One thing I don't understand..

First topic message reminder :

According to scrum.com the IRB has to approve the new tournament the NLR and PRL is setting up.

The Celtic Unions and Italian rugby union said they will only join a tournament that is sanctioned by the IRB.

Essentially the big difference I see is the French and English wants to have a club run tournament, and the powers that be says it has to be union run.

What is the difference and why is it an issue?

But is TV rights we are talking about - and a small number of teams are the ones who people want to watch. Leinster, , Leicester, Toulon etc are a better draw than Edinburgh, sale, zebre

TJ wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Bilrong has a valid question which he wants answered the trouble is people go O/T with their own agenders
The PRL/LNR wanted to negotiate about greviences they had but were told no while in the ERC,so gave notice & want to set up an organisation in which they have a greater say

the PRL never once negotiated in good faith. Shown by the BT deal and the fact the PRL originally proposed 8/8/8 and only went to 6/6/6 to gain the support of the french

So PRL have shown they are willing to negotiate by dropping their plans of 8/8/8 to 6/6/6, it's such a shame that ERC were not willing to negotiate with either of them otherwise I'm sure the HC would never be in doubt.

Let’s not forget ERC are the bad boys here for letting the contract enter its last year without negotiating a new one with clubs and broadcasters.

PRL have a obligation to the clubs they represent to get the best deal possible for them, the RCC has left the door open so the Rabo teams can also benefit from this deal, it's just the old fuddy-duddy unions standing in their way (as usual)

Really - going from 8/8/8 which might have been acceptable to 6/6/6 which never will be is a sign they wanted to negotiate?

there is no benefit to the RABO unions to enter the RCC

TJ wrote:Really - going from 8/8/8 which might have been acceptable to 6/6/6 which never will be is a sign they wanted to negotiate?

there is no benefit to the RABO unions to enter the RCC

Well, there is a bit, as the alternative is losing out on Europe altogether as the HEC will become utterly meaningless

Unless as many of us believe the euro cup will continue without the PRL teams

But then it is the RABO, in a more stupid format

Not at all. There could still be English and French participants.

and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Not at all. There could still be English and French participants.

Ah, D2 and Championship sides. OK, that is a valid option, but excuse my skepticism in believing that favours the RABO Unions any more than joining whatever this new thing is planned to be called. Maybe 5 teams across both leagues are a genuine draw or of competitive quality?

from all the differing opinions here the only summation I can come to is that the English and French clubs are looking to start a new comp which would provide them control and a bigger share of the money, something they feel their Home Unions aren't doing for them.

Is it selfish?

Perhaps, but if they feel the revenue from their side gives them the right to want more, it can be justified to a certain extent.

The issue globally of course is that the English and French clubs fall within a system that is governed and regulated by their respective Unions and the IRB.

Thus a European competition will most likely have to cater to everyone's needs and not the wants of English and French clubs.

The only way I see them getting their way in all aspects is to effectively renounce Rugby Union and begin a rebel league, which would cut everyone of those players off from any IRB sanctioned rugby.

somehow I doubt that will ever happen as all countries' players are involved.

Eventually they won't get what they want.

Rugby is not an island, it is a global sport.

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

So the RABO teams are happy to join the Amlin at last then? I'd love to see these countries participate more in Europe, so that would be great

TJ wrote:Or for that matter that Leinster are "subsidising" Sale - or Exeter.  Leinster are one of the big draws in the HC along with 3 or 4 other teams

You keep repeating that mantra TJ, but I think you have a vastly overinflated view of the value of Leinster, or any other club, or even any other union. Yes, a competition with Leinster in it is worth more than a competition without Leinster not in it, but not by the huge amount that you imagine.

The value comes from whether it will pull in English and French eyeballs. The biggest single element of that is whether English or French clubs are involved in the competition. The demonstration of that is in asking how much a Rabo cup would be worth in tv terms. Less than an Anglo-French cup, almost certainly. It's likely that an English-only cup, correctly marketed, could be worth more than a Rabo Cup. After all, the FA Cup in soccer is a pretty big draw.

After that, having a team like Leinster involved increases the value. But it's incremental.

You need both Leinster and Exeter to get the full value of the competition. But Leinster take a bigger share of that mutually created value. That's pretty much the definition of a subsidy.

I shall tell you what I have heard regarding the BT deal. Don't know if its true so don't shoot the messenger. The BT European part of the deal is dependent on it including at least 4 Tier 1 European sides. If that can't be delivered then the whole deal for PRL is worth less than the Sky deal. The Premiership parts value would also apparently be significantly less.

This is why they want us to sign up. Because once again it is all about them.

We are just being used so they can deliver a deal that gives them and the French lots of extra cash but only gives the Celtalians a tiny increase.

The result of signing up to that deal would be to see all the best Celts migrate to those Franglo clubs beacuse of their vastly increased spending power.

The WRU IRFU SRU and FIR would be crazy to sign up. All they have to do is to hold their nerve and watch the whole thing either collapse or see PRL come crawling back.

Wales can fill 6 weekends (and so can the Irish) by having an inter provincial/ regional tournament. Derby games, little travel cost, good crowds.

ChequeredJersey wrote: Maybe 5 teams across both leagues are a genuine draw or of competitive quality?

Yup - I would agree in general. so if you argue that the English and french subsidise the Rabo you can equally state that these few clubs subsidise the rest

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Not at all. There could still be English and French participants.

Ah, D2 and Championship sides. OK, that is a valid option, but excuse my skepticism in believing that favours the RABO Unions any more than joining whatever this new thing is planned to be called. Maybe 5 teams across both leagues are a genuine draw or of competitive quality?

The Heineken Cup as it stands is a competition between the best sides of the six participating unions. If the PRL and LNR clubs choose not to take part, the RFU and FFR will just have to enter their next best.

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

Why do Wales, Ireland, Italy and Scotland not just go on their own?

I know everyone says there isn't enough money, but has anyone actually tried to see whether there is a feasibility for it?

Firstly, the squads are quite big to accommodate the huge number of games, how about the squads are reduced to 32 salaried players, put an affordable salary cap on them, create a second tier semi professional level and have the RABO become the premier competition for them.

It will free up some of the calendar, the national coaches can have more time with their players, and they will be less fatigued.

Yes, I know you will say you will lose players to France etc,

but let that happen, it opens up positions for new players, and you will never know whether they are good enough unless they are exposed.

Work from the ground up on your structures, and ensure there is a flow of talent.

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players. Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania? maybe. Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

Gravity is something I don't understand. Gravity and magnetism. I sort if understand the laws and how they are measured as I regularly tune into the BBC Brian Cox channel which has a permanent loop of video trying to explain it all.

He revealed the other night that there is a single unifying universal force which explains it all and they named it the IRB.

Deep under the Mendip Hills the Large Biltong Collider (LBC) has been constructed to reveal how fundamental, seemingly paradoxical particles coalesced and formed rugby at the moment the Big Bill inexplicably occurred - and time began.

In recent times, LBC experts have announced the discovery of the Biggs-Henson partitcle which had been predicted by experts at the University of Bath. It involved firing playerons in circles at infinite speed and crashing them into each other to destruction.

The press have hailed their announcement as the proof of existence of the so-called BOD particle although seemingly its existence cannot be sustained for more than an instant.

However, for me it still does not explain how playerons gravitate to Bath (although Dr Brian inform us that it can be measured in money).
But I'm still no nearer understanding its magnetism.

  

So... why the sudden interest in growing european rugby now as opposed to, say, even a couple of months ago.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Gravity is something I don't understand. Gravity and magnetism. I sort if understand the laws and how they are measured as I regularly tune into the BBC Brian Cox channel which has a permanent loop of video trying to explain it all.

He revealed the other night that there is a single unifying universal force which explains it all and they named it the IRB.

Deep under the Mendip Hills the Large Biltong Collider (LBC) has been constructed to reveal how fundamental, seemingly paradoxical particles coalesced and formed rugby at the moment the Big Bill inexplicably occurred - and time began.

In recent times, LBC experts have announced the discovery of the Biggs-Henson partitcle which had been predicted by experts at the University of Bath. It involved firing playerons in circles at infinite speed and crashing them into each other to destruction.

The press have hailed their announcement as the proof of existence of the so-called BOD particle although seemingly its existence cannot be sustained for more than an instant.

However, for me it still does not explain how playerons gravitate to Bath (although Dr Brian inform us that it can be measured in money).
But I'm still no nearer understanding its magnetism.

I understand the Biggs-Henson particle despite early predictions has not yet been found. The Fearns-Henson particle on the other hand...

doctornickolas wrote:I shall tell you what I have heard regarding the BT deal. Don't know if its true so don't shoot the messenger. The BT European part of the deal  is dependent on it including at least 4 Tier 1 European sides. If that can't be delivered then the whole deal for PRL is worth less than the Sky deal. The Premiership parts value would also apparently be significantly less.

This is why they want us to sign up. Because once again it is all about them.

This would explain why the PRL are so coy about releasing the details of the BT deal to the RABO members. If it's such a mutually benefical deal you'd have PR men singing it's praises and actively trying to undermine the Union positions by shouting about how much extra income the RABO clubs would get and how this would benefit them "You could have afforded to keep Johnny Sexton" "You can replace Ruan Pienaar" with this extra funding!

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

Don't they already do that in the Amlin with Spain and Romania? Adding Georgia would be good though their best players play in France already.

In recent times, LBC experts have announced the discovery of the Biggs-Henson partitcle which had been predicted by experts at the University of Bath. It involved firing playerons in circles at infinite speed and crashing them into each other to destruction.

You omitted the reason for these collisions.

doctornickolas wrote:I shall tell you what I have heard regarding the BT deal. Don't know if its true so don't shoot the messenger. The BT European part of the deal  is dependent on it including at least 4 Tier 1 European sides. If that can't be delivered then the whole deal for PRL is worth less than the Sky deal. The Premiership parts value would also apparently be significantly less.

This is why they want us to sign up. Because once again it is all about them.

We are just being used so they can deliver a deal that gives them and the French lots of extra cash but only gives the Celtalians a tiny increase.

The result of signing up to that deal would be to see all the best Celts migrate to those Franglo clubs beacuse of their vastly increased spending power.

The WRU IRFU SRU and FIR would be crazy to sign up. All they have to do is to hold their nerve and watch the whole thing either collapse or see PRL come crawling back.

Wales can fill 6 weekends (and so can the Irish) by having an inter provincial/ regional tournament. Derby games, little travel cost, good crowds.  

Interesting, dr_n, are there any English sides that count as Tier 1?

Biltong wrote:

In recent times, LBC experts have announced the discovery of the Biggs-Henson partitcle which had been predicted by experts at the University of Bath. It involved firing playerons in circles at infinite speed and crashing them into each other to destruction.

You omitted the reason for these collisions.

You also missed out the North particle, which moves at infinite speed and at infinite mass and therefore warps time space itself around it to become an unstoppable particle of pure kinetic energy

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

I would like to see relegation from the 6 nations but once again some Celtic Unions are against such an idea (as their players aren't use to the idea/pressure of relegation), and then they say they want to help European rugby!

Double standards if you ask me.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:I shall tell you what I have heard regarding the BT deal. Don't know if its true so don't shoot the messenger. The BT European part of the deal  is dependent on it including at least 4 Tier 1 European sides. If that can't be delivered then the whole deal for PRL is worth less than the Sky deal. The Premiership parts value would also apparently be significantly less.

This is why they want us to sign up. Because once again it is all about them.

We are just being used so they can deliver a deal that gives them and the French lots of extra cash but only gives the Celtalians a tiny increase.

The result of signing up to that deal would be to see all the best Celts migrate to those Franglo clubs beacuse of their vastly increased spending power.

The WRU IRFU SRU and FIR would be crazy to sign up. All they have to do is to hold their nerve and watch the whole thing either collapse or see PRL come crawling back.

Wales can fill 6 weekends (and so can the Irish) by having an inter provincial/ regional tournament. Derby games, little travel cost, good crowds.  

Interesting, dr_n, are there any English sides that count as Tier 1?

What I mean is that they need teams from 4 Tier 1 unions. I think this is the only reason they want any other teams involved. They are not offering any money to anyone other than the English and French. Other than pennies. All their talk is that the deal would save English and French teams. never a mention of anyone else, unless it is their divide and conquer talk.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:

In recent times, LBC experts have announced the discovery of the Biggs-Henson partitcle which had been predicted by experts at the University of Bath. It involved firing playerons in circles at infinite speed and crashing them into each other to destruction.

You omitted the reason for these collisions.

You also missed out the North particle, which moves at infinite speed and at infinite mass and therefore warps time space itself around it to become an unstoppable particle of pure kinetic energy

True, THe MAN north can solve the renewable energy crisis we are soon to face on planet earth.  

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

I would like to see relegation from the 6 nations but once again some Celtic Unions are against such an idea (as their players aren't use to the idea/pressure of relegation), and then they say they want to help European rugby!

Double standards if you ask me.

If there were other nations that could be competitive then fine. there is not however. Say Scotland is relegated to 6N division 2 and Georgia win 6 n div 2 so they swap. Georgia would get pummelled, Scotland would win easily and next year they would swap again.

Not all successful competitions use relegation. super 15, NFL, no relegation

Do we want to use the NFL as an example? Because that is a dangerous route to go down, one that IMO kills International rugby (I know, slippery slope from me)

And the Super 15 futures is under a lot of debate too

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

I would like to see relegation from the 6 nations but once again some Celtic Unions are against such an idea (as their players aren't use to the idea/pressure of relegation), and then they say they want to help European rugby!

Double standards if you ask me.

Not a very clever comment - we'd be having a 6N without France next year for example.

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

I would like to see relegation from the 6 nations but once again some Celtic Unions are against such an idea (as their players aren't use to the idea/pressure of relegation), and then they say they want to help European rugby!

Double standards if you ask me.

If there were other nations that could be competitive then fine.  there is not however.  Say Scotland is relegated to 6N division 2 and Georgia win 6 n div 2 so they swap.  Georgia would get pummelled, Scotland would win easily and next year they would swap again.  

Not all successful competitions use relegation. super 15,  NFL, no relegation

I agree Georgia would get pummelled and that would be with their best players available, yet you would happily have a few Georgian and Romanian club teams into the HC to replace English and French clubs and expect it to remain a credible worthwhile competition.  

malky1963 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

I would like to see relegation from the 6 nations but once again some Celtic Unions are against such an idea (as their players aren't use to the idea/pressure of relegation), and then they say they want to help European rugby!

Double standards if you ask me.

Not a very clever comment - we'd be having a 6N without France next year for example.

Whoes to say France would have finished bottom if there had been relegation?

Who's to say that a season of the 6 N with no France is inherently bad? They'd be back and possibly stronger for it

Which just goes to show that ERC has failed to grow rugby outside of the 6 Nation unions

broadlandboy wrote:Which just goes to show that ERC has failed to grow rugby outside of the 6 Nation unions

and that is another reason why both the Amlin and HC needs to be thought out again, Zebre would be better off in the Amlin playing against teams that is more their level, Leaving the HC to be for the Elite clubs that have earned the right to be at the top table.

That gives all the lower end clubs something to aim for.

Biltong wrote:

In recent times, LBC experts have announced the discovery of the Biggs-Henson partitcle which had been predicted by experts at the University of Bath. It involved firing playerons in circles at infinite speed and crashing them into each other to destruction.

You omitted the reason for these collisions.

The LBC experiment is Big Science, Bilt, and therefore costs huge money. Controlling and directing the playerons into reliable  and visible results is proving difficult has proved to be unreliable. They are constantly on the search for more appropriate playerons which will can replicate early results in more testing conditions - but that would require even more cash for which they have applied to the PRL for grant extensions.

The ERC and PRL and FFR and LNR and the Unions and basically everyone involved (except maybe the RFU, it's hard to tell whether their silence has been clever or just indecisive) have handled this entire affair appallingly. It is hard to believe that these are professional businessmen

One thing I don't understand..

Chinese writing!  

Aw i know...ill leave now...  

ChequeredJersey wrote:The ERC and PRL and FFR and LNR and the Unions and basically everyone involved (except maybe the RFU, it's hard to tell whether their silence has been clever or just indecisive) have handled this entire affair appallingly. It is hard to believe that these are professional businessmen

Can't argue with that, I'd like to shut them all in a room until they sort this mess out, also maybe Sky and BT should get involved as I'm sure a deal could be done so that they both have HC games to show. BT getting all English and French home games and Sky having the rest.

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:and others such as Georgia, Romania etc

Wow! what a open and fair competition that would be, exciting as watching paint dry.

I mean one team from each of those countries made up of their best players.  Georgia would be able to give most Rabo teams a decent game, romania?  maybe.  Its something I have wanted to see for a while and would be good for the wider game

I would like to see relegation from the 6 nations but once again some Celtic Unions are against such an idea (as their players aren't use to the idea/pressure of relegation), and then they say they want to help European rugby!

Double standards if you ask me.

If there were other nations that could be competitive then fine.  there is not however.  Say Scotland is relegated to 6N division 2 and Georgia win 6 n div 2 so they swap.  Georgia would get pummelled, Scotland would win easily and next year they would swap again.  

Not all successful competitions use relegation. super 15,  NFL, no relegation

I agree Georgia would get pummelled and that would be with their best players available, yet you would happily have a few Georgian and Romanian club teams into the HC to replace English and French clubs and expect it to remain a credible worthwhile competition.  

Scrumpy; I think your eagerness to wind other people up has been hampered by an inability to read.  I have emboldened the important part about TJ's statement for you, if your are still having difficulty understanding what it says I could write it pho·neti·cal·ly for you!

Did the Celtic unions actually mention the announcements yesterday refer to the ERC?

Did the Italians comment?

Is fraking going on to extract the most valuable assets out of scarce European resources?

Romania already do this though, it's called Bucharesti Wolves, they've been in the Amlin for 8 years, and though they usually win a match or two, they won't come even close to testing the RABO teams.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Did the Celtic unions actually mention the announcements yesterday refer to the ERC?

Did the Italians comment?

Is fraking going on to extract the most valuable assets out of scarce European resources?

No; and yes, the exact same, but in Italian; down with feicin fracking  

ChequeredJersey wrote:The ERC and PRL and FFR and LNR and the Unions and basically everyone involved (except maybe the RFU, it's hard to tell whether their silence has been clever or just indecisive) have handled this entire affair appallingly. It is hard to believe that these are professional businessmen

Well apparently its explained because they are all psychopaths, well 4% of them are (the other 96% who knows)

If you understand the point about psychopathic traits then the failure to negotiate becomes easier to understand.  4% are psychopaths as defined by a score on a  scale, many may more have traits without the full condition.  Its a spectrum disorder like autism

arrogance, lack of empathy, ability to lie, inability to understand others, ruthlessness etc.

to have these traits almost seems to be a prerequisite for success in business

That sounds like the ERC