One thing I don't understand..

First topic message reminder :

According to scrum.com the IRB has to approve the new tournament the NLR and PRL is setting up.

The Celtic Unions and Italian rugby union said they will only join a tournament that is sanctioned by the IRB.

Essentially the big difference I see is the French and English wants to have a club run tournament, and the powers that be says it has to be union run.

What is the difference and why is it an issue?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

One thing I don't understand..

Chinese writing!  

Aw i know...ill leave now...  

cracked that one on the previous page. no one laughed then either

I understand about psychopaths, no system should really allow them to single-handedly do this much damage, unless one managed to get to the top of several important groups, which would be highly unlucky. Also, they would be particularly stupid psychopaths unable to focus on a long-term goal

St John The Enforcer wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

One thing I don't understand..

Chinese writing!  

Aw i know...ill leave now...  

cracked that one on the previous page. no one laughed then either

I did, on the inside anyway.

TJ wrote:If you understand the point about psychopathic traits then the failure to negotiate becomes easier to understand.  4% are psychopaths as defined by a score on a  scale, many may more have traits without the full condition.  Its a spectrum disorder like autism

arrogance, lack of empathy, ability to lie, inability to understand others, ruthlessness etc.

to have these traits almost seems to be a prerequisite for success in business

I do fully understand that. I'd also make a guess that the numbers for the population as a whole for 'potential' psychopaths (as at least having the potential to develop some traits) isnt far off 4% either.

Some kinds of business do seem to actively encourage 'psycopathic' traits its true, but what that often means in practice is you end up with a bunch of guys /bumholes who are more prepared to gamble than more sensible people. Some gamble and win and are hugely successful and visible. Most crash and burn invisibly. I'd also argue that having an inability to understand others is not a very useful trait in business at all.

Using a number like that is like saying because 4% of tigers are household pets all tigers are safe in your home.

Solid8 wrote:Scrumpy; I think your eagerness to wind other people up has been hampered by an inability to read.  I have emboldened the important part about TJ's statement for you, if your are still having difficulty understanding what it says I could write it pho·neti·cal·ly for you!

 
 
Maybe you too should read previous post before jumping in!  
 
The best Georgians and Romanians already play for other clubs in Europe so a couple of new teams containing these guys wouldn't be possible in the HC. Don't forget he would rather have weak Georgian and Romainan clubS to replace English and French clubs in the HC.

The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

No - I want Georgia and Romania to play as national sides in the HC - at least until Georgia win it  

broadlandboy wrote:That sounds like the ERC

Not so much, bb, the ERC is a bastion of blazerdom and would fail dismally on a number of those traits!

lostinwales wrote:I do fully understand that. I'd also make a guess that the numbers for the population as a whole for 'potential' psychopaths (as at least having the potential to develop some traits) isnt far off 4% either.

.

1% in the general population are psychopaths as defined.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:That sounds like the ERC

Not so much, bb, the ERC is a bastion of blazerdom and would fail dismally on a number of those traits!

This is why the mutual misunderstanding.  two diffident mindsets each unable to understand the other.

anyway its an irrelevance - I only mentioned it to help people understand why the negotiation went so badly wrong. Understand this point and its easier to understand the differing stances

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

No - I want Georgia and  Romania to play as national sides in the HC - at least until Georgia win it  

Never going to happen.

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

No - I want Georgia and  Romania to play as national sides in the HC - at least until Georgia win it  

Never going to happen.

Why, becuase the PRL do not want it to ?  

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

No - I want Georgia and  Romania to play as national sides in the HC - at least until Georgia win it  

Never going to happen.

Romania already do this, the Romanian National team as it stands has 5 players in its squad that aren't playing in Romania and thus eligible for the composite side of Bucharesti Wolves. One of them is a Top 14 player (Ion, for Perpignan)

Whynot? If you are serious about spread the game to these countries then its a way forward. Of course the big clubs would have to give up a bit - make a sacrifice to help the lessor.

Georgia could put forward a much better team, but you'd need to force the T14 clubs to release their players for another "club" to use in a Club competition, and I'm fairly sure that's utterly illegal

LordDowlais wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

No - I want Georgia and  Romania to play as national sides in the HC - at least until Georgia win it  

Never going to happen.

Why, becuase the PRL do not want it to ?  

Bruce said no.

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

But then that's not much different than the situation with Bucharesti Wolves that has been mentioned. The Bucharesti Wolves will never progress from where they are now unless they play together regularly in a professional league which offers genuine opportunities for advancement.
If they were to join the Rabo as it is they wouldn't be able to compete, but the creation of a 2nd tier might be viable alternative for unions outside of the 6Ns. Probably dreaming, but other than difficulties with funding I can't think why it couldn't be a serious option?

Munchkin wrote:

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

But then that's not much different than the situation with Bucharesti Wolves that has been mentioned. The Bucharesti Wolves will never progress from where they are now unless they play together regularly in a professional league which offers genuine opportunities for advancement.
If they were to join the Rabo as it is they wouldn't be able to compete, but the creation of a 2nd tier might be viable alternative for unions outside of the 6Ns. Probably dreaming, but other than difficulties with funding I can't think why it couldn't be a serious option?

Against Championship Clubs they'd probably grow

Could we find enough teams for Rabo division2? needs 10 at least. We cannot weaken the italian or scots teams in div1. I know Scotland would find it difficult to produce more teams

Funding is the crux, would the present Rabo unions be prepared to give enough money to support the growth from a smaller pot when history shows that they don't

ChequeredJersey wrote:Georgia could put forward a much better team, but you'd need to force the T14 clubs to release their players for another "club" to use in a Club competition, and I'm fairly sure that's utterly illegal

dunno about illegal but it would need their agreement. giving up a bit of what they have to help others. does the aviva continue to play during the HC weekends? Youre only talking 6 weekends a year.

broadlandboy wrote:Funding is the crux, would the present Rabo unions be prepared to give enough money to support the growth from a smaller pot when history shows that they don't

Scotland has some history in this - the pacific islands tour for example. We didn't make nay money out of that but we did have some good games and developed some players. NOt everyting comes down to money for everyone. We also got some great kudos from that - something with value that cannot be measured in money

Scrumpy wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:The Georgians and Romanians would need to have their players released for the games.  a not insurmountable problem if you wanted to make that structure work

No - I want Georgia and  Romania to play as national sides in the HC - at least until Georgia win it  

Never going to happen.

Why, becuase the PRL do not want it to ?  

Bruce said no.

Everyone's ignoring him now. Even the PRL are starting to cringe every time he opens his attention seeking gob.

The aviva doesn't but don't know about the T14. Also, if the French were in the competition, they would need compensation to give up players like Gorgodze as they would want them playing for them (and as they contract them, they'd be right to want it ) and if they weren't involved they'd probably want them for the T14. So that's another money factor

Indeed there would be issues but how much would it cost in terms of the total profits from the HC? would 10% of the HC money be enough?

How come Italy had/have to pay to get into the Rabo & take less money than the other Unions.
Seems a case of do as the Rabo Unions say rather than what they do. At least the PRL are consistent in wanting to do as they do

The Celtic nations have no interest in an inclusive European competition they have refused to discuss a third tier for developing nations. All they are interested in is the 3 million per club their clubs receive which keeps them afloat. If the Franglo clubs pull out the Rabo clubs will be bankrupt inside a season without major Union intervention. The French clubs have already states no interest in joining a tournament without the English.

The Welsh and Scottish unions have already said they will not discipline clubs for entering the PRL LNR comp but they won't condone it. Everyone other than TJ wants the European comp to continue and with a tweak or two I think it will, starting with leagues being able to negotiate their own contracts and two Rabo sides going to the Amlin instead of the HEC.

LondonTiger wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

One thing I don't understand..

Chinese writing!  

Aw i know...ill leave now...  

cracked that one on the previous page. no one laughed then either

I did, on the inside anyway.

Ah my apologies...i was being lazy and not following the full thread  

formerly known as Sam wrote:The Celtic nations have no interest in an inclusive European competition they have refused to discuss a third tier for developing nations. All they are interested in is the 3 million per club their clubs receive which keeps them afloat. If the Franglo clubs pull out the Rabo clubs will be bankrupt inside a season without major Union intervention. The French clubs have already states no interest in joining a tournament without the English.

The Welsh and Scottish unions have already said they will not discipline clubs for entering the PRL LNR comp but they won't condone it. Everyone other than TJ wants the European comp to continue and with a tweak or two I think it will, starting with leagues being able to negotiate their own contracts and two Rabo sides going to the Amlin instead of the HEC.

I will bet you my mortgage that the Welsh regions would go bankrupt without the mighty English. The WRU are making record profits, and to keep team Wales in the black they need the regions, and as I have said on other threads, there are already contingency plans for this.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The Celtic nations have no interest in an inclusive European competition they have refused to discuss a third tier for developing nations. All they are interested in is the 3 million per club their clubs receive which keeps them afloat. If the Franglo clubs pull out the Rabo clubs will be bankrupt inside a season without major Union intervention. The French clubs have already states no interest in joining a tournament without the English.

The Welsh and Scottish unions have already said they will not discipline clubs for entering the PRL LNR comp but they won't condone it. Everyone other than TJ wants the European comp to continue and with a tweak or two I think it will, starting with leagues being able to negotiate their own contracts and two Rabo sides going to the Amlin instead of the HEC.

Utter nonsense. I want a European cup to continue and it will. Perhaps without the PRL clubs tho. The RCC is dead in the water. Its not going to happen. You have to accept that.

Have you got a quote on that position from the Scots and Welsh? It seems very different to anything I have seen. NO chance the Rabo unions will go bankrupt and you still seem to be under the misunderstanding of the setup. Most rabo teams are a part of their unions.

Also the scots Rabo teams do not get 3 million apiece from the HC. the SRU get 4 million or so which is used as a part of their income. the SRUs total income goes to support the game at all levels. some of it is used to fnance the pro teams.

Does more money go to the Scotish teams than the SRU get from ERC, if so
the money does not go to support other levels

TJ wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:The Welsh and Scottish unions have already said they will not discipline clubs for entering the PRL LNR comp but they won't condone it.

Have you got a quote on that position from the Scots and Welsh?  It seems very different to anything I have seen.

You beat me to it.

LordDowlais wrote:
I will bet you my mortgage that the Welsh regions would go bankrupt without the mighty English. The WRU are making record profits, and to keep team Wales in the black they need the regions, and as I have said on other threads, there are already contingency plans for this.

It's phrases like 'the Might English' that makes me think the opposition to the RCC being shown on 606v2 has nothing to do with the idea itself but more to do with the people that are pushing for it?

LordDowlais wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:The Celtic nations have no interest in an inclusive European competition they have refused to discuss a third tier for developing nations. All they are interested in is the 3 million per club their clubs receive which keeps them afloat. If the Franglo clubs pull out the Rabo clubs will be bankrupt inside a season without major Union intervention. The French clubs have already states no interest in joining a tournament without the English.

The Welsh and Scottish unions have already said they will not discipline clubs for entering the PRL LNR comp but they won't condone it. Everyone other than TJ wants the European comp to continue and with a tweak or two I think it will, starting with leagues being able to negotiate their own contracts and two Rabo sides going to the Amlin instead of the HEC.

I will bet you my mortgage that the Welsh regions would go bankrupt without the mighty English. The WRU are making record profits, and to keep team Wales in the black they need the regions, and as I have said on other threads, there are already contingency plans for this.

BBC wrote:The Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) says it pumped a record £22.1m into the game at all levels last year despite suffering a drop in turnover and profit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24231513

broadlandboy wrote:Does more money go to the Scotish teams than the SRU get from ERC, if so
the money does not go to support other levels

Its not a discrete pot. the RFU do this as well - use the income from all competitions to support the game at all levels.

the SRU have income from the 6N, autumn internationals and the HC. TV and gate money. This money goes to pay for everything from coaching at grassroots, to paying for the international setup.

IMHO it could be a case of judging the PRL by the standards of their unions

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

TJ wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:The Welsh and Scottish unions have already said they will not discipline clubs for entering the PRL LNR comp but they won't condone it.

Have you got a quote on that position from the Scots and Welsh?  It seems very different to anything I have seen.

You beat me to it.

Thats how I read it Sam. (Welsh statement anyway)

It's called sitting on the fence which I can't blame them for doing at this point

If something is costing more than it is putting in then it is not supporting anything else but taking from what could go elsewhere. IMHO it is the International level that supports what the SRU do

Well that simply is not the case. Yes the HC money allows the SRU to spend more.  the HC  money does not go to the pro teams.  It goes to the SRU. I supect if the pro teams got it all they would be better off.

Greedy Unions.

All four Unions issued near-identical statements with the SRU's reading: "Scottish Rugby wishes to clarify that its clubs will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of the International Rugby Board (IRB) or the relevant national Rugby Unions.

"Scottish Rugby and its clubs remain fully committed to the development of a pan European Rugby Competition and we welcome the recent comments made by the IRB Chairman, who confirmed that a pan European tournament remains the goal of the IRB. We are confident this can be achieved

"Scottish Rugby remains committed to working with our colleagues across Europe and encourages all parties to fully engage in meaningful negotiations. We hope that negotiations can be concluded quickly."

The WRU's added: "The Welsh Rugby Union wishes to clarify that it will not sanction any of its clubs or Regions participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of the IRB and the WRU.

Scrumpy wrote:Greedy Unions.

Nonsense. the SRU have a wider remit that simply supporting two pro teams.

Every union in my understanding has a remit to support the game at all levels for the furtherance of the game under their jurisdiction. I read that once on the IRB regs somewhere.

TJ wrote:Well that simply is not the case. Yes the HC money allows the SRU to spend more.  the HC  money does not go to the pro teams.  It goes to the SRU.  I supect if the pro teams got it all they would be better off.

That is complete nonsense. The money from the HEC goes to funding the two pro teams in Scotland. The SRU top this up with international money. The idea that some of the money goes else where and more international money is put is nonsense worthy of a complete banker. If the HEC is lost the SRU would have to put more money into the teams from international source to top them up. Just because it goes through the middle man doesn't change that.

The IRFU don't try this banky tactic. They say, after the money generated by the clubs and competitions they're in we gave them XXX amount.

Hammer - its simply not how it works. I have tried to explain it. The pro teams are not funded by the HC money. The pro teams get a budget from the SRU who derive their money from a variety of sources.

That's banker speak. Take a little bit from here and a little bit from there and a bit from more from here.

The ONLY way the HEC helps the grass roots anywhere is by reducing the amount the Unions have to give their teams to support them. If you seriously think that the ERC money isn't used for the pro teams then we might as well leave it there.

TJ wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:That sounds like the ERC

Not so much, bb, the ERC is a bastion of blazerdom and would fail dismally on a number of those traits!

This is why the mutual misunderstanding.  two diffident mindsets each unable to understand the other.

anyway its an irrelevance - I only mentioned it to help people understand why the negotiation went so badly wrong.   Understand this point and its easier to understand the differing stances

Sharks circling incompetents

TJ wrote:Hammer - its simply not how it works.  I have tried to explain it. The pro teams are not funded by the HC money.  The pro teams get a budget from the SRU who derive their money from a variety of sources.

The HC being a major part.

Scrumpy wrote:Greedy Unions.

Feic you're dull - any chance that you could jog on?

So we're back to personal insults.

Good to know the site rules are being followed once again.

People really don't like change do they, you say one thing in tongue and cheek and you get insulted, don’t people here have a sense of humour anymore?