England RWC Thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

Next match pre RWC is England vs Italy 6th September.

22/09/2019 England v Tonga 11:15 GMT
26/09/2019 England v USA 11:45 GMT
05/10/2019 England v Argentina 09:00 GMT
12/10/2019 England v France 09:15 GMT

England Squad:

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester, 86 caps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, 12), Tom Curry (Sale, 11), Ellis Genge (Leicester, 10), Jamie George (Saracens, 37), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27), George Kruis (Saracens, 32), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59), Courtney Lawes (Northampton, 72), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton, 1), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22), Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1), Sam Underhill (Bath, 9), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53), Mark Wilson (Newcastle/Sale, 13).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath, 5), Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56), Piers Francis (Northampton, 5), Willi Heinz (Gloucester, 1), Jonathan Joseph (Bath, 41), Jonny May (Leicester, 45), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath, uncapped), Jack Nowell (Exeter, 33), Henry Slade (Exeter, 22), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester, 33), Anthony Watson (Bath, 34), Ben Youngs (Leicester, 86).

[No 7&1/2]

Not placed a bet on it yet mikey. Rather spend it on beer.

[Collapse2005]

Wales got a grand slam and England only won 3 games!! Not sure Wales are getting the credit they deserve here.

Ireland also won three games by the way and are considered desperately off form.

Wales thoroughly deserved the Grand Slam, however, it’s whether that form can be replicated on the World Stage.
Wales relied on a very strong defence and scored relatively few tries. They played the 2 strongest opponents at home and of course the WC is not at the PS.
The warm ups can’t be relied upon totally, as far as results are concerned, for form because of the relative strength of the teams put out against each other.

However, most observers felt that Ireland and England looked stronger overall in those games and question marks arose not only about the Welsh defence but their set piece.

The overall betting is about right
NZ 6/4
SA Eng 9/2
Ire 10/1
Wal 12/1

with the most popular bet being Wales.

A lot of observers have written Ireland off totally while England do seem to be getting talked up a lot probably based on the big score v Ireland.

Personally I don't really read much into Ireland's warm up wins v Wales and I wouldn't get overly excited if I were English with the big score v Ireland except aside from obviously reaffirmation that England are a really good side which everyone already knew anyway.

One thing that I would point to however, regarding England's chances is that over the 4 year world cup cycle only NZ have won more games than England followed very closely behind by Ireland, Wales come in in 4th position with a reasonable drop in win rate. As such only really England, Ireland and NZ have been consistently winning games.

To me South Africa are a much improved side and flying high at the moment but I wouldnt put a cent on them at the RWC given they haven't put a run of 7 wins together in the world cup cycle. Their best run was 5 wins in a row when they played a three test series v France followed by two tests v Argentina. Aside from that 3 in a row is their best which they currently sit on with NZ to come on Saturday.

[maestegmafia]

You should enjoy this

https://youtu.be/2NuQ0bUztDY

[BigTrevsbigmac]

That was good

[Collapse2005]

Yeah I enjoyed it too

[maestegmafia]

Yeah I enjoyed it too

It was quite amusing.

[Rugby Fan]

Telegraph suggests England are leaning towards starting Ford and Farrell for Tonga. Slade is expected to be fit.

I hope we don't play Vunipola. You have to think Tonga, more than any other team, would want to leave their mark on him, and I'd prefer not to give them the opportunity.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-world-cup/2019/09/18/england-poised-start-playmakers-owen-farrell-george-ford-2019/

[robbo277]

If Wilson was fit, not starting Vunipola might be an option, but I think he'll start.

How many players that are "targeted" actually end up injured? Does it ever happen? Most injuries normally look fairly innocuous incidents. Like Mako's knee, Toner just wrapped and put his weight down through him to get him to ground, and his knee twisted under him.

[king_carlos]

Billy will play one and be rested for the other of the first 2 matches you'd presume. After these 2 we will see near full strength (with reasonable rotation in strong positions) each weekend until eliminated you'd presume.

With no other number 8 in the squad, resting Billy against Argentina or France isn't a great option. I actually think there's some logic to John Mitchell saying that Billy needs to play though. He's a player who builds confidence and form the more he's on the pitch.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Underhill 7.Curry 8.Vunipola

1.Genge 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Lawes 7.Ludlam 8.Wilson

I'd probably look to use the strength in the tight 5 to rotate like that for the first two games. Get the set-piece bang on against Tonga with Marler and Cole's experience at scrum and the Sarries lineout.

[lostinwales]

Dallaglio played every minute of England's games during his last RWC

[robbo277]

I'm sure there are plenty of England fans who would play Billy once and rest him once, myself most probably included. But I wouldn't be surprised if Jones used him twice. Maybe gave him two 50 minute stints while he rotated his flankers and locks.

After all, most of us were surprised he played every warm-up game.

[robbo277]

Dallaglio played every minute of England's games during his last RWC

Back then the Tier 1 nations got favourable schedules, and only had to play weekends. So although it's still a decent achievement, he would never have been doing two games in a week.

[king_carlos]

Dallaglio played every minute of England's games during his last RWC

Being pedantic his last RWC was 2007 when he came of the bench in most his games. In 2003 he played every minute though. Even against Uruguay when Hill was injured, Back rested and Corry covering second row.

6.Hill, Worsley
7.Back, Moody
8.Dallagio, Corry

Quite some back row options there!

Ben Kay played every minute in 2007.

[LondonTiger]

Dallaglio played every minute of England's games during his last RWC

Being pedantic his last RWC was 2007 when he came of the bench in most his games. In 2003 he played every minute though. Even against Uruguay when Hill was injured, Back rested and Corry covering second row.

6.Hill, Worsley
7.Back, Moody
8.Dallagio, Corry

Quite some back row options there!

Ben Kay played every minute in 2007.

Aye. The strength in a side can often be gauged by how strong the back-ups are.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Starting 23

England: 15 Elliot Daly, 14 Anthony Watson, 13 Manu Tuilagi , 12 Owen Farrell (c), 11 Jonny May, 10 George Ford , 9 Ben Youngs ; 1 Joe Marler, 2 Jamie George, 3 Kyle Sinckler, 4 Courtney Lawes, 5 Maro Itoje, 6 Tom Curry, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Billy Vunipola

Replacements: 16 Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17 Ellis Genge, 18 Dan Cole, 19 George Kruis , 20 Lewis Ludlam, 21 Willi Heinz, 22 Henry Slade, 23 Jonathan Joseph

Strongest squad possible to start bearing in mind injuries!

Joe & Mark still have minor knee issues to overcome.

[majesticimperialman]

That is a strong 23 for this first match. Getting off to a good start, laying down a marker for the rest of the tournament.

[robbo277]

Is that our strongest 23, injuries dependent?

Mako to start
Wilson in for Ludlam
Joe or Nowell in for Joseph

What do we think of some of the big calls? Marler ahead of Genge in the pecking order? Lawes ahead of Kruis? Farrell at 12?

Thinking of it, Lawes for Kruis may be more horses-for-courses. Tonga are known for their physicality and their carries, rather than their lineout. Having Lawes allows as to match the first with a small detriment to the latter, but we should still have enough there.

Regardless, this 23 should have enough for Tonga.

[Rinsure]

That's a side to make a statement.

What struck me is the mobility and pace around the park of the starting forwards; Lawes over Kruis is an improvement there, and when you think Joe Marler is arguably the slowest around the park then it's some pace in the pack.

I think the tempo we can set up front will create space pretty early, and the backs should enjoy themselves out wide.

Could be a long old day for Tonga.

[Soul Requiem]

That is quite some side to start out with, I think the USA will be happy seeing that.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

To my knowledge, no one on that bench has ever played at 8 in a Premiership match let alone an international, does that mean BV is going to play all 80?

[No 7&1/2]

It's possible. I'm sure I've seen curry cover 8 at sale though.

[LondonTiger]

With Wilson carrying a slight knock and not being risked, lack of cover at 8 was always a possible issue. Still believe Itoje should be pretty good there

[Rinsure]

Shame Cokanasiga's not in the 23, he's packed down at 8 for England before...

[EnglishReign]

Jonny May can slot in at 6, 7 or 8.

[bluestonevedder]

Jonny May can slot in at 6, 7 or 8.

'Slot in' is definitely the term.

Not quite sure Mako's ever got over that.

[lostinwales]

Looking around at the various predictions in the media it is interesting that although England are rated as one of the favourites (alongside SA with NZ way out in front) there are not many England players that figure among the 'ones to watch'.

I'd expect that to change over the next few weeks.

[maestegmafia]

Looks like a very strong selection for the first match. Good luck England fans...!

[lostinwales]

This was in reply to a post from Ebop which seems to have disappeared about who I'd expect to shine from England. These are the ones who I think will be most visible, not necessarily the ones doing the hard work.

Forwards
Sinckler, Itoje, Underhill and Curry. I am hoping the Vunipola brothers live up to expectations.

Backs. Farrell to be one of the most hated with many wondering why he's rated at all, while showing wonderful handling and kicking. For excitement Tuilagi - finally back to the shape and form he showed of a few years back. He's been out a long time but the injury woes seem finally to be in the past.

If you had to pick a list of players who have the potential to score the best try in the RWC then May should be there. We also have our very own giant Fijian wing. Fast and with great handling skills but he's a long way from the finished article. On the right day he'll do damage.

[Collapse2005]

Marler and Coles interview is total car crash stuff but also funny.

https://youtu.be/DTNAeQdbxq0

[EnglishReign]

Marler and Coles interview is total car crash stuff but also funny.

https://youtu.be/DTNAeQdbxq0

I get that Marler is trying to be awkward and funny but he always just comes across a bit of a disrespectful clown to me. Good prop though.

[Collapse2005]

Yeah it was a touch disrespectful although dont think he was trying to be

[No 7&1/2]

Ha. That's great. Typical funny stuff from those 2.

[Guest]

Hi again lads

Strong England team, but I am genuinely surprised to see Daly at 15. If his defending doesn't see him moved to the wing by the Argentina and France games, I'd be even more amazed. I can't believe Daly's last man defending is being overlooked as acceptable to EJ. This must be a 'game time' selection so he gets comfortable there as/when needed if Nowell is injured.

In reality, I'm not sure anymore. I'm amazed that Daly might be England's first choice 15, but it looks like that now.

[RiscaGame]

Yeah it was a touch disrespectful although dont think he was trying to be

Marler doesn’t try to be disrespectful ever, but you’d hope he might be a bit cuter after his trouble with Samson Lee.

That interview is the least professional thing I’ve ever seen though and whilst both props can’t help giggling like children etc, they’ve been sold down the river by the whole setup there.

[maestegmafia]

England team Doc Phil Riley has stepped down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49777559

[king_carlos]

England team Doc Phil Riley has stepped down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49777559

Concise article, interesting that Rob Young has returned, but the final paragraph smells like a journalist who wants to say more than they are allowed to let on!

More than 25 personnel have left in the wake of Jones taking charge four years ago, many of them signing non-disclosure agreements that are strictly enforced by the RFU.

[robbo277]

Hi again lads

Strong England team, but I am genuinely surprised to see Daly at 15. If his defending doesn't see him moved to the wing by the Argentina and France games, I'd be even more amazed. I can't believe Daly's last man defending is being overlooked as acceptable to EJ. This must be a 'game time' selection so he gets comfortable there as/when needed if Nowell is injured.

In reality, I'm not sure anymore. I'm amazed that Daly might be England's first choice 15, but it looks like that now.

I think as England fans we've learned to temper our surprise. A lot of people wouldn't have Daly at 15, but Eddie would every day a week and twice on Sundays. So it's at least not a shock every time it happens.

The positive is clear to see. He comes into the line and puts the wingers away on 2 on 1s (3 try assists and 1 for himself in the Six Nations) and offers a great kicking option (left footed in open play and long range goal-kicking). Does that outweigh the negatives in defence? For Eddie, yes they do.

[Guest]

Thing with EJ is to expect the unexpected though. I have little doubt he has gameplans/ideas he only plans to use once, against specific opposition, and you won't see it until the day.

With Daly at 15 - and correct me if I'm wrong - there were 3 'last man' tries he got stepped for when, in reality, a proper 15 wouldn't have been beaten. Either they'd have held them up enough to allow a cover tackle to get back, shepherded them in to another defender, or used the touchline.

Off the top of my head, the first was Michael Leitch against Japan, there was Gareth Davies against Wales, and there's definitely at least one more - Ireland, I think, but I've had too little sleep to remember. At least 3 tries which Mike Brown, for all his faults, wouldn't have allowed to be scored so easily.

I 'get' the rationale for Daly in the back 3, just not at 15 against the best tier 1 teams. He's not great under the high ball either. It seems an almost pointless design fault in the gameplan.

EDIT: Was it Sam Johnson's try in the 38-38 game?

[No 7&1/2]

It would be surprising for jones to switch now. Nowell was excellent at full back until injury in the prem final but hasn't played there very much at all. Watson has his detractors for his positioning at full back. Daly is the most experienced has the shirt and what jones is looking for. Its cost us already but as pointed out there are benefits.

[Soul Requiem]

Thing with EJ is to expect the unexpected though. I have little doubt he has gameplans/ideas he only plans to use once, against specific opposition, and you won't see it until the day.

With Daly at 15 - and correct me if I'm wrong - there were 3 'last man' tries he got stepped for when, in reality, a proper 15 wouldn't have been beaten. Either they'd have held them up enough to allow a cover tackle to get back, shepherded them in to another defender, or used the touchline.

Off the top of my head, the first was Michael Leitch against Japan, there was Gareth Davies against Wales, and there's definitely at least one more - Ireland, I think, but I've had too little sleep to remember. At least 3 tries which Mike Brown, for all his faults, wouldn't have allowed to be scored so easily.

I 'get' the rationale for Daly in the back 3, just not at 15 against the best tier 1 teams. He's not great under the high ball either. It seems an almost pointless design fault in the gameplan.

EDIT: Was it Sam Johnson's try in the 38-38 game?

Bundee Aki in the warms up is the Ireland one you're thinking of and i'm sure there was more than one try he was at fault for in that Scotland game.

[robbo277]

Miaow

You're not wrong but we don't have that complete option. Daly cant do what Mike Brown can do and Mike Brown cant do what Daly can. But we don't have a proven world class all rounder who can do everything.

It's a trade off and Jones has made his decision clear, even if we think he's wrong.

Our attack has never looked better. Guess we'll have to judge him on his results.

[Guest]

I understand that robbo. But even if you don't have a complete option, you can find balance - Wales are blessed with 2 full backs, totally different in style, but picking Liam when 1/2P plays mitigates his weaknesses a bit. Daly's been shifted from utility back to wing to 15, and that's a very technical position,
I just don't understand putting him at 15. Henshaw at 15 played a big part in helping England win the game in Dublin this year. Daly at 15 helped Wales in Cardiff. Watson had one chance in the warm ups, didn't he - didn't look great, admittedly - but at least plays 15 on and off for his club, no? Maybe he isn't the answer either, I don't know. I'm just surprised considering the way England play: big, strong start, early tries, and then as they tire, hold out the lead and keep the opposition at bay. It's almost a structural fault having Daly at 15 if you're playing a good kicking team, or one that makes linebreaks - maybe it pays off against the likes of France, but SA, NZ, Wales, Ireland, Australia? I dunno, I'd be surprised if EJ  persists with him in the knockouts. If it was just some aerial shakiness, maybe you could mitigate it, but the big one is his one on one defending for me - it's a very difficult skill and it's harsh to ask him to become world class at it in a short space of time.

As you say, let's wait and see. He adds more than he takes from England, but in RWC games, fine margins can be decisive, and all that potential and attacking ability might not get a chance to shine in a one off knockout game. Just seen Mapimpi barely receive the ball in attack v NZ and struggle defensively v Sevu Reece. These kind of games/performances happen, and even discounting the pace/power issues of Mike Brown/Alex Goode, I see what you're saying, but I don't believe EJ is just 'sticking' with Daly as is. I think we could see some sort of tactic, or even Nowell at 15, to help Daly out but have him on the field for everything he brings in attack/with the boot. He's basically been exposed so frequently in the last 12 months that the solution to that lack doesn't really seem to be Daly. Not in my mind, anyway, considering how he's tinkered with other positions and got some genuine world class ability in basically every other position, with depth. It's almost glaring, like a football team having a dodgy goalkeeper and the other team knows to shoot on sight. I think every team in the knockouts will go at Daly - from the boot and from linebreaks - and hope to profit from it.

[No 7&1/2]

It's a weird start to this world cup. Missed yesterdays game but there today set you to be really excited....then we have Tonga and the usa. I like big wins but it's a false war for us at the moment.

[kingelderfield]

False war? Be realistic, this is Tonga's biggest game. They'll be desperate to make their mark - and that will more than likely be a large physical mark meaning the possibility of injuries to crucial players is a genuine concern......nowt false about it.

[kingelderfield]

It's great we're indoors today...
Separately I'm really liking our pool, with lots of opportunities to find us out, strenghts and weaknesses wise.

[No 7&1/2]

In the sense we know already that we'll get bonus points and easy easy wins.

[kingelderfield]

I know NZ put a number on them, but final pre tourny game is a million miles from the real deal.
If nothing atleast the first quarter will be quite lively.

[Guest]

Looks like you've got Australia in the QFs barring upsets now.

[No 7&1/2]

Good game. I'm sure jones would be primarily focused on dominating the set pieces should we play either. Cant remember the last time the Aussies got on top of the welsh at scrum time.

[LondonTiger]

Good game. I'm sure jones would be primarily focused on dominating the set pieces should we play either. Cant remember the last time the Aussies got on top of the welsh at scrum time.

Did the Aussies have the edge in the autumn at scrum time? 

Wales scrum has been struggling for over a year now. While it is the easy option to blame the refs for this, against multiple opponents with various refs they have struggled. Much of this may be due to the decision to concentrate on the pack being mobile rather than set piece beasts. It is working so far in the WC.

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