England RWC Thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

Next match pre RWC is England vs Italy 6th September.

22/09/2019 England v Tonga 11:15 GMT
26/09/2019 England v USA 11:45 GMT
05/10/2019 England v Argentina 09:00 GMT
12/10/2019 England v France 09:15 GMT

England Squad:

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester, 86 caps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, 12), Tom Curry (Sale, 11), Ellis Genge (Leicester, 10), Jamie George (Saracens, 37), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27), George Kruis (Saracens, 32), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59), Courtney Lawes (Northampton, 72), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton, 1), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22), Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1), Sam Underhill (Bath, 9), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53), Mark Wilson (Newcastle/Sale, 13).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath, 5), Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56), Piers Francis (Northampton, 5), Willi Heinz (Gloucester, 1), Jonathan Joseph (Bath, 41), Jonny May (Leicester, 45), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath, uncapped), Jack Nowell (Exeter, 33), Henry Slade (Exeter, 22), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester, 33), Anthony Watson (Bath, 34), Ben Youngs (Leicester, 86).

[LondonTiger]

Not sure if I said this earlier. I thought Lawes was fantastic, my MotM. He destroyed Italy's line-out, tackled with ferocity and carried to good purpose.

[formerly known as Sam]

I just feel that in Tests we lose too much from Watson's attacking game when he moves to FB. I think there is negligible difference between his defence and Dalys. 

My issue with Cokanasiga is that right now he feels one dimensional. Italy handled him with ease it seemed. However perhaps with Manu also there defences cannot double up on both.

Hard to double up on both, as Ireland proved and so did Italy in the 6N, it also lightens the load on the pair of them. If we want to crash it up we don't have to turn to the same bloke every time.

Watson just looks more comfortable under the high ball to me. Neither him nor Daly are particularly good tacklers. I don't think either are particularly great fullbacks, both are better wingers.

[No 7&1/2]

I find it hard to tell much from yesterday tbh. Looked like a literal training ground session. Never in danger.running through some plans including the obviously pre planned subs to disrupt fluency. Defence was good. Midfield was meh to start with. Personally I dont like Francis. Think someone like devoto would have been angry recently in squads with more potential. Similarly mcconnachie seems ok but not great. Jones hasn't often been wrong though so these guys will be in there for a reason I'm not seeing. Maybe the most obvious comparison to Farrell and nowell?

[LondonTiger]

I really do not see what Eddie likes about Francis tha Lozowski does not do better. But Eddie watches a lot more rugby than me and sees the guys close up in training.

[majesticimperialman]

After watching the game today Watson at full back. Thought he had a good game to be honest. he was very good under the high ball. 

But made me think of Mike Brown a proper full back, he (Brown) is very good under the high ball too. Watson is more of a winger. 

Daily is more of a centre. 

I do hope this experimenting pays off for England.

[formerly known as Sam]

I really do not see what Eddie likes about Francis tha Lozowski does not do better. But Eddie watches a lot more rugby than me and sees the guys close up in training.

With Ford, Farrell and Slade in the squad I don't really see the need for Francis. Obviously now Slade is injured he is more useful but a more direct running centre as back up for Manu would have been more handy. I'm a big fan of Johnny Williams at Falcons. If he wanted a second playmaker who is happy at centre then Devoto and Lozowski would have been better options particularly because Lozowski is rapid enough to play wing and has done for Sarries.

Then again we could have done the logical thing sometime in the last couple of years and given Sam James a chance. I mean who doesn't want a unit of a centre that regularly features towards the top of the list for offloads each season. Add in that he regularly steps in at 10 and 15 for Sale and is solid in defence. Baffles me that he hasn't got multiple caps by now. I'd take Sam James over Francis every day of the week and twice for a RWC squad.

[LondonTiger]

After watching the game today Watson at full back. Thought he had a good game to be honest. he was very good under the high ball. 

I can only remember Watson having to collect one proper high ball and he knocked it on.

[majesticimperialman]

Just dawned on me, why was England playing in red and not their normal white  strip?

[carpet baboon]

Just dawned on me, why was England playing in red and not their normal white  strip?

To help sell more kit I would imagine.

[LondonTiger]

Just dawned on me, why was England playing in red and not their normal white  strip?

To help sell more kit I would imagine.

Yup. Will have been contractual, got to wear the change kit at least once before RWC to encourage sales.

[carpet baboon]

Just dawned on me, why was England playing in red and not their normal white  strip?

To help sell more kit I would imagine.

Yup. Will have been contractual, got to wear the change kit at least once before RWC to encourage sales.

I'm pretty sure every team has played at least one game in the alternative WC kit. Got to make that bonus payment money somehow

[SecretFly]

I don't like this changed kit stuff when unecessary (clashes with opposition kit).  

For the money and the contracts?  Well yes, biz is biz.

But I truly think that players feel less (insert Nation's name) Internationals when they put on these unfamiliar strips. And I do think it can affect intensity and concentration in scientifically quantifiable amounts.

...... so now I need an awesomely big Grant to initiate my indepth research to prove it.  Say 3Mil as a starting number to cover expenses and such????

[mikey_dragon]

After watching the game today Watson at full back. Thought he had a good game to be honest. he was very good under the high ball. 

I can only remember Watson having to collect one proper high ball and he knocked it on.

Johnny Wilkinson kicked well too

[Cyril]

May has to be one of the best in the business at claiming high balls. Obviously, from an England point of view, he’s best suited on the wing, but he could certainly step in at full back if necessary. He’s played there plenty of times in club rugby and often covers the back line with his speed. Some of his takes on Friday were top-drawer.

[LondonTiger]

May has to be one of the best in the business at claiming high balls. Obviously, from an England point of view, he’s best suited on the wing, but he could certainly step in at full back if necessary. He’s played there plenty of times in club rugby and often covers the back line with his speed. Some of his takes on Friday were top-drawer.

Chasing our kicks though. Successfully fielding high balls from the opposition, near to the line and under pressure is a different matter. 

In these Isles, Kearney and Brown are the best at this facet of the game. However it is only one element.

[robbo277]

Fly

If were talking about world cup preparation and the 1%s and less, surely playing a game in your change kit is preferably to pulling it out for the first time in a world cup quarter-final? E.g. Ireland vs South Africa?

Don't want to have a situation like the famous United grey kit in a World Cup knockout where the players cant see each other.

It is shamelessly about the money. But if you need a change strip it probably is best to give yourself a run in it beforehand if possible?

[Cyril]

Replying to LondonTiger

True, but May is an all-round player these days. I wouldn’t have any doubts with him playing there. It might be a different area, but I would say running onto a ball and attacking it (and getting possession) is more difficult. Taking it as a defender is more about positioning and mentally challenging. May is much more rounded in this area and pretty unflappable. It’s probably too late now, but May could have been an outstanding full back. Especially as we’re stocked with wingers.

[SecretFly]

Fly

If were talking about world cup preparation and the 1%s and less, surely playing a game in your change kit is preferably to pulling it out for the first time in a world cup quarter-final? E.g. Ireland vs South Africa?

Don't want to have a situation like the famous United grey kit in a World Cup knockout where the players cant see each other.

It is shamelessly about the money. But if you need a change strip it probably is best to give yourself a run in it beforehand if possible?

Don't kill off me big grant!!!!

[LondonTiger]

You can have your 3mil. $Zim.

[No 7&1/2]

The warm ups have been used by jones as actual warm ups and I have a feeling that that will continue until we meet france. It'll be a bit of a slow start for us in this world cup.

[hugehandoff]

OK.....realistic summary of England under Jones. We have potential to do well in the RWC but there are too many unknowns at this stage. We are far too far from being a settled side with settled combinations and we have shown a worrying lack of leadership and a plan B when things are not going our way.

But In Eddie's defence I will say that so many key players have suffered with injuries that all best laid plans lie untested. Curry, Underhill and Billy all have been unavailable for so much of recent history. Add in Manu and the whole dynamic of the midfield changes.

If all these great players are available then it will take a great side to beat England, which sadly will be possible as we just have not been able to establish the partnerships and experience necessary to win a RWC. The injuries have certainly undermined Eddie's best laid plans and led to far too many players being used, but at full strength we will certainly go well. Shame but I don't see us lighting up a cigar for this one.

[No 7&1/2]

Can I just ask then who has shown leadership worthy of a world cup win? Which other teams have shown real differences in their plan a and b?

[Poorfour]

To be fair to the All Blacks, England and Ireland took them through plans a, b, c and d in the autumn.

My worry is that England’s “finishers” are no longer changing the game. If our blitzkrieg starts to the game don’t build a substantial lead, we haven’t shown the variation in the game to exploit to open endgame.

All of which said, warm ups are phony war stuff. Eddie will have things he hasn’t shown, and we probably won’t know how good they are until at least the Argentina game.

[SecretFly]

How good do you wanna get???

The truth though is that as time creeps on in the World Cup, games go from loose runnng/steamrolling pomp to gritty attritional extremely cautious stuff.  Nerves kick in and no matter how well drilled and coached, safety features begin popping into the games as the bigger outfits begin to meet each other.

So (hopefully) the barnstorming exploits of teams like ABs and England get increasingly reeled in as tension mounts (for the sake of other competitors ).  - and back to setpiece slowish slog to decide later round winners.

[hugehandoff]

Can I just ask then who has shown leadership worthy of a world cup win? Which other teams have shown real differences in their plan a and b?

I am talking about England and my point is perfectly valid as you well know. As for other sides we have seen Wales survive when under pressure especially when England dominated in the 1st half in the 6Ns game. Your point is that no other country is miles ahead as an outstanding candidate and I would agree that this RWC is probably the closest ever between a number of nations. But when the chips are down I would have loved it if this England side had the ability to think their way out of trouble. Maybe their power game with everyone fit will be enough?

[No 7&1/2]

I completely accept that handoff and my point is that sometimes we expect there to always be a way out and anflicknof the switch and a win. There are instances where we have done that. Most obvious is the Scotland game recently as we switched back on to draw last minute.
My point is that we do have good leadership we probably have a more obvious plan b than anyone else.
Wales were being held up as that example of adaptability and leadership through jones. What happened against england. What happened against ireland. They looked rudderless. I'm not saying you're wrong but I think there is a temptation to go a little ott.

[hugehandoff]

Re OTT 7.5.....I hope so! Our draw is super tough with either Aus or Wales in the 1/4 finals and NZ or SA in the semis and we will no doubt be under the serious cosh at times. Vital that we stay cool.....TCUP etc....and that Sinckler and Itoje don't get into trouble and that we can adapt our approach. Good point re Scotland and Ford salvaging a draw and a benefit of having so many injuries is that we have had to try many players and combinations. Switching from Ford, Farrell & Manu to Farrell, Manu & Slade (or vice versa) poses very different questions. But the Scotland game is a good example of England coming apart! We should never have blown a 6 try lead. Simple stuff to stop kicking the ball away and just keep possession, aka Martin Johnson, and grind the 2nd half out towards a win.

[LondonTiger]

Just looking at the AIs:

Game 1 - We took an early lead, but then Wales came back at us. We regrouped on the pitch, sorted some line-out issues,  put Wales under pressure and capitalised with the wonky throw by Owens and poor attempt to catch by AWJ. Pulled away in the second half.

Game 2 - Narrow defeat away from home. We were arguably a little one dimensional in attack and despite creating a lot more opportunities last ditch welsh tackling kept us at bay. Slightly disappointing that the very strong bench did not have too much impact.

Game 3 - It is easy to forget that Ireland twice took the lead, in the 10th and 26th minutes. 

Game 4 - Slow start but we warmed up.


Now warm up games are very much a phoney war but there have been promising signs. While we are some way from being the finished article, and I do not believe we will win the WC, we are entering this campaign in a pretty strong place. There is lots of talk about England not knowing their combinations. I agree that us fans may not know - but pretty sure Eddie does. The biggest question mark in his head may be the 10-12-13 combo. At full strength Farrell will fill two of those spots. At the end of last season it would have been assumed that Slade would be the 3rd member - has his unavailability and the strong showing of the Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo changed things?

Main reason I feel we are in a strong place is that we actually have a variety of styles and players to deliver that. At prop, even excluding Mako, there is the set piece nous of Marler and Cole vs the power of Genge and Sinckler. Two genuine international pairings at second row. Options in teh back row, including selecting a lock at 6 as SA do. (Admittedly things look much worse if Billy gets injured).

In the backs we have a mix of pace, power and guile.

As 7.5 says - the first two World Cup games will continue to be preparation. With 4 days between we will see mix and match combos. The team have now flown to Japan and will spend a week of hot weather training to finish the fitness element of their preparation. That we have played so well while in "fitness building mode" is promising. Hopefully we can taper well.

[lostinwales]

No question that Eddie really knows how to get a team ready for a RWC. He's had plenty of practice.

That in itself is not enough, but it is all we can ask of him at this point.

[LondonTiger]

No question that Eddie really knows how to get a team ready for a RWC. He's had plenty of practice.

That in itself is not enough, but it is all we can ask of him at this point.

We shall see shortly I guess. I do feel we have the ability to go a long way in this tournament, but also feel we have the ability to implode.

[BamBam]

How Eddie handles the 4 day turnaround between the first two games is going to be crucial, I hope he sees the USA game as the opportunity to rest a few key players, with all due respect I think we can beat them comfortably with our 2nd choice XV, and with enough of a margin to make sure that we aren't damaging our points difference if the group comes down to that

My view is that the first choice team should play Tonga, then the team for USA should be made up of the bench vs Tonga and the 8 players not in the 23, with the first choice players ready to come off the bench

I know many feel Billy gets better with game time, but I'd really rather wrap the likes of him, Farrell and Manu in cotton wool for a game with the view that they're going to have to play every game from then on

[LondonTiger]

How Eddie handles the 4 day turnaround between the first two games is going to be crucial, I hope he sees the USA game as the opportunity to rest a few key players, with all due respect I think we can beat them comfortably with our 2nd choice XV, and with enough of a margin to make sure that we aren't damaging our points difference if the group comes down to that

My view is that the first choice team should play Tonga, then the team for USA should be made up of the bench vs Tonga and the 8 players not in the 23, with the first choice players ready to come off the bench

I know many feel Billy gets better with game time, but I'd really rather wrap the likes of him, Farrell and Manu in cotton wool for a game with the view that they're going to have to play every game from then on

Based on what I have been reading, with Eddie intimating that these first two fixtures are effectively part of the "warm ups", there are suggestions that we will see two mix and match lineups and we will not get to see the full strength side all together until Argentina.

It should also be remembered that currently we have players who have been deemed as not fit for Tonga/US

[hugehandoff]

London Tiger......I really hope he plays the Gun XV against Tonga and then rests as many as possible against USA to be fully prepared for Argentina. Why ask some of our key players to play twice in just a few days, increasing the risk of injury, unnecessarily? Use our wider squad which should be more than capable of taking care of USA.

[SecretFly]

What if:

Day of Tonga game - Typhoon - game abandoned - draw

Could be a very weird WC if weather interrupts play.  Sounds like cricket but supposedly big implications if heavy storms hit.

Changes mucho thoughts then on who meets USA.

I'm only using England as an example.  But if even only one fancied team has to settle for an imposed draw against a supposed minnow side.... the protests might hit the fan if other competitors manage to evade cancellations of their intended cricket score games.

[carpet baboon]

What if:

Day of Tonga game - Typhoon - game abandoned - draw

Could be a very weird WC if weather interrupts play.  Sounds like cricket but supposedly big implications if heavy storms hit.

Changes mucho thoughts then on who meets USA.

I'm only using England as an example.  But if even only one fancied team has to settle for an imposed draw against a supposed minnow side.... the protests might hit the fan if other competitors manage to evade cancellations of their intended cricket score games.

Could cause some serious issues for the "big" teams, but as far as I'm aware that has always been the case for pool matches that cannot be played due to weather in world cups

[SecretFly]

I know but it appears the likelihood of weather that might be vicious enough to call off a game is greater in Japan at this time of year than perhaps other more traditional hosting nations.

Oh it's only me thinking out loud.  Worst case scenario.  But it would certainly make coaches work for their money in team selections for subsequent games.

[LondonTiger]

London Tiger......I really hope he plays the Gun XV against Tonga and then rests as many as possible against USA to be fully prepared for Argentina. Why ask some of our key players to play twice in just a few days, increasing the risk of injury, unnecessarily? Use our wider squad which should be more than capable of taking care of USA.

I understand that all would feature in the first two games - but with a gap of 9 days between US and Argentina he does not feel the need to give the first choice any extra rest. So those first two games are likely to be mix and match in terms of first and second choice.

[LondonTiger]

What if:

Day of Tonga game - Typhoon - game abandoned - draw

Could be a very weird WC if weather interrupts play.  Sounds like cricket but supposedly big implications if heavy storms hit.

Changes mucho thoughts then on who meets USA.

I'm only using England as an example.  But if even only one fancied team has to settle for an imposed draw against a supposed minnow side.... the protests might hit the fan if other competitors manage to evade cancellations of their intended cricket score games.

Could cause some serious issues for the "big" teams, but as far as I'm aware that has always been the case for pool matches that cannot be played due to weather in world cups

 I think our first two matches are in indoor stadia.

[Poorfour]

I am fully expecting a lot of player rotation in the pool stages, depending a bit on whether France beat Argentina first up.

Four day turnaround means we will have to use as many of the 31 as are fit over the first two games. Then I think Eddie will want to manage the gametime of his key players over the last two pool games, because winning 5 tier 1 games in 5 weeks is more than anyone has ever done.

Depending a bit on the form France and Argentina are showing, I think he may take a chance on resting or benching some of the big guns for one or other game.

[carpet baboon]

What if:

Day of Tonga game - Typhoon - game abandoned - draw

Could be a very weird WC if weather interrupts play.  Sounds like cricket but supposedly big implications if heavy storms hit.

Changes mucho thoughts then on who meets USA.

I'm only using England as an example.  But if even only one fancied team has to settle for an imposed draw against a supposed minnow side.... the protests might hit the fan if other competitors manage to evade cancellations of their intended cricket score games.

Could cause some serious issues for the "big" teams, but as far as I'm aware that has always been the case for pool matches that cannot be played due to weather in world cups

 I think our first two matches are in indoor stadia.

But would they call it off for safety reasons? To dangerous for people to get to stadium?

[BamBam]

Its possible, but would likely mean that many other games would suffer the same fate. Imagine the implications of draws in the NZ-SA or Scotland-Ireland games, would just be a case of who can put the most points on the minnows would top groups

[robbo277]

What if:

Day of Tonga game - Typhoon - game abandoned - draw

Could be a very weird WC if weather interrupts play.  Sounds like cricket but supposedly big implications if heavy storms hit.

Changes mucho thoughts then on who meets USA.

I'm only using England as an example.  But if even only one fancied team has to settle for an imposed draw against a supposed minnow side.... the protests might hit the fan if other competitors manage to evade cancellations of their intended cricket score games.

If England vs Tonga is washed out, every other game is played, there are no draws, USA lose every one and you ignore bonus points.

France Pld 3 Pts 12
Arg Pld 3 Pts 8
Tonga Pld 3 Pts 6
England Pld 1 Pts 6
USA Pld 4 Pts 0

If England lose to the loser of France vs Argentina they're out regardless. If they beat the loser of France vs Argentina they'll qualify regardless. Bonus points could come into it but if every country gets one against USA then there's no net change. If the loser of France vs Argentina gets a LBP in that game and a TBP against Tonga then England could need a further bonus point.

If England got washed out against Tonga first up and didn't qualify I wouldn't really be looking to blame that result. There's still enough rugby to get us qualified.

[robbo277]

Its possible, but would likely mean that many other games would suffer the same fate. Imagine the implications of draws in the NZ-SA or Scotland-Ireland games, would just be a case of who can put the most points on the minnows would top groups

1st vs 2nd isn't as big a fall as 2nd vs 3rd though. If you lost the chance to top the group because of the weather and still got to the QFs, it's all still in your hand. It's whether you lose an easy 3 points (5 down to 2) and miss out on qualification altogether that will be a bigger worry.

[Poorfour]

Yeah, but the "no score draw" approach places undue pressure on teams where there's a real mismatch for no good reason. I'd have preferred something where points were at least allocated based on the ranking algorithm. Too late now, though.

[robbo277]

South Africa lost to the fourth seed (not even scoreless draw) and still topped their pool. You can bury one bad result, even if that's because of weather and not your own performance.

It wouldn't be ideal for anyone to lose the chance to pile some points against a minnow for the weather, but if it intervenes then there's still enough chance to (a) qualify and (b) top your pool.

[propdavid_london]

Random question - are there bonus points in the WC. 4 try bonus and a loosing bonus for being within 7pts?

[LondonTiger]

Random question - are there bonus points in the WC.  4 try bonus and a loosing bonus for being within 7pts?

 I believe so - or at least the table format I downloaded had space for Bonus Points.

[Poorfour]

Random question - are there bonus points in the WC.  4 try bonus and a loosing bonus for being within 7pts?

Yes. There are now bonus points in all major rugby tournaments. For a long time the 6 Nations was the only holdout, but they moved over once they'd agreed the additional Grand Slam bonus to ensure that a "5 match winner with no bonus points" would always end ahead of a "4 match winner with 5 bonus points".

[Rugby Fan]

Two Cents Rugby has a short video on the format (bonus poinst etc)

[robbo277]

England squad have now flown out with no changes to the 31. Eddie confident he can get his guys fit for crunch time.

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