6 Nations Round 4 - England v Ireland

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 28 Feb 2022, 4:34 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Ireland

Twickers, London
Saturday 12th March 2022
Kick Off - 1645hrs

England team

Ireland team

by nlpnlp Sat 05 Mar 2022, 10:59 pm

Unlucky for Mako and Saracen, but hardly affects Engand as he seems to be 5th/6th choice now.

by nlpnlp Sat 05 Mar 2022, 11:04 pm

The match odds are evens stevens for an England and Ireland win, which considering England are the home team is a pretty poor indictment of how England are playing right now.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 06 Mar 2022, 7:04 am

nlpnlp wrote:The match odds are evens stevens for an England and Ireland win, which considering England are the home team is a pretty poor indictment of how England are playing right now.

Pretty accurate reflection of how England are playing sadly.

by doctor_grey Sun 06 Mar 2022, 8:21 pm

Just read Dombrandt tested positive for Covid on Friday. Per the Telegraph, he might still be able to return to the squad on Wednesday, but one really never knows.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 5:21 am

Yeah might mean that Dombrandt misses out on a start after missing so much training. Big blow he's been one of our best players. Underhill returing so that's a boost. And Mitchell in the squad as Quirke has got concussion. Northmore too.

Rfu:
Update

Eddie Jones has named a 36-player England squad ahead of their Guinness Six Nations match against Ireland (Saturday 12 March, 4.45pm KO).
Sam Underhill, Nic Dolly and Alex Mitchell return to the squad for the first time since the 2021 Autumn Nations Series. Orlando Bailey and Luke Northmore are also named in the squad.
Alex Dombrandt tested positive for COVID on Friday 4 March. After recording a positive LFT in the morning, he immediately went into isolation and did not take part in training. A PCR test confirmed the positive result later that evening. He is expected to rejoin the squad later next week.
Raffi Quirke suffered concussion in Sale Sharks’ game against Exeter Chiefs and is unavailable for selection. Jonny Hill, who has been undertaking rehab on a low limb stress injury since he arrived into camp, has returned to his club Exeter Chiefs for the remainder of the tournament.
Forwards
Alfie Barbeary
Jamie Blamire
Ollie Chessum
Tom Curry
Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Backs
Orlando Bailey
Elliot Daly
George Ford
George Furbank
Ollie Hassell-Collins
Louis Lynagh (Harlequins, uncapped)
Max Malins
Joe Marchant
Alex Mitchell
Jack Nowell
Luke Northmore
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Ben Youngs

by Gooseberry Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:02 am

Underhill back is big news, but maybe too soon for this game? If Curry is still on the protocols and not passed I guess his stock rises dramatically but as a starter for such an intense test match with so little time on the pitch the last year is a huge ask.

Still no Tuilagi, so the whole "not playing him as a precaution" thing looks guff.

No surprises and its fair not to chop and change a new squad (outside injuries/returnees) to give them time together, but still hard to see where the cutting edge is going to come from. The releases to club later in the week will tell us a lot more and if hes going to really shake up the 23 or press on with the same model.

by lostinwales Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:10 am

No Hill for the rest of the 6N is also significant.

I am leaning towards the same kind of frantic, in parts very impressive but toothless where it matters performance we have seen over the last 3 games.

by Oakdene Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:17 am

I genuinely don't believe that Manu was ever in contention to face Wales.

by majesticimperialman Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:23 am

lostinwales wrote:No Hill for the rest of the 6N is also significant.

I am leaning towards the same kind of frantic, in parts very impressive but toothless where it matters performance we have seen over the last 3 games.

If it wins games why change it.

But in all honesty England's performance this 6nations as been terrible it needs to change for the good of English rugby.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:25 am

Oakdene wrote:I genuinely don't believe that Manu was ever in contention to face Wales.

Why?

by Oakdene Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:27 am

So if England do lose the next 2 games & both Scotland & Wales beat Italy this week & next, there is a danger that England could finish 5th, would that end result see Eddie leave or be forced to leave?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:27 am

Agree Gooseberry that'll it'll be much easier to call later in the week. Looking at that squad I would love to see both Lynagh and Hassell-Collins come in. Both massively inexperienced but I cannot say that I'd be confident that the more experienced options would play better than either. If they make a mistake so be it but if Lynagh gets it out wide and it looks on you know he will try to take the opportunity and not simply look to recycle.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:51 am

Oakdene wrote:So if England do lose the next 2 games & both Scotland & Wales beat Italy this week & next, there is a danger that England could finish 5th, would that end result see Eddie leave or be forced to leave?

Stuart Barnes apparently believes two further losses would see Jones out and Borthwick in. I suspect Jones bought himself some extra time with those Autumn victories, so don't think it's as clear cut.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 10:00 am

Barnes also wants England to play Cokansiga at 12.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 07 Mar 2022, 10:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barnes also wants England to play Cokansiga at 12.

Errrr.............. and how much experience has Cokansiga had playing at 12? Against Ireland as well, they would have a field day.

Slade who is a very experienced 13 has enough trouble playing there. Does Cokansiga know how to distribute, I can't remember seeing him pass a great deal, usually a steamroller over/through the opposition until he get s brought down.

by mountain man Mon 07 Mar 2022, 10:05 am

Even if England lose next two matches and do so badly I think unlikely Jones will leave/be sacked. He's committed to RWC 2023 so like it or not can't see a change until then especially at this late stage. I've been a supporter of him most of time but sometimes his selections, tactics and stupid comments make me wonder why.
However, no matter what anyone thinks of him he unquestionably knows more about coaching than anyone here.

by Margin_Walker Mon 07 Mar 2022, 10:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barnes also wants England to play Cokansiga at 12.

Barnes is an idiot.

It'll be like the time Brian Smith decided to try and convert Tagicakibau to 12 when he got a bit bigger late career. Was a complete failure. The wings never saw the ball and his point of difference was lost at 12 where there's a lot less space.

You need to be able to distribute the ball at least adequately at 12.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 10:30 am

Quite. Just throwing out there that Barnes is 1 of those 'journalists ' who likes a click bait sometimes. Not as bad as his Times' colleague but not the font of all knowledge.

by lostinwales Mon 07 Mar 2022, 10:56 am

Can't wait for the moment when someone brings a mirror on to the pitch and POM gets into a fight with himself.

by mikey_dragon Mon 07 Mar 2022, 11:21 am

Louis Lynagh commiting to England huh?

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 07 Mar 2022, 12:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Louis Lynagh commiting to England huh?

He's been in training squads before, without making the matchday 23. As we know from other players, that's no guarantee he'll stay committed to England if he isn't capped.

by Recwatcher16 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 12:58 pm

Talking of committing to England, articles in the press today about Farrell snr. auditioning for the England role, post world cup, if his Irish team does well this weekend. The RFU have been pretty explicit in wanting an English coach next time and there is no discernable succession plan with EJ, which would suggest other plans - unless of course the RFU haven't got round to planning yet.....

I would be sorely tempted to wager a Farrell/Edwards combo at Twickenham in 2024....the appeal of an offer to both of these Wigan boys would be too great.

by Gooseberry Mon 07 Mar 2022, 1:25 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Louis Lynagh commiting to England huh?
He's been in training squads before, without making the matchday 23. As we know from other players, that's no guarantee he'll stay committed to England if he isn't capped.

Anything to avoid the embarrassment of getting picked by Italy!

Australia generally avoid picking new NH based players except as cover during the AIs.

So more likely a case of England needing to commit to him than vice versa but yet again....why dont we have an A side?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 1:38 pm

I'm just frustrated that we haven't as yet given one of these 3 young wingers a run of games to see how they go. Malins has had that despite being, frankly, poor.

by mountain man Mon 07 Mar 2022, 1:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm just frustrated that we haven't as yet given one of these 3 young wingers a run of games to see how they go. Malins has had that despite being, frankly, poor.

Malins was OK against Wales but he doesn't have out and out wing gas. Think he's a better 15 than wing but can't see Steward going anywhere.
I agree though, time to give someone esle a shot. Nowell was poor against Wales, lookd off the pace and missed several tackles.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Mar 2022, 2:01 pm

Malins looks pretty secure against the high ball, decent in defence. I fail to see where the comment from Jones about special players doing things that can't be taught applies to him. You can teach positioning sense and wing play and I fail to see it from him. I don't really get the gas thing either. He's quick, from viewing games I'd bet he's quicker than Lynagh but he doesn't know how to play the position to the best of his ability.

by mountain man Mon 07 Mar 2022, 2:08 pm

Well fair enough about Malins pace but as we don't have access to numbers(unless someone has) it's just an impression that he's quick but not that quick. I rate him but don't think wing is his best position but then again I wouldn't swop Steward at 15 for him there.
However, I rather suspect we'll see Malins and Nowell on wings again this week. Maybe OHC/Lynagh gets a bench spot.

by Gooseberry Mon 07 Mar 2022, 2:09 pm

Its hard to see where the challenge to Daly Nowell Malins and Marchant comes from in that squad. None of them wouldve upset too many people to be left out, but the players who would be a quick fix arent fit. England a just a bit limp on the outside backs currently. Its not even like Slade at 13 has a stellar record of breathtaking attacking at test level. And Tuilagi would probably be at 12.

May and Cokasinga could be a tasty pair on the wings when/if they get back to full fitness and form, but thats not going to happen this tournament.

by Poorfour Mon 07 Mar 2022, 7:19 pm

Rugbypass is reporting that Dombrandt and Underhill will be given a chance to prove their fitness for selection - Underhill gets the week, Dombrandt will have to show that he's ok in cardio terms (and testing negative) on Thursday

by lostinwales Mon 07 Mar 2022, 8:22 pm

Lynagh out with Covid

by doctor_grey Mon 07 Mar 2022, 9:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:Lynagh out with Covid

Was he snogging Dombrandt?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 9:43 am

Shame about Lynagh. We will have at least one of the part time wingers then.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 12:22 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Talking of committing to England, articles in the press today about Farrell snr. auditioning for the England role, post world cup, if his Irish team does well this weekend. The RFU have been pretty explicit in wanting an English coach next time and there is no discernable succession plan with EJ, which would suggest other plans - unless of course the RFU haven't got round to planning yet.....

I would be sorely tempted to wager a Farrell/Edwards combo at Twickenham in 2024....the appeal of an offer to both of these Wigan boys would be too great.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 12:22 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Talking of committing to England, articles in the press today about Farrell snr. auditioning for the England role, post world cup, if his Irish team does well this weekend. The RFU have been pretty explicit in wanting an English coach next time and there is no discernable succession plan with EJ, which would suggest other plans - unless of course the RFU haven't got round to planning yet.....

I would be sorely tempted to wager a Farrell/Edwards combo at Twickenham in 2024....the appeal of an offer to both of these Wigan boys would be too great.

Yes please...well Edwards...

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 12:26 pm

I think England are quite a few players away from me thinking they could win a WC next year....even make the final.

And of those who "COULD" be the ones missing they are all generally a "lets see how they develope the next 12 months"

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 12:29 pm

Who are the ones you think are good enough?

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 1:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who are the ones you think are good enough?

Ok roughly....

1 Genge / Marler (and youngsters generally coming through well also)
2 LCD / George
3 Dont rate any of them including Sinckler. Praying that Hayes comes through plus a few other kids to materialize.
4 Maro Itoje
5 Most options average, Jury is still out on a couple...Hill, Isiekwe. Stuck with these until post WC when the next batch come through or Chessum Snr takes over next season.
6 Lawes had some very good games, but hes still not a 6 IMO. Underhill seems a real worry with his concussions. Waiting for Martin to make that spot his or Jack Willis to stay injury free.
7 Tom Curry
8 Dombrandt - Actually played well...especially in the real nitty gritty tight, which people suggested he wasnt comfortable doing.

9 Think we generally has some hope here. Randall has sped up the passing, Quirke if he stays fit can offer alot, etc, I rate Mitchell,
10 Smith, Ford...plenty of kids - Lots of hope.
11 Nowell - Also been good and yet we've never had a consistent run of the best of him . Need and actual quality young winger in now.
12 Where to start. Hopefully one of Ojomoh, Kelly, Atkinson, Hartley, Lawrence etc etc...can come through.
13 Slade, divides opinon and if there was better options he might not be there..., but on his day is a solid defensive leader and can act as the second playmaker. Just dont see his BEST enough.
14 Malins is just not doing it. Bring in a proper winger....
15 Steward is making that his own, but Hodge is starting to come through nicely as is a few others to keep Freddie on his toes.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 1:17 pm

Nice, you not reckon some of the injuries would contribute?

I do rate Sinckler and haven't seen him go down in my estimations since the last WC final. The throw in the likes of Launchbury, May, Watson, Farrell Tuilagi. Any of the 9s are a step up from the previous final.

I've been impressed by our forwards tbh and thats where I think it's make or break, Ireland and France will be interesting to see if they carry on that form.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 1:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice, you not reckon some of the injuries would contribute?

I do rate Sinckler and haven't seen him go down in my estimations since the last WC final. The throw in the likes of Launchbury, May, Watson, Farrell Tuilagi. Any of the 9s are a step up from the previous final.

I've been impressed by our forwards tbh and thats where I think it's make or break, Ireland and France will be interesting to see if they carry on that form.

Yes injuries have been not helpful...Watson etc. But when you have so many options why go for Malins for etc.

Farrell...like Marmite. Some like him...most dont.
Tuilagi....please can we just forget the bloke. Hes done.
Launchbury could be a short stop to the World Cup.

Im not sure many of the BIG injury players are going to massively enhance the side. Jack Willis was a BIG blow though in my opinion, and Underhills constant injury misses.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 2:01 pm

We'll forget about Tuilagi the second he retires! Fair enough then. Think the core of the last side is still there with a few of the younger players better. We'll see anyway. I'd certainly like to win every game from now until the WC before I start properly thinking of it anyway. Wins give confidence, just look at Ireland 21 vs 22.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 3:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll forget about Tuilagi the second he retires! Fair enough then. Think the core of the last side is still there with a few of the younger players better. We'll see anyway. I'd certainly like to win every game from now until the WC before I start properly thinking of it anyway. Wins give confidence, just look at Ireland 21 vs 22.

Ah i would simply forget about the lad now. Sadly his inclusions now just cause more disruptions as he invariably drops out injured.

I expect Farrell will be back in the squad for the Aussie summer tour if he is fit. Though id rather jones looked at one of the kids for the 12 position.

by mountain man Tue 08 Mar 2022, 3:16 pm

I agree about Manu, unless he can prove consistent fitness it's time England moved on sadly. Last two years I've been critical of Farrell, his form was poor yet he was automatic pick. Now though given the apparent lack of selectable 12s I'd welcome him back with open arms.
So, that's the 12 sorted. Now just need to find some decent wings...

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 3:51 pm

Stupidity ignoring world class players though. One of those who got us to a world cup final of course.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 3:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stupidity ignoring world class players though. One of those who got us to a world cup final of course.

Not ignoring world class players....remembering how often they are broken.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 3:58 pm

And thus ignoring them though. Same argument as before, if we have someone as good fair enough. But I don't think many teams do and we don't.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 4:12 pm

If we take the 6n....Id rather have a decent international 12 who can play 5 games and who can do a proper workmanlike job for the team, than a world class superstar who can play in one game.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 4:16 pm

Ah fair enough then. I always think we play better with Tuilagi.

by Geordie Tue 08 Mar 2022, 4:20 pm

I agree....BUT HE NEVER PLAYS!!!!

by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Mar 2022, 4:25 pm

And when he does. Well we get to world cup finals. But yes having workmanlike players Slade are the way forward.

by doctor_grey Tue 08 Mar 2022, 6:05 pm

I bet Tuilagi has one more good run in him, and no doubts England are better with a healthy Tuilagi. But I don't think the coaches can create an attacking scheme around a player who has not aged well and played that much in the past few years. Perhaps as that impact player off the bench so that if unavailable it doesn't cause a hole in the game plan.

As I have said before, my suggestion for him is to take 6 months to a year and get really healthy, relax and soften the tightly strung muscles. Then maybe he can come back for a fantastic swan song.

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