Michael Noel Brown v Rob Kearney

First topic message reminder :

As it says on the tin ,
Who is the better?

Scratch wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:To be fair to brown though...he's been playing to this level for years now...he's not just a one season wonder....

This is his first international season of note, when did he debut was it 2007 or 2008?   

Playing for Quins has been his highest achievement until now.

Hard to argue with that as he scored his first try this year. Probably didnt help getting selected on the wing last year.

Yes but his form and levels of performance have been at this current standard for many years now...he simply hasnt been picked which has been the topic of discussion on here for many years....

Scratch wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:To be fair to brown though...he's been playing to this level for years now...he's not just a one season wonder....

This is his first international season of note, when did he debut was it 2007 or 2008?   

Playing for Quins has been his highest achievement until now.

Erm....nope...he's played for England before...when he was young and not as developed.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but his form and levels of performance have been at this current standard for many years now...he simply hasnt been picked which has been the topic of discussion on here for many years....

He had at least 20 England caps before yet never really stood out as he did this year.

Whether he was given a fair crack back in 2007 is another question but he has improved since then. Anyway, at the moment he has Bly been great internationally for 6 months, and useful but flawed out of position before that. This is undeniable, though referring to his debut is disingenuous and either shows a deliberate attempt to misconstrue information or a lack of knowledge. When he's still tearing up trees this time next year, I'm sure you'll reevaluate your opinion, Scratch

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but his form and levels of performance have been at this current standard for many years now...he simply hasnt been picked which has been the topic of discussion on here for many years....

He had at least 20 England caps before yet never really stood out as he did this year.

How many we're in a position he plays at all at Club level?

Shock horror England player plays well in club position

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but his form and levels of performance have been at this current standard for many years now...he simply hasnt been picked which has been the topic of discussion on here for many years....

He had at least 20 England caps before yet never really stood out as he did this year.

For country that is correct...but after those early caps he went away and improved himself beyond recognition. Players can improve you know Guns....

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but his form and levels of performance have been at this current standard for many years now...he simply hasnt been picked which has been the topic of discussion on here for many years....

He had at least 20 England caps before yet never really stood out as he did this year.

How many we're in a position he plays at all at Club level?

Dont understand what you are trying to say?

I have to be honest I had written him off as an England player after seeing play previously for England, but he went back to Quins and really worked hard on his game and deserved his call up.

But it was a mistake to play him on the wing as he clearly isn't a winger, but he is the best FB in the NH at the moment by a country mile, this Rob ??? Lions legend guy can't touch him tbh.

The thing is about test rugby is that sometimes you can be perhaps 4th or 5th choice and still get caps.

Mike Brown is a very good example. He got his first 3 caps on summer tours (2 in 07 when England went to SA without their top 30 players and 1 in NZ under similar ciscumstances).
Unions need to tour to maximise revenue and also fulfil obligations with other unions so even though they may be sending out a mickey mouse XV, its technically a capped match.

In reality he only got his genuine debut in the 2012 6N where he only played wing or 3/4s sub.
Brown will never be able to take a man on from the outside, thats not his game as sheer pace is the thing he lacks. But from 15 he has the guile to spot and break through gaps. To support this, his boot is near Frans Steyn-esque.

Its like putting Courtney Lawes at blindside, George North at outside and Stuart Hogg at 10.... sure they can play the position but its no where near their best.... same with Brown at wing.

Take away those 3 meaningless matches which didn't even resemble a saxons XV and the players had little/no cohesion and until the Argentina summer tour in 2013 (during the Lions) he had started 1 match in his preferred position.... that was only 8-9 months ago.

Scrumpy wrote:I have to be honest I had written him off as an England player after seeing play previously for England, but he went back to Quins and really worked hard on his game and deserved his call up.

But it was a mistake to play him on the wing as he clearly isn't a winger, but he is the best FB in the NH at the moment by a country mile, this Rob ??? Lions legend guy can't touch him tbh.

He is a different player to Kearney and Halfpenny who are also top full backs. I doubt any Welshman would swap Brown for 1/2p and as an Irishman I wouldnt swap him for Kearney.

Brown is good but he wasnt perfect in the 6 nations. Prone to a bit of hot headness and his defense wasnt great particularly v France. As they say you should never let the ball bounce in rugby if you are a fullback. He learned his lesson and fielded very well v Ireland though. All in all good value for his 4 tries and player of the tournament gong.

Brown wasn't responsable for letting the ball bounce, Goode was FB and Nowell was the winger!  

May broke his nose and was off the field, good to see you guys have watched all the games and taken in what you have seen to be able to judge Brown!   

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I have to be honest I had written him off as an England player after seeing play previously for England, but he went back to Quins and really worked hard on his game and deserved his call up.

But it was a mistake to play him on the wing as he clearly isn't a winger, but he is the best FB in the NH at the moment by a country mile, this Rob ??? Lions legend guy can't touch him tbh.

He is a different player to Kearney and Halfpenny who are also top full backs. I doubt any Welshman would swap Brown for 1/2p and as an Irishman I wouldnt swap him for Kearney.

Brown is good but he wasnt perfect in the 6 nations. Prone to a bit of hot headness and his defense wasnt great particularly v France. As they say you should never let the ball bounce in rugby if you are a fullback. He learned his lesson and fielded very well v Ireland though. All in all good value for his 4 tries and player of the tournament gong.

Disagree, he's aggressive and doesnt back down...even upset the Irish by standing up to GOD. But hes not hot headed.

And on this form i wouldnt swap him for Kearney or Halfpenny. In fact ill go so far to say Halfpenny looks like Gatland has trained his game out of him...hes just a kicker. Id prefer Hogg over Halfpenny.

I have respect for him for squaring up to BOD. Dont think any Irish fans are too bothered by that. This is fine as long as you dont let it affect your game.

Id prefer Hogg over all of them to be honest. Cracking player.

Hogg, really?

Scrumpy wrote:Hogg, really?

He is really really gifted. Best attacking player in the NH IMO. Very slippy and hard to tackle, great hands.

Still inexperienced and plays for a poor team but he potentially could be a superstar.

Nah, I just don't see it, he is a good player in a poor team hence why he stands out.

Plus he has a hot head and doesn't put his team first!

He messed up v Wales but isnt really a hot head. Out of character. Would love it if he played for Ireland, he would rip it up.

Too slow, too skinny, too ugly, too old, new boy, trouble-maker, not the best FB in his street    .  Good job Mike proved the doubters wrong and won the damn thing  

Here's to Mike Brown  Player of the Championship for 2014

Scrumpy wrote:Here's to Mike Brown  Player of the Championship for 2014

Here's to Kearney, Hogg and Halfpenny, Lions tourists 2013!!!

Gatlands Lions!

Last year I think Brown (at wing) still had the highest yardage of any of the England players, just never looked like scoring.

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Here's to Mike Brown  Player of the Championship for 2014

Here's to Kearney, Hogg and Halfpenny, WINNING Lions tourists 2013!!!

fixed for you!

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Here's to Mike Brown  Player of the Championship for 2014

Here's to Kearney, Hogg and Halfpenny, WINNING Lions tourists 2013!!!

It is becoming patently obvious that having not won the 6 Nations England fans have thrwon everything they have into the Mike Brown is actually Jesus campaign. Just never knew God was so into rugby but then if he is of course he would send his kids down to play for England.   

Funny how Brown and his buddies didnt need any help from those guys vs Australia in the AI's

I just don't think Halfpenny is a top FB, his goal kicking masks a lot of average attributes. He has the odd good game but is often pretty average.

I don't rate a FB on his goal kicking.

England won a triple crown too which I reckon is a pretty good achievement given there havent been too many of them in recent years and they havent done it since 2003.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just don't think Halfpenny is a top FB, his goal kicking masks a lot of average attributes. He has the odd good game but is often pretty average.

I don't rate a FB on his goal kicking.

or his tackling obviously   

Team achievements matter little when comparing players.

I don't rate Stephen Donald over Sexton because of his recent WC winners medal or for one minute think Heaslip is a better player than Parisse because of Ireland winning the 6N.

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Here's to Mike Brown  Player of the Championship for 2014

Here's to Kearney, Hogg and Halfpenny, Lions tourists 2013!!!

I agree, here's to them. Doesn't diminish from Mike to acknowledge excellence in other players last season

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just don't think Halfpenny is a top FB, his goal kicking masks a lot of average attributes. He has the odd good game but is often pretty average.

I don't rate a FB on his goal kicking.

or his tackling obviously   

To be honest, tackling would be at the bottom of the list of attributes to look for in a full back in the modern game. If you check the stats in most international games, they make at the very most about 3 tackles a game. It really isn't a big part of a fullback's game.

Nowadays the most important thing for a 15 has to be his attacking attributes and counter attacking ability. Defensively, being good under the high ball and positioning is more important than tackling as well.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just don't think Halfpenny is a top FB, his goal kicking masks a lot of average attributes. He has the odd good game but is often pretty average.

I don't rate a FB on his goal kicking.

or his tackling obviously   

To be honest, tackling would be at the bottom of the list of attributes to look for in a full back in the modern game.  If you check the stats in most international games, they make at the very most about 3 tackles a game.  It really isn't a big part of a fullback's game.

Nowadays the most important thing for a 15 has to be his attacking attributes and counter attacking ability.  Defensively, being good under the high ball and positioning is more important than tackling as well.

Totally agree Rory.

I wouldn't exactly say Halfpenny is a rock anyway, he's solid defensively, no more. A FB needs an attacking threat/ability to counter or a team becomes predictable. We suffered the same fate last year with Goode at FB, hd offered little threat as Halfpenny does.

Halfpenny is a world class goal kicker, probably the best going but nothing else in his locker would considered outstanding as a FB.

We seen when Liam Williams came in for Wales that they could run with the ball so what has Halfpenny been doing?

Bit harsh re Halfpenny. He is very good under high balls, good positioning, great attitude, real pro, mentally very very strong, incredible conditioning. Lets no forget he was a genuine contender for world player of the year 2013. Brown has a bit of development to do to be as good as Halfpenny even if he had a better 2014 so far.

I just think Halfpenny gets rated because of his goal kicking, it's not often he makes a break or beats a man. I think he's a pretty bog standard Int full back.

His a better winger tbh but Gatland his big boys on the wing!

I still raye Halfpenny highly, and he is a very good FB. But brave as he is his tackling puts himself at Hugh risk and his positioning and kick defence is no better than Brown's. he is certainly in worse form but a more proven player. However, scratch and GG etc are perfectly sensible to be skeptical about Brown's prowess after such a short spell at the top (though as I say comments re him being capped in 2007 are missing the point hugely as are comments about him not shining out of position). I'm am supremely confident they will see that he is an exceptionally good player soon though as I am confident that if he stays fit he will only get better. I wouldn't swap him for another fullback in the world and if Folau or HP or Kearmey or Dagg came to Quins they'd be playing winger

When Brown has been considered for IRB World Player, won two 6 Nations campaigns, won 50 caps and scored 400 points, been voted Player of the Lions series 2013 having scored over 40 winning points in Lions tests, slotted 40 kicks and scored 3 tries on that tour…then perhaps i will compare him with Brown, who, i repeat, has had ONE good season and just scored his first try having debuted at the same time as Halfpenny.

That does not diminish Brown, it just puts difference in their achievements in their true perspective.

You take away Halfpennys place kicking and there just isn't much to shout about, I've never rated him as highly as others and he's just starting to find his level imo.

Halfpenny is actually a really good player, but considering he looks about as committed as all the Welsh internationals do when playing for their regions* and he plays under an international coach who's philosophy for fullback play is kick first, ask questions later... we don't get to see his full range of talents. We won't get to see the potential he has blossom. His potential isn't in the grand Gatland game plan. Do you think Mike Brown would be given license to play like he does for England if he was Welsh? Can't see it.

*(this low-intensity training match will keep me fit until the next time Wales play, that said, I don't see much reason to give it more than 50%)

So what's Scratch's opinion on Folau then? Or Le Roux? Or Hogg? Or Dulin?

ChequeredJersey wrote:So what's Scratch's opinion on Folau then? Or Le Roux? Or Hogg? Or Dulin?

I'll take a stab at they're all better than Brown although judging by some of his comments he probably doesn't know who a few of them are.

But Folau has won nothing at all in union! Including club stuff. He's also (though he has a better earlier try scoring record) only had one good international season (including some mediocre games too) mad has looked out of position on the wing. He must, by Scratch's logic, be an overrated player and worse than Brown. The others even more so

But he's not English so he gets a higher default rating

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:So what's Scratch's opinion on Folau then? Or Le Roux? Or Hogg? Or Dulin?

I'll take a stab at they're all better than Brown although judging by some of his comments he probably doesn't know who a few of them are.

Another puerile comment from you Pooly, are you actually capable of constructive analysis or do you just get off making stupid, pointless comments at every opportunity?

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:So what's Scratch's opinion on Folau then? Or Le Roux? Or Hogg? Or Dulin?

I'll take a stab at they're all better than Brown although judging by some of his comments he probably doesn't know who a few of them are.

Another puerile comment from you Pooly, are you actually capable of constructive analysis or do you just get off making stupid, pointless comments at every opportunity?

Obviously hes been learning from you

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:So what's Scratch's opinion on Folau then? Or Le Roux? Or Hogg? Or Dulin?

I'll take a stab at they're all better than Brown although judging by some of his comments he probably doesn't know who a few of them are.

Another puerile comment from you Pooly, are you actually capable of constructive analysis or do you just get off making stupid, pointless comments at every opportunity?

Scratch, Sarge is more than capable of constructive analysis and debates...he does it regularly...it just becomes a pointless effort when certain people arent here to debate back, just here to get peoples backs up...

yeh!

what he said.   

It seems that final warnings over this trend of playing the man not the argument have fallen on deaf ears... and so we need to move onto bans as promised.