England RWC Thread

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Next match pre RWC is England vs Italy 6th September.

22/09/2019 England v Tonga 11:15 GMT
26/09/2019 England v USA 11:45 GMT
05/10/2019 England v Argentina 09:00 GMT
12/10/2019 England v France 09:15 GMT

England Squad:

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester, 86 caps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, 12), Tom Curry (Sale, 11), Ellis Genge (Leicester, 10), Jamie George (Saracens, 37), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27), George Kruis (Saracens, 32), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59), Courtney Lawes (Northampton, 72), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton, 1), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22), Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1), Sam Underhill (Bath, 9), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53), Mark Wilson (Newcastle/Sale, 13).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath, 5), Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56), Piers Francis (Northampton, 5), Willi Heinz (Gloucester, 1), Jonathan Joseph (Bath, 41), Jonny May (Leicester, 45), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath, uncapped), Jack Nowell (Exeter, 33), Henry Slade (Exeter, 22), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester, 33), Anthony Watson (Bath, 34), Ben Youngs (Leicester, 86).

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:51 am

lostinwales wrote:Can't help but notice on the BBC HYS about the England selection for the weekend that there is a poster called 'beshocked' who seems to have a thing about the non selection of Itoje last RWC.

You just don't want to see less users here but occasionally there are people who we would not miss.

Please send me a link.

I want to ask him about sarries salary cap cheating

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Post by BamBam on Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:04 am

Fill your boots

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49568369

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:40 am

Sends shivers down my spine. Spouting how hes been proven right as players who are 4 years older are either getting picked or have dropped away. Hes quiet about may of course but wing has been relegated to not really important! Genius.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:00 am

If a player like Slade, Nowell  who are still not up too full fitness  but have been named in the squad. If they are ruled (out ) how does a team stand by replaceing them?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:37 am

Nothing has changed with beshocked by the way

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:45 am

majesticimperialman wrote:If a player like Slade, Nowell  who are still not up too full fitness  but have been named in the squad. If they are ruled (out ) how does a team stand by replaceing them?

Any player can be replaced. If they are replaced before a certain date (as robbo outlined last time that was when a team "officially arrives") the I jured player can be called up later should another player need replacing. If however they are replaced when the tournament starts they cannot return.

So theoretically Nowell could drop out this week, be replace by any player (ie does not have to be like for like) and then come back I to the squad later should an injury occur. Not sure if an independent doctor assesses the injury.

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:21 am

Beshocked is still arguing about the world cup 4 years ago?? That lad needs to find another hobby

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Post by Taylorman on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:51 am

Wouldnt be playing Billy with his injury rate. Players deemed critical to a sides success that should be wheeled out for the must wins only from here on in. He can get the required match play during pool play. Get that he should have played the matches to date, but dont get this one.
Perhaps hes on a short leash for this match, but as always, injuries choose you, you don't choose them.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:If a player like Slade, Nowell  who are still not up too full fitness  but have been named in the squad. If they are ruled (out ) how does a team stand by replaceing them?

Any player can be replaced. If they are replaced before a certain date (as robbo outlined last time that was when a team "officially arrives") the I jured player can be called up later should another player need replacing. If however they are replaced when the tournament starts they cannot return.

So theoretically Nowell could drop out this week, be replace by any player (ie does not have to be like for like) and then come back I to the squad later should an injury occur. Not sure if an independent doctor assesses the injury.
One thing to add: any player selected with a known injury, can still be replaced because of that injury. The players doesn't have to get "more injured" to qualify for replacement. In most such cases. it will just be that the player failed to recover in time.

Sometimes you have to gamble with injuries. In 2003, Richard Hill was injured in the opening pool match against Georgia. Woodward kept him in the squad when it was clear he couldn't play any more pool matches, and even missed the Quarter Final against Wales.

Our schedule this year means the last two pool matches, and any knock-out rounds are key, so you'd really want any player who has missed out on the warm-ups to be able to play an early pool game, to show they are ready for selection later.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:44 pm

You also need the players picked in the squad to turn up for one of the first two pool games because otherwise it puts a big strain on everyone else and maybe you negatively impact preparations for Argentina.

Ideally France beat Argentina, we win our first 3 and then the pressure comes off the France game and it doesn't become must win. That way we can rest anyone with a knock or niggle and the players can also stay mentally fresher (e.g. we don't have 4 consecutive knockouts).

I'm not saying go out to lose it, but it will give us more flexibility. Looking at potential knockouts, I don't think either path will be easier or harder than the other, so 1st or 2nd doesn't matter as much. From this far out, it's hard to pick whether Australia or Wales will top their pool, same with NZ/SA, whether Ireland will make a SF etc, so you can't start navigating a path. Just play the pools as they come and then prepare for whatever comes next.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:14 pm

Isn't it usually about now that McConnochie has to pull out injured?

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:56 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Isn't it usually about now that McConnochie has to pull out injured?


Indeed:

Bath Winger Withdraws, Ashton Surprise Call-Up

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:11 pm

LT, you have listening to beshocked again ( he is still living in 2015 ). Having said that I don't think Sarries have got an EQ winger that might fit the bill these days.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:26 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:LT, you have listening to beshocked again ( he is still living in 2015 ). Having said that I don't think Sarries have got an EQ winger that might fit the bill these days.

Goode and Daly to wing?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:42 am

robbo277 wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:LT, you have listening to beshocked again ( he is still living in 2015 ). Having said that I don't think Sarries have got an EQ winger that might fit the bill these days.

Goode and Daly to wing?

Mallins to 15? Lewington to come in at wing?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:30 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:LT, you have listening to beshocked again ( he is still living in 2015 ). Having said that I don't think Sarries have got an EQ winger that might fit the bill these days.

Goode and Daly to wing?

Mallins to 15? Lewington to come in at wing?
I know this isn't a serious line of thought but should reiterate that Malins and Goode are currently both injured (Malins has broken his foot).

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:33 am

Real shame for Malins he looks like he could be a special player if he can just polish up the last few bits of his game, he's got great footwork. Blow to be injured heading into the start of the season when he'd have got game time.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:35 am

I am not feeling well, doctor says I have a dose of beshockeditis. Having looked at what EJ is doing,  just want to show how I was always right. Harry Mallinder is the best back in the Premiership, he has every skill a back needs and some forwards as well. He has pace, size, is magnificent under the high ball ( doesn’t always catch it, but just looks so good), a magnificent passing game be it a pop pass or a 30m cut out one. Nothing is an effort for Harry.

He can and has played as first choice every position from 10 -15 in the Premiership (don’t tell me that it was because Saints had an injury crisis, it was all on merit).

He should be going to Japan as the utility back, no one else can cover all those positions. Okay, he hasn’t played for knocking on a year, class is class. He is ready for Saints in the forthcoming season, therefore ready to claim his place as Prince Harry, rugby royalty.

Even his hair looks unruffled at the  end of a game.
.
.
.
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Seriously, if he hadn’t had the vast majority of last season out, a lot of that may have come to pass, he was around the squad and does have all those attributes, with work, even the catching might have improved to the extent that he actually came away with the ball. He would have probably been a better bet than Francis.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:11 am

How Greg Bateman didn't make this squad I'll never know. When I was a Sarries fan I thought Jackson Wray was the most underrated solid premiership player. As a converted Tigers fan I've got to say it's an outrage that the best hooker, come tighthead, come loosehead, who sidestepped Mike Brown has been left out of the squad.

I once heard he captained the Dorking U11s for the final three games of the season as well.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm

king_carlos wrote:When I was a Sarries fan ....................................... As a converted Tigers fan 

Does that make you a reverse glory seeker? Abandon a team when it id doing well and plump for a no-hoper?

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:59 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:When I was a Sarries fan ....................................... As a converted Tigers fan 

Does that make you a reverse glory seeker? Abandon a team when it id doing well and plump for a no-hoper?

It's shows great moral fibre

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:06 pm

What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?

A win, no injuries. Set pieces functioning nicely. Realistically Italy aren't much of a challenge but will be keen to try and go to the RWC on a high note so it's an unwanted potential banana skin. They'll be going in hard and we just want to give some players game time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:01 pm

As the feedback thread is done just like to say ta for the changes to phone version. I have a PM ability to get told off now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:02 pm

Think tonight is going to tell us little. Personally expecting a very comfortable match. Expect lots of driving maul tries and a return to the kicking game.

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:03 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?

A win, no injuries. Set pieces functioning nicely. Realistically Italy aren't much of a challenge but will be keen to try and go to the RWC on a high note so it's an unwanted potential banana skin. They'll be going in hard and we just want to give some players game time.

Thought the same four years ago and we lost Halfpenny and Webb vs Italy in the last warm up match.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:17 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?

A win, no injuries. Set pieces functioning nicely. Realistically Italy aren't much of a challenge but will be keen to try and go to the RWC on a high note so it's an unwanted potential banana skin. They'll be going in hard and we just want to give some players game time.

Thought the same four years ago and we lost Halfpenny and Webb vs Italy in the last warm up match.

If we were to lose Youngs that would create quite the conundrum as he's been the first choice for Eddie's reign with a number of back ups on rotation. Would leave us exposed were he to be injured but he needs the game time as he missed the end of the season through injury and isn't back to his best yet.

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:29 pm

We all wish that no one gets injured. Let’s hope nothing happens over the weekend to file players out so close to the start of The RWC

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:35 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?

A win, no injuries. Set pieces functioning nicely. Realistically Italy aren't much of a challenge but will be keen to try and go to the RWC on a high note so it's an unwanted potential banana skin. They'll be going in hard and we just want to give some players game time.

Thought the same four years ago and we lost Halfpenny and Webb vs Italy in the last warm up match.

If we were to lose Youngs that would create quite the conundrum as he's been the first choice for Eddie's reign with a number of back ups on rotation. Would leave us exposed were he to be injured but he needs the game time as he missed the end of the season through injury and isn't back to his best yet.

By cap count, doesn't it go Youngs, Care [now out for 8 weeks with an ankle injury] ....enormous yawning gap... Wigglesworth [ret'd], Heinz, Simpson, Robson... or something like that? If we lost Youngs we'd be reliant on completely green scrum halves.

That said, there's a good template for newish scrum halves to establish themselves in the team. Andy Gomarsall did it in 2007 - he sat down with Wilkinson and asked for detailed instructions on what was needed of him, then followed them. Heinz looks to have done something similar, so I assume Eddie will have plans to get his backups up to speed.
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Post by lostinwales on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:40 pm

Probably too early to say this but it does seem like the selection of Heinz has been a masterstroke. Not because he's especially brilliant at any particular aspect of scrum half play, but more because he has the sense and maturity to fit into the team and do what is needed.

I appreciate that winning the RWC does seem a real long shot at this stage, but I think that Eddy has put us in the best possible position we could manage to do so.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:44 pm

Heinz has impressed me. He does the job. Doesn't have the flair of Dawson, Bracken, Care or an in-form Youngs, but in a team with plenty of flair players we can afford that in favour of someone who gets it done.

Though I do miss the option of having a scrum half on the bench who can change things up... but since Care has managed his periodic pre-RWC freak injury, it's not really an option.
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Post by robbo277 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:59 am

LondonTiger wrote:What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?

Not going to be able to watch tonight, but the win should be a given. As long as there are no injuries on top of that then it's a good run out.

More than the attack, which has looked good, I'd like to see England put in a really mean defensive performance. Our line speed is normally great and we make some huge highlight reel hits behind the gainline, but we often back that up with a silly penalty that gives an easy 3 when the attack is going nowhere.

To nil them would be nice. It would send a statement before the showpiece.

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Post by Heaf on Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:44 am

Got your wish for the nil ... LCD hobbled off but hopefully not bad.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:44 am

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:What do people want to get out of this evening's game. Sounding like a very bad corporate speaker - What does success look like?


To nil them would be nice. It would send a statement before the showpiece.

Wish I had asked you for the lottery numbers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:51 am

That was a proper friendly game. Nothing really learnt.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:56 am

England RWC Thread - Page 3 Img-2015


Much of the game was a long way away  Cool

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Post by robbo277 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:14 pm

What was the game like? Obviously happy noone got hurt and we managed to nil them, but was it fill intensity or just going through the motions? Did we defend well or did Italy attack poorly?

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:44 pm

We defended really well. 

I felt that at times it lacked real intensity, and we did seem to be trying a few things. The change of props on 35 minutes looked pre-planned as did the "injury" to Sinckler that saw Marler come back on. 

Francis was appalling. I doubt that midfield trio will ever start a game together again, but it really did not work. (noting that across the full 80 Marchant had a good first start) 

McConnochie looked busy but lacked some real threat.

All in all happy with that. Pretty sure we added no more injuries, but the news that Mako will miss the first two games is of concern.

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Post by yappysnap on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:49 pm

Ive seen online a lot of praise for Synkler and Marchant. Obv a friendly and against Italy, but Opta report that Marchant beat 10 defenders in that game, that's more than any English centre since their records began in 2010.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:55 pm

Just watched the game this morning. Thought Italy was a little bit unlucky not to score a try  in the half.

Watson had a good game at full back.


Over all the first was a bit touch and go for me Italy fighting hard to keep England at bay and only giving England three penalties and no try's was a good thing tested England's  attack.

The second half was a far better game from England with the bench being used and showing how dangerous England can be on the attack.

Mako not being fit for the first two/three games at the RWC is a bit concerning for England though.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:57 pm

Looks like Jones is treating Mako Vunipola the same way Woodward treated Richard Hill.

Slightly concerning Nowell and Mako are still unfit. Less of an issue during the warm-ups, because you can fill out training sessions with non-squad players. Can't do that in Japan.

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Post by robbo277 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:59 pm

Thanks for the summary, I need to get onto some full highlights but saw Marchant's try and it looked good by him. Could Marchant for Slade/Joseph be a goer if there are injury concerns?

Mako missing the first two isn't ideal. We should be able to manage across those two fixtures but he comes into Argentina cold and possibly not at all.

More and more the first two games are just going to be about taking 10 points, minimising injuries and taking stock. At least Tonga aren't looking too strong.

With the doubt on Mako, I'd be tempted to replace Nowell with Moon or Williams and then if/when Mako doesnt make it then drop him out for Nowell or a back row or 9 if we're desperate there.

I feel that Mako, Nowell, Joseph and Slade all carrying injuries into the tournament may leave us short in those first two games. 1 or 2 you can wear but if too many are going to miss the first couple of games then we'll need a rethink.

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Post by hugehandoff on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:28 am

The worry with the players who missed out on all/most of the warm ups is how long it takes them to get up to speed. You cannot expect them to hit the ground running when they have not played a single competitive game of rugby since Apr/May. We have too many in this bracket with Mako, Nowell, Slade and Ruaridh McConnochie. If these boys are called upon for a knock out match I will be very nervous. Not ideal at all, albeit Mako is well worth the gamble and at least Nowell and Slade have lots of experience. Ruaridh is a strange selection for me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:32 am

He wasnt great yesterday was he. Decent defensively but added little going forward. I suppose it's a safety first option if we need to.

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Post by hugehandoff on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:44 am

The boys leave tomorrow for Japan and hopefully no new major injury scares from last night. For Tonga I would play our strongest side and the B team take on USA. After that probably A team all the way with a couple of tweaks depending on who the opposition are.

Strongest team likely to be for Tonga:

Genge
George
Sickler
Kruis
Itoje
Curry
Billy
Underhill
Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Manu
Coackanisaga
Daly

Bench
Marler
Cowan-Dickie
Cole
Lawes
Wilson
Heinz
Slade/Francis
Watson

USA
Marler
Cowan-Dickie
Cole
Launchbury
Lawes
Ludlam
Wilson
Underhill
Heinz
Farrell
Francis/Slade
JJ
Ruaridh
Nowell
Watson

Bench
Genge
Singleton
Sickler
Kruis
Curry
Youngs
Ford
Francis/Slade
Cockanasiga

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:56 am

Theres a couple of potential tweaks there in terms of who jones may feel his staring 15 are. Possibly marler wilson tuilagi slade midfield and watson in the wing. Theres certainly a number of different ways this team can play.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:58 am

I would have Watson ahead of Cokanasiga in my full strength team.

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Post by hugehandoff on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:09 am

Agree re tweaks and a few differences here and there, but we are probably all agreed on variations of our strongest side for the last 2 pool matches and beyond. And that strongest side needs a hit out before they get down to business. Leaves only 1 match V USA for all the back ups.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:12 am

LondonTiger wrote:I would have Watson ahead of Cokanasiga in my full strength team.

I'd drop Daly to the bench and have Watson at 15. Two playmakers in Ford/Farrell, two power and pace guys in Manu/Cockanasiga and then two speedsters in Watson/May.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:49 am

I just feel that in Tests we lose too much from Watson's attacking game when he moves to FB. I think there is negligible difference between his defence and Dalys. 

My issue with Cokanasiga is that right now he feels one dimensional. Italy handled him with ease it seemed. However perhaps with Manu also there defences cannot double up on both.

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