England RWC Thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

Next match pre RWC is England vs Italy 6th September.

22/09/2019 England v Tonga 11:15 GMT
26/09/2019 England v USA 11:45 GMT
05/10/2019 England v Argentina 09:00 GMT
12/10/2019 England v France 09:15 GMT

England Squad:

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester, 86 caps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, 12), Tom Curry (Sale, 11), Ellis Genge (Leicester, 10), Jamie George (Saracens, 37), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27), George Kruis (Saracens, 32), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59), Courtney Lawes (Northampton, 72), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton, 1), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22), Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1), Sam Underhill (Bath, 9), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53), Mark Wilson (Newcastle/Sale, 13).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath, 5), Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56), Piers Francis (Northampton, 5), Willi Heinz (Gloucester, 1), Jonathan Joseph (Bath, 41), Jonny May (Leicester, 45), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath, uncapped), Jack Nowell (Exeter, 33), Henry Slade (Exeter, 22), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester, 33), Anthony Watson (Bath, 34), Ben Youngs (Leicester, 86).

[LondonTiger]

England squad have now flown out with no changes to the 31. Eddie confident he can get his guys fit for crunch time.

They had a slight problem at Tokyo Airport - due to the after affects of the typhoon they were delayed for five hours. They were only due to have a one night layover in Tokyo before heading to the training camp for one more week of fitness preparation.

One thing I found interesting reading that story was that to prepare for Japanese Transport issues, the team deliberately arrived late to Twickenham before the Ireland game to replicate getting caught in Japanes traffic. This meant that they had reduced preparation time before the game.

[No 7&1/2]

They did quite a lot of that during the AIs as well. Deliberately missing training days etc.

[formerly known as Sam]

England squad have now flown out with no changes to the 31. Eddie confident he can get his guys fit for crunch time.

They had a slight problem at Tokyo Airport - due to the after affects of the typhoon they were delayed for five hours. They were only due to have a one night layover in Tokyo before heading to the training camp for one more week of fitness preparation.

One thing I found interesting reading that story was that to prepare for Japanese Transport issues, the team deliberately arrived late to Twickenham before the Ireland game to replicate getting caught in Japanes traffic. This meant that they had reduced preparation time before the game.

That's back to the Sir Clive 1% thinking again isn't it. Nice to hear Eddie is trying to be ahead of the game. I hope he sprung it on the coaches and players at the last minute that there was going to be a session missed or that they were going to be late to the ground. Don't want them to mentally prepare for it as it won't be the same.

[Rugby Fan]

The England team was lucky to be delayed only 5 hours. At it's worst, the airport was packed with 14,000 people who couldn't go anywhere. The planes kept arriving but the main trains and buses were not running, and limited road access meant there weren't a lot of taxis either.

This is the first time in a few years the eye of a typhoon has passed over Tokyo. All in all, we were lucky it did so on a Sunday night, since it was normal for most people to be tucked up at home at that time.

Another one could disrupt tournament but it would just be guesswork at the moment, as there are no signs of another one brewing. Anyone interested can keep an eye on forecasts here:

https://www.jma.go.jp/en/typh/

[Collapse2005]

Apparently England players stand to pocket £250k each if they win the RWC. By contrast the ABs would get about a third that sum for winning.

[Cyril]

and the Fijian players will get half their plane fare home (minus kit fees and a surcharge for half time oranges).

[LondonTiger]

Apparently England players stand to pocket £250k each if they win the RWC. By contrast the ABs would get about a third that sum for winning.

NZRU expect to be paying out, RFU do not.

[Collapse2005]

Id say the RFU would happily pay out but good point

[Cyril]

I’d say it would be worth the 10mil or so for the RFU to fork out in terms of extra revenue gained from being RWC champs again.

[Rugby Fan]

Danny Care in the Telegraph.

Eddie Jones was very clear from day one that this World Cup will be won by the fittest team. Going into the last tournament four years ago, we did a training camp in Denver that I thought was the worst thing ever. Little did I know that training under Eddie would be even more brutal. The sessions are shorter, but a lot sharper. A lot of the time it is just about survival.

He was one of the first coaches to raise the intensity of training beyond what it would be in the game. A lot of time is spent on the analysis of metres per minute, how hard you are working and your explosive sprint distances, which is when you are running flat out. Sometimes you are doing 150-160% explosive sprints over what you would do in a match during a training session, which may only be 30-40 minutes. So when it comes to a game you know you can do it and you know you can recover from it.

Unfortunately that has broken a few players. When you are training at that intensity and you throw in contact then injuries are inevitable. As a player you are always concerned. There were times when you just want to survive. It sounds awful but you just want to get through the session and hope it is not you who picks up the injury.

Eddie was always very clear that we had to push the boundaries. Because England have such a large playing base then it may have been a case that they think well ‘if one breaks then there are another three or four who can come in’. Some countries don’t have that depth. We do at England. At times you got the feeling that the attitude was that if one goes down then there’ll always be another cab off the rank. If you want to make an omelette then you have to break some eggs. At times as a player, you realise you are a pawn. Everyone is dying to get in there because it is such an amazing experience to play for England and you know if you are the one who goes down then there will be someone else who can come in and take your spot.

Eddie’s other big emphasis was on what he calls reform and reload, which is how quickly you get back onto your feet after you make a tackle. It is like a mental trigger that as soon as you have done one action or one impact – no matter whether it was good or bad – you need to be ready to do the next one. Eddie would show clips of New Zealand and how they make a tackle and got back in the game the next phase. We always knew that’s the gold standard and that we had to better than that to beat them.



The goal was to be back on your feet within three seconds. If you manage it that’s a plus, if you don’t then that is a minus. You’ll then get an overall percentage based on what you do in a session. If you do get seven pluses and three minuses then you are on 70 per cent, which is not good enough. Eddie wants everyone over 90 per cent. There will be times in training or in games where people hold you down and he still wants you to fight your way out of that and get back on your feet.  

After every session, your scores in both attack and defence would be put up on a board and on TVs showing where you ranked and whether you were in the top half or the bottom half.

I have been in that bottom half before and it is not a place you want to be. You certainly don’t want to finish last. That’s when you see players training in pink or gold bibs. That shows you are the person who has not worked hard enough off the floor and that you are letting the team down.

It is like muscle memory, if you do that in training then you learn to do that in a Test match where it really counts. That’s why you see people like Maro Itoje racing up off the floor and running that back-against-the-grain line to score against Ireland. That’s also why Eddie is so good at what he does. He is on you every time to do it because there is that one time there might be a defender being slightly lazy and because you have worked harder than him you can break that tackle. That might be the opportunity that wins you the game.

There is a psychological element to pushing that hard because he wants to see who wants it the most. There are times when you are involved in a session and you think this cannot get any worse and somehow it does. He always says to you “we don’t know how far you can go, you don’t know how far you can go so let’s just give it a crack and see.” He tells us, "I guarantee you’ll find a way to get that" and you do. As players you would obviously like it to be easier because you don’t enjoy that pain of getting flogged every day but you completely understand the need for it.



There really is no hiding place or no shortcuts that you can take. When we were in Argentina a couple of years ago, we did urine tests every morning to see how hydrated you were. Eddie said if you are not hydrated enough, you won’t train. We all thought ‘oh yeah, that won’t happen’. One morning Jamal Ford-Robinson turned up quite dehydrated and he was banned from training. He just got told to stay in the hotel. Before, another coach would have let it slide, but Eddie will call you out and say you are letting the team down by not getting yourself as prepared as you should be to train.

I know the boys have worked incredibly hard this summer and you saw how great they looked against Ireland. They are in amazing shape. All that hard work does have a pay-off. I’m sure they were all relieved to get on the plane to Japan, but I think the main feeling will be pride. Unfortunately I never got to experience getting on a plane to go to a World Cup after I got injured in one of the final warm-up games in 2011.

Injury struck again two weeks ago. It all happened pretty quickly. One of the lads fell on my ankle on Wednesday, I went for a scan that afternoon, saw the specialist the next day and decided we would have the operation on the Monday. I have been told it is 6-8 weeks, but I am a pretty quick healer.

Has the England door completely closed? I will be working my tail off to get back fit as soon as possible for Harlequins and if I am back fit and they needed me in the knockout stages then I would be there. I’m an eternal optimist. Look at Stephen Donald playing in the 2011 World Cup final. You never know.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-world-cup/2019/09/10/brutal-battle-survival-eddie-jones-training-session-really/

[yappysnap]

Frak that Danny Care piece sounds harrowing. No wonder the injury rate is so high.

[LondonTiger]

So 29 of the squad are currently deemed fit to play against Tonga - exceptions being Mako and Nowell. Both of these may not be ready till the knock-out stages. We know Eddie sees Mako as a hugely important player for the side, but does this mean that he thinks the same of Nowell?

[formerly known as Sam]

I think it's the case that Nowell adds something that our other wingers can't. Physicality and positional awareness combined. His ability to go looking for work and ability to bounce through contact could be replicated in someone like Roko or Solomona but neither look anywhere near as comfortable at the back fielding the high ball as Nowell does. Similarly if we called up Brown he wouldn't add the spark or the all action contribution Nowell would. Nowell is arguably our most rounded back three player hence why I think Jones is keen to have him available for the crunch games later on.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Agreed I think both Nowell and obviously Mako would be definite starters in the crunch games.
Borthwick confirmed that both Launchers and Slade will be fit for the first game against Tonga.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Interesting observation in the Guardian re Wales lineout when defending near the line against Ireland.
All of their players encroach into the gap at the same time so the ref can’t ping one player so awards a free kick. Ireland chose to have a scrum, however, effectively a driving maul from the lineout has been negated.

[BamBam]

Good to hear Slade is back.

Nowell always seems to be one who hits the ground running after returning from injury, and we have enough back 3 cover anyway for the pool games. I'd be surprised if he managed to overtake May/Daly/Watson in the first choice front 3, but he'd definitely be next man up for me

[No 7&1/2]

Suddenly lots more articles popping up from the guys missing out. Cipriani and brown taking things slightly better.

[lostinwales]

Also standard publicity type article about England visiting a school. Borthwick gave a speech in Japanese which must have gone down well.

[No 7&1/2]

I can't tell if that's a sincere its a good thing to speak to your hosts in their own language or more a hark back to his interviews as england captain.

[formerly known as Sam]

Suddenly lots more articles popping up from the guys missing out. Cipriani and brown taking things slightly better.

Yeah Danny "Jesus" Cipriani sounds like he holds no grudge at all . Mike "still the best fullback in England" Brown as understated as ever as well.

I suppose both are of an age where burning the bridge doesn't really matter to them. Might as well make a few quid selling the story as they are unlikely to be part of any future plans post Eddie.

[yappysnap]

Tbh Brown is very smart and says "still the best under the highball" he knows his strengths...

[Collapse2005]

Mike Tindall really doesnt like Ireland

https://youtu.be/r3QdVChXNTo

From 9:30

[Taylorman]

Cips is kind of the O'Connor of Oz huh? Chose to start growing up in his twenties rather than teens?

[Rugby Fan]

Mike Tindall really doesnt like Ireland

https://youtu.be/r3QdVChXNTo

From 9:30

Tindall has been fairly consistent in his view on how Ireland play, especially on Irish media platforms (he thinks the attritional style will be hard to maintain over a tournament with no rest weekends, and wants more creativity from the backs). He said that before they beat NZ last year, and, after the victory, he was roundly abused (mostly in a good-natured way) but stuck to his guns. After this year's Six Nations, a lot of Irish commentators picked up on Tindall's critique and, if anything, were more negative than he'd been himself.

[yappysnap]

Mike Tindall really doesnt like Ireland

https://youtu.be/r3QdVChXNTo

From 9:30

Tindall has been fairly consistent in his view on how Ireland play, especially on Irish media platforms (he thinks the attritional style will be hard to maintain over a tournament with no rest weekends, and wants more creativity from the backs). He said that before they beat NZ last year, and, after the victory, he was roundly abused (mostly in a good-natured way) but stuck to his guns. After this year's Six Nations, a lot of Irish commentators picked up on Tindall's critique and, if anything, were more negative than he'd been himself.

This.

He does call them boring, which won't go down well. But he's stuck to his guns and believes what he says.

[No 7&1/2]

Didn't realise dan Robson would be available should one of scrum halves pick up an injury. Spencer was the guy in form but robson is a classy player.

[Rugby Fan]

Didn't realise dan Robson would be available should one of scrum halves pick up an injury. Spencer was the guy in form but robson is a classy player.

We don't know the pecking order. He's been told to stay ready but that might also be true of Wigglesworth and Spencer.

[LondonTiger]

Didn't realise dan Robson would be available should one of scrum halves pick up an injury. Spencer was the guy in form but robson is a classy player.

We don't know the pecking order. He's been told to stay ready but that might also be true of Wigglesworth and Spencer.

And Wiggy has the advantage of being in Japan.

[Rugby Fan]

[Taylorman]

Telling stuff.

[Poorfour]

I was quite surprised at the disparity in metres run between England and the All Blacks. Much more movement across the park from England - but probably to lesser effect. That said, Hansen’s selection is a pretty strong indicator that he wants to increase the ABs mobility.

Meanwhile, I agree with 1014 on the accuracy of the kicks being key. England profited against Ireland and France in the 6N when they fielded fullbacks who were inexperienced in the role, but struggled in both attack and defence against Liam Williams, and again in the warm up in Cardiff (albeit with a side made up largely of second choice players).

That said, the point that England have ball carriers across the pitch is well made. The weakest carrier in their strongest XV is probably Kruis, and they could conceivably field a side with five massive crash ball carriers (Mako, George, Sinckler, Billy, Tuilagi) coupled with four with real pace and acceleration (Joseph, Daly, May, Watson).

I’m surprised they didn’t mention that England have two props (assuming Mako is fit to play at some point) with unusually good distribution skills. That’s a potential game changer, because they’re big carriers but can also hold a defence before unleashing the fast guys outside them. Get the timing right and it’s very hard to defend against.

[Guest]

I was quite surprised at the disparity in metres run between England and the All Blacks

I don’t think you can draw that conclusion as there was no scale on the graphs. Those graphs only highlight the ‘relative’ differences between forwards, backs and reserves.

[Taylorman]

I was quite surprised at the disparity in metres run between England and the All Blacks

I don’t think you can draw that conclusion as there was no scale on the graphs. Those graphs only highlight the ‘relative’ differences between forwards, backs and reserves.

Yes we’ll given backs meters usually contain very easy meters it needs the number of carries per player, and he did point out that the AB backs meters were...’believe me, very high meters’. so for England there’s evidence they don’t let the ball away from their forwards extensively, but generally they’re fairly similar.

[Poorfour]

I was quite surprised at the disparity in metres run between England and the All Blacks

I don’t think you can draw that conclusion as there was no scale on the graphs. Those graphs only highlight the ‘relative’ differences between forwards, backs and reserves.

Looking at the most recent games, the ABs ran 443 metres as a team vs SA; England ran 458m vs Ireland. So pretty comparable in total, but England are making a significantly bigger chunk of those through the forwards.

Perhaps I phrased it badly, but the point I was trying to make was that the patterns are very different. As Taylorman says, metres run by backs are often easier metres than those by forwards. Forward metres are mostly made a lot closer to the gain line; as defences get tighter, those yards are disproportionately valuable. Hansen clearly wants to change something about the AB’s forward play with his selections.

[Taylorman]

And his back selection. Mo’unga and Barrett as dual playmakers will be increasingly apparent as the tournament evolves for the ABs, and he’s only got SBW who has any bulk at all in the midfield. ALB and Crotty rely a lot on speed and smarts, though Goodhue is solid enough.

The forwards kinda get there through either form/ injury ...Laulala for franks, or the lack of Kaino level 6’s. But agree I think he’s counting big time on making mobility the biggest point of difference. There’s some real speed in there now.

[Rugby Fan]

And his back selection. Mo’unga and Barrett as dual playmakers will be increasingly apparent as the tournament evolves for the ABs...

I think that does look a dangerous pairing. Would you say an injury to one of them would now be more disruptive to NZ than an injury to Retallick? Is there anyone else who could be a playmaker alongside either Mo’unga or Barrett, or would you revert to what you were doing before, with Ben Smth starting at full back?

Within the England squad, we can use Slade and, to some extent, Francis. Although we don't really know who Jones would call up should Ford or Farrell go down, Smith and Cipriani were in the training camp. None of those options are ideal, but I suspect most England supporters would see the loss of Bily Vunipola as a more serious probem. Especially if his brother wasn't fully fit.

[majesticimperialman]

Any news on the England injured players. Nowell, Mako. etc.

[Taylorman]

And his back selection. Mo’unga and Barrett as dual playmakers will be increasingly apparent as the tournament evolves for the ABs...

I think that does look a dangerous pairing. Would you say an injury to one of them would now be more disruptive to NZ than an injury to Retallick? Is there anyone else who could be a playmaker alongside either Mo’unga or Barrett, or would you revert to what you were doing before, with Ben Smth starting at full back?

Within the England squad, we can use Slade and, to some extent, Francis. Although we don't really know who Jones would call up should Ford or Farrell go down, Smith and Cipriani were in the training camp. None of those options are ideal, but I suspect most England supporters would see the loss of Bily Vunipola as a more serious probem. Especially if his brother wasn't fully fit.

If Barrett goes out that’s worst case scenario for me. Our key playmaker that makes things happen and will be key to Hansen’s gameplay. With the experience and now leadership he’s gained since 2015 if Barrett tournament is a success they’ll probably win. Perenara could back up 10, but a full injury to Barrett or Mo’unga would see Josh Ioane over

Retallick is a shade past his best and the injury and return didn’t help. He’ll be fit though and ‘knock free’ after a lay-off. Obviously we need him firing but a lot of our bets are placed on mobility and Barrett’s key to that. Teams kicking to him had better kick we’ll or he’ll find a way to add interest to poor ones.

[LondonTiger]

Any news on the England injured players. Nowell, Mako. etc.

All but those two currently fit enough to face Tonga. Those two may miss all pool games.

[maestegmafia]

Any news on the England injured players. Nowell, Mako. etc.

All but those two currently fit enough to face Tonga. Those two may miss all pool games.

In the independent

“Defence coach John Mitchell confirmed that both Wilson and Cokanasiga will be assessed later in the week, though they will likely have to prove their fitness by Thursday's main training day if they are to feature in selection plans for the opening fixture in Sapporo.”

[LondonTiger]

Yeah they apparently got injured in the first Japanese training session.

[majesticimperialman]

Eddie sure is tough on the players by the sound of it.

[yappysnap]

Alwayd more cabs in yhe rank is his thinking I guess.

I wonder how many of our players go into Tests at 70/80% match fitness because of this training, how many are carrying knocks or niggles they dont want to mention that handicap their performance?

[Taylorman]

“Defence coach John Mitchell confirmed that both Wilson and Cokanasiga will be assessed later in the week, though they will likely have to prove their fitness by Thursday's main training day if they are to feature in selection plans for the opening fixture in Sapporo.”

Sounds like coded attack plans on the southern peninsula at dawn, 0500hrs ...

[Poorfour]

Alwayd more cabs in yhe rank is his thinking I guess.

I wonder how many of our players go into Tests at 70/80% match fitness because of this training, how many are carrying knocks or niggles they dont want to mention that handicap their performance?

Based on comments from former players, not many. Each player is tracked individually and with a brutally simple objective metric: whether they are up and back in the line within 3 seconds. If you're carrying something that affects your ability to get up and back into the line, Eddie will notice that and it will be marked down as one of his famous "minuses" on the squad scoresheet. There are some injuries that wouldn't affect that metric, but not many.

He's been pretty willing in the past to put inexperienced players out there rather than risk someone who's carrying a knock. What's going to be interesting, though, is how he copes with the RWC, where you can't chop and change your squad from week to week - by the latter end of the tournament, most teams will have a choice between plating someone who's not fully fit (though I doubt it would be as low as 70/80%) or replacing players late in the day. But then he's also one of the most experienced coaches at the tournament, especially when it comes to winning big games and playing in the latter stages, so presumably he has a plan.

[LondonTiger]

IEWT

[No 7&1/2]

Jones had strongly suggested he would pick England’s first-choice side against the Pacific Islanders a week today as a statement of intent but he has since had a change of heart, stating that due to the likelihood of injuries and potential suspensions “you never have your best team any
He is already without Mako Vunipola – a certainty in England’s strongest XV – and Jack Nowell due to injury for the first two matches and Jones revealed that Joe Cokanasiga and Mark Wilson need a “mini pre-season” before the start of next week. But whereas during the Six Nations Jones made minor tweaks to his first-choice side, he has adopted a more open strategy since reading Pep Confidential, a book about Guardiola’s first season in charge of Bayern Munich.

“They played 60-odd games and for one week he had his full squad available,” said Jones. “That’s the reality of top-level physical sports now. I have a much more open approach to selection because of that and it has evolved quite quickly in the last three or four months.

“It’s exacerbated by the fact that the game has become physically more rigorous and the issues involved with the game means that players will likely be ruled out of games.”

There was this bit on the guardian from jones.

[No 7&1/2]

Also a bit around Farrells tackling for those wanting to rage.

[SecretFly]

I think a lot of the training field talk/philosophies/secret baby oil uses.... ....I think a lot of that stuff is now just psychology - an attempt to make the opposition blink instinctively, even despite their better knowledge.

Without a shadow of a doubt, Eddie Jones will have players on the field with injury niggles, aches and pains, perhaps some of them suppressed with appropriate pain killer injections.  But he'll have his players playing with those niggles - all teams will, because your best players are your best players and if they can handle 60 minutes and go through degrees of pain barrier stuff, then it's a WC and you use them.  You'll manage them as best you can, but you'll use them when you think it's necessary.
But one of the psychological little tricks is that you'll pretend the cogs in the wheel are all 100% certified fully operational cyborgs - and that they wouldn't be playing if there was any doubt.

Psychology wars.

But it is true that the Irish team secretly trained in a purpose built underground sauna practice pitch, in arctic gear, five hours at a time, twice a day.  That story was true.

[LondonTiger]

But it is true that the Irish team secretly trained in a purpose built underground sauna practice pitch, in arctic gear, five hours at a time, twice a day.  That story was true.

Only because they kept forgetting to leave someone outside to open the door and let them out.

[Sponsored content]