Why the disdain for the Pro12?

First topic message reminder :

Chaps - I know its a bit controversial but try to keep it civil please

Some posters on here show great disdain for the Po12 disparaging it on dubious grounds.  Often without actually watching any / many games

Its a very competitive league with the top teams losing more than the AP and the bottom teams winning more.  Despite no relegation teams fight hard all season.  Many great competative games with some great rivalries building up and regular derby games.

For example rotation of players.  Exeter made 10 changes from the team played in their last league game for the team that played Glasgow in the HC.  I really do not see this supposed "resting" of players in the Pro 12 is any different to the rotation of AP squads.

Pro 12 teams do at least as well ( considered as a league) as do the top 14 or AP in the HC

Quality of games is high as entertainment and arguably better on average that the AP and certainly better than the top14 although the AP has improved greatly over the last couple of seasons with less attritional negative gameplans in evidence ( although I do only watch the games I think will be good)

I enjoy watching top 14 and AP games


Why do some posters make such disparaging comments?  I am genuinely interested in this.  Is it jealousy?  Is it fear?  

Please keep it civil chaps.  Ta

Edit - the top 4 teams in the Pro12 are separated by 6 points, in the AP its 18.  Bottom 4 teams in the Pro 12 separated by 10 points AP 15

Edit again - more try bonus points in the Ap. less losing bonus points - again pointing to a more competative league

They would be setting up a league outside the sanction of the controlling International Body.
I was wrong in that the PRL would also be sued as well as they would be party to that unsanctioned league.
The eRFU situation would depend on the stance they take.

If it is an unsanctioned tournament anyone who is party to that tournament would be subject to a court action under EU law

the WRU would only be liable if they do not provide 4 credible teams to the Pro12 but that is a totally different matter

i honestly dont know where you get this from.

no court can force the PRL to compete in the HEC. they withdrew legitimately.

no court can force the RRW teams to compete in the rabo. if it is the WRU that are contractually and commercially bound into the Rabo (and we dont know the truth of that to be fair) then they could be sued, potentially, but that still wouldnt force the RRW to play.

doesnt matter what they do or dont do with sanctioned or unsanctioned tournaments. for example the prl probably wont play in any competition at all next year.

and you can't sue someone for playing in an unsanctioned competition unless they are pretending it is sanctioned. all you can do is stop them using your referees, calling it rugby union, and prevent them from re-entering the IRb version. if it's unsanctioned, its not part of IRB jurisdiction and therefore nothing to do with them.

if the irb were trying to stop teams from competing in unsanctioned tournaments then that would 100% be a case of attempting to restrain trade.

the whole argument you and others pop up with to why its not restraint of trade is that rrw and prl could go off and set up their own unsanctioned version no problem.

suggest you pick one position as you cant have it both ways.

quinsforever wrote:if the irb were trying to stop teams from competing in unsanctioned tournaments then that would 100% be a case of attempting to restrain trade.

the whole argument you and others pop up with to why its not restraint of trade is that rrw and prl could go off and set up their own unsanctioned version no problem.

suggest you pick one position as you cant have it both ways.

Agreed. well said.

I don't suggest that the IRB would or can stop anyone leaving on to play in another league be it some sort of Jeff plus RRW or a rugby league side - the point is that said league would not be recognised as a part of Rugby Union (as per the Rugby League) even though it was played under the same Laws.
What the IRB can do is issue sanctions against teams and individuals who take part in a breakaway league, for example a referee who went to such a league could be disqualified from refereeing at any IRB sanctioned games, a player who was a member of such a league could be disbarred from any IRB games, e.g. internationals or club compeitions under the sanction of the IRB or from holding dual contracts with any IRB affiliated club at the same time, they could even ban them from ever playing in IRB rugby again.
(IMHO) This would not be a restraint of trade as the persons/teams involved have their own breakaway league to play in all the IRB are saying is these are the rules of "our" part of rugby.
They can have a breakaway league but what they would have to do is set up their own structure - governing body, disciplinary process, referee training, coaching. etc.
This is basically the same principle that FIFA/UEFA employed to stop the super rich football clubs from dissapearing off to a "Super League".
And that's not even to mention the legal can of worms that you open in respect of keeping the English Championship clubs on side to let the Welsh in at their expense.

As far as i know the WRU have to approve an league that is played in their area. Unless the RRW are playing all games outside of Wales.

LNR cant do anything without FFR aproval. They are in the EU and EU law tops country law.

As a result I can't see how any club can force something through against union wishes.
The london welsh issue was because they are allowed up but then they are not. No Rabo country club not in the Rabo could take legal action and force its way into the Rabo.

Brendan wrote:As far as i know the WRU have to approve an league that is played in their area.  Unless the RRW are playing all games outside of Wales.

LNR cant do anything without FFR aproval.  They are in the EU and EU law tops country law.

As a result I can't see how any club can force something through against union wishes.
[]bThe london welsh issue was because they are allowed up but then they are not.[/b]  No Rabo country club not in the Rabo could take legal action and force its way into the Rabo.

  I think you got that the wrong way round. They're weren't allowed up and the law made it so they were.

Just to clarify the RFU enforces minimum standards and London Welsh didn't meet them (and applied beyond the submission date for promotion but that's a separate issue). The judges ruled that the minimum standards breached the competition law so they couldn't be used to block Welsh's promotion.

So a union's decision was decided to breach European law and they had to withdraw it. Bare in mind the minimum standards are there for the 'greater good' (stops super rich guys buying a load of players without investing in infrastructure and then buggering off).

The issue was that the same law does not apply to all teams so unfair that welsh would have to apply it but their compeditors did not.

If all the other teams had had to follow it there would have been no issue.

The salary cap is not illeagal because all have to abide by it. If some did not have to follow it then it would be. I am suprised the shares have never been brought up in the Welsh case as in for a penny in for a pound

Italain's talking of a 3rd team in Pro12 - either Rome or Milan HOWEVER seems conditional on them being full members and not paying for the privleage

They should be encouraged

geoff998rugby wrote:Italain's talking of a 3rd team in Pro12 - either Rome or Milan HOWEVER seems conditional on them being full members and not paying for the privleage

They should be encouraged

Will that be a Pro-13 growth, or a Pro-12 with the Welsh reducing their numbers by one?

Doesn't specify but could get the Welsh off the hook if Roger wants to go down to 3 teams.

I do,vaguely, recall talk of there being 4 Italian teams to bring the league up to 14 when they first joined and the extra teams being added in 2016 and 2018.
This was conditional on the initial 2 teams working (no idea of how that would be measured)

Could be wrong on that though

If it is a growth in the league then I would be all for it (although I am rather sceptical of all things I hear in recent times). Treviso, and even Zebre, have been a real gain for the league, and have added some real competition to the mid and lower table. The addition of another Italian team would see them become whipping boys for a few seasons, but I have a feeling they will probably end up like Zebre, a match that is you should win, but are know you can't take too lightly.

Hmmm not sure about that, i would prefer them to find a decent coach for Treviso and cut all their dead wood (10-15 players) and re-improve them.

Zebre are in the right direction.

why would the two existing italian teams agree to keep playing and paying their EUR3m entrance fee, if a new, third italian team, competing for the same domestic talent, wouldnt have to pay that entrance fee?

in other words, letting a third italian side in is going to cost the rest of the rabo members EUR6m.

so not sure i think that particularly likely. unless i missed rab12 agreeing to waive the EUR6m already?

It's up for negotiation obviously quins. They've come to the end of their initial agreement to participate in the league. Much like the PRL and the HC, they'll now either negotiate terms to stay or go their separate ways. I'm very, very opposed to the league going beyond 12 teams. If that means the Italians have to move on, so be it. The most important thing is that we secure a future European tournament in some form- if we do that, there's no room for the extra games in the calendar.

The only way I can see it working is if we go up to 14 teams and return to the two conference system. Anything over 12 teams in a straight up league is too much if the current test schedule remains the same and a European Cup in a similar format is agreed upon.

I dont think Dragons signing Duncan Bell will have done much for the perception of the league.

He's not full time - he's there to help out with a current injury/red card crisis. It's not like the England team have props in abundance when on or 2 get injure is it ?

He did a job though.

Tell you what when Stuart Lancaster calls up someone from National Division 3 Ill accept your point.

The league is getting quite stratified now. The top teams are very good, the bottom ones are not and the gap seems to be growing between the top half and the bottom half of the table.

superb. Absolutely superb:

Dragons v Edinburgh: Rearranged for Thursday 3rd April
The RaboDirect PRO12 match between Newport Gwent Dragons and Edinburgh Rugby at Rodney Parade, which was postponed earlier this month, has been rearranged for Thursday 3rd April KO 18:30. The game on Thursday 3rd April will be live on S4C.

Tbh, they don't want to compete with the Heineken Cup who have all the prime viewing slots covered that weekend.

Notch wrote:Tbh, they don't want to compete with the Heineken Cup who have all the prime viewing slots covered that weekend.

There's the Amlin on the Friday night. or 1.30pm on the sunday.

But nope. The worst league in the world had to go and put it at half 6 on a Thursday.

A sick joke

[quote="Chunky Norwich"]superb. Absolutely superb:

Dragons v Edinburgh: Rearranged for Thursday 3rd April
The RaboDirect PRO12 match between Newport Gwent Dragons and Edinburgh Rugby at Rodney Parade, which was postponed earlier this month, has been rearranged for [b]Thursday 3rd April KO 18:30.[/b] The game on Thursday 3rd April will be live on S4C.[/quote]

Its got to fit somewhere

Allty wrote:

Its got to fit somewhere

I should be friday or saturday. The notion that massive crowd numbers or tv audience is going to be lost to the Stade Francais Amlin game on the Friday night is absolutely vile.

Simple question Chunky - are Sunday fixtures acceptable to you?

The reason I ask is that in the Aviva about 22% of all fixtures are on a Sunday.

Notch wrote:Tbh, they don't want to compete with the Heineken Cup who have all the prime viewing slots covered that weekend.

It's probably more to do with at least one of the Newports playing home that weekend (RFC or County)? Doesn't do me any favours though, I'll probably have to miss that one (another game lost off the Season Ticket)

Found what I suspect is the reason Newport RFC are playing at home to Pontypridd on the Saturday and I suspect it has something to do with the club wanting a days break between matches

As before it is not the league that is to blame but the teams and the broadcasters.
It is lack of organization within Wales that is the issue not the wicked league being unfair to them.

geoff998rugby wrote:Simple question Chunky - are Sunday fixtures acceptable to you?

The reason I ask is that in the Aviva about 22% of all fixtures are on a Sunday.

No, geoff, any fixture scheduled on a day that ends in a 'y' is completely unacceptable to Chunky and is further evidence of a (mostly) Irish conspiracy and a shameful and inept league

Vladimir Putin is vile. Thursday evening fixtures are unfortunate.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Tell you what when Stuart Lancaster calls up someone from National Division 3  Ill accept your point.

When he stops looking at rugby league players I'll consider yours.

[quote="Chunky Norwich"][quote="Allty"]

Its got to fit somewhere [/quote]

I should be friday or saturday. The notion that massive crowd numbers or tv audience is going to be lost to the Stade Francais Amlin game on the Friday night is absolutely vile.[/quote]

I agree but there is always such a mess of fixtures at the end of every season and its probable that this was the only day that suited both teams

I'm not sure why the Rabbo schedule enrages him so much...

munkian wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Tell you what when Stuart Lancaster calls up someone from National Division 3  Ill accept your point.

When he stops looking at rugby league players I'll consider yours.

When he signs a part time 39 year old rugby league prop who retired form professional sport two years ago Ill consider your second point

Chris Kirwan (Argus writer) thinks it is to do with Sky's coverage of an Amlin game and s4c coverage can't clash with that.

My only problem with it is that its on so early, half an hour later and I could've made the trip

munkian wrote:I'm not sure why the Rabbo schedule enrages him so much...

Because it's the Rabo league, methinks. Maybe hasn't worked out that broadcasters have the biggest say in schedules.

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:I'm not sure why the Rabbo schedule enrages him so much...

Because it's the Rabo league, methinks. Maybe hasn't worked out that broadcasters have the biggest say in schedules.

And because in rough order of evilness, the following are to blame for the current regional struggles in Wales:
(1) Lewis
(2) the rest of the WRU
(3) the Irish
(4) the rest of the Rabo teams

but definitely in no way, never, not anyhow, the regions themselves - hope that's clear

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:I'm not sure why the Rabbo schedule enrages him so much...

Because it's the Rabo league, methinks. Maybe hasn't worked out that broadcasters have the biggest say in schedules.

And because in rough order of evilness, the following are to blame for the current regional struggles in Wales:
(1) Lewis
(2) the rest of the WRU
(3) the Irish
(4) the rest of the Rabo teams

but definitely in no way, never, not anyhow, the regions themselves - hope that's clear

Oh yes, Asbo. FACT! .....   

Munchkin wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:I'm not sure why the Rabbo schedule enrages him so much...

Because it's the Rabo league, methinks. Maybe hasn't worked out that broadcasters have the biggest say in schedules.

And because in rough order of evilness, the following are to blame for the current regional struggles in Wales:
(1) Lewis
(2) the rest of the WRU
(3) the Irish
(4) the rest of the Rabo teams

but definitely in no way, never, not anyhow, the regions themselves - hope that's clear

Oh yes, Asbo. FACT! .....      

End of

takes two to frak consensually

if its not consensual, then you can tell who's doing the frakking, and who's on the receiving end, by who's still smiling...

and that's not the regions...

What a brilliant decision by the Italian linesman and the Italian TMO (at the time it was said to be obstruction that ruled out the try I believe, but I see the corrupt Pro12 are now using a non existant forward pass as the excuse)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9qtz7Y-Q8

Corrupt, joke league.

wow that really didnt look forward.

was there really an italian linesman and tmo for the blues v zebre match?

quinsforever wrote:wow that really didnt look forward.

was there really an italian linesman and tmo for the blues v zebre match?

Nationality doesn't come into it for a league. For instance, with the exception of JP Doyle, probably all of the Aviva match officials are English. On Saturday, in the Scarlets game, the ref was Deadly Dudly (Phillips) who is a Leinster ref. You seriously think he would prefer Munster to beat Scarlets?

Not in a million years.

My favourite Celtic League refereeing decision of all time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8553060.stm


Joke league.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:I'm not sure why the Rabbo schedule enrages him so much...

Because it's the Rabo league, methinks. Maybe hasn't worked out that broadcasters have the biggest say in schedules.

And because in rough order of evilness, the following are to blame for the current regional struggles in Wales:
(1) Lewis
(2) the rest of the WRU
(3) the Irish
(4) the rest of the Rabo teams

but definitely in no way, never, not anyhow, the regions themselves - hope that's clear

Which of those would have a self interest in seeing the regions fail?

In order
1) Lewis
2) The rest of the WRU
3) The Irish and fellow rabble
4) Deffo not the regions themselves

quinsforever wrote:wow that really didnt look forward.

was there really an italian linesman and tmo for the blues v zebre match?

Aviva and top14 are national competitions so who cares what the nationality of refs is. Rabo, Heineken, 6N, RWC are "international" competitions. will become even more critical once qualification from Rabo to HC is NOT automatic and so the Rabo matches become more important.

Sin é wrote: On Saturday, in the Scarlets game, the ref was Deadly Dudly (Phillips) who is a Leinster ref. You seriously think he would prefer Munster to beat Scarlets?
.

This was his reaction to the TMO disallowing the Munster try. Doesn't look like a man who wants Munster to lose

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote: On Saturday, in the Scarlets game, the ref was Deadly Dudly (Phillips) who is a Leinster ref. You seriously think he would prefer Munster to beat Scarlets?
.

This was his reaction to the TMO disallowing the Munster try. Doesn't look like a man who wants Munster to lose

    gotta love TV

Chunky Norwich wrote:My favourite Celtic League refereeing decision of all time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8553060.stm


Joke league.

I think the English championship would be the right level for your lot, Chunky - is there a deal to be done there?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I think the English championship would be the right level for your lot, Chunky - is there a deal to be done there?

I'd bit your hand off for it rather than play in the Crapo12.

As long as there was promotion