One thing I don't understand..

First topic message reminder :

According to scrum.com the IRB has to approve the new tournament the NLR and PRL is setting up.

The Celtic Unions and Italian rugby union said they will only join a tournament that is sanctioned by the IRB.

Essentially the big difference I see is the French and English wants to have a club run tournament, and the powers that be says it has to be union run.

What is the difference and why is it an issue?

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:Hammer - its simply not how it works.  I have tried to explain it. The pro teams are not funded by the HC money.  The pro teams get a budget from the SRU who derive their money from a variety of sources.

The HC being a major part.

yes - but its a long way from that to saying the pro teams are funded by the HC as its obvious they are not.

Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24296946

TJ wrote:Hammer - its simply not how it works.  I have tried to explain it. The pro teams are not funded by the HC money.  The pro teams get a budget from the SRU who derive their money from a variety of sources.

That's a pretty pedantic technical point. If the money that Edinburgh and Glasgow earn for the SRU via their endeavours in the HEC is less than the money that the SRU gives to Glasgow and Edinburgh then to all practical intents and purposes Glasgow and Edinburgh are getting all of the money from the HEC.

if there is no HC money than the pro teams would fold then. the HC money allows the SRU to spend more at all levels. without it they would spend less at all levels including the pro teams.

Scrumpy wrote:Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24296946

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/doyle-abstract.html

Scrumpy wrote:Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

More desperate floundering.  Its nonsense and he must know that.  Unless of course significant alterations in favour of the Rabo teams are on the cards.  Maybe the PRL realise that they are going to be left without significant european competition and are wiling to compromise significantly

"There's a massive chance [they will join]. Because that's what we want as well," Robson told BBC Northampton.

Faultless logic.

Bruce Craig, .........
"If I'm right and it is compelling, then they will come in. But it has to be fair in terms of the competition qualification and financial distribution, and it has to have a sensible management structure."

I agree. Its a shame what is being offered is 1) a pig in a poke and 2) neither fair qualification wise or finance wise.  As for the management structure - another pig in a poke from people shown to be not trustworthy

At the end of the day the temptation and smell of money will win through.

It's like parking a chip van outside a weight watchers meeting.

Scrumpy wrote:At the end of the day the temptation and smell of money will win through.

It's like parking a chip van outside a weight watchers meeting.

That analogy makes no sense. Bruce Craig is the greedy one, and he'd be the owner of the van. He'd eat all his own chips. And then throw up on himself but pretend he meant to do that all along.

Some people are into that. They call it a Roman shower.

Scrumpy wrote:At the end of the day the temptation and smell of money will win through.

It's like parking a chip van outside a weight watchers meeting.

But we are not being offered any more money - indeed the PRL proposals would mean less overall - reduced gates for the non HC teams.

I actually think its the other way round - as it gets more and more obvious the RCC is dead in the water without significant concession the PRL seeing all that imaginary money disappearing and realising they need the Rabo teams will be forced to negotiate properly.

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

More desperate floundering.  Its nonsense and he must know that.  Unless of course significant alterations in favour of the Rabo teams are on the cards.  Maybe the PRL realise that they are going to be left without significant european competition and are wiling to compromise significantly

There's talk now that the BT deal requires their new competition to have at least four Tier 1 nations involved or it's useless. That can still happen. But only if they stop trying to freeze out the Unions. If they antagonise their own unions then we're not going to anywhere near this new thing.

No-one is going to touch this thing with a barge pole until the RFU and FFR back it, even if they wanted to get involved, because the political blowback from undercutting the two biggest unions in the NH will complicate their main interest which is international rugby- future World Cup bids, Six Nations TV rights sales etc.

As much as losing European rugby would hurt the IRFU, FIR, SRU and WRU financially the international game is where the real money is and the Pro12 sides won't be joining any tournament before the RFU and FFR endorse it. Thats not just a point of principle- they're acting in their economic interests too.

The PRL/LNR have been fighting a war with their own unions for control... but the only way they can get what they need is by swallowing their pride and working alongside them. Is an exclusively French-English tournament that may face a long, uphill legal battle to get off the ground going to fulfill BT Sports needs? Possibly not.

Scrumpy wrote:At the end of the day the temptation and smell of money will win through.

It's like parking a chip van outside a weight watchers meeting.

...and this implies that Weight Watchers are greedy, rather than people just trying to improve their lives. Most would ignore the smell of Bruce Craig's overpriced chips. A few weak minded ones might cave in.

If someone parked a deli style cart outside, with a wide variety of healthy snacks etc. so that everyone could participate and enjoy themselves - all would gain. It would be nicer for everyone and a much nicer spectacle for anyone watching. It would attract a diverse range of customers, with a variety of styles and cultures.

Not just big fat English and French chip munchers (to follow your analogy through).

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:At the end of the day the temptation and smell of money will win through.

It's like parking a chip van outside a weight watchers meeting.

But we are not being offered any more money - indeed the PRL proposals would mean less overall - reduced gates for the non HC teams.

I actually think its the other way round - as it gets more and more obvious the RCC is dead in the water without significant concession the PRL seeing all that imaginary money disappearing and realising they need the Rabo teams will be forced to negotiate  properly.

Wow - just where to start? PRL campaigners sitting outside other stadia forcing people away from the games? Less overall? - I mean - just wow. The logical steps you follow are just - breathtaking.

I mean - I do think the PRL and LNR have a point and I do like their reasoning. But I can see there is a point to some of the rabo arguments which really come down to differences in culture which are big hurdles to cross. I can appreciate those arguments just as some of the pro PRL comments make me cringe. But stuff like this based on no foundation outside of a spiralling tower of BS just drive me nuts

Take Edinburgh as an example - their HC cup run 2 years ago brought an extra million or so into the SRU coffers due mainly to two huge crowds at home games. There is no way Edinburgh could get anything like those crowds for amlin games - its a very fickle audience. Thus that money will be lost. I am certain that for a team that dropped from the HC to the amlin gates would go down as would the value of sponsorship.

Glad you can see the argument from the pro 12 side. I can understand the argument from the PRL side - but I think the wider issues mean that they need to be more magnanimous

Can we put it all on the merged thread - 3 running is too much. ta.

TJ wrote:Take Edinburgh as an example - their HC cup run 2 years ago brought an extra million or so into the SRU coffers due mainly to two huge crowds at home games.  There is no way Edinburgh could get anything like those crowds for amlin games - its a very fickle audience.  Thus that money will be lost.   I am certain that for a team that dropped from the HC to the amlin gates would go down as would the value of sponsorship.

 
 
Maybe they should get a by to the knockout stages so they can have one or two big games again?
 
"Thus that money will be lost."
 
It wouldn't be lost, it just wouldn't have been earned.

Scrumpy wrote:At the end of the day the temptation and smell of money will win through.

It's like parking a chip van outside a weight watchers meeting.

Scrumps, the thing is that the whole point of weight watchers is that everyone in the meeting wants the same thing and so their group solidarity and positive peer pressure keeps them away from the chip van as they know the chips might seem a good idea but are actually bad for them

TJ wrote:Take Edinburgh as an example - their HC cup run 2 years ago brought an extra million or so into the SRU coffers due mainly to two huge crowds at home games.  There is no way Edinburgh could get anything like those crowds for amlin games - its a very fickle audience.  Thus that money will be lost.   I am certain that for a team that dropped from the HC to the amlin gates would go down as would the value of sponsorship.

Glad you can see the argument from the pro 12 side.  I can understand the argument from the PRL side - but I think the wider issues mean that they need to be more magnanimous

The top tier competition is always going to make more than the second tier - but the Amlin could make much more than it does today. The right game does produce good crowds - I've been to several Amlin knockout matches and seen Thomond Park sold out for an Amlin semi and Toulon sold out for an Amlin QF.

But the marketing around the competition isn't great - it's far more low key than it could be. Having a broader range of teams in the Amlin would increase its value (just as you argue for the HEC TJ. I am inclined to suggest here that simply having Leinster in the Amlin would make it a major draw and could increase its value by up to 90%...) - as has already happened with the HEC drop down teams. Also, ensuring that teams in the Amlin earn good money from it would help to ensure they take it seriously - at the moment it is an afterthought for many of the English and French teams. The final itself could be made much better - especially if the organisers (looking at you ERC) didn't do stupid things like close off all the bars for their corporate guests.

It's a virtuous circle - make the competition better (with a wider range of teams) and the value rises and everyone benefits.

TJ wrote:Take Edinburgh as an example - their HC cup run 2 years ago brought an extra million or so into the SRU coffers due mainly to two huge crowds at home games.  There is no way Edinburgh could get anything like those crowds for amlin games - its a very fickle audience.  Thus that money will be lost.   I am certain that for a team that dropped from the HC to the amlin gates would go down as would the value of sponsorship.

Glad you can see the argument from the pro 12 side.  I can understand the argument from the PRL side - but I think the wider issues mean that they need to be more magnanimous

Well I would have thought with more chances to get more games and having a better and higher profile tier 2 with a couple of those top draw Rabo teams might help with the gates. The point is you might be right, you might just as well be wrong. You cannot be certain.

It is true that the Amlin can be a bit micky mouse at the moment. The occasional rabo team in it from the start doesnt really have any incentive to do well (Can be different for PRL/LNR as winning it is an alternative way of making it to tier 1), and anyways a whole heap of bigger clubs get dumped into the competition half way through.

Take that in balance with teams dropping down from HEC group stages out and give a real incentive for winning the thing and it could really take off.

Funnily enough I actually suggestedd on here way back when the PRL and LNR first gave notice that maybe one of the big reasons for the PRL was actually to give the bottom half of the premiership a meaningful european competition.

Poorfour wrote:

TJ wrote:Take Edinburgh as an example - their HC cup run 2 years ago brought an extra million or so into the SRU coffers due mainly to two huge crowds at home games.  There is no way Edinburgh could get anything like those crowds for amlin games - its a very fickle audience.  Thus that money will be lost.   I am certain that for a team that dropped from the HC to the amlin gates would go down as would the value of sponsorship.

Glad you can see the argument from the pro 12 side.  I can understand the argument from the PRL side - but I think the wider issues mean that they need to be more magnanimous

The top tier competition is always going to make more than the second tier - but the Amlin could make much more than it does today. The right game does produce good crowds - I've been to several Amlin knockout matches and seen Thomond Park sold out for an Amlin semi and Toulon sold out for an Amlin QF.

But the marketing around the competition isn't great - it's far more low key than it could be. Having a broader range of teams in the Amlin would increase its value (just as you argue for the HEC TJ. I am inclined to suggest here that simply having Leinster in the Amlin would make it a major draw and could increase its value by up to 90%...) - as has already happened with the HEC drop down teams. Also, ensuring that teams in the Amlin earn good money from it would help to ensure they take it seriously - at the moment it is an afterthought for many of the English and French teams. The final itself could be made much better - especially if the organisers (looking at you ERC) didn't do stupid things like close off all the bars for their corporate guests.

It's a virtuous circle - make the competition better (with a wider range of teams) and the value rises and everyone benefits.

Poorfour, as often, all good points - so let's deal with the marketing, let's negotiate an improved TV deal - but why rip it all up?

Because the ERC is useless

Is there something that prevents clubs / provinces involved in the Amlin, or their Unions for that matter, from banding together to come up with an effective marketing strategy for the tournament?  

I know that technically it is not their job but they were locked into a contract for long enough that surely it would have made it worth their while to do so especially as it could have raised their revenues.

broadlandboy wrote:Because the ERC is useless

+1

I think the amlin in its current state is fairly unmarketable - and certainly very hard to make money from. It will always be the poor relation. the ginger stepchild

TJ wrote:I think the amlin in its current state is fairly unmarketable - and certainly very hard to make money from.  It will always be the poor relation.  the ginger stepchild

Awesome  

As an Edinburgh fan, I'd be happier if we were in the Amlin. It might give us something to cheer about and help instil a bit of confidence. The crowds wouldn't be as big in the group stages but the standard picks up massively as soon as it gets to the knock out stage so we could still see decent crowds (if we got that far).

As a quick analogy and without wanting to say too much about football, one of my pals is a Hibs fan and still maintains that the best he's seen them play was the season after they got promoted out the 1st division. They had a relatively young squad, with a fair amount of talent, that were able to develop a winning mentality in the 1st division which they took into the Premier league.

First post so please be gentle.

Solid8 wrote:

TJ wrote:I think the amlin in its current state is fairly unmarketable - and certainly very hard to make money from.  It will always be the poor relation. the ginger stepchild

Awesome  

 


Get used to it as thats what the HC will become without English and French clubs.

What - awesome?

des wrote:As an Edinburgh fan, I'd be happier if we were in the Amlin.  It might give us something to cheer about and help instil a bit of confidence.  The crowds wouldn't be as big in the group stages but the standard picks up massively as soon as it gets to the knock out stage so we could still see decent crowds (if we got that far).

As a quick analogy and without wanting to say too much about football, one of my pals is a Hibs fan and still maintains that the best he's seen them play was the season after they got promoted out the 1st division.  They had a relatively young squad, with a fair amount of talent, that were able to develop a winning mentality in the 1st division which they took into the Premier league.

First post so please be gentle.

welcome des, always good to have another MFL

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

One thing I don't understand..

Chinese writing!  

Aw i know...ill leave now...  

cracked that one on the previous page. no one laughed then either

I did, on the inside anyway.

Ah my apologies...i was being lazy and not following the full thread  

don't focking blame you. who could keep up with the relentless pace of the sh1te being posted on both sides of this arguement.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

One thing I don't understand..

Chinese writing!  

Aw i know...ill leave now...  

cracked that one on the previous page. no one laughed then either

I did, on the inside anyway.

Ah my apologies...i was being lazy and not following the full thread  

don't focking blame you. who could keep up with the relentless pace of the sh1te being posted on both sides of this arguement.

I couldn't believe the sheer mindless stupidity being shown on the various threads, until it dawned on me that it was the same four people creating it all, using various alternative usernames.

And all was good again.

" Poorfour, as often, all good points - so let's deal with the marketing, let's negotiate an improved TV deal - but why rip it all up?"

As, simply put the ERC have repeatedly refused the PRL the chance to sell their tv rights or the PRL and LNR to follow different endorsements or marketing from the corporate bodies affiliated with the ERC. Look at the BT deal, it would bring much additional income to the communal pot but was dismissed without debate by the ERC who under sold the HEC and Amlin to Sky, again.

Evidence? WE know so little of the BT deal and I have seen all sorts of reports on here of what it would bring. It would appear not much more for the European cup.

formerly known as Sam wrote:" Poorfour, as often, all good points - so let's deal with the marketing, let's negotiate an improved TV deal - but why rip it all up?"

As, simply put the ERC have repeatedly refused the PRL the chance to sell their tv rights or the PRL and LNR to follow different endorsements or marketing from the corporate bodies affiliated with the ERC. Look at the BT deal, it would bring much additional income to the communal pot but was dismissed without debate by the ERC who under sold the HEC and Amlin to Sky, again.

Sam, it's possible that the BT deal would bring more for all, altho as TJ points out, details are sketchy and if rumours are to be trusted, its not looking so clever. If the PRL genuinely had the interests of their fellow European clubs at heart, then they would have gone to ERC and said, 'Look, we're talking to BT about a domestic deal, they're keen as mustard and I think we could probably do much better than we could in our re-negotiations with Sky' - don't you think?

I was about to say something similar: are any of us privy to the details of the rejected BT offer? It wouldn't be right to conclude that it was the best deal and the ERC was dumb to turn it down just because they offered the most money. The money is only one part of it (believe it or not). There might have been certain strings attached to that pot of gold that the unions / ERC thought unacceptable.

Notch wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

More desperate floundering.  Its nonsense and he must know that.  Unless of course significant alterations in favour of the Rabo teams are on the cards.  Maybe the PRL realise that they are going to be left without significant european competition and are wiling to compromise significantly

There's talk now that the BT deal requires their new competition to have at least four Tier 1 nations involved or it's useless. That can still happen. But only if they stop trying to freeze out the Unions. If they antagonise their own unions then we're not going to anywhere near this new thing.

No-one is going to touch this thing with a barge pole until the RFU and FFR back it, even if they wanted to get involved, because the political blowback from undercutting the two biggest unions in the NH will complicate their main interest which is international rugby- future World Cup bids, Six Nations TV rights sales etc.

As much as losing European rugby would hurt the IRFU, FIR, SRU and WRU financially the international game is where the real money is and the Pro12 sides won't be joining any tournament before the RFU and FFR endorse it. Thats not just a point of principle- they're acting in their economic interests too.

The PRL/LNR have been fighting a war with their own unions for control... but the only way they can get what they need is by swallowing their pride and working alongside them. Is an exclusively French-English tournament that may face a long, uphill legal battle to get off the ground going to fulfill BT Sports needs? Possibly not.

Four tier 1 nations, this is epic news, BT can now pull out of the PRL deal and strike a deal with the WRU, IRFU, FIR and the SRU there are your four tier one's, to make a new European tournament run by the unions. 

As, the details released describe it as being worth more than the entire Sky deal (which included Rabo coverage as well). The Rabo nations could still sell their coverage on top and we'd all be quids in. The details are sketchy but since when do big corporate sports coverage deals get released fine print and all to the average Joe?

The PRL and LNR have been calling for reform in one form or another since 2007 and the ERC only wanted to negotiate once they served notice. The ERC played the bully and backed them into a corner then ran off once they fought their way out. Hopefully both sides end the petty BS and get things sorted, I still hold that if they allow the BT deal then the PRL will be far more flexible on the rest of their demands.

LD, Notch -  

Notch wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

More desperate floundering.  Its nonsense and he must know that.  Unless of course significant alterations in favour of the Rabo teams are on the cards.  Maybe the PRL realise that they are going to be left without significant european competition and are wiling to compromise significantly

There's talk now that the BT deal requires their new competition to have at least four Tier 1 nations involved or it's useless. That can still happen. But only if they stop trying to freeze out the Unions. If they antagonise their own unions then we're not going to anywhere near this new thing.

No-one is going to touch this thing with a barge pole until the RFU and FFR back it, even if they wanted to get involved, because the political blowback from undercutting the two biggest unions in the NH will complicate their main interest which is international rugby- future World Cup bids, Six Nations TV rights sales etc.

As much as losing European rugby would hurt the IRFU, FIR, SRU and WRU financially the international game is where the real money is and the Pro12 sides won't be joining any tournament before the RFU and FFR endorse it. Thats not just a point of principle- they're acting in their economic interests too.

The PRL/LNR have been fighting a war with their own unions for control... but the only way they can get what they need is by swallowing their pride and working alongside them. Is an exclusively French-English tournament that may face a long, uphill legal battle to get off the ground going to fulfill BT Sports needs? Possibly not.

Link please, else it was made up!

Lots of appearance all over social media. I couldn't see a source of any description anywhere

TJ wrote:Lots of appearance all over social media.  I couldn't see a source of any description anywhere

So social media is now being used as a source??  With how quick rumours spread on here I'd thought folks would think twice about taking social media,

nathan wrote:

Notch wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Northampton chief executive Allan Robson is confident Pro12 teams will join a breakaway European competition.

More desperate floundering.  Its nonsense and he must know that.  Unless of course significant alterations in favour of the Rabo teams are on the cards.  Maybe the PRL realise that they are going to be left without significant european competition and are wiling to compromise significantly

There's talk now that the BT deal requires their new competition to have at least four Tier 1 nations involved or it's useless. That can still happen. But only if they stop trying to freeze out the Unions. If they antagonise their own unions then we're not going to anywhere near this new thing.

No-one is going to touch this thing with a barge pole until the RFU and FFR back it, even if they wanted to get involved, because the political blowback from undercutting the two biggest unions in the NH will complicate their main interest which is international rugby- future World Cup bids, Six Nations TV rights sales etc.

As much as losing European rugby would hurt the IRFU, FIR, SRU and WRU financially the international game is where the real money is and the Pro12 sides won't be joining any tournament before the RFU and FFR endorse it. Thats not just a point of principle- they're acting in their economic interests too.

The PRL/LNR have been fighting a war with their own unions for control... but the only way they can get what they need is by swallowing their pride and working alongside them. Is an exclusively French-English tournament that may face a long, uphill legal battle to get off the ground going to fulfill BT Sports needs? Possibly not.

Link please, else it was made up!

The is one guy who posted on a blog. There was one post on here in more detail. I wouldn't be surprised if the one on here is the source. It's spreads like wild fire.

It reads like an anti-PRL wet dream so it's either cowpat or whoever is on the PRL and agreed it needs sacking.

There's so much cack flying around amid all these negotiations It's hard to know what's exactly going on. However, the PRL are all successful businessmen in their own right outside of rugby. They aren't about to agree a deal that is worth less than Sky, that is just plainly desperate Rabo rumours. If the Rugby Championship goes ahead then the Rabo clubs will be in it as out of it they'll just go under. If the Rugby Champions Cup doesn't go ahead then the it will be because the ERC have allowed the BT deal anyway.

formerly known as Sam wrote:There's so much cack flying around amid all these negotiations It's hard to know what's exactly going on. However, the PRL are all successful businessmen in their own right outside of rugby. They aren't about to agree a deal that is worth less than Sky, that is just plainly desperate Rabo rumours. If the Rugby Championship goes ahead then the Rabo clubs will be in it as out of it they'll just go under. If the Rugby Champions Cup doesn't go ahead then the it will be because the ERC have allowed the BT deal anyway.

Successful businessmen eh, they must all be psychopaths if we believe some of the Poopie spouted on here.

Making money bad - loosing money and going out of business good  

formerly known as Sam wrote:There's so much cack flying around amid all these negotiations It's hard to know what's exactly going on. However, the PRL are all successful businessmen in their own right outside of rugby. They aren't about to agree a deal that is worth less than Sky, that is just plainly desperate Rabo rumours. If the Rugby Championship goes ahead then the Rabo clubs will be in it as out of it they'll just go under. If the Rugby Champions Cup doesn't go ahead then the it will be because the ERC have allowed the BT deal anyway.

The rabo unions have a small number of clubs each to support. Putting on an extra international would cover the losses from the h cup.

the rabo unions will not join the PRL pie in the sky european cup without significant changes, without the rabo teams there is no european cup. the IRB will not snaction a prl led RCC

One thing I don't understand. Why does there have to be tiers? One European Cup for the top pro sides in all 6 Nations. Or more nations if that's even feasible. And every team gets an equal slice of the TV money giving everyone a stable (and equal) financial outlook despite the ups and downs on the field.

Why the insistence on separating it into tiers and giving more money to the big boys?