Wales vs France - Round 3 “Redemption”

Getting your backside kicked and realising your faults can make you a far better and stronger team. Should you go on for a lengthy period without teams finding the flaws in your game you are likely to get a big surprise one day when said period ends..!

Ireland played really well last Saturday, they found flaws in wales defence and attack. I think we all knew our set piece hasn’t been world class but that has been the case for a long time.

Next we face the French, now one of only two teams who can claim a grandslam should their winning run continue and they look pretty handy. They neither look like the french teams of old, Sella, Penaud, Blanco and St Andre nor do they look like the recent sides of Vahmina, Basteraud and an endless stream of different flyhalfs.

Both teams are new to their coaches, both teams are looking to push on from their past and polish their game. France look better than this time last year, Wales maybe not so much...!

Sure going to be a great game.

Wales:

15. Leigh Halfpenny (87 Caps)
14. George North (93 Caps)
13. Nick Tompkins (2 Caps)
12. Hadleigh Parkes (27 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (23 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (81 Caps)
9. Gareth Davies (52 Caps)

1. Wyn Jones (24 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (75 Caps)
3. Dillon Lewis (24 Caps)
4. Jake Ball (44 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (136 Caps)
6. Ross Moriarty (43 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (74 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (74 Caps)

Replacements:
16. Ryan Elias (11 Caps)
17. Rob Evans (37 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (8 Caps)
19. Will Rowlands (Uncapped)
20. Aaron Wainwright (20 Caps)
21. Tomos Williams (18 Caps)
22. Jarrod Evans (5 Caps)
23. Johnny McNicholl (2 Caps)


France

15. Anthony Bouthier (Montpellier)
14. Teddy Thomas (Racing 92)
13. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing 92)
12. Arthur Vincent (Montpellier)
11. Gaël Fickou (Stade Français)
10. Romain Ntamack (Toulouse)
9. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse)

1. Cyril Baille (Toulouse)
2. Julien Marchand (Toulouse)
3. Mohamed Haouas (Montpellier)
4. Bernard Le Roux (Racing 92)
5. Paul Willemse (Montpellier)
6. François Cros (Toulouse)
7. Charles Ollivon (Toulon) (c)
8. Grégory Alldritt (La Rochelle)

Replacements:
16. Camille Chat (Racing 92)
17. Jean-Baptiste Gros (Toulon)
18. Demba Bamba (Lyon)
19. Romain Taofifenua (Toulon)
20. Dylan Cretin (Lyon)
21. Baptiste Serin (Toulon)
22. Matthieu Jalibert (Bordeaux-Bègles)
23. Thomas Ramos (Toulouse)

Two words

Shaun Edwards

tigertattie wrote:Two words

Shaun Edwards

Could be part of it...! Watertight one week four tries the next..!

maestegmafia wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Two words

Shaun Edwards

Could be part of it...! Watertight one week four tries the next..!

Its not even so much how much he can improve the French defence, but he knows the Welsh boys inside and out. He'll know how to stop them and probably how to get passed them!

Wales should win at a trot, if not a canter. France have been flattered by playing both matches at home so far.

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should win at a trot, if not a canter. France have been flattered by playing both matches at home so far.

Or you could argue that with 2 wins their confidence will be far higher than had the fixtures been in a different order.

They look far more resilient than they have done in previous years, but will still be good to see what happens if/ when we apply big pressure to them.

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should win at a trot, if not a canter. France have been flattered by playing both matches at home so far.

England the only team to win away from home so far. Could be there Year if the win all their home games

France look like a team that will do what it takes to get the win. They were 24-0 up against England. They let Italy get back in to the game then finished them off. There is a lot more to come from France but I think Ireland are best placed to win simply because of the style of rugby they play. England are still too hit and miss and Wales and France might fancy a bonus point against Scotland for instance so there are still 4 teams in with a chance for me but Ireland and France the hot favourites with Ireland on top due to past winning ability over French potential and talent.

Englishman in peace here. Being honest, if France travel well and have listened to Edwards' doubtless unhappiness with letting in 3 tries against Italy, then Wales might have their hands full. It's a big if, but if their previous match in the RWC is anything to go on, France have the ability, are on a roll and will now have had the stupid coached out of them. (No Vaahaamahina)

That said, Cardiff is a VERY difficult place for a visiting team to win.

Do Wales continue with Tompkins at 13, or do they use North in the centre? I'm thinking that the latter isn't ideal, as he's a FAR better winger than he is a centre; plus it might not do Tompkins' confidence much good if he's immediately dropped for a winger out of position.

Yeah but French players are allegedly super sensitive to overbearing bollixes chewing on their ovals about too many mistakes.  If Edwards overdoes the hairdryer he just might be found naked in Paris somewhere, tied to a post with tar and feathers on him.

Gotta be careful.  These French boys ain't timid, willing, obedient Welsh boys here - they got short fuses for being told what to do too often.  They might down tools completely if they are sulking bad enough.

Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here. Being honest, if France travel well and have listened to Edwards' doubtless unhappiness with letting in 3 tries against Italy, then Wales might have their hands full. It's a big if, but if their previous match in the RWC is anything to go on, France have the ability, are on a roll and will now have had the stupid coached out of them. (No Vaahaamahina)

That said, Cardiff is a VERY difficult place for a visiting team to win.

Do Wales continue with Tompkins at 13, or do they use North in the centre? I'm thinking that the latter isn't ideal, as he's a FAR better winger than he is a centre; plus it might not do Tompkins' confidence much good if he's immediately dropped for a winger out of position.

Owen Watkins is fit again so he is most likely 13

England in the driving seat now after the first two rounds. France will slip up at least once and England should be a couple of scores better than Ireland and Wales at home.

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should win at a trot, if not a canter. France have been flattered by playing both matches at home so far.

France have looked very erm well French. A mixture of the sublime and the ridiculous. They look like they can both score and concede on any given play. If Edwards keeps tightening that defence up and hammers home the importance of not running the ball from their own 22 (three good kickers on the park, play the percentages!) then they'll be a real handful.

If this was Vs Gatland's Wales I'd put my mortgage on Wales grinding France down but the new Wales is still being worked on. The attacking game hasn't quite clicked and the defence hasn't been the normal brick wall. If it clicks for Wales they could score a hat full but the new more expansive system will take a while to bed in. The number of attempted offloads Vs Ireland must have been about the same as for the whole of last year's tournament.

maestegmafia wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here. Being honest, if France travel well and have listened to Edwards' doubtless unhappiness with letting in 3 tries against Italy, then Wales might have their hands full. It's a big if, but if their previous match in the RWC is anything to go on, France have the ability, are on a roll and will now have had the stupid coached out of them. (No Vaahaamahina)

That said, Cardiff is a VERY difficult place for a visiting team to win.

Do Wales continue with Tompkins at 13, or do they use North in the centre? I'm thinking that the latter isn't ideal, as he's a FAR better winger than he is a centre; plus it might not do Tompkins' confidence much good if he's immediately dropped for a winger out of position.

Owen Watkins is fit again so he is most likely 13

I find Owen Watkin a bit of an underwhelming prospect at 13, unfortunately. He’s had many games for Wales now but I struggle to think of a standout moment. Tompkins had more good moments against Italy than I can remember Watkin having in his 20 caps. OK Tompkins was not so good against Ireland but then collectively a lot of the team did not play well. I’d persevere with Tompkins for now. We need to develop depth in that position and you can’t do that unless you play players there.

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here. Being honest, if France travel well and have listened to Edwards' doubtless unhappiness with letting in 3 tries against Italy, then Wales might have their hands full. It's a big if, but if their previous match in the RWC is anything to go on, France have the ability, are on a roll and will now have had the stupid coached out of them. (No Vaahaamahina)

That said, Cardiff is a VERY difficult place for a visiting team to win.

Do Wales continue with Tompkins at 13, or do they use North in the centre? I'm thinking that the latter isn't ideal, as he's a FAR better winger than he is a centre; plus it might not do Tompkins' confidence much good if he's immediately dropped for a winger out of position.

Owen Watkins is fit again so he is most likely 13

I find Owen Watkin a bit of an underwhelming prospect at 13, unfortunately.  He’s had many games for Wales now but I struggle to think of a standout moment.  Tompkins had more good moments against Italy than I can remember Watkin having in his 20 caps.  OK Tompkins was not so good against Ireland but then collectively a lot of the team did not play well.  I’d persevere with Tompkins for now.  We need to develop depth in that position and you can’t do that unless you play players there.

Fair point. Though at the start of his career Watkins showed plenty of ability to make breaks as well as defend.

He conceded less tackles in the RWC than Tompkins did in his first start.

I want to see Tompkins succeed but I fear that him going back to Saracens while the squad are training over the next two weeks will hamper his chances.

He could well thrive against France with his attacking skills though.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but French players are allegedly super sensitive to overbearing bollixes chewing on their ovals about too many mistakes.  If Edwards overdoes the hairdryer he just might be found naked in Paris somewhere, tied to a post with tar and feathers on him.

Gotta be careful.  These French boys ain't timid, willing, obedient Welsh boys here - they got short fuses for being told what to do too often.  They might down tools completely if they are sulking bad enough.

I object to this TBH.

I fancy Wales to turn them over. The French will not travel well, yes they did England but it was the opening game. 2nd game vs Italy would have told them nothing.

Good luck Wales.

Rattez out with a broken leg.

France v Wale is all ways a good game, fast, exciting.

At home (Wales) would normally fancy Wales to win this. But after the last 2 games would have go with France, they playing great rugby and not making many mistakes either.

Would it be fair to suggest Wales best Italy more convincingly Madge?

Hopefully it's a high scoring game, Wales winning whilst scoring 5 tries to France's 4. That would give us some good momentum for the final two rounds. We really need a response from Wales. I'd certainly look at ways to increase the weight in the pack for Wales; something like Shingler at 6, Carre at 1. I'd probably pick Moriarty at 8 too.

Mr Bounce wrote:Do Wales continue with Tompkins at 13, or do they use North in the centre? I'm thinking that the latter isn't ideal, as he's a FAR better winger than he is a centre; plus it might not do Tompkins' confidence much good if he's immediately dropped for a winger out of position.

Based on the last few matches North is actually a FAR better 13 than winger. I think we may have seen the best of him on the wing already, unfortunately, as he probably has a 1/20 good game playing there. Even the North-apologists seem tired of defending him now. He plays 13 for me or not all... or he can go to bench if J-mac, RZ or Holmes start on the wing. I would also consider Liam Williams is he's back available, but wouldn't consider Watkin at all.

Rattez is injured and will probably be out for the end of the season. Bad news as he was our best back. On the other hand Penaud is likely to be fit and Chat should be back as well. Don’t expect other changes although I would like to see someone that can actually tackle instead of Thomas who is pretty useless in defence (and in balance being a good finisher just isn’t enough at this level). People criticised Raka but I think he should be given another shot.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but French players are allegedly super sensitive to overbearing bollixes chewing on their ovals about too many mistakes.  If Edwards overdoes the hairdryer he just might be found naked in Paris somewhere, tied to a post with tar and feathers on him.

Gotta be careful.  These French boys ain't timid, willing, obedient Welsh boys here - they got short fuses for being told what to do too often.  They might down tools completely if they are sulking bad enough.

I object to this TBH.

Have a beer or two and reconsider your position overnight.

#FinnRebel liked this post

Vakatawa, Penaud and Chat all back in the squad

I reckon Wales to win this one ...

I'm hoping we have a bit of a bounce from the loss v Ireland. It used to happen under Gatland, and as 'Fly alludes to this was often assumed to be as a result of Gatland and Edwards and the hairdryer treatment. Fear of f**king up again meant that the players were hell bent on repaying the faith shown in them and we'd turn out a good performance.

A lot of the sounds I'm hearing out of the Wales camp are that Pivac is a nice guy, chats with the players on their level, puts his arm around them, not so much an authoritarian coaching style and more democratic and casual. The obvious question is whether this will be as effective with the Welsh players as the Gatland/Edwards axis of evil? I wouldn't agree with Fly's assessment of the Welsh players as timid, willing and obedient - current players like AWJ, Liam Williams, Moriarty, Biggar, the spikey scrumhalves we always seem to have, previous players like Mike Phillips, Roberts, et al....... they just don't come across as weak and timid players (to me). But I get the point - will the difference in coaching style lead to players taking their foot off the gas? Will there be allowances made for poor performances that leads to lowering of standards across the board? Time will tell but it's certainly an interesting change in dynamic for us as fans.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but French players are allegedly super sensitive to overbearing bollixes chewing on their ovals about too many mistakes.  If Edwards overdoes the hairdryer he just might be found naked in Paris somewhere, tied to a post with tar and feathers on him.

Gotta be careful.  These French boys ain't timid, willing, obedient Welsh boys here - they got short fuses for being told what to do too often.  They might down tools completely if they are sulking bad enough.

I object to this TBH.

Have a beer or two and reconsider your position overnight.

Which of the current squad would you call timid?

I understand the gist of your post, but 'timid' is really not on.

Tough to call this one.
Wales seem to be almost in ‘the perfect storm’ with a change of style brought in by Pivac & co., the loss of Edwards & their defensive leader in JD2.
I think Biggar’s availability will be key to.
The Millenium factor may be enough to pull them through but if France click watch out.

Could be an entertaining one, this. Neither sides’ defence looked great in the last round of fixtures and both teams are looking to chuck it around a bit. Could be exciting!

You know how much this will mean to Shaun Edwards, coming back to Cardiff. France's defence will be more like it was first half against England than it was against Italy.

The question is whether they can defend like that for a full 80 minutes. It hasn't happened yet.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but French players are allegedly super sensitive to overbearing bollixes chewing on their ovals about too many mistakes.  If Edwards overdoes the hairdryer he just might be found naked in Paris somewhere, tied to a post with tar and feathers on him.

Gotta be careful.  These French boys ain't timid, willing, obedient Welsh boys here - they got short fuses for being told what to do too often.  They might down tools completely if they are sulking bad enough.

I object to this TBH.

Have a beer or two and reconsider your position overnight.

Which of the current squad would you call timid?

I understand the gist of your post, but 'timid' is really not on.

Maybe tone is my problem with some locals in here.  

Luckless, you're not meant to take it all so seriously.  It was a largely tongue-in-cheek comment Mostly if not exclusively directed at Englishman Edward's renowned hot tempered style mixing or not mixing with French players' renowned impatience with too much boring detail in tactics.  
The Welshness of the Welsh players had nothing to do with it.  I simply needed a narrative counterpoint to clarify how careful Edwards should be with renowned French free thinking/ill disciplined/laid back players.  
So I chose his last team, who played under him as dutiful professionals obedient to his training methods and philosophy.  I would as readily have used English or Irish players had his last job been with either side.

Now of course I could have said all that in such dull prose as above, but I choose to just colour up things a little mostly.  I like language.  I like toying with it and playing with it.  

Does that clear things up?

You don't need to say any more about it, Fly.

I love language too, but there's not much ambiguity to the word timid. 

The Oracle wrote:Could be an entertaining one, this.  Neither sides’ defence looked great in the last round of fixtures and both teams are looking to chuck it around a bit.  Could be exciting!

The plusses for France:

For now at least, they look more fluid and lethal in attack.
They have Edwards who will have a deep understanding of in-game thought processes of Welsh players.  Indeed, he might use such pre-knowledge to gain some advantages in goading them into certain behaviour.  For example perhaps France might mimic less attacking ambition at times during a game and goad Wales into looser attack only to be caught on ready counter attacks (and devastating and accurate turn of pace is something the French have been demonstrating) Italy were caught out too thinking the French had gone to sleep a few times.

The plusses for Wales:

They are at home.
If Edwards thinks he'll know their inner minds, they in turn will be familiar with his.  They'll perhaps be able to anticipate certain moves before they happen.
Experience and pragmatic smarts.  These Welsh players (many of them) have seen it all before.  They know all the different nuances in high level International games and how and when to pace it all to grab results or steal them.
Wales are a top notch International side and won't be caught by any surprises now that France has already shown its hand and template against England.  French surprise factor well and truly evaporated.

If we kick as poorly as we did in Dublin, it's not going to end well for us. France did make mistakes running the ball back against Italy, but there's still dangerous and I'm not confident our defence will be up to it. It's ropey enough from first phase, never mind in broken play.

Having said that, we did keep Italy out for 80 minutes... how much weight to give to the Round One performance, and how much to give to Round Two?

This game is already looking like a litmus test for Pivac.

The Ireland game was the aimless Scarlets of last season. He has a track record of long losing streaks. His job is now all about short turnarounds with few opportunities to get 'it' right.

Defence has to be massively improved. Attack needs more incision or at the very least more go forward to help the offloading. Breakdown needs tidying up particularly with a defensive turnover threat throughout the 80 minutes. Wales cannot go back to losing games simply because the set piece is useless and mistakes are enough to hand the opposition tries.

Okay, so everyone has said it and knows it automatically.  Gatland and Edwards were there so long that they brought this serenity and sense of reassurance to older and younger players alike.  Yes, a loss might come but a deeply glowering Gats in interview told you the story that he might be down but certainly not out.  His record proved it and subsequently players were reassured by it - 'Gats will turn us around and get us back uphill'.

So in a way, this IS a dangerous period now as guestalt alludes to.  Pivac kinda floated on the dying embers of Gatland's reign in the first game against Italy.  The Gats fumes were still in the tank.

The loss to Ireland isn't a disaster and Wales could still raise the trophy.  But the danger now is that a loss actually Increases Coaching input - forces coaches to more fully get involved in strategies.  And inevitably that input takes systems and tactics and training field emphasis even further away from the Gats/Edwards model to be replaced with even more of the personalities and philosophies of the newer coaches.  Soon enough, players forget the habits induced by their past coach.
Now Pivac might mould a system that works for him and the team but whatever it is, losses mean it's going to be more and more his personality guiding the team.  And there is the test - the test of whether a good club coach has the attributes to coach International.

It's only right that he's given time, but how long is it since Wales lost more matches than they won in a Six Nations tournament? That may not happen this season, of course, but it really wouldn't be a good way to start.

There are so many ways of assessing these two sides' performances so far. It's a fact that France have won two matches to Wales's one, and the manner of defeat to Ireland was potentially worrying, but another way of looking at things is that Wales hosted Italy and nilled them, whereas when France hosted Italy they conceded three tries. 

The cloud of a defeat has always been able overshadow the next match for supporters. It's vital that it doesn't do so for the players and coaching staff.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's only right that he's given time, but how long is it since Wales lost more matches than they won in a Six Nations tournament? That may not happen this season, of course, but it really wouldn't be a good way to start.

There are so many ways of assessing these two sides' performances so far. It's a fact that France have won two matches to Wales's one, and the manner of defeat to Ireland was potentially worrying, but another way of looking at things is that Wales hosted Italy and nilled them, whereas when France hosted Italy they conceded three tries. 

The cloud of a defeat has always been able overshadow the next match for supporters. It's vital that it doesn't do so for the players and coaching staff.

In a sense, nothing has changed. I would usually expect Wales to be strong at home and struggle away, even under the previous regime. I get that France played well against England, but I would back Wales at home against most teams (NZ aside). Before the tournament, I expected Wales to have three home wins, two away defeats. I didn't expect us to lose by a BP to Ireland tbh, but I guess we are in much more of a transition than them, so maybe it isn't that unexpected after all.

There were signs even in the Barbarians game too, that Wales can be defensively poor, so there is a cause for concern. Be interesting to see what Pivac does next week, especially in the outside backs and backrow.

#HaywardOut

Owen Watkin played a good game in the win over Ulster thus boosting our options at centre. Keiron a Williams also looked good for the y5 minutes he played at inside centre too. One for the future? Maybe not a big enough lump for international rugby, but many said that about a 19 year old Scott Gibbs and Jack Matthews too.

There’s talk of waiving the 60 cap rule in order to bring Priestland back in to the 6N squad. Think I’d prefer Sam Davies just out of principle. Apart from Priseltand potentially not being up to it I just thinking it would be a slap in the face for players who have taken a pay cut (probably) to stay at home and fight for a Wales place.

The Oracle wrote:There’s talk of waiving the 60 cap rule in order to bring Priestland back in to the 6N squad.  Think I’d prefer Sam Davies just out of principle.  Apart from Priseltand potentially not being up to it I just thinking it would be a slap in the face for players who have taken a pay cut (probably) to stay at home and fight for a Wales place.

....Plus the risk of 'off they go again' as you just can't just keep flouting rules selectively and expect players to accept that some individuals are more equal than others.

The Oracle wrote:There’s talk of waiving the 60 cap rule in order to bring Priestland back in to the 6N squad.  Think I’d prefer Sam Davies just out of principle.  Apart from Priseltand potentially not being up to it I just thinking it would be a slap in the face for players who have taken a pay cut (probably) to stay at home and fight for a Wales place.

Where was there talk of that? Scarlets fever by miaow?

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:There’s talk of waiving the 60 cap rule in order to bring Priestland back in to the 6N squad.  Think I’d prefer Sam Davies just out of principle.  Apart from Priseltand potentially not being up to it I just thinking it would be a slap in the face for players who have taken a pay cut (probably) to stay at home and fight for a Wales place.

Where was there talk of that? Scarlets fever by miaow?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-consider-shock-rhys-priestland-17756766

A few rugby journalists talking about it on Twitter too.

I would be very surprised if they did this. It would make Pivac a bit of a hypocrite too, when I’m sure he has discussed playing in Wales during this tournament too.

Yes and I also agree that RP isn’t up to it.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes and I also agree that RP isn’t up to it.

Depends what you want from your 10. Priestland has been good for Bath this season though it's as a very percentage based style of play with Burns either at 15 or introduced off the bench if they want more flair. I can't see that style of play suiting what Wales want to achieve under Pivac.