Eng V Ireland Sunday 23rd Feb 2020

First topic message reminder :


3pm at Twickers.
Ref: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France), Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France), TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)

England:: Daly; May, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), Joseph; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Underhill, Curry.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade.




Ireland: Ireland: Larmour; Conway, Henshaw, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Herring, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, O'Mahony, van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Porter, Toner, Doris, Cooney, Byrne, Earls.

Dirtydave wrote:Sam

Despite not agreeing with a late or no arm, there is definately a question to ask the TMO... I do think though that was a bit of a make up from not seeing the clear knock on by May out of the 9's hands...

Watch it again. It went backwards.

Yep, May rolled it backwards out of the scrum half’s hands (I did assume a knock-on real time though).

Late and no arms on May though afterwards.

I'm not sure reign...

The ball is knocked out of Cooneys hand, and then May makes 2 steps to pick it up...

Either way, my point was that the TMO could and should have checked the tackle

I assumed he checked and said it was fine. Those decisions almost never go the attacker's way for some reason.

It is a difficult thing to judge, all fans of either team argue to the death for their player being committed or hit after the ball...

Truth is, when being educated as a ref we are taught that there's a sweet spot between the ball leaving the foot and the tackler making contact. That spot is larger than you'd think, and a lot of the time refs judge it by defender body length...

A long body at balls contact with boot is usually committed, a shorter body, especially one that has feet on the floor, and can change direction usually get pinged.

No arms tackle on May, should have been a penalty all day long.

Dirtydave wrote:It is a difficult thing to judge, all fans of either team argue to the death for their player being committed or hit after the ball...

Truth is, when being educated as a ref we are taught that there's a sweet spot between the ball leaving the foot and the tackler making contact. That spot is larger than you'd think, and a lot of the time refs judge it by defender body length...

A long body at balls contact with boot is usually committed, a shorter body, especially one that has feet on the floor, and can change direction usually get pinged.

I gather you still have to wrap your arms, though.

Good win england, fair play

Rinsure

Not necessarily, there are a number of scenarios in which collisions without arms are deemed no offence.

At the very least it deserved to be checked. I wonder if the game had been closer that it would have been?

Which law allows a tackle without the use of arms then dave?

Some of the Ireland clear outs were very borderline today.

The Farrell/Stander incident was much ado about nothing. Farrell shouldn’t have been grabbing him and there was no real intent from Stander other than to get him off. Correct penalty to Ireland.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which law allows a tackle without the use of arms then dave?

The same one that allows a single player to use his arms to hold onto two players on the ground without the ball. The Dark Arts law.

Cyril

Probably. It definately wasn't late, but a proper look wouldn't have hurt the game at all. I just think Poite was feeling a bit empathetic to the potential knock on and situation.

7.5

The same ones that allow joining a maul in front of the ball carrier, the feed at the scrum being straight, 9's not being allowed to touch each other at the scrum, holding your body weight at the breakdown, the act of scoring legislation...

Lol

It's all open to human error, collisions happen all the times without arms, they aren't all illegal.

Ah so you're agreeing that it's illegal. Thanks dave thats cleared it up.

What's illegal?

Tackling without arms. I thought you were just having a pop at Poite earlier as well but turns out you dont know who he is.

Right result. Only one team on the pitch wanting to play rugby.

The other turned up for a few cheap shots.

Don't know who he is? I'm in a category with him lol

Tackling without arms is of course illegal, when was that ever up fr debate? I'm saying collisions can and do occur in the tackle all the time and aren't deemed illegal, this one was a bit of a meh incident, and it wasn't penalised.

It probably should have had a proper look, but it wasn't.

Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Please do look him up dave as this is getting more embarrassing for you.

Thought Peyper was poor for both teams. See Genges scrummaging and Henshaws late challenge. Stander could also have had a penalty reversed.

Look who up?

Your getting more and more non sensical...

Why do you do this? Just discuss the incident, and if you can't why bother commenting?

I'd look up poite if I was you and then question why you keep bringing him up. Maybe a trip to specsavers could help with this and the incorrect decisions we're trying to discuss.

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Had the same thought. What a pairing they'll be next year

BamBam wrote:

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Had the same thought. What a pairing they'll be next year

Both good players. Significantly lighter than their just-as-good SA opposition though.

BamBam wrote:

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Had the same thought. What a pairing they'll be next year

Lions coach Peyper might have something to say about that.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Had the same thought. What a pairing they'll be next year

Both good players. Significantly lighter than their just-as-good SA opposition though.

A few horseshoes in the under pants will take care of that.

Re. MoM. It could have been awarded to any of the England forwards. Lawes, though, was excellent. His body position taking the ball into the tackle is so much better now.

Itoje was also immense. The sheer nuisance factor and ability to strip the ball as well as being an all-round athlete is incredible. He’s also taken it upon himself to try and calm Genge down when his dander is up!

Cyril wrote:Re. MoM. It could have been awarded to any of the England forwards. Lawes, though, was excellent. His body position taking the ball into the tackle is so much better now.

Itoje was also immense. The sheer nuisance factor and ability to strip the ball as well as being an all-round athlete is incredible. He’s also taken it upon himself to try and calm Genge down when his dander is up!

Agree on all points, and kudos for the use of the word "dander"

Happy with Lawes at 6 now 7 1/2.

MotM performance in only 60 minutes.

Thought England's initial line out tactic or throw it to Lawes, then they won't think we will do it twice, three, four, five times on the trot was brilliant.

He played as well as I can remember. Still wouldn't be my choice as hes been shown up too many times. Even youngs and daly looked good today though!

How much does Genge need calming down? For all the agression he shows he's actually very controlled.

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Genge and Porter could have both been pinged at every scrum. Porter bound on Genge'd arm every time and Genge drove across under him onto the hooker. I'd argue that the binding on the arm happened before the angled drive each time but then I would.

Dirtydave wrote:What's illegal?

We're discussing Henshaw's attempted tackle on May as he kicks through. Whether it's late or not is open to interpretation but Henshaw never makes an attempt to wrap his arms and as such it's an illegal tackle. Could have been yellow as Henshaw was last man and May was through to score if Henshaw doesn't take him out.

It's not a "collision" it's very much an attempted tackle and as such the TMO should have helped out the referee.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Genge and Porter could have both been pinged at every scrum. Porter bound on Genge'd arm every time and Genge drove across under him onto the hooker. I'd argue that the binding on the arm happened before the angled drive each time but then I would.

Not sure about that. Found this screen grab on Twitter from the penalty I think. Although not sure about the other scrums. He did get pinged after the try for boring in though

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=503626&stc=1&d=1582478251

Dirtydave wrote:What's illegal?

A sick bird

Oof!

Northgrill wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Northgrill wrote:Good win by England. Thought Genge was lucky to win the penalty for the 3rd try, he was boring in. Thought James Ryan was very impressive for Ireland. Him and Itoje will make some second row for the Lions in the future.

Genge and Porter could have both been pinged at every scrum. Porter bound on Genge'd arm every time and Genge drove across under him onto the hooker. I'd argue that the binding on the arm happened before the angled drive each time but then I would.

Not sure about that. Found this screen grab on Twitter from the penalty I think. Although not sure about the other scrums. He did get pinged after the try for boring in though

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=503626&stc=1&d=1582478251

Ball isn't in at that point but you can see Porter's grip is already sliding up and Genge'd position isn't exactly in line with his hooker.

I'm sure Genge will have blamed his angle on Porter's bind and Porter will have blamed his poor binding on Genge'd angle but they are props after all.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Dirtydave wrote:What's illegal?

We're discussing Henshaw's attempted tackle on May as he kicks through. Whether it's late or not is open to interpretation but Henshaw never makes an attempt to wrap his arms and as such it's an illegal tackle. Could have been yellow as Henshaw was last man and May was through to score if Henshaw doesn't take him out.

It's not a "collision" it's very much an attempted tackle and as such the TMO should have helped out the referee.

Might also be worth comparing and contrasting May getting penalised for hitting stockdale about 0.02 seconds early following Ford's(?) kick

Just glad none of this affected the result

I'm not the only one that finds scrums increasingly boring then

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Happy with Lawes at 6 now 7 1/2.

MotM performance in only 60 minutes.

Thought England's initial line out tactic or throw it to Lawes, then they won't think we will do it twice, three, four, five times on the trot was brilliant.

Have to say Ireland hardly competing on England's throw middle of the pitch seemed a bit odd

carpet baboon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Happy with Lawes at 6 now 7 1/2.

MotM performance in only 60 minutes.

Thought England's initial line out tactic or throw it to Lawes, then they won't think we will do it twice, three, four, five times on the trot was brilliant.

Have to say Ireland hardly competing on England's throw middle of the pitch seemed a bit odd

I assume they were looking at who it was being chucked to and the make up of englands pack and taking away the maul option for England by being ready for it. Its far from the first time this has been seen in tests.Teams give away as many penalties contesting line outs as they get steals.

Just come back from hq. Good game in most parts. My take: farrell was being annoying and cj was doing what anyone of us would have done, may was taken out but a marginal call. Courtney and Sam underhill were excellent in different facets of the game. Cian healy going off let sinkler off the hook at scrum time. Sinkler's tackle was a classic seat belt challenge. Maro was actually holding on to both Irish players and stuff like that was unnecessary as Ireland were very blunt in attack and we defended very well. Peyper had a good game and has shot up in my estimates. Let's not descend into the sour grapes soccer mentality as the atmosphere was very cordial and if we start to run over every little detail then it gets a tad boring.

Yoda wrote:Just come back from hq. Good game in most parts. My take: farrell was being annoying and cj was doing what anyone of us would have done, may was taken out but a marginal call. Courtney and Sam underhill were excellent in different facets of the game. Cian healy going off let sinkler off the hook at scrum time. Sinkler's tackle was a classic seat belt challenge. Maro was actually holding on to both Irish players and stuff like that was unnecessary as Ireland were very blunt in attack and we defended very well. Peyper had a good game and has shot up in my estimates. Let's not descend into the sour grapes soccer mentality as the atmosphere was very cordial and if we start to run over every little detail then it gets a tad boring.

I'm amazed England didn't score more. Can't work out if was our defence or England's attack not quite working

carpet baboon wrote:I'm amazed England didn't score more. Can't work out if was our defence or England's attack not quite working

I think it was as much down to England's defence putting so much pressure on the Irish that they just imploded. I was genuinely shocked at how impotent the Irish pack were particularly in the first half, the English pack completely dominated them.

Hope that old guy in the crowd is OK after Ford’s try celebration!

carpet baboon wrote:

Yoda wrote:Just come back from hq. Good game in most parts. My take: farrell was being annoying and cj was doing what anyone of us would have done, may was taken out but a marginal call. Courtney and Sam underhill were excellent in different facets of the game. Cian healy going off let sinkler off the hook at scrum time. Sinkler's tackle was a classic seat belt challenge. Maro was actually holding on to both Irish players and stuff like that was unnecessary as Ireland were very blunt in attack and we defended very well. Peyper had a good game and has shot up in my estimates. Let's not descend into the sour grapes soccer mentality as the atmosphere was very cordial and if we start to run over every little detail then it gets a tad boring.

I'm amazed England didn't score more. Can't work out if was our defence or England's attack not quite working

I don't actually think Ireland defended badly at all imo England were just on it. Both teams can defend but England were winning more collisions. Ireland actually put some great shots on runners which did arrest our momentum. What Ireland lacked was the ability to change the point of attack. I don't think henshaw saw the ball until his try for example and not sure Ireland wingers got many touches either. Bungi aki was asked to do to much and tries to run through but me was well marshalled. I lost count how many times Ireland were caught behind the gain line because they didn't play what was in front of them.

On that point about Aki, I thought he was very good. Ireland’s best player in a poor team performance. Always looking for work and tackled well.

What has happened to Mc Clusky he is a big lump why is he not in the team.?

Also are England fans truly happy with Daily at full back?