for Europe would help the league massively but that had been agreed to. Last season this would have seen (joke) Treviso qualify on merit.

Another reference to teams (presumably Irish) coasting is way off the mark. They work bloody hard to get where they are and if you consider ulsters representation in Ireland's 6N squad I can tell you that Marshall, Cave, Tuohy, Diack, Trimble, Jackson have played as much as any AP teams internationals this season and those that have played less Bowe, Henderson and Best have been injured and herring and Fitzpatrick are 2nd choice.

I'm not bashing the AP here. It's clearly a well run league but that's no reason to spout nonsense about the pro12.

TJ wrote:Rodders - but has we have shown all teams rest players / rotate squads to a similar extent.

Cobblers

Standulstermen wrote:

(bloody good one for Zebre though)

    

Played 12 Won 2

Chunky - no its not. Its been looked at many times and rotation is similar for all teams.

Oh - and can we keep it civil please? Make your points, debate and argue but please dont just aimlessly slag folk / teams off.

TJ wrote:Chunky - no its not.  Its been looked at many times and rotation is similar for all teams.

Even if it was, you're playing against teams that have an unfair disadvantage. In November an Irish province had 1 player missing due to international callups. They played against a Welsh region that had 10 players missing due to international call ups.

It's a joke league because the differences in protocol, player release time, distance, squad depth, and union support between the teams is so vast.

Joke league.

TJ wrote:Chunky - no its not.  Its been looked at many times and rotation is similar for all teams.

Don't say all teams! I don't think we've rested a player yet!

Chunky Norwich wrote:The pro12 is a woeful "competition". Local derbies in international windows, local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before the game, same old teams getting advantaged in international windows. Little chance of fans getting to many away games outside your own country.

Pathetic joke of a league.

 
OK, lets break this down
 
A) Local derbies in international windows
B) Local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before games
C) Same old teams getting advantaged in international windows
http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/index.php - could you give examples of the above using this season fixtures ?
 
D) Little chance of fans getting to many away games. Aye, you're probably right there, but how many Bath fans went up (not many looking at the 4, 616 attendance), or how many Exeter fans are going up, to the Falcons ? It's not so much the different countries, it's just distance.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

TJ wrote:Chunky - no its not.  Its been looked at many times and rotation is similar for all teams.

Even if it was, you're playing against teams that have an unfair disadvantage. In November an Irish province had 1 player missing due to international callups. They played against a Welsh region that had 10 players missing due to international call ups.

Sounds like a match between Worcester and Leicester in the International window to me - absolutely no difference

Please stop quoting that chunky character. Those of us with the good sense to ignore him have to see it

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

(bloody good one for Zebre though)

    

Played 12 Won 2

Worcester played 12 Won 0

Chunky Norwich wrote:
It's a joke league because the differences in protocol, player release time, distance, squad depth,  and union support between the teams is so vast.

These are the challenges of playing in a cross border competition, its the same for the Heino or whatever plan the PRL have in mind be it the RCC, or anglo- welsh or anglo French league.

We either acknowledge this and move forward or we scrap the notion of multi country competitions in Europe.

At the end of the day every team has 15 players on the field and play under the same rules so that's as even as you are ever going to get in sport.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The pro12 is a woeful "competition". Local derbies in international windows,.

That is absolutel cr.ap

There is not one match in this year fixtures in November, February and early March between 2 teams from the same country

If you are going to have a dig try using facts not fiction.

Standulstermen wrote:Please stop quoting that chunky character. Those of us with the good sense to ignore him have to see it

Indeed - the rest of us despite differing viewpoints have tried to discuss the issue I raised in a civil manner

The Pro12 cannot be considered a joke as it has the players from in theory four test sides but for all the strength of attendances at the irish provinces, the rest remain despite improvement too low to be sustainable and hence the reliance on euro competition. That model has to be changed but the time horizon keeps being put off.
The window of opportunity is closing. The French league tv deal of one hundred million euro a year is the start. Any bets the AP won't start a bidding war been Sky and BT next time for something comparable ?

PenfroPete wrote:
 
OK, lets break this down
 
A) Local derbies in international windows
B) Local derby fixtures not being arranged until 3 weeks before games
C) Same old teams getting advantaged in international windows
http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/index.php - could you give examples of the above using this season fixtures ?
 
D) Little chance of fans getting to many away games. Aye, you're probably right there, but how many Bath fans went up (not many looking at the 4, 616 attendance), or how many Exeter fans are going up, to the Falcons ? It's not so much the different countries, it's just distance.

a) this one from last season particularly sticks in the mind. look at the line ups. They are pathetic.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=173507

b) see Ospreys v scarlets this season. date wasn't arranged until 3 and a half weeks before the game. pathetic.

c) Yup. the fixtures are more or less the same every season. That means the Dragons and Connacht for instance, play the same teams in the international window all the time. The teams they play against lose far more players then the Dragons or Connacht. Therefore it's a disadvantage on the same teams year in year out. I think the Scarlets have played away to connacht in the November test window 8 times out of the last 10 seasons.

Joke league.

Zebre to me showed one of the advantages of a ringfenced league. A new team last year and got cuffed but were able to build for this year as no relegation. This year they have been competitive.

Recwatcher wrote:The Pro12 cannot be considered a joke as it has the players from in theory four test sides but for all the strength of attendances at the irish provinces,  the rest remain despite  improvement too low to be sustainable and hence the reliance on euro competition.  That model has to be changed but the time horizon keeps being put off.
The window of opportunity is closing.  The French league tv deal of one hundred million euro a year is the start. Any bets the AP won't start a bidding war been Sky and BT next time for something comparable ?

Great post.

Golden wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

(bloody good one for Zebre though)

    

Played 12 Won 2

Worcester played 12 Won 0

Who has said Worcester have had a "bloody good season" ?

I quite like the league, in general.  And I think as a league it is on a par with the Jeff, and T14.  However there are obvious flaws with it.
 
The league is spread across four countries (technically five, sorry), and from a personal point of view in order to get to anyway game outside of Wales a flight is generally involved (or ferry).  And the same applies for their supporters coming to games here.  This straight away racks up the cost of being a supporter.  And is one big reason for the lack of attendances.  If you take the regional average attendance, considering that there is practically no away support they are pretty good attendances, and then look at the derby games and they are sell outs as they are easy to attend.
 
The way the matches are organised etc, is very much at the hands of the beeb, whilst that is the nature of the beast in pro sport, the Rabo is currently not the best at getting fixtures released.  And again given the distances needing to be travelled for matches it would be better to have them released asap than almost at the last minute.
 
At this current point in time with the player drain to france, it is easier to slag down the league, claiming players want higher quality games, rather than admitting that there is no way we can pay that much money, and also they are not getting high quality games, they are actually getting more time sat on a bench next to another mercenary.
 
Referees are no the best in the league, we see big derby games being reffed by a debutant.  Back in the day we used to have to have neutral refs, like in the hec, however that meant that the Scottish sides always had good refs for their games, but the Welsh and Irish would be really happy if they got to have a ref as good as David, or Malcom Changleng, as the rest of the Scottish refs were even worse!  This lead to us ditching the neutral ref rule, and now every game there seems to be cries of national bias from the referee, his assistants, or the TMO.  Generally this is way off the mark, and the ref/assistant/tmo is just a bit poor.
 
The thing about the Irish not taking it serious always makes me laugh, us welsh are using that as an excuse for wanting to jump ship.  But the Irish are kicking our backsides in the Rabo, they are (bar Connacht) streets ahead of us at the moment, so I can't really see how them resting players is effecting us at all. Its us and the WRU resting/injuring players that is making our regions look so shambolic.